tv Charlie Rose WHUT September 19, 2012 10:00am-11:00am EDT
>> rose: welcome to the program, we begin this evening with a conversation about twitter, everybody is doing it, so we talked to the ceo, dick costolo. >> the way i think about the future of the company is a combination of are we being courageous enough and are we focused? and focused tells you what not to do. focus is, we can't do everything let's make sure we just do this or we just do this. but at the same time, when you think about that in balance with courage, it is we can't just sit on our lawyers here. we have to be bold and try this new thing which sound crazy and probably has no reason it should work. >> rose: we continue this evening with the dramatic story of bill browder, he is an investor who found his way to
russia and there is an intriguing tale of what happened then. >> we hire a young lawyer, named sergei, he was 36 years old, he worked for this american law firm and he was the smartest guy i new in, knew in upon moscow he was a lawyer that could run circles around everyone else, you call at 10:00 o'clock at night, 1:00 o'clock at moscow and figure it out by the time you got to the office in the morning there would be a memo in the in-box, he was the most reliable guy we knew, sergei help us figure this whole thing out. and sergei goes out and investigates and says the situation is far worse than you can imagine. not only have the police been involved in stealing your companies, but they created a billion dollars of fake contracts that claim your companies owe a billion dollars to some three empty shell companies. we said, my god, that is terrible. he said it gets worse. >> rose: dick costolo of twitter and bill browder when we continue.
>> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: dick costolo is here, he is ceo of twitter social networking service has now grown to 140 million active users who tweet over 340 million times a day. hhe has led the company successful mobile strategy, an area that competitors such as facebook continue to find elusive, twitter has had a wind ranging impact on events around the globe, last year it gave voice to the millions of arab spring protesters organizing rebellions across the middle east, earlier today twitter revealed a new revamped home page and pleased to have him at this table for the first time. welcome. >> thanks for having me, i love what you have done with the new
set here. >> rose: thank you, thank you. i mean, this is it for us. >> this is the way it started 20 years ago when we had zero money to spend on a set. you know if it works, don't change it. >> exactly. >> we take advantage of all of the technology but w we this wil serve us well. >> rose: tell me about what you have done with the i-pad. >> sure. we heard from our users over and over that they wanted to bring more of their personality to the profile pages and we took that feedback and reacted to it in the form of allowing users to bring more photos and rich media to their profile pages, so larger background images, more photos toward the top of the page, easier to flip through photos, et cetera. so we are trying to balance the 140 character constraint with the fact that people are tweeting videos and photos and how do we allow them to consume both of those things at the same
time. >> rose: are you ever going to run into trouble because? how you may be in conflict with some of the people who depend on you. >> i don't think so, no. we are going to keep doing what we have been doing and the more people around the world that was the service and participate in this global conversation around whether bit politics or literature or sports, the better. >> rose: mobile. mentioned in the introduction what is the key to unlocking mobile for advertisers? >> the key for us has certainly been that the canvas is the conversation itself. what i mean by that is, traditional marketing has been about the mega phone, here is our message and we will shout it there 2 megaphone and you listen to it. >> rose: right. >> that is changing dramatically .. as people migrate to mobile, and the ad, the marketers
message has to be content, the screen is simply too small with too little real estate for people to be paying attention to or both everything with being shouted at, you have to be delivering content to them that they want to see in the context of everything else they are seeing. so i think that what we are observing, at least on twitter, is a migration of marketers to mobile that is in concert with an understanding that the message needs to be content, not just some ad now. >> rose: but facebook hasn't been able to do that as well. >> well, you know, i am focused on -- i have my work cut out for me. >> rose: you don't want to spend this program advising facebook how to run their business? or offering any help that you can? >> i think that our experience at twitter has been when you design an ad platform that goes everywhere, the tweets go we don't have to worry about which platform is more successful, mobile, a tablet, per se, a new
form factor that hasn't come out, et cetera. >> rose: how much has the ad market been tapped, the advertising market for mobile? >> oh, it is absolutely in its infancy, it will change dramatically in very near term. >> rose: and how will it change? >> rose: essentially the formula, the model is there? >> i don't -- i don't think the model is necessarily there yet. i think that as i mentioned, advertisers will need to adopt the way they communicate with customers in this world where there is a limited amount of real estate on the screen, you have to be participating in whatever the user is doing in a way that is meaningful to that user. it can't be a one size fits all here is a message we will blast out to 5 million people. >> rose: state depends on the message and what they are interested in receiving. >> absolutely. >> rose: so it has to coincide in some way with the content they want to watch. >> that's exactly right. one of the reasons as i mentioned earlier, one reason the canvas is the conversation,
what we are trying to telemarketers is you might not even go into a campaign knowing what you want to say in advance. i will give you one example. there was a race, an auto race in daytona and there was a fire on the track. and in putting the fire out, tied, industrial strength tide was used to douse the fire, they tweet add photo of these guys carrying this industrial strength tide out and said caption this photo for us. and that was an amazing marketing campaign for them on twitter, right? >> rose: it was a caption. >> they ended up doing a 30 second spot on tv after the caption the photo contest and i don't recall what the winner was. >> rose: how do you measure the impact twitter had in arab spring? >> so here is the way i think about all those kinds of that category of question what impact did this service have? and by
category, i mean in the arab spring, in earthquake and subsequent tsunami in fiewk chicago ma, i think, fiewk chicago ma fukushima, i think it was a mechanism, a part of many mechanisms in the case of the arab spring by which people were able to organize and protest. >> rose: you put all of social media in one category. >> i think that is fair to put them in one category, and the category i would put them in was that they allowed people to organize protests, maybe more efficiently than they could previously, particularly in countries where, you know, there is state run media and it is harder to communicate in those countries outside of official media. >> rose: would you go so far to say it wouldn't have happened without social media? >> i don't think that is -- i don't think that is necessarily fair or -- >> rose: es that's the way the word got out in the beginning. >> as the way people were able to organize. i think that we, as
technologiesnologist can,s can impart too much impact on our own technology. >> rose: someone said wisely one time, technology does not deliver as much as you expect in the beginning and in the end delivers more than you expect. >> i think that is accurate and a great insight. one of the things we have seen on twitter is we are constantly surprised by the kinds of conversations that emerge on the platform. you know, it has become trite to say that technology has reduced the distance between people in terms of allowing them to communicate, it eliminated the barriers of time and geography, for example, but i think on twitter, specifically, that distance has been so collapsed that all of these other artificial barriers to communication are eroded, like the barriers of socioeconomic
status or celebrity, et cetera. and so you will see these conversations emerge on twitter like, the canadian hip-hop artist drake tweeting something like the first million is the hardest, you know and it is kind of this bold statement, if you will, and t. boone pickens replying, drake, the first billion is a hell of a lot harder, right? and you would never see that kind of conversation in any sort of public forum. >> rose: it is also amazing, how people publicly have adapted to the idea of tweeting, rupert murdoch or whether a whole range of people. and an extraordinary sort of widening of a phenomenon. >> yes. >> rose: as much as a deepening of it. >> that is correct. i think it is one of the funny things for me to observe over the last few years has been all those barriers that have been knocked out, you would first hear from an executive at a public company, well, i can't
tweet as an executive at a public company and along comes rupert murdoch who is a fantastic user of the platform and you start to then see other executives. we have seen the same thing with politicians. >> rose: how is it being used differently in this election than previous elections? >> it is absolutely the case during this election that both sides of the aisle recognize that the campaign is happening in real-time. meaning it is no longer the case that the campaign can analyze tonight's debates, go out and poll people to see what they said and then issue a press release tomorrow about some sort of language. they have to do that right away, because people are on twitter and these other services talking about what they are observing and reacting to it as it happens. >> rose: the societal consequence of what we have seen with facebook and twitter, the real-time, it is now. >> that's right, that is
correct. >> rose: and what are the implications of that over the longer run? >> well, i think there can be a tendency to miss categorize that .. as, well people are paying deeply thoughtful attention to things anymore and just reacting off-the-cuff, i don't think it is necessarily the case the two go hand in hand. for example, you know, you had salmon rushdie on the other day, you can follow salmon rushdie on twitter. >> rose: thank you very much that was last night. >> you can have a conversation with salmon rushdie and tag at king to margaret atwood and be conversing on twitter. >> rose: he leaves the table, i don't know whether he did this or not, people leave the table, as soon as they leave the table, cbs this morning and here they are tweeting about the experience. i was with charlie rose and i said this or he asked me this, asked me is all all a reflection of what just happened to them. >> yes. >> rose: raises this question,
140 characters are here to stay photography? >> it is sacrostangt, yes. >> rose: why is it sacrosanct? >> because it works. >> rose: that's a good reason. there is something about the constraint that is -- makes it exactly the right length, and i don't know what it is, and i don't pretend to know what it is but you will have conversations with people like professional comedians and they will tell you and i wrote this joke and used twitter sometimes to test out new jokes and when i was done with it, it was 150 characters and i thought, darn it if only twitter allowed me to use 150 characters and i went and edited the joke and made it 140 characters, and it is a lot fun we are in way. >> rose: exactly right. and i would say to anybody, if you can't get a good question in 140 characters, then it is not a good question. >> that's right. there is something about it that works, it is magic, we will leave it at that. >> rose: why was it 140? >> >> rose: that is the oldest question ever asked about twitter. >> that's fine. it is a good question.
so there was originally limit face between the text messages and text messages you could send between mobile operators that was basically 160 character limitation, if you were on one service and i was on another you were only allowed 160 characters a message, since, they decided well, we will take the 160 characters, shorten it by february for the user name of the person sending the twitter user name of the person send i don't go 2 tweet and then reserve five characters for something else. and you have, there you have your 140 characters. >> rose: who figured this out? >> jack dorsey. >> rose: jack's idea. >> the inventor of the product. >> rose: spa you brought him back when you became ceo ass chairman, why? >> jack was the invent sorry inventor of the product and he and biz, the three founders all think about twitter in fascinating ways, and they focus on different aspects of the
service in fascinating ways, and i asked jack to come back to help us think about a product strategy in the broadest sense because as the inventor of the product i felt that he spoke with affluency about the product that would be helpful to us as we were going through that organizational transition. >> rose: plus me said a remarkable entrepreneurial instinct. >> he -- i will tell you the fascinating thing about both av and jack, and i love biz as well but the fascinating thing about av and jack. >> rose: i love biz as well. >> i do, i mean that in the most sincere way possible. they both think about -- >> rose: like two children, i still love you. >> they both think about technology, from lines of sight that are very, very different than the way other people think
about technology. and so it is fascinating to get their per expect i was the on topics, because you will inevitably get an answer that is not an answer you got from someone else on the team. biz is also one of the funniest people i ever met so i have to give him a compliment there. >> rose: speaking of you, there was a time when you came out of school, having a degree in computer science, i think a that time. >> correct. >> rose: you thought about becoming a performer. >> i more than thought about it. if i didn't accept any of the offers i had to go work in technology, and went to chicago to improvise, trying to be a professional, be a professional performer. and spent a number of years doing that, working with folks at second city and the theatre for quite a while. >> did you get to know some of the stars that came out of there. >> sheer, rachel trash and steve carell and i were in the same training center group. >> rose: let's take him for a second, when you look back
there, why did you not stay and have the kind of career stephen carell had. >> he was, fun never than me. >> steve carell is one of the best, fastest improvise stores you will, impro visors you will never meet. he is not lightning round robin williams, the manicness but he is quick, he is consistent, and he always delivers. he was always that good. >> rose: and he is self depractice indicating in an interesting way. >> you know, i haven't -- i hae seen him once in like the last 20 years, but he is the nicest, best, you know, guy you could ever hope to meet. >> rose: so when you went to google, having created. >> feed bunker. >> rose: right, feed burner and sold it to google, you thought what? i will just be here at google and this is it? >> that was a tremendous experience. i will tell you, i think that
you, if you work one place and think about the way that company does things, you can develop these success things that are completely unfounded so the beauty of working, starting my own company and building that and then working at some of these other places i have worked, like google as you start to realize after working at a number of these places that some of these success bioses are a completely unfounded like, wait, why do we have small teams instead of larger teams? well because company x, you know, we had small teams are the w this. and so it was fascinating at a place like google where you were allowed to do a lot more experimenting and thing think about structures and processes differently to see the different way people did that and to learn whated kind of things worked that you would never have thought worked. >> rose: so why did you go and leave that and go to twitter? >> i am an entrepreneur by heart
and i left with the intention of starting a new company. before i had 9/11 gotten week one into the new company, av, who was the ceo of twitter at the time, contacted me and asked me to come help him with operational software. >> rose:. >> i decided -- into did you know the potential of it when he asked you to come? >> it was already kind of really taking off, and so, yes, at that time, i did, i will admit that in the very early days, i would never have guessed that it would grow to be to what it grew. but at that point in 2009, i did, and i told myself, look, these opportunities come along once in a lifetime and only a handful of these technology companies in the digital constellation that can change the world. i have to go to twitter. >> that can change the world? >> i think so. >> ? what way? >> well you mentioned a couple of them already.
>> almost thinking more about allowing people -- giving people a voice who didn't have a voice, providing, you know, media has traditionally given us a filtered view of what is going on around some event, even if it is a camera on a protest on iran, the beauty of twitter is you now get this inside out, multiperspective view of what is going on from other observe whores are there, participates who are involved, participates who are involved, .. >> rose:in, an instant community. >> yes and i think that multiperspective inside out view of the event is incredibly important and will provide people with a different context for thinking about these things that will change the world in all sorts of ways. if we go back to talking about salman rushdie who you had on the program last night when you
see these conversations he has with these other literary figures, and you are getting a world class education in literature and character development right before your eyes. >> rose: i mean, i think doing the program that i do, this program where you have time to explore a lot of issues, it is the issue we have not even begun to understand the capacity of the magic of the conversation in real-time. >> right. >> rose: because of all the things that can happen. other shows are doing that and other programs are doing it and you see it all the time and bringing it in, but i mean the nature of this, i think the future for us to do it is bigger than most and at the same time we have done less. >> i will tell you, he think that statement is profound and insightful that we have not even begun to scratch the surface of what you will be able to do with this rich conversation that happens in real-time. you know if you think about the elections, again, it was the case four years ago and always before that that when there would be a debate, after the
debate, we would go to -- we are going now to this pundit in a room with 12 people who apparently represent america and asked them what they thought. >> rose: right. >> now they go to twitter to see what america thought, and it is not filter and it is not biased by the pundits perspective on it, et cetera. >> the advantage facebook has is they have a lead time, constantly changing very good software. does twitter have that same advantage? i mean first in, deepest penetration, likely wins the game. >> i think that we were a mobile first company which has served us very well. >> rose: exactly. >> however, i would say that, you know, it is incumbent on me and the rest of the team at twitter to be constantly focusing on how can we be more efficient about our pace of execution? i think as companies grow and get bigger just in
terms of number of people in the company and legacy software, et cetera, organizations get these barnacles on them that make it harder to turn and be nimble, and i think al all the time abot what are the kind of processes and structures we need to either put in place or remove to allow us to be nimble. that some something i have spent an extraordinary amount of attention to. i don't think just being first lets you -- >> rose: you can't coast, obviously you can't coast. >> right. >> rose: interesting silicon valley is a perfect laboratory for what you just said. i mean, you take opinions that have had all kind of advantages, witness one, hewlett packard, it has gone, witness two, microsoft. i mean, it does say to you, because you are first doesn't mean you will be first in everything and you will use your huge resources as well as you might. >> that's right. so here is how i think about that. >> rose: in silicon valley -- >> i understand what you are
saying. at the highest level, the way i think about the future of the company is a combination of, are we being courageous enough and are we focused? and focus tells you what not to do, right? focus is, we can't do everything, let's make sure we just do this and we just do this. but at the same time, when you think about that imbalance with courage, it is we can't just sit on our lawyers here. we have to be bold and try this new thing which sound crazy and probably has no reason it should work. and i think the companies that balance that effectively, amazon is a great example, apple, of course, are the ones that are successful. so that balance is critical to thinking about the future of the company. >> rose: $700 billion company, isn't that amazing? >> it is extraordinary. >> rose: twitter has a close relationship with apple. >> i would say that, yes. i think it is a great relationship. >> rose: and how does it serve
you? >> well, pragmatically we are integrated into the ios. >> rose: right. >> so that makes it very easy for users to leverage twitter on apple devices and it is the integration is beautiful. the teams on both our side and apple's side worked on it and it is elegant and simple and beautiful, hike you would expect from apple initiated effort. i think theme matically the way it them, thematically the way it benefits us .. apple is in many ways a mentor company for us. they think about simplicity of design and not feature, feature, feature, but what can we remove from the product? to make it easier to use and simpler to use? and that is the kind of thing we aspire to, so it is helpful for us to work with them. >> rose: how do you see the roles of facebook and twitter developing? >> i think that they are very
different companies, for one. i think that we think about people and the kind of accounts they follow, painting a picture of an interest graph, by which i mean i followed san francisco 49ers but they are not my friend. on my facebook i have a collection of friends. >> rose: everything you want to know about 49ers. >> on facebook, you know, i have a group of friends and they are my friend and there is a symmetrical relationship here and on twitter it is asymmetric, pushing that forward, i think that the way the companies will evolve is, you will see more real-time communication, more sharing, more willingness to share, so it is definitely the case that younger generations are much more willing to share all kinds of -- all kind of media and information about what they are doing right now, photos from what they are doing right
now and videos, and i think you will continue to see that -- i think you will continue to see more and more and more of that. i do think that despite -- i should say irrespective of aspects of the companies that may be competitive we compete for advertisers, for example, that they will continue to be very different things in people's eyes. >> rose: some people have said, and i know this is a stretch, but some people have said that google is the new microsoft, facebook is the new google, and twit search the new facebook, twitter is the new facebook .. >> i think people sometimes force themselves into analysis that really don't make a lot -- don't work out. >> rose: don't resonate. >> don't resonate. no, i think google, look they are a remarkable company and they have got a -- android is doing amazingly well and chrome is doing amazingly well and search continues to be
remarkable, so i don't see that analysis -- >> rose: is android going to be more powerful as a system than we imagined in the beginning? i mean has it shown that because its velocity has been stronger than the -- >> i think that. >> rose: apple operating system. >> i think google will continue to have tremendous success with android, and we will see how it evolves and, you know, obviously with the motorola acquisition you have to be curious about what they are thinking there. there is obviously a lot of speculation about did they acquire it just for the ip or is this an interesting full stack hardware-software opportunity larry beige is going to pursue. i don't know what the answers are there, but obviously spent enough money on that that they obviously have buying plans for it. >> indeed. but you mentioned the whole thing, so somebody might ask because you have had a series of acquisitions, yes?
>> >> can you imagine the time that twitter might come with hardware? >> we don't think about those kind of things. it is not in our -- that is not in the wheelhouse of the kinds of things we are thinking about. >> rose: what are the wheelhouse of the things you are thinking? >> i think about continuing to move, remove friction from people's ability to communicate in real-time. >> rose: yes. >> everything we can do to remove friction from real-time communications is what we are thinking about right now. >> rose: and some people talk about the management of twitter echo system and at the same time the creation of this consistent twitter experience. >> yes. so twitter has an api that allows people to take the tweets, take a stream of tweets and do whatever they want to do with them and we have that and it is free and people can use it and so forth. >> rose: do they? >> yes. in tremendous numbers, hundreds of thousand of applications out
there that leverage the twitter api. it used to be the case that the way that api was used in many respects was by companies that twook the tweets and went over and built an alternative user experience, alternate twitter experience, use this experience to use twitter. and it might be on iphone, you had twitter ific, and tweety and tweet got and all of these things. >> rose: right. >> and around the spring of 2010, we -- the management team at twitter, i was the ceo and i was the coo decided that it was important for us to have an owned and operated twitter client on all of the major platforms, because it was hurting our ability to innovate, because we would want to create some innovation and then have to try to convince the other kinds
of clients to adopt it and they might be going in one direction and we wanted to go in another. and as our users were starting to adopt twitter on more than just one platform, for example they would use it on the web and on an android phone, web and blackberry. >> we have to have a consistent owned and operated experience on the client. once we decided that what we tried to message the ecosystem is, there are all of these central added services we would like you to start building that our customers and users are going to want, like large corporate accounts, one in customer relationship management software, and there are already thousand of twitter clients, there isn't needs for lots and lots and lots of new kinds of clients and that is the migration we have been continuing down. i think the future of twitter will be that we will have a true platform by which i mean not just an api that will allow
developers to create an alternate twitter experience but an api and true platform that allows third percents parties to build on top of twitter in a way that creates, creates a creative value for the users in much the way amazon created a true platform and said we will allow third party merchants to build into amazon and they can leverage our logistic capabilities and recommendation engine, et cetera and the user gets the benefits of the platform, plus the added inventory of these third parties, et cetera. >> rose: you have mentioned this several times and i still agree with you that jeff bezos is one of the giants out there, because he has been doing it longer and over the honker form, and he has been able to move beyond the original creation. >> yes. >> rose: with a remarkable success rate. >> yes. >> rose: because his singular phone on the consumer. >> yes. that's right. i agree with that. absolutely. >> rose: and you put him right
at the top with everybody, whether it was steve, or larry and sergei or -- >> jeff's maniacal laugh, and maniacal focus on the customer has served him incredibly well. i think, you know, sat a great -- one of the great, i think lessons learned from amazon is that there are so many different paths to success. you had apple's focus and courage, and jeff's version of that has been i am going to do a bunch of different things but maniacally focus on the customer and had the success he had .. so there is no question that user first, user engagement first served those guys well and there is a lot to learn from that. >> rose: where are we in terms of in the digital revolution? what is the moment we are in?
>> i think it is still remarkably early days, and that will, we will look back on this 20 years from now at this time and say, wow, it was so early. you know, remember when the web was the way we -- you know, we experienced our digital life? things like google glass. >> rose: when the web because the way we experienced our digital life. what great line. >> i think even things like google, the glass that google is working on, not that will be -- people tend to see these first versions of things and then say, oh, so we are all going to be walking around looking into the sky? they are a hint as to the kind of things that can happen and change the world in extraordinary ways. >> rose: yes. it is about some sense, you may not have it now, but the fact that you are taking this step means that you may have it. >> that's right. and i think that is an enormous step and it is a courageous step. >> rose: okay. there are challenges too down the road, having nothing to do
with the development of the product but everything to do with the fact that we live in a kind of society we do. you have had to turn over a protester at occupy. >> yes. >> rose: what are the ramifications of that and what are the lessons of that and what does it say going forward? >> yes. so our position in this case has been that we have -- we feel we have an obligation to protect our users's right to protest the forced production of their private information. we have to balance that desire with our obligation to respect the rule of law. and that is the kind of fine line we are trying to navigate here.
i think that the answer to your question is, we will have to see how this case plays out on ultimately on appeal. when we provided that information, we provided it sealed. in the hopes that based on appeal we will still be able to give that user his ability to protect that information information. >> rose: what was a factor in the decision? >> well, i can't say i know the answer to that, the judge would have to tell you what that was. our belief is that, you know, well, our belief is that we wish we hadn't had to do that and we did it under seal in the hopes that we can win on appeal. >> rose: but do you see other issues like that on the h>> of . and i see them around the world, because, you know,. >> rose: china. >> there are different laws in different countries, of course. i will tell you that the
specific kind of these cases that concern me the most are the ones in which in the uk the version of these called super injunctions, i believe is the term, but these court orders that don't allow you to say that there is a courtrd order. so not only do you have to turn over this information you are not allowed to mention publicly that you received an order to turn over this information. i think that those are particularly disconcerting and don't have -- there is something creepy about them that makes me feel like they don't have a place in the kind of world we have all decided we want to live in here in the u.s., at least. >> rose: this may be a no-brainer, but if you look at those places that would like to
shut down twitter, facebook, means for people within the community within a larger community, communicate, are we beyond that as a possibility? >> well, we are -- >> rose: that is a dream that some dictator can give up? >> we are blocked in china and iran. >> rose: do you have to change behavior by them or technology or what? >> you have to have change of understanding by them that blocking this service does not -- does not prevent people ultimately from using it. we do have a large number of users in china who just use a virtual private network, get out of the country through -- and use twitter. some of them very, very famous, you know, the great chinese
artist spoke open and freely about twitter. so, you know, i think that ultimately these kinds of communications will, people will make their voices heard. it is lake water, it will find its way around the dam and it will flow. >> rose: it always a has and always will. >> it always has and always will, right. >> rose: where will it be five years from now? will it be a public company? >> i say this all the time and i mean this in the sincerest way possible. as the perfectly reasonable question. when i think about the company and, you know, another question people ask me frequently is what do you worry about when you go to bed at night? and the thing i worry about is just balance between courage and focus, and i don't -- i think about, of course -- >> rose: courage and focus. >> courage and focus. >> rose: explain that equation. >> are we being -- are we being
as bold as we could be, are we taking chances and not just being able to protect what we have but doing this amazing new thing, and balancing that with let's not go to every new thing we want to do. we have to do few things and decide what we are not going to do and make sure we are concentrating our efforts. so that balance, i think, is the tension that apple and amazon, in their very different ways have successfully navigated so well. and that is what i obsess about all the time, not how we are going to finance the next stage of growth in the company. >> rose: changing the model or any of that stuff but do you think the business will be essentially and out growth of what you are doing now? >> yes, i do. the beauty of twitter today. >> rose: sort of asking what game changes might be out there, but go ahead. >> the beauty of twitter today is that more and more people are using it who don't tweet. i think it may even be the most -- i'm sorry, the least understood change in the service
over the last couple of years is. >> rose: what do you mean? >> i mean there are more and more people, almost 40, over 40 percent of our user base now who logs into twitter regularly and they don't tweet, they just read tweets, they consume treats. >> rose: got you. >> it was very much the case in the early years of the company that you got on to twitter because you were ready to tell people what you were doing and industry this idea and you engage in this conversation. with as you mentioned a at the p of the show hundreds of millions of tweets pouring in every day now, there are already something for everybody on there, and we have got more and more users coming to the platform and using it who are just consumers. and i think that has fascinating implications for the way we think about the future of the service. there are lots of people coming who don't want to and may never tweet, but still come every day or every hour. >> rose: every new employee at twitter you do sort of a five
hour immersion. >> yes. >> what is that about? >> it is much longer than that now. >> rose: how long is it? >> days now. the culture at twitter and the company we are trying to build is so important and it is important because when ever everybody is on the same page and understands how to be successful in their work and how that maps to what the bean is trying to do, you know how to wake up in the morning and be efficient and productive in what you are doing. and when you don't understand what the management team or the leadership team understands, you can end up working incredibly long hours and not having any idea whether your work is being helpful to the company or not, and knows are, i think, horrible places to work. so lots of this immersion is about making sure everybody
understands what the rest of us understand, right, from the day you get here you have to understand what the rest of us understand. >> rose: right, right. i mean really it is a sense of you say to them we have a culture. >> right. >> rose: we want you to be a part of that culture. >> that is correct. >> rose: to be a part of it i don't have you to understand it and understand not only what it is but why it is. >> that's -- i think the why is probably the most important piece of it. all aspects of the why. why we have to achieve what we want to achieve, right? and why we, you know, why we have got these goals, why we set these core values out for ourselves. >> rose: it is a pleasure to have you here. >> thanks very much for having me. it has been my pleasure. >> rose: back in a moment, stay with us. >> rose: bill brow kerr is here, the ceo and cofounder of heritage capital management, established in 1996 with $25 million to invest in russia over the next decade they grew to 4. 4.5 billion things took a
turn to the worse when he was refused to reenter russia, raid bed at this russian tax police and the firm's la lawyer reveald $230 million tax fraud person trailed by government officials in 2009 he was sent to jail where he died that year at the age of 37. since that time, bill browder has dedicated his time and his resources to uncovering the truth and prosecuting the guilty, i am pleased to have him here at this table for the first time. welcome. >> thank you for having me. >> rose: i want to set this up first with you and then you he gets involved and his death. and what you are doing now. you went to -- your grandfather was earl browder, who was the head of the communist party in america. >> yes. >> rose: do i have the right grandfather? >> i got a very unusual family background. my grandfather was the general secretary of the american communist party. before he became the general secretary, he went to russia in
1927, he met my grandmother over there and my father was born in russia and came back here and becomes head of the communist party and runs for president twice on the come mist ticket against roosevelt in 1936, 1940. and then eventually he i can kick him out of the communist party for being too much of a capitalist. >> rose: he thought he could bridge the gap between communism and capitalism. >> he thought he could, stalin didn't think he could and kicked out of the communist party and 1950's began with the mccarthy era and didn't matter whether you were a good or bad communist if you were a communist. >> rose: communists were bad. >> so he spent many years defending himself in front of the house subcommittee on unamerican activities and all sort of terrible things. >> rose: so his grandson what he most wants to be is a capitalist. >> as often happens in any family, i was going through my teenage rebellion and looking around and saying what do i do? i can't grow my hair long or whatever, to offend my family, what can i do to really make them unhappy? and i said well if i come from a country of
communist it best thing i can do is become a capitalist, so that's what did. >> rose: bring me goal to the story of your lawyer. >> after i lived in russia ten years i became the largest largest foreign investor company in their company a and a buying operation, i was flying back from a business trip to london and arrived at the main airport the moscow an instead of whisking me through the passport control, inis ed they stop me, i statistic there drinking my tea for 45 minutes, and started to become strange why i wasn't going, my driver went up to the window to ask them what was going on, and all of a sudden five guards from the border police came, took me away, stuck me in detention overnight, and then expelled me from the country the next day. and declared me a threat to national security. >> rose: and so bring your lawyer into the story. sergei. >> so they kicked me out of russia at this point, i didn't want to be like -- and
liquidated all of my holdings in russia and evacuated all of my staff and i thought that was the end of the story. >> so you liquidated you sold and took the cash out? >> we sold the securities, took the cash out and returned it to our investors, dusted off my hand and started something new. >> rose: and you were okay because you had gone liquid. >> we didn't lose any money. >> i thought that was the end of the story, turned out to be the start of the biggest nightmare you could ever imagine. 18 month after i was kicked out, in june of 2007, 25 police officers from the moscow interior ministry came to my office, raided my office, 25 more officers went to my american law firm and looking for the documents for power investment holding companies which we screfd all of this money, they found all of the documents in our law firm, they didn't know the companies were empty, they seized all of the documents and then the next thing we knew, we didn't own our companies anymore. the documents sees bed at this police had been used to steal our companies. at this point, we hire a young
lawyer, named sergei, he was 36 years old, he worked for this american law firm and he was the smartest guy i knew in moscow, one of these lawyers that can run circles around everybody else. and he was just this really, just the guy you call up at 10:00 o'clock at night, 1:00 in the morning in moscow and he would get up and figure out the problem and by the time you got into the office in the morning, you know, there would be a memo in your in-box just the mobile rely guy we knew and said sergei help us figure this whole thing out. and sergei goes out and investigates and he says the situation is far worse than you can imagine, not only have the police been involved in stealing your companies, but they created a billion dollars of fake contracts that claim your company owes a billion dollars to some three empty shell companies. we said my god that is terrible. he said it gets worse. he said those shell companies then stiewld your companies in court for a billion dollars based on these fake contracts and said well that is horrible, and then what? and he said three lawyers who you didn't
hire showed up in court, but when they want to went to court they pled guilty to a billion dollars of fake court claims. and then immediately the judges stamped a billion dollars, the police went looking for a billion dollars worth of assets all over our banks, and they couldn't find anything, and i said -- and at the point when i saw that the police couldn't find any money because there was no money to find, i said to sergei, wow, they sure went through a lot of efforts for nothing. and sergei said, bill, don't relax this is not the end of the story, the russian stories never end this way. >> rose: in 2009 he went to jail. >> and so what he discovered was that the police working together with organized criminals, had gone to the tax office to the tax authorities of russia and they had basically filed a fraudulent tax refund request for $230 million of taxes that we had paid in the previous year, we paid $230 million of
taxes to the russian government when we sold all of our stocks, the police and these crooks stole $230 million, he figured it out, he testified against the police officers, and one month after he testified, against the police officers three subordinates of one of the officers he testified against came to his house in front of his wife and two children, arrested him, put him in pretrial detention and then started to torture him to get him to withdraw his testimony. >> rose: and were you in communication with him at this time? >> the way we know about this is that search day was the most accurate lawyer i have ever come across and every day, in prison, when they were torturing him, he wrote a complaint about his mistreatment. he wrote 450 complaints about his 358 days in detention. and once a month or so, his lawyer would come to visit and would give him a whole bunch of these handwritten complaints, and his lawyer would file them and then send us copies, so we got from these complaints a sort
of day by day description about how the situation was getting worse and worse and worse and torturing him in the most unpleasant ways, they were putting him in cells with 14 inmates and eight beds leave the lights on 24 hours a day for sleep deprivation, put him in a cell with no heat, no window panes in moscow in december so nearly froze to death, he put him in cell no toilets, just a hole in the floor that sewage would good luck up he lost 40-pound and developed very severe stomach pains and diagnosed as having pan tie advertise and gallstone and needing an urgent operation one week before the operation was due, instead of giving him the operation, the police moved him from the .. prison that had a medical facility to a prison with no medical facilities at all and refused him all medical care. he wrote 20 different requests desperately trying to get medical attention. every one of his requests was either ignored or denied, his health started getting worse and worse and worse and was in
constant agonizing pain, no treat whatsoever, and on the might of november 16th, 2009, he went into critical condition, at that point, they then did decide to move him to a recognize with a hospital. >> rose: did you know he had been moved? >> we only learned about this afterwards when they moved him to a prison with a hospital they didn't take him to the hospital, they put him in an isolation cell, they chained him to a bed and eight riot guards with rubber batons beat him to death, he was 37 years old. >> rose: how did you find out? >> because the russians documented it. the russian documented it we have a form in our possession where the guys signed their names to having participated in the beating with the rubber batons we have a form from the prison governor authorizing the use of rubber batons on the night of november 16th, 2009. >> rose: and then you got a call at night? >> so i got a call. >> rose: at night? >> i got a call at night, we had a number of calls, we got a number of calls and a number of
text messages, both before and after sergei died, before he died, saying things like, history tells us anyone can be killed, quoting michael corleone from the godfather, they started gloating interesting death in prison, extraditions will fall and since then we have been getting all sorts of these calls. >> rose: so this is your crusade now to do what? >> well basically on the morning of november 17th, 2009 the day after he died, i made a vow to myself which is, i am going to go and make sure the guys who killed sergei face justice i will not allow in death to go unanswered. >> rose: you mean the specific people with the ba tons or others. >> no, everybody from the tax rebate fraud, the people who put him in prison, the judges who refused him bail, everybody who played a role and knowingly played a role in torture are. >> rose: so you are going up against russian state. >> with disre a list of 60 people but obviously they are well protected by the russian state. >> rose: tell me how you think you can win. >> well, we said to ourselves no justice inside of russia, maybe there is a possibility of
getting justice outside of russia, how can we do that? this was not a crime of ideology or religion, this was a crime of money. these guys did this crime to steal $230 million and killed sergei to cover it up. and so we said if it is a crime of money they like to spend their money, where do they like to spend their money? here. >> rose: if the united states. so you are going after the money. >> we are going after their ability to travel and their ability to spend their money. and i went to washington in april of 2010, and we began a process to impose industry is a sanctions and as set freezes on the people who killed sergei, and there is something now called the sergei rule of law accountability act which is one of the few pieces of legislation whicwhich is actually moving ity through the congress right now, through the very final stage and in this piece of legislation, it would impose visa sanctions and asset freezes on the people who killed sergei and the people who did the crimes he uncovered and all other gross human rights abuse in other words russia and programs everywhere else in the world with his name on it.
>> bill browder, thank you. >> thank you. >> rose: thank you for joining us, see you next time. >> rose: funding for charlie rose has been provided by the coca-cola company, supporting this program since 2002. and american express:additional funding provided by these funders. and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. be more, pbs