tv The Mc Laughlin Group CBS February 28, 2016 11:30am-12:00pm EST
>> from washington, the mclaughlin group. the american original. for over three decades the sharpest minds, best sources, hardest talk. >> issue one. flip of a peace coin. >> i would love to do something with regard to negotiating peace finally for israel. and for their neighbors. and i can't do that as well as a negotiator. i cannot do that as well if i'm taking big, big sides. >> moving toward a two-state solution, trying to provide more support for the aspirations of the palestinian people is in the long term best interests of israel. >> palestinians in the gaza
kurds in northern iraq and northern syria want independent nations. but both palestinian and kurdish political groups are often treated as extremists by those proximate to them, namely and respectively the israeli and turkish government. and while the gop and democratic front-runners to replace president obama are saying they'll be more favorable to the palestinians, the kurds are increasingly ignored. syria it seems is just too complicated. are trump and hillary in sync? pat? >> i think on the west bank, john, they probably agree. frankly, i agree with donald trump on this. he said he is very strongly pro israel but if you're going to get into a negotiation between the israelis and the palestinians, palestinians are going to have to give up the right to return to what is now israel.
agree to an entity, a palestinian entity in jerusalem. both sides have to make concessions to get any kind of deal. while you may be pro israel and back israel, if you're going to be an honest broker you have to push both sides to make concessions. so i think what trump said is not the popular thing. it's not the political thing. it's not going to make him any gains but it is the only way you're going to get a deal though frankly after i think tried. i think a deal is pretty much receding because there are 6 oo,000 israelis in east jerusalem and on the west bank and netanyahu is not going to pull up the settlements he put down. >> eleanor? >> well, actually, what trump said is stated u.s. policy over many decades from both republican and democratic presidents that we basically are an honest broker trying to bring about this two-state solution. prime minister netanyahu has basically given some lip
solution but doesn't seem real eager to go along with it but if you want to talk about the kurds there are 30 million or 35 million kurds, the largest ethnic group that does not have their own homeland. and one of the reasons why the u.s. isn't weighing in on heavily on their side is because turkey is a nato ally and turkey is fiercely opposed to any recognition of the kurds they basically considered the kurds on their border terrorists. so that's not going anywhere in terms of getting them a homeland. >> you heard eleanor. >> why is there less concern for the kurds than for the palestinians? >> well, i think at the moment the reason the palestinians are much more in the news is because of donald trump quite surprisingly on the republican side saying that. look. i agree with eleanor and pat broadly. u.s. long standing policy has been opposition to settlement construction in the west bank. parts of the west bank in a final status deal will remain israeli with associated swaps. but it is not something that is helpful to the peace process
democrats for a long time, president bush, were right to condemn that and republicans should condemn it. so i give trump the only credit he'll ever get from me. when we're talking about the kurds specifically, look, in northern iraq in kurds stan the kurds essentially have a day facto autonomous state. what they want and will eventually have in syria i suspect and even assad would grant that. that's why you see some assad. it's the same kind of thing. the key i think for the united states there is to push him into a position where he feels some consolidation and u.s. support against the p.k.k. terrorist group but at the same time doesn't blur the lines as russia and assad do with the sunni rebel groups and that there is a compromise, which has happened before with some of the other kurds. >> when did the u.s. first back kurdish rebels with arms and supplies? >> when it became apparent they were the best chance we had to have an organized force against
it's a difficult situation now with the kurds because they are an effective ally of ours. erragon is just furious we are lied with the kurds even though the practical reasons are very obvious from our point of view. >> on the other hand -- >> it goes back to 1970 when henry kissinger and the americans gave the kurds weapons in order to fight the iraqis to force them to deal with the shah of iron and when the shah got what he wanted then the kurds were abandoned and the kurds were slaughtered and massacred. the kurds have a saying that the kurds have no friends except the mountains. let me say this. the kurds in turkey, eleanor is you got about 35 million of them with no state. but if they get a state this is why the turks are so frightened. if they get a state it can only be brought about eventually by amputations of four countries. iran, iraq, syria, and especially turkey where there are 15 million and it ain't
if it does happen, there's going to be a bloody war and the united states will have to intervene to save the kurds. using the word "amputation" does make it sound pretty improbable but there are, they live in all those areas. >> those countries. >> you're looking at the whole middle east kind of in turmoil and breaking up anyway so i don't think that's out of the question. >> i think syria and iraq, i think there will be -- that you can have the autonomous -- >> a magnet on the turks. >> and i think a future turkish government perhaps -- you at least want to push it but the turks would accept a kurdish government on their border that was not p.k.k. >> that guy that is not playing with a full deck hasaan army of 3,000 tanks and 500,000 men. >> and the united states is
>> if you are so familiar with kissinger how did he rationalize cutting aid to the kurds after promising to help their fight for independence? >> because the state as cold monster including the united states of america. we've done that before. we push people to fight and then we get tired. you might talk to the south vietnamese who were in the south china sea, all those boat people. >> saddam hussein gassed the kurds and president george h.w. bush allegedly was coming to their rescue and created a no fly zone, encouraged them to rebel, then walked away from it. so they've been let down by the u.s. a number of times. >> they have no friends. >> like in south iraq after that first war. >> you are absolutely right. first gulf war. they rose up. we told them to. they got slaughtered and lost 50,000 dead. we did nothing. i will say george h.w. bush did send some americans into northern iraq to say in effect hands off the kurds. can't do to them what did you to the shia. >> this is somewhat of a
the more urgent crisis is really all of the bloodshed in syria. they have a tentative cessation of hostility. we should all hope that takes. >> one important thing in all the complexity is there are divergent political groups right? the shia, the school of espionage after in iraq then the school of common iran and the school of najaf, there are interplays you can actually use, you can force compromise and say american power, hey, we'll side with you. do this. america with nato. it's complicated but do-able. >> the truth is american powerball is receding and certainly under obama and i don't disgrea entirely he says, look. it's a horrible mess in syria. we're not going to put american forces in there. i think most americans fundamentally do not want to get involved in these wars. trump is playing on that. cruz is playing on that. rand paul played on that. >> and somebody should have donald trump, ask donald trump
whether he would get more engaged in syria or less engaged. the status quo is not going to work. frankly i don't know which way he would go. he has a lot of bella coast rhetoric but basically doesn't seem that interested in getting involved in overseas engagements. >> who is anxious and enthusiastic about sending another american army into afghanistan, libya, iraq, or yemen or all of these places. why? i mean, they are horrible messes and we ought to try and resolve it and stop the wars but nobody wants an american army in there. >> a lot of hand wringing going on among the republican candidates. they all criticized obama's action but none of them want american troops in there either. >> when trump does speak so does cruz. don't get involved there. >> a good question. will the dream of kurdish independence ever be realized? pat? >> there's not going to be a single kurdish state.
sections of syria and iraq, right now the turks are really cracking down on the kurds in the southeastern quadrant of the country. >> i think eventually it will be codified what they basically already have. >> yes. i think basically what pat said. semiautonomous. >> what you won't see though is part of turkey being part of kurds stan because that is the main thing that turkey does not want that to happen. and as long as the status quo exists you're going to have kurds stan, theoretical kurds stan divided between turkey and every place else. >> what i show here is given deteriorating events in the middle east, redrawing of boundaries and political jurisdictions is more probable now than ever before. does that float your boat? >> that floats pretty well. >> i think it makes sense as
[speaking in other language] >> speaking at the vatican last sunday pope francis called for a global ban on the death penalty. capital punishment is the pontiff says a breach of the biblical commandment thou shalt not murder. and in no small part the pope's words are aimed at the united states. today nearly 3,000 prisoners remain on u.s. death row, but the catholic death penalty debate is nothing new. 14 years ago this month patrick j. buchanan defended his fellow catholic just to see supreme court judge antonin scalia or the justice' support for capital punishment mr. buchanan asserted, "the death penalty has been supported by the catholic church since the first pentecost." so, pat, who was right,
>> well, the pope is speaking not -- he is giving his opinion. several previous popes have opposed the death penalty. vatican city had the death penalty up until 1969. >> what is this ex- -- business. >> when the pope speaks -- he is giving you his political opinion and moral opinion on what is right. the catholics do not have to, they're obligated to respect what he says but not to follow it. now, john, look. the death penalty, you take the inquisition, a number of folks died under the inquisition. and the death -- the fifth commandment says thou shalt not murder. murder is the killing of the innocent. nobody, and that's right. nobody recommends the killing of the innocent. but you take a person like charles manson or some of these killers today that murder all these children and things, i think it remains the proper punishment. it is up to the state to decide. it is up to the individual states to decide and nations to decide. i think scalia was right. although my guess was what scalia did was basically say
decide this and that nobody can outlaw it at the federal level. >> a number of people have been sent to their death wrongly and we have -- we've had some people on death row and it's been discovered through d.n.a. evidence years later that they were innocent. so you're not always a hundred percent certain you're sending the "right person" to their death. as long as i've been politically aware, the catholic church has been opposed to capital punishment and i think that's the moral position. in fact, i had some good catholic friends who opposed abortion and felt that it was logically consistent to also oppose capital punishment. and throughout this country it is difficult to get pharmaceutical companies to even make the mixture to kill people. the states are bailing out of this. it's costly. they have years of appeals on death row. so i think the capital
time has long gone. >> my opinion, look. i think i agree with pat. i was reading some of the death penalty cases. there are stames so abornt. president obama said this. there are some crimes that are so grotesque, such an insult to the nature of society that all of us would actually call a kind of natural human law or natural law depending on our perspective but one the specifics i look to, where children are involved, with aggravating factors, without going into the details, and then murder that is where i think the death penalty has a smaller role to play. it should be more restricted than perhaps it has been in the past, more forensic evidence, rightful appeals but it is very expensive but in some cases should be on the books for a jury to decide. >> how long did the inquisition last? >> 300 years. spanish inquisition? which one? they were all -- >> inquisition. >> i would say 300 years.
thomas as you know, john, a dominican, wasn't he? >> yeah. 600-year-long inquisitions plural. gregory ix created the inquisition in 1231 to deal with a heresy. historians rate the death toll at 5,000 on the low end and, get this, 600,000 on the high end. >> i've never seen that. >> the pope, wait a minute, has the pope specifically advocated the death penalty? >> i don't know, john, but i do know cardinal joseph bernadine, the late cardinal bernadine in chicago used to speak of the seamless garment meaning that you respect life at the beginning and at the end. and thus he was opposed to
i thought that was important. >> an unborn child is totally innocent. and you are killing, when you kill someone like that, and charlie manson is not totally innocent. >> what about loving -- >> let's say an infant is innocent and there is a difference between killing an innocent person and executing charlie totally innocent. and you are killing, when you kill someone like that, and charlie manson is not manson. is there not? >> yes. >> there is also a difference between charlie manson and a lot of these innocence project people, prisoners who have been released from death row because of faulty convictions. we have a lot of those. that as good reason right there. >> who they're going to send to death, the death guard, and they discovered he was never even there. >> i thought church doctrine was you hate the sin but you love the sinner. isn't that what religion preaches people to believe? >> you can purge your soul --. >> right. kill the sinner because you hate the sin. >> well, if that's what you believe, then bear in mind that pope innocent iii among others advocated the death penalty
attempts to construe a personal view of god which conflicts with the church dogma must be burned without pity." >> john, the popes preached the cruise said which resulted in many, many deaths of muslims and others. they preached wars. and in wars people get killed and there's collateral damage where innocent people unintentionally get killed. i do agree you ought to, if there is any doubt about the guilt of an individual, if i were a governor, any doubt, i would say switch it to life in prison. >> i think when we're talking about the inquisition we're talking about the crusades, the central reality, we're talking about jerusalem, israel. all these under currents, theological struggles over centuries and centuries to some degree have relevance today. where do we focus? i would say the key thing at the moment is you try and forge consensus where you can. we're talking about the turks and the kurds but you also identify those people on the
the key here is really people like isis, jihadists -- >> well. >> exactly and if you identify the unique tenets -- >> how many states have the death penalty? >> about half. >> about half i think. >> i would say 20 to 25. >> yes. >> even more importantly --. >> and they rarely exercise --. >> you have to give the answer. >> you came on the set without -- >> are you googling that? >> the failed inquiz itor. >> states that have the death penalty have been executing fewer and fewer so it is harder to keep count because a lot of states haven't executed anybody expensive and impractical for a lot of different reasons. >> 94 countries have the death penalty. of those seven allow only for crimes against humanity such as
>> that guy killed 74 kids and they gave him 22 years or something. this is insane. >> that's as much as their law allows. they have so few homicides. >> that is one area where i think american liberals who have advocated against the death penalty are actually much more persuasive on paper than liberals in europe because liberals in europe have to look at that. people google ian hugly who murdered two 10-year-old school girls in the uk and is in a 40-year term. >> before we criticize norway why don't we look at their track record in terms of vainlt crime. they're probably doing pretty well. i think --.
predictions. >> predictions pat >> the ides of march, march 15 we will know exactly who the nominees for both parties are and it will be donald trump and hillary rodham clinton. >> eleanor? >> it is not too soon to predict the democrats will take back the senate on the strength of the republican obstructionism to the president's supreme court appointment and how it will affect seven republicans running in swing states, states that barack obama carried.
retain his exceptional hearing and also in the coming weeks the islamic state threats with chemical weapons will become much more on the radar including terrorism plots in europe. >> i predict a rare bipartisan consensus is building for legislation in regard to how the government can prosecute using data from cell phones as with the current apple case and expect legislation also next year. >> i predict as warm weather returns to europe, so will the flood of middle eastern immigrants. the resulting border chaos will be a vivid illustration of the impotence of the eu and give a huge boost to proponents of britain's exit. i also have a forced -- fourth prediction. chris christie's endorsement to trump will be a big win for him on super tuesday. but trump that is. yes or no? pat? >> trump is going to sweep 10
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