tv Charlie Rose WHUT June 18, 2012 11:00pm-12:00am EDT
>> rose: welcome to the program, tonight, the election with david ignatius of the "washington post" and fouad ajami of the hoover institution. cairo is not egypt and egypt is not cairo and the forces represented in tahrir square, the forces that foreigners-- i don't want to pick on anyone go and meet and say these are the people we need in cairo, they did not carry the day. they did not carry the day and this is the truth of it. >> rose: also the new barnes museum in philadelphia. we talk to the architects tod williams and billie tsein >> they did say that two
important parts of the commission, to replicate the hangings which are the ensembles that are devised showing relationships between paintings and that we needed to also keep the sequence of galleries intact. so those were two kuwait power requests, sort of thinking how do you make a building that is of its time when it's holding these pieces that are put together in this specific way 50 years ago. >> rose: we conclude this evening with peter piot. his new book is called "no time to lose: a life in pursuit of deadly viruses." >> first thing is a chameleon is always... you know, it doesn't move. so stick to your goal. have a long-term two, who what are the eyes of the chameleon? they go around and scan the environment. so good intelligence is absolutely essential. and thirdly changes color.
captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: egypt's ruling military council confirmed today its pledge to transfer power to the new president by the end of june. although official results have not yet been announced, it appears mohammed morsi of the muslim brotherhood will become president. the brotherhood released a tally which showed him with a narrow lead over hosni mubarak's former prime minister achmed shafiq. however, thegñ3 military councl issued an interim constitution giving the generals sweeping powers. joining me from washington david ignatius of the "washington post." here in new york, knew wad ajami of the hoover institution.
his later book is called "the syrian rebellion." let me begin in washington with david ignatius. david, where do you think egypt is tonight? >> well, egypt has had what amounts to... what is a military coupe with the intervention of the military and then this bizarre court ruling that did solved parliament. when you look at this today you can say that egypt is where turkey was several years ago when you had a strong turkish military intervening in politics claiming to be defending the turkish state and constitution. as we know, that story ended up heading in a positive direction as democracy increasingly took root in turkey and you had the election of a muslim democratic party that still seems to be both muslim and democratic. my friends in egypt who i saw
last week when i was there looked at the approaching election with a sense of dread. i have to be honest my friends are mostly secular, they're political liberals, journalists and they thought the choice that egypt was facing in this final round between mohammed morsi, the candidate of the muslim brotherhood and ahmed shafiq, a former air force general who was clearly the candidate of the old regime was a sterile choice, the common wisecrack was it was a choice between cholera and the plague. you can argue something even worse happened in that the military intervened in effect suspending what few games there'd been for a new kind of order in egypt. as with anything in the this period of change in the arab world, i have to remind myself we can't predict where it's going. it's likely president morsi will take power. how much power will he have? how will the election of a new parliament go?
will that be a representative particlement. these are all question marks and we're just making guesses about what the2eá the answers are. >> rose: fouad, where is egypt? >> well, look, there was a signal day in egyptian history on august 3 when hosni mubarak came to court and made the following... and uttered the following words where he said "sir, i am present." he said to the judge. that was a seminal day in egypt. so with all the things that happened in egypt, with all the disappointment, with all the arguments that this revolution... that tahrir square didn't really get its way, that neither of the two contenders for the presidency came out of tahrir square the fact is when you think of this country with the despotic tradition beginning to find its way into politics there is hope for the egyptians and i wouldn't want to sit in their judgment so early. i'm a student of egyptian political history, i'm a student of egyptian political culture, fiction, cinema, you name it.
that is great... this is the great arab society and i think i've... we've watched the kind of roller coaster ride since the resignation of mubarak. there have been heart break but there's also been enormous fulfillment. >> rose: where does it go now? what will the military do? >> well, charlie, if you look at what has happened now, if you... what you see now in egypt is almost a return to a point in egyptian history in 18952/'53 with the coup d'etat came into power. the two forces that were on the ground then after the destruction of the monarch eye were actually, guess what? they were the monarch... they were the army and the muslim brotherhood. we return now to the army and to the muslim brotherhood. this is really... these are the two most viable forces in the country. are there secular forces in the country? absolutely. are there liberal forces in the country? absolutely. were they skilled in the way they played the games in tahrir
square? not at all. why did they run at the end when you look at the vote totals of the three candidates of the five candidates, if you will, for presidency, the finalists, the votes of the three candidates who lost were higher and much larger than the votes of shafiq and mohammed morsi. so in the end you end up with what the egyptians call the remnants. the remnants of the old regime and the muslim brotherhood. >> rose: david, you were recently in egypt and talked to one of the more powerful members of the muslim brotherhood who some give... designate as the most powerful influence on where they are. what did he tell you? >> charlie, on tuesday of last week i talked to a man who is a businessman who was originally to be the muslim brotherhood's lead candidate in the elections then he was disqualified from running by the constitutional court but he's still a very active guide, strategist for the
muslim brotherhood and i think he'll be crucial. he said a number of interesting things in light of what's happened. first, he made a very explicit and somewhat chilling warning that if shafiq, the candidate of the old guard, won in last weekend's runoff, that there would be blood in the streets. that the egyptian people would never stand for it, that there would be... he said at one point this revolution won't be as peaceful as the last one meaning this is really going to be a violent uprising. well, with the victory of morsi you don't have that prospect quite so obvious. in terms of the policies that the muslim brotherhood will follow, president morsi, as their representative will follow assuming he's aallowed to be president, they offer pretty conciliatory agenda. they talk about reaching out to
a range of parties. they talk about calling a conference this fall of all the range of experts who can helped a vise on where egypt's economy should go. they know8ñ that the job one fr any government now is to try to get the economy moving. the egyptian economy is at a standstill. they've got to get people back to work. they've got to get foreign investment flowing back in. they understand that. they need to talk to investment bankers, the i.m.f., you name it. interestingly, whenño u.s. official what outcome the u.s. regarded as preferable i didn't get a direct answer to that but the official did say in terms of the egyptian economy it probably would be best if the muslim brotherhood candidate, morsi, won. he's now won, he now presumably will make an appeal for help and we'll see where that goes. >> what do you think is the understanding of the muslim brotherhood from around thel world and what is the reality of who they are? >> well, charlie, in fact,
what's interesting about the muslim brotherhood is the founder of the brotherhood was a cunning chameleon so when you look at the muslim brotherhood and muslim brotherhood in both egypt and elsewhere, do they want islamic sflul what do they mean by islamic rule? many of them are engineers, doctors, businessmen. the elements of the muslim brotherhood are the elements of what we call civil society. so the muslim brotherhood talks about a just islamic rule but in the end they have to make this... particularly in egypt they have to make this country run. egypt is the world's number-one top importer of wheat. they have to feed the country. they have to run the country. and they know that it's a very, very tough mission. what's interesting about the brotherhood and it's hard to prove in the retrospect given what's happened, they didn't want to contest the presidency. had the secularist in the parliamentary elections shown enough force, had they shown enough weight, had they gotten enough votes, the brotherhood was perfectly happy with controlling the cabinet and
leaving the presidency on the table for the seculars, for the liberals in the country. and given the miserableáe$cj& performance of the liberals in the parliamentary election, the brotherhood decided to go for it all. and the brotherhood knows also that they have to deliver. i'll give you one example. in the parliamentary election, the brotherhood had 42% of the vote. in the presidential election, that vote total for mohammed morsi went down to 24%. so i think brotherhood is clued in. they understand that egypt wants performance from whoever is in power. and i think the rules of engagement between the brotherhood and the military would be very interesting. the brotherhood from the very beginning always wan)zt a coalitkon with the military. it was always willing to sell out and trade the guys in tahrir square. they were not... they didn't feel that the people in tahrir square were really their type. >> rose: and in the beginning they did not rush in to join it. >> they didn't want them.
they didn't want them. >> rose: so where are we in terms of tahrir square? you mentioned that mubarak was on trial. he said "sir, i'm present," that that designated that something had happened, that a revolution had happened in egypt. so where is the revolution today? >> the revolution has taken on, of course, an islamic coloring. this is pretty much what's happening... >> rose: so the muslim brotherhood has kidnapped the revolution? >> i don't think so. >> rose: it's morphed into the muslim brotherhood? >> let me answer it this way, you spent a lot of time dealing with the iranians. you covered the iranian revolution, the aftermath of the iranian revolution and you've probably talked to more iranian officials than anyone in our country. what's interesting about them, of course, now, the iranian liberals always lament that the revolution was hijacked. somehow or another they make it seem as=lj though the communist, if you will, were illegitimate. and the same thing the people in
tahrir square are lamenting, that the two top candidates didn't come from tahrir square. well, too bad for tahrir square. as one young egyptian writer said tahrir square is not cairo and cairo is not egypt. it's a big country. and the forces represent in tahrir square, the forces that people-- foreigners, i don't want to pick on anyone-- go and meet and say these are the people we meet in cairo and they did not carry the day. they did not carry the day. this is the truth of it. >> rose: here is an interesting thing, david, as you well know. often we hear-- and i've heard this sitting at this table many, many, many times. we don't know what's going to come to power in libya. we don't know what's going to come to power in syria after assad-- whenever that day happens. are we going through something now with tunisia and now in egypt, an evolutionary process of sort of people like the muslim brotherhood in power and that may change them as much as
they change the country? >> well, that certainly has been the u.s. hope is that as the muslim brotherhood, the muslim democrats generally began to go into politics, had political roots to express their frustrations and their desires that that would take the violent edge off of islamist movements and they would then have to grapple with the realities of power. how to bring foreign investment, how to get an economy moving. how to get the g.d.p. growth level above 5%. those are the specific issues that now face the likely president morsi. and it was hoped that across the arab world that this process of empowering people who had been excluded by a corrupt essentially police state system would be beneficial. and i think that the obama administration has made a big
bet on this process of democracy and empowerment working in the long run for u.s. interests. you have to say this is a really bumpy process. egypt is the best example, but most countries showed the same thing. that shouldn't really be surprising in terms of really horrific outcomes. the main example of that is syria which fouad has written about. but i think, you know, the way i hear people in the administration describe it, we're kind of holding on for the ride here. obama has been very clear that he doesn't want to write the script for this arab revolution. even if he could, which is doubtful, he couldn't do it anyway. but the u.s. is being reticent, is being sometimes cautious to a fault. people in the arab world are
writing their own history, it's fascinating. it goes up and down, back and forth: and i suppose whether you're a native optimist or pessimist how you're going to turn out. isn't that what you've always wantd? >> charlie, there's a very good appropriate answer to the question that you asked. there is a team p.a./p.t.a. if you will for these islamist movements and the templatev÷ turkey. and what's interesting about american foreign policy-- and i think david depicted it just right-- the muslim influential advisor from region to president obama is none other than p.m. erdogan and when p.m. erdogan did a victory tour and went to egypt and tunisia and libya and when he went to egypt he told them "i am the muslim prime minister of a secular state." that was the model. and what drives turkey... this is the turkish model. i spend a lot of time talking to muslim brotherhood types who are syrians and they all want to be
like turkey. what's the force that drive turs economy? the devout bourgeoisie. the people who are islamists and muslim and devout but good and sharp businessmen. the muslim leader that david was talking about, he is one of the wealthiest people. he was even in prison and he would come out of prison every now and then and run a big economic empire. so a lot of the muslim brotherhood is very cunning, very wiley. we shouldn't think theklready to storm the bar)r(8qq and go to war with the army. this islamic... the muslim brotherhood was formed in 1928, they waited for this moment now for something like eight decades and they don't want to squander it. >> rose: well erdogan and his government, the word is in turkey they put the army back in the barracks. >> they put the army back in the barracks. but remember this took a long time and i don't think anyone in
egypt... i don't think anyone in the muslim brotherhood, president or parliament, is going to try to put the army in >> rose: the egyptian army is much more powerful. quickly to syria. the syrian rebellion is your book. so where are we in syria? >> i think we're in the middle of a sectarian civil war. i think because the world didn't come to the rescue because the cavalry didn't ride to the rescue we have the point that bashar al-assad yearned for. he wants to a sectarian sectarian war and this is the bet he's made. unless the powers... >> rose: all the sectarians will support me against the... >> yes. he's begun to do something very interesting now, bashar al-assad. instead of being t killing being done by the special forces, they're sending neighboral white villages to do the killing. alawite. the future of syria looks bleak. by the time the special regime
will fall-- and it will fall for sure-- by the time it will fall all the institutions of the syrian states will have been degraded and the country will have been radicalized and the bonds between the alawites and the sunnis will be completely severed. >> rose: david, syria? >> i think fouad's grim prognosis, unfortunately, sounds about right. it is such a horrific prospect this is a sectarian civil war that could quickly spread east and east to iraq and lebanon and also could endanger turkey that there are powerful reasons why people should intervene before this becomes a total all out bloodletting and the u.s. hope has been that russia would see that its interests lie in finding a political transition. so far the russians have behaved absolutely abominably.
and what pressure they've been able to bring on bashar al-assad they refused to do. ia,was on the strip and i heard the sound of that fabric ripping towards the border and i heard so many lebanese say that as this continues in syria, as sunnis and alawites and their shi'a allies are... begin to massacre each other this will spread to lebanon, too. >> rose: on that grim note, david, thank you very much. david ignatius from the "washington post." fouad ajami's book is called "the syrian rebellion." back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: the barnes foundation has moved its remarkable collections to downtown philadelphia. the move comes after years of debate and legal challenges but the new building has won lavish praise from visitors and critics. architecture critics writing in the "wall street journal" said "i have been waiting a long time
for a building like this. it's not about flashy stark and bling, high tech tricks, sensory deprivation or narcissistic egos. the barnes is all about the barnes. this is what architecture does when it does it right." and here is a look at the barnes foundation's new campus in philadelphia. >> our barnes had a view that art should be used to engage people with real life. to engage them with education. to engage them with opportunity, and most importantly to advance democracy in america. he was a poor kid who made a fortune creating an antiseptic and in 1912 he began yes collecting art, collected one of the greatest collections of modern art ever formed and housed it in a mansion which he built next to his former home and established an educational foundation which encouraged what he called ordinary people to engage with art, to learn from
art, to appreciate art. and most importantly it was about contemporary art. the conditions that barnes imposed in his charitable deed of gift were very constraining and so we ended up in a position where it was very difficult to operate the foundation. finances were in a very dire strait and the board of trustees petitions the court to move the collection to philadelphia so that the institution could survive. we're in the heart of philadelphia here on a street which was supposed to be the champs-elysees of america designed by two great french architects and it never happened like that because the crash happened. but there are still great buildings here, french beaux-art style buildings and these quiet limestone facade with the steel substructure sits very elegantly and politely in the context of those buildings. you've got the water, the reflecting pool something which to us has something of a japanese spirit with a great ellsworth kelly sitting at the
head of it. you come down this processional avenue of red maple trees across a bridge and into the gallery and that landscape says so much about albert barnes and his attitude towards harmony and unity and balance and the relationship far from nature. the >> the thing that's so interesting about how it's presented and the collection in terms of how it's presented is the way the collection is lit. so in marion the daylight was eliminated from most of the galleries. here the daylight is allowed in but modern technology allows us to reduce the dangerous light to an acceptable level and so we don't need to have blinds down except on extreme circumstances and the computer controls different levels of daylight. the outcome is we can see paintings in ways we never saw them before and it's being commented on that we've cleaned
the paintings. in fact, we haven't cleaned the paintings, we've simply let the light in. the barnes is accessible to many many more people than it could ever be before so that's very, very promising for a very exciting, independent, successful and viable future. something that the barnes wasn't looking at over a decade ago. >> rose: that piece produced by paul needham, one of my colleagues at cbs "this morning." joining me now, the architects of this new building, tod williams and billie tsein. they are a husband and wife team and have a great story to tell. i'm pleased to have them here at this table. welcome. great to see you. >> thank you. >> so here you are. had you been to the barnes foundation in marion? >> we're ashamed. >> rose: i hope you're ashamed. >> we have every reason we should have been there and we hadn't been. >> rose: it's a magnificent collection. great collections. >> incredible and we've known of it since we were in college and we live in new york so it's a disgrace. that said, we visited many times
in the last five years. >> rose: so you get a letter saying "are you interested in applying for a commission to redo"? >> we did. we got this letter and, of course, we immediately became very, very excited and got ourselves down to the barnes right away. one of the interesting things-- and i don't recall whether it was in that letter or whether it was when we were narrowed down to a smaller group-- but they did say that two important parts of the commission would be to replicate the hangings which are the sort of ensembles that barnes devised, showing relationships between paintings and that we needed to also keep the sequence of galleries intact. so those were two quite powerful requests. sort of thinking how do you make a building that is of its time when it's holding these pieces
which were sort of put together in specific way really 50 years ago. >> rose: so what was unique about the way he had the paintings? the sequence of the paintings? i realize there was a series of galleries but the way he hung the paintings that was part of the demand. >> well, he had an idea that in a way the entire... all of the four walls of the room would be the canvass and each of the facades, each of the faces of the room would have its own... we'd call it an ensemble. certainly'd be a most important painting in thea÷] center and or paintings would be deployed around the edges and used in conjunction with moldings and hardware that he'd collected to create an overall effect and to begin to see relationships between, for example, the hardware and the painting, the shape of an antique piece of hardware and something he saw in the painting.
his idea was that all people could learn about art, they didn't need to know the exact date or the pedigree of the work but you could learn about it by looking at it, by seeing the line, form, and color. so it's a kind of... it's certainly a teaching collection. >> rose: and thatónn was his mission. that people should feel the joy he felt and also the opportunity to study. >> yes. >> rose: so when you are selected for something like this in competition withest mabl architects who have done wonderful projects including museums, do they tell you why you? do they tell you what we liked about what you did?hçjñ or do they say it was just your personality? >> we made a very, very simple presentation. we knew that the people who we were talking to weren't architects so we tried to really think about the projectçy sense of those terms and we said when we think of the barnes collection we think of it as a
gallery in a garden and when it moves to the city in downtown philadelphia perhaps we could think of it... of course we try to still keep that sense of the gallery and we try to make a garden around it but could we also bring the sense of a guarden into the gallery? so there is a very, very simple diagram that showed the sort of gallery in a garden so there was green with a white square and a garden with a gallery, white square with green and i think what they appreciated was the simplicity of the idea and the desire to both give it a grounding in the garden which would make people feel at home but breathe life and light into the center of the building. >> rose: when you two work together, how do you work together? >> we don't try to separate what i do versus what billy does but it's clearly we're completely different types and personalities. i think there's no doubt that
i'm more aggressive in terms of thinking about form and shape and the way the building is put together and billie is more quiet and philosophical and lends wisdom to the mess that i create. >> rose: you're looking at him like "i can't wait to see what he says" and whether you've heard it before. (laughter) >> well, as i said prior to start of this interview there's very little filter between what tod thinks and what he says so whenever he starts talking... >> rose: that makes an interesting marriage, doesn't it? >> i know! after 30 something years he always surprises me. >> rose: but as you think about what will we do to bring together our experience, our intelligence,x1] our instincts,r creativity to do something that's going to draw a lot of attention. because not everybody was thrilled about moving marion to philadelphia. >> oh, no question. >> some people still aren't. >> well, i would say that it's
largely shifted. when we first got the assignment the friends... people we thought were friends were critical of us. >> rose: oh, really. "how could you do this?" >> yeah, how could you do this? what's your integrity? but we knew better. we understood deeply the assignment, the problems that occurred in marion and we knew that this was an opportunity not only to make the collection come back to life and be alive for hundreds and hundreds of years but also to bring philadelphia back to life. so we're problem solvers as architects so the problem was there. the problem we had to replicate and replicate the sequence but there was much more to the project. for example, in marion there was no public space whatsoever. so if you'd come to the barnes today in philadelphia you see really extraordinary public spaces. >> rose: public spaces for siting? public spaces for conversation? public spaces for... >> for reflection and, for
example, rooms for >> also, there are public spaces for people who aren't even going to see the collection. so there's really going to... a very big garden that's a very public garden so i think that... as todd says it's opening the collection. barnes was so clear that he wanted this collection to serve the people. and in many ways that was impossible to do, particularly over time in marion because they didn't want public transportation to come there, they didn't want parking because really this is a residential community. so in order to really serve the kind of audience i think that barnes imagined the collection would serve we felt that it was really ethically correct that it move and in many ways all of this sort of animosity and anger this was the first time we've ever worked on a project where people sort of picketed us and
sent us bad letters and blog which is i've learned not to read. >> rose: (laughs) that applies to all of us. >> but i think tod and i both feel the back story is really the back story and the collection and the foundation moves forward. >> rose: but there are things we knew we could achieve immediately. for example, if you're in marion there are only three windows... many windows in the building that barnes had placed but only three that could look out to the landscape and the landscape was an arboretum, beautiful plants that dr. barnes' wife was interested in and so many of the paintings were painted in natural light, virtually all of them. but they were also... because they were impressionist works they were also about nature. so the relationship between nature outside and the painting collection inside was absolutely severed. and we knew with new glass technology and... we really thought about the problem more deeply we could bring these paintings to life and by using
light. >> rose: so light became a significant challenge. >> absolutely. and also the solution. the challenge and the solution. >> rose: paul goldberger wrote in "vanity fair" "the worst thing you could have done was build a corporate museum." i can't imagine you thinking about a corporate museum. >> well, a nice... one of the great and interesting challenges was the balance of a kind of civic presence because it's on the benjamin franklin parkway with the kind of doe midwest thysty. it was really a house museum. we imagined dr. barnes padding around in his slippers and bathrobe rearranging things. >> rose: and all of his friends. (laughs) >> >> so what we did was when we designed the museum there are many details that are part of it that almost feels if they could belong in the house. >> rose: i mean by "friends" the artists. >> right. >> rose: so lighting is one challenge. what else was...
>> well, as billie mentioned, we are coming down to downtown philadelphia. i mean, there's always a budget challenge. we wanted to make sure that this project was simultaneously appropriate for the parkway, that meant that it was a civic building at the same0 wanted it to be domestic. so there were issues of intimacy and the public we tried to deal with. barnes also had integrated a whole series of african motifs and details into his home and threaded that through the project in marion that we thaulgtd were very, very interesting, it was a great opportunity. because dr. barnes was one of the earliest collectors of african art, recognizing that african art was really not just an ethnographic exercise but these were great... >> rose: unlike some projects, perhaps, you had to be infused and informed with the thinking of barnes himself. you wanted to make surew[ he capvured his spirit. >> right, we call him the
phantom client. >> rose: was louis cannes from philadelphia >> he was and we kept him in mind when we proceeded. >> rose: how so? >> we thought that kahn was one of the late 20th century architects, of all of the architects was an for two of his most important museums we've got in the world today, the kimball, which you know. >> rose: fort worth. >> and the center in new haven. and so kahn had really been the student of paul craig who was the designer of the original marion building and had a lot to do with the parkway. so we thought that somehow or other kahn should somehow be in our heart and soul as we moved forward. i think rather than try to copy kahn we really tried to absorb it. >> rose: capture the spirit. >> i think the building is... our building feels very solid and quite massive and i think in many ways kahn's buildings also feel very solid.
they're heavy buildings on the ground and they're trying to make a building that has no particular sense of a place in time and therefore maybe finds its place throughout times. >> light was a terribly important issue with kahn, too. he's trying to make sure the solid block is bathed in light, it comes to life by being reflected off a surface and we'll see that in the building. >> where did he put this in the context of both assignments and? >> i think it's the hardest assignment we've ever had. >> rose: because you had to put the old in the new? >> and because we had to in a certain way put on blinders and stop listening to the noise and do our work. >> rose: noise being the whole battle about leaving marion? >> yeah. >> rose: in terms of pride i think we were particularly thrilled to see that some people-- and louise is one of them and roberta smith is
another-- peter is yet another they were shocked that this could be accomplished.sfñ >> rose: were you shockd? >> we do our work. >> rose: what happened to the previous someplace what will happen to all that was in her i don't know in terms of physical structure. >> they haveeu a school of horticulture and i understand that's still located there and i understand they'll keep theira. >> the barnes foundation also has a piece of property where barnes collected indigenous
pottery from pennsylvania and artifacts so i think there could be many opportunity there is. i will say... >> rose: didn't he like indian and early... >> absolutely. >> he has a lot of native american pots and jewelry that he collected, too. it's part of the collection and also in a separate... >> so it will be loved and cared and it's an opportunity for someone else. >> rose: so what do you think of the ellsworth kelly sculpture? >> terrific, just feels like wow. >> rose: feels light? >> it belongs. it belongs. and it's also an indication that this is part of the present in every possible way that it's a gift to the city of philadelphia. kelly had done one of his earliest and most important works in philadelphia which had been in the bus station that belongs to moma after a long saga. so this is really his second but only public commission in philadelphia. >> rose: do you have a great love for a particular artist or particular time? >> tod and i actually look at a lot of contemporary art and
we're very, very interested in art and i have to say that when we first saw the collection we were overwhelmed with all the pink ladies because there were a lot of renoirs there. >> rose: (laughs) >> but we've really grown to love it. >> rose: how many are there? >> i think over 107. >> rose: when i saw that number... >> it's a lot of flesh. but it's also a lot of beautiful colors under the light that we've got. so we come to appreciate renoir a whole lot more than we ever did. but our interests are eclectic, too, we love contemporary art. if you're interested in things in the world you look at everything. everything is a possibility. >> rose: so the funny thing is in new york none of us have apartments that are big enough to have just one thing on the wall. so if you collect things no matter what they are they are... we realized our apartment is sort of hung. it's not quite so symmetrical. >> rose: you've got a bit of barnes in you? >> you make relationships and
they're hung that way and your things are arranged that way so you look at a wall and it's a different kind of barnes but it's a kind of barnes. >> rose: so what else is on your agenda these days? what happened to the dartmouth art museum? >> it's just beginning. >> that's an exciting new challenge. the hood museum at dartmouth has asked us to rethink their museum and they're really moving to become a teaching museum so it's quite a different assignment but both of them are educational institutions. the barnes and finished a wonderful creative and performing arts center at the university of chicago >> and then there are the two big skating rinks at prospect park so that's in new york city. >> rose: in brooklyn. >> in brooklyn. >> rose: the rise of brooklyn. >> brooklyn has already risen. manhattan ha s just trying to keep up. (laughs) it's wonderful because it's public. to do work that's public. >> rose: do you like the idea of being involved in public space? >> i do very much. >> we've been blessed by great
assignments but we need more of this. new york's been a great site for public work in the last year. >> rose: have you done any work in asia? >> we have just completed the asia society in hong kong to some acclaim and we're proud of that. we're also finishing a project in india but we don't seek work in asia. these our only two projects and we're happy with them but it takes a lot to understand the culture and the place. >> and we actually don't do any commercial work so we really only work for nonprofits. >> rose: you mean nobody has enough money to get you to design a fancy office? >> that's not true! that's not true! >> rose: (laughs) well, what is true? >> our aspirations... we work better for people whose aspirations match ours. >> rose: which are? how would you define your aspirations? >> we want to make good buildings that are useful to people and last for a very long,
long time that are as public as possible. >> rose: what's the definition of a good building?h= when we think of sustainable architecture it needs to be sustained over many, many years. hundreds of years, loved even as it changes its function. even as it changes... the users change. so i'd say that building good bodies, building good brains, building good bones for city it's the infrastructure that is the beginning and then at the same time you need to solve that basic problem. you need to also trance send it and make it... and realize that embedded in this system of doing good work is to exceed it and do beautiful work. >> rose: i mentioned in a quote from huxtable his notion of star architect. is that still around or has]nit seen its best days? the notion of where people with little appreciation for architecture wanted to have a building designed business.
as a mark of almost like a trophy. >> i love our profession rog and i think everybody who's involved in it, whether they're considered stars or not we're all people who just sort of do our work and so all that other sort of paraphernalia being pulled up or dropped down is peripheral. >> well, i think... i sort of disagree with you. it is spiritual. there's no question it's peripheral. >> we disagree. >> i think celebrities exist in all times and that celebrities a expect... >> rose: michaelangelo was a celebrity. (laughs) >> yeah, absolutely. and he worked under that at the same time. i think he also maintained his integrity as he did his work and so he was blind in many ways. he both... look, he lived off much of it, julius ii was his patron but at the same time i think he put his head down and did his work as best he could and realized that it was his
love of sculpture that would drive him every single day. and i think that's what billie is saying most of us do. this issue of architecture will come and go but it's... we're saying that the light shines and the light burns and then the light turns off but we keep on going. >> rose: there's a magic here between the two of you, you know that, because you spend so much time together. yet there's a sense of wonder about each other from each other that really is... it makes someone like me who is in love with love and the idea of... even the thing you saw me do, the relationship between those two people, i'm just fascinated by that. and in the presence of the two of you it's like this is magic how do i bottle this? this notion of two people who spent so many hours together. it's as if they're having their first dinner together. >> that's nice. >> that's really nice.
i should also say we need to run this by the studio. (laughter) i can be pretty horrible. there's no question about it. >> rose: i should go over there with my camera and get a different idea? (laughs) >> it's possible. i enjoy being with one another... >> rose: otherwise it would be miserable. >> absolutely. >> rose: (laughs) >> and probably is a little bit. >> rose: well, i can't wait to get to fill fill to see this. much success and great to have you here. back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: peter pee joe here. for 13 years he was the executive director of u.n. aids and led the organization to combat the disease. his co-discovery of the ebola virus at the age of 27 marked his initiation into the world of global health. now as the director of the london school of hygiene and tropical medicine his mission is to bring system wide innovation to the field. he shares his unique experiences as a scientist, adventurer, clinician and diplomat and a new
them war called in time to lose. a life in pursuit of deadly viruses. i am pleased to have him here on this program to talk about where we are so where do you think we stand today when you look at h.i.v./aids and these sort of viruses that have such powerful possibilities? >> one of the lessons of aids is that even in our very sophisticated times we can still see viruses taking over the whole world who wuf thought 30 years ago that of eight people, eight gay men in california we gould into 60 million people infected. it's just kind of nearlyt biblical and then"on the other hand we've seen in my short life new viruses coming, there's been sars, the new flu. there will be more surprises. on the other hand we have a new tsunami coming up. a tsunami coming up of chronic diseases, diabetes that is
taking over the world outside africa so we're constantly in transition. >> rose: and what is it that causes this sort of alarming rise in diabetes? is it simply diet? >> it's diet, lack of exercise the westernization of life-styles. it's also wealth today in china people can afford to eat meat and more sugar it's one of the biggest challenges right now. >> rose: it's similar to say isn't it. if you say to someone who's five years old today if you over the rest of your life if you eat less and less sugar and less and less meat you'll be more healthy. >> yes. >> rose: we all know that. >> yeah. but you know try to buy drinks
with no sugar, it's our whole life-style, our whole society is making us fat and also in many cases there is... new york city is a good÷f example where people walk for mar. we have regulationings here that you can't smoke even in central park. it's a pioneering city so it shows it's possibility but it's going to take a big leadership here. >> rose: what should be the goals in our approach to global health today? give us a sense of what a national... like you had the millennium goals, what ought to be the millennium goals in global health for 2012? >> well, we have a huge unfinished agenda. aids is one of them. there's still two million people who have become infected. we have still malaria, t.b., women dying while giving birth. on the other hand, we also have a new emerging agenda such as diabetes and obesity and we've got to work on both sides and i
think the key is going to be to find efficiencies and work far more together so that we get the best bang for the buck in terms of operations on the ground. >> rose: how do we do that? find efficiencies and work together? >>. >> i think we need to plan better we know how to do that and... but it doesn't make sense to have on the one corner of the street a program so women will not transmit h.i.v., pregnant women to their baby and on the other hand on the other corner of the street a clinic for regular anti-natal care. let's put them together. that's one very practical example. >> this is a typical journalistic kind of question. what what keeps you up at night? what sdmrn what fear? what urgent? >> well, at the moment is the sustainability of thewív aids effort. we saw last year the columnist in at a... covered the end of
aids and now the perception is there that it's over and it's not over and so how to sustain that effort for probably decades... >> rose: is that a battle for public health and information or battle for science and research in the laboratory? >> for both because if we will have a rack seen, if we will have a cure-- and we don't have either-- then i can say yeah the end of aids will be in sight we just have to deliver these goods but it's also for public elg education, making sure drugs are there and getting ourselves organized but above all keeping the attention, political leadership. if we made any difference in aids it's because when the stars were aligned of science, of the leadership and, of course, on the ground. >> rose: you recently said dementia is one of the largest challenges of global health calling it a ticking time bomb. dementia? >> dementia indeed. one of the great successes of health and development is that we live longer.
and so with growing age we have more dementia going on and it's particularly the case in older populations and it's hard to predict the future. but it's easy to say that we'll have more and more people who will need help and i also cite that we're no longer equipped for that and how rel we do that? it can be expensive. family support has to be there, community support and that's not always available. >> rose: should it]ñw be classid as a non-communicable disease? >> we don't know really the origin of dementia. there are a number of like... even alzehimer's disease we don't fully understand where it's coming from but it's increasing that's why research is certainly very, very important and treatment we don't have yet. >> when you were at u.n. aids, how did you measure your biggest success and failure? >> i think putting aids on the political agenda. we have in the security council here at the u.n. also also with
a top concern in many, many countries. that was definitely the key for the current achievements and secondly helping to bring down the price of anti-retro viral drugs so that can become available for people all over the world. these are two, i think, successes who have impacted theb rest. what failures, i would say, russia and the former soviet union. it's the only part of the world where there are still... there's still an increase in number of new infections of h.i.v. because of a lack of leadership, because of an unwillingness to tackle the issue of drug use, injecting drug use with measures that we know that work like methadone and so on. that's the biggest failure. >> there is also the notion of the story you tell which offered lessons of life. tell me the story. >> oh, the story of the chameleon? >> rose: yes. >> my successor is from maui, michele sid biand he told me the
story when i met him for the first time he said in malley in his ethnic group boys at 12, 14 years they have to go through some initiation rite and one of the things they have to do, they get a chameleon and they disappear for a few days in the bush, let's put it this that way and they have to observe the chameleon and they have to come back and tell the eders what they observed and, of course, everybody says the chameleon changes color. that we know but he said look, the first thing when you look at the exceed i don't know is that its head is always... it doesn't move. so stick to your goal. have a long-term goal. two what are the eyes doing in a chameleon? they go around and scan the environment so good intelligence is essential. and%ñ:j thirdly it changes coloo you have to adapt to the environment but if you change color without having... sticking to your goal than you're an opportunist. if you stick to your goal and
change color you'll be effective. another thing is exceed chameleons walk on stick. they go one step at a time and the last thing-- it's a very long story because in mali they like to talk. what's the most important organ of a chameleon? and that's the tongue because... and if the tongue comes out too fast the fly-- it lives on flies-- is not there. the fly is gone so timing is everything and these are all kinds of basic principles for management, for life. so what will the chameleon do? >> rose: this book is called "no time to lose," a life in pursuit of deadly viruses. peter piot, thank you so much. great to have you here. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time.