tv This Week With George Stephanopoulos ABC April 10, 2016 10:00am-11:00am EDT
starting right now on "this week" with george stephanopoulos. new york state of mind. after both front-runners lose big in wisconsin. ♪ y'all ready for this >> the raucous race for the white house hits the empire state. for the democrats, it's a fight over who is qualified. >> i've been called a lot of things over the years. but unqualified has not been one of them. >> and who is winning? with bernie picking up states, hillary picking up delegates. bernie sanders and hillary clinton's top strategist, both here live. plus, for the gop, trump's feeling the heat. outorganized by ted cruz, trump shakes up his campaign. but is it too little, too late? and -- ♪ born to one >> -- the boss' boycott. why the rock
a controversial new law in north carolina. from abc news, it's "this week." here now, chief anchor george stephanopoulos. >> good morning. as we come on the air this week, bernie sanders and ted cruz both on a roll. sanders taking the wyoming caucus, his eighth win in nine contests. cruz sweeping all the delegates in colorado yesterday after the big win over donald trump in wisconsin. the chance of a contested convention in cleveland higher than ever. we're going to have more on that ahead. we begin with the democrats. senator sanders is here live in studio. new york ground zero now. and cecilia vega starts us off on broadway. good morning, cecilia. >> reporter: george, that's right. good morning to you. this battle right now is all about new york. it's an empire state showdown. the fight happening on the streets is more heated than ever. >> news bulletin. we just won wyoming. [ cheers and applause ] >> reporter: with his latest win, bernie sanders is on a roll. coming out on top in 7 of the last 8 states.
but despite his 12-point wyoming victory, the vermont senator walked away with the same number of pledged delegates as hillary clinton. and that shows the uphill battle ahead. the superdelegates factored in. those delegates free to support any candidate at the convention. sanders trails by nearly 700. his campaign is now instead focused on the much closer contest for pledged delegates. those delegates won and lost in state primaries. clinton's lead there, much smaller. 250. sanders says the contest is far from over. >> we are on the way to pulling off the biggest political upset in the modern history of america. [ cheers and applause ] >> reporter: and his team is threatening a convention fight if clinton doesn't clinch the magic number of pledged delegates before the summer showdown. the most delegates up for grabs so far, 247, in new york. the next state up.
the fight here, nastier than ever. a war of words over who is qualified to be president. you said, quote unquote, she's unqualified. this morning, you said she's qualified. so which is it? >> in a sense, it's both. >> reporter: it can't be both, can it? >> yes, it can. in a sense. >> reporter: bill clinton pulled into the fight, too. defending his wife's use of the word superpredator. in the '90s, when confronted this week by black lives matter protesters. >> i don't know how you would characterize the gang leaders who got 13-year-old kids hopped up on crack and sent them out on to the street to murder other african-american children. maybe you thought they were good citizens? she didn't. she didn't. >> reporter: overnight, at the apollo theater, sanders called for him to apologize. >> the president owes the american people an apology for trying to defend what is indefensible. [ applause ] >> reporter: as the democratic rivals compete to show who is more of a new yorker,
clinton laughing off her struggle to enter a bronx subway station. >> will you just fix these metro card slots in the subway? [ laughter ] >> yeah, yeah. >> it took me, like, five swipes. i mean, you've got to fix that. >> reporter: and overnight, hillary clinton says she needs to win big here in new york to secure the nomination. unify the party, and move on to focusing on republicans. but bernie sanders says he's in this race to win it. neither side is backing down on this one. >> okay, cecilia. senator sanders joins us in the studio. great to see you in person. >> great to be with you, george. >> wyoming, another win for you. a little bit of a streak going. but as cecilia pointed out, you tied secretary clinton in delegates so you're no closer to getting the nomination. >> from wyoming. but here's the point,
in the last 3 1/2 weeks, we have reduced her margin by a third. i think the proper number is about 220 delegates or so that we're now behind. we're moving to new york state. we're moving to pennsylvania. heading out west to california, oregon, a lot of big states out there. we believe we have the momentum. we believe that the polling is showing that we're closing the gap. actually, as you may have noticed, of the last three national polls out there, we've defeated secretary clinton in two of them. i think the momentum is with us. we've come really, really long way. i think we can win this thing. >> you say 220. the a.p. says 250 her lead. is your position, the position of your campaign that unless she has enough pledged delegates to guarantee the nomination, just pledged delegates, that you're going to take a floor fight at the convention? >> here's what i think. at the end of the day, what democrats all over the country want to make sure is that somebody like a donald trump or a ted cruz does not end up in the white house. and i think what more and more
democrats are saying is that bernie sanders is the stronger candidate. >> she's getting more votes. >> well, she's getting more votes. a lot of that came from the ere, we do a lot better out against trump and the other republicans. almost every instance. not every one, than she does. the reason is, we both get a lot of democrats. i got a lot more independents than she does. i think you're going to see a lot of democrats saying, look, what's most important is making sure that we defeat trump or cruz or whoever. bernie sanders is the strongest candidate. >> we saw the exchange with cecilia vega over where or not secretary clinton was qualified. did your emotion get the best of you? >> look, here's what i think. it's very clear. i'm sure you got the press releases from the clinton people. after we won wyoming, there was a change in tone on the part of the clinton people. they said, we're not going to be very nice to bernie sanders anymore. we're getting beaten every week. we're going to start beating him up
we're going to new york city. their tone has changed. they used the word or their surrogates have used the word on whether i'm unqualified. >> she didn't say it. >> she didn't quite say that. her surrogates implied that. and all that i meant by that is, if you vote for the war in iraq, the worst foreign policy blunder in the history of modern america. you take through your superpac tens and tens of millions from wall street and other special interests. if you support almost every disastrous trade agreement in the last 30 years. >> president obama supported that. is he not qualified? >> no, he's very qualified. my point is it's a question of judgment. it is a question of judgment. fracing. secretary clinton supports a $12 minimum wage when the world is clear we want a $15 minimum wage. so i think the issue more is judgment. does she have the experience? is she extremely intelligent, we all know she is. >> let's go on to some of the other issues that came up this week. we saw you saying that president clinton should apologize.
for the statement he made to the black lives protester. the underlying issue was the crime bill which you supported. do you have second thoughts? >> well, that bill was one of these bills that had good things in it and it had bad things in it. if i had voted against that bill, you would be asking me, bernie, why did you vote on the ban against assault weapons that was in that bill. >> that was in the senate bill. the final passage. not the original bill. >> it wasn't a bill i had to vote for. the -- the violence against women's act. you would say, bernie, aren't you concerned about domestic violence? if you check the record, i was on the floor, talking about many of the negative aspects, including the death penalty, which i strongly oppose. the bottom line now, george, is that we need major criminal justice reform in a broken system. as americans, we should not accept that we have more people in jail. we need reforms of local police departments. all over this
president, to work very aggressively on that. >> what exactly do you think president clinton should apologize for? >> we all knew back then what that language meant. that was referring to young blacks. i don't think in this country, um, elected officials or leaders should be using that type of terminology. >> also on this issue, the families of the victims of gun violence are calling on you to apologize. held a press conference here in new york on friday. and erica smielgeski, whose mother was killed in the sandy hook shooting, had this to say. >> it is completely phony that sanders didn't have the decency to respond to us when asked for an apology. instead, he used us as political tools in order to attack hillary clinton. i urge senator sanders to respond to the families of gun violence about his record of support for gunmakers and to make an apology. >> will you? >> let me deal with that.
um, i get a little bit upset when -- one of the great horrific tragedies in modern american history, unspeakable, becomes a political issue. so let me just simply say this. bernie sanders comes from a state that has virtually no gun control. i have a d-minus, a d-minus voting record from the nra. when i ran for congress in 1988, i had to take on all the gun people who disagreed with me when i said we should ban assault weapons in this country. i strongly support president obama's effort to improve the instant background checks so we make sure that people who should not have guns don't get guns. i strongly support doing away with this gun show loophole that allows people to circumvent the law. and
that allows people to buy guns legally and sell them to criminals. so i will do everything that i can. and by the way, coming from a state, a rural state, that has no gun control, i think i'm in a position to create the kind of consensus -- >> they're talking about the issue of your vote to shield gunmakers from liability. >> no, i'm not. in the sense, look, and the american people disagree. you're a gun shop owner in northern vermont. you sell somebody a gun legally. go guy comes in, goes through the background check, sells him a gun. this guy shoots somebody. should you be sued for legally selling him a gun? you're a gun manufacturer, you do the same. on the other hand, somebody walks in and says, give me 10,000 rounds of ammunition and 14 assault weapons, should you know that there's something going on? you should. and you should be sued for not responding or calling the police to that. so, that is my -- that is my view. i understand that not everybody agrees with me. >> let's talk about eco
you called out secretary clinton yesterday for failing to endorse increasing social security benefits. and the tax increase to pay for it. most people have to supplement social security even with the increases you're talking about. so, what do you say to people who saved? you said the wall street -- the people who need to save. you said wall street is based on a business model of fraud. is it too broken for the people to invest in the stock market? >> you're asking me two questions. let me get back to social security. there are millions of disabled veterans and seniors trying to make it on $11,000, $12,000 a year social security. and they can't. the republicans in many instances want to cut social security. i want to expand social security. what i said yesterday is, we have legislation and it has good support that says you lift the cap on taxable income. right now, somebody makes $1 million. somebody makes $118,000, they pay the same into it. if you lift the cap of $250,000 and above, we can improve benefits for seniors e
$16,000 a year or less by $1300 a year. not insignificant and extend the life of social security for 58 years. that is my view. now that is a very similar view to what obama said in 2008 when he ran against clinton. she disagreed with him then. i'm asking her now, do you believe we should extend the life of social security and expand benefits? she's not responded to that. >> secondly, though, how about the broader issue of investing in the stock market? is the entire model so broke that people should stay away? >> i don't think people call me up as a financial adviser as to what they should do with their money. this is what i believe. we bailed out wall street, against my vote, by the way. because, as you'll recall, they were quote unquote too big to fail. today, 3 out of the 4 largest banks in this country are bigger than they were then. when we wail ee eed -- bailed tm
fail. the largest six banks have assets of 58% of the gdp of america. you're quite right. i believe the business model is fraught, as you know, a couple of months ago, goldman sachs reached a $5 billion set ltment with the united states government because, in fact, they were selling wort lest packages and sub prime mortgages. people do what they want with their money. i believe we'll have a better and stronger financial system if we break up the major banks on wall street. >> finally, the tax filing deadline is this week. the issue of tax returns has come up in the election. secretary clinton has released eight years of tax returns. you have released one year's summary. will you release more? >> sure we are. absolutely. i know the clinton people are raising. it will be fairly boring. i mean, the truth is it will be as my wife actually does our taxes. she's been very busy doing a great job on the campaign. yes, we'll get them out. there will be nothing there that will shock you. sorry to tell you, it will not be a big story. >> not like trump's returns? >> i don't know what are in his. mine are pretty bo
>> new york must win? >> i have been asked that question from iowa, new hampshire, every state in the country. every state is a must win in a sense. clearly, new york has a lot of delegates. we're working really hard here. we want to win. we think we got a shot to win. if we win here it will be a major boost to pennsylvania, other states out west. >> senator sanders, thank you for coming in. >> thank you. move on to the clinton campaign. cecilia vega showed hillary clinton making fun of herself for the subway snafu this week. "saturday night live" jumped in, too. >> the new york city subway is the best way to get around. ow. it's been awhile. this is a working metro card. i'll just -- go in the old-fashioned way. i'll take a cab. cab is the best way to get around.
chair of the clinton campaign, john podesta, he joins us here in the studio. let's start with the question i just asked senator sanders. new york even more must win for hillary clinton, right? >> we're going win in new york. no question. he's competing vigorously here. so are we. people in new york remember what a great job she did as a united states senator here. whether that was reconstructing lower manhattan on investing in upstate new york. or getting the -- health care that the national guard people of new york need. they know she's someone who doesn't make promises she can't keep. she delivered. so i think we're going to win new york. >> what's behind the current slump then? eight contests out of the last nine? >> well, look, i mean, he had -- this is the best territory for him on the calendar. most of those were western caucuses. but, when you look at what's happened overall, in this election, she's gotten 2.4
million votes more than bernie sanders. 1 million more than donald trump, by the way. we have 220 pledged delegate lead. we came out of february with a delegate lead. we added to that in march. and i believe we'll add to that again in april. we have six contests coming up on the east coast. they're more diverse. they're primaries, not caucuses. has he done well in the western caucuses? yes. we think that when you get to a bigger state, diverse states, primary states, we're going to do very well. i think we'll end up april in a better position than we ended up march. >> could there be something deeper going on? senator sanders talks about these issues. trade deals. wall street influence. the vote on iraq. is secretary clinton out of step with the broader electorate? on those issues? >> no. i think that -- he cherry-picks. but he came and campaigned against her on the trade issue in michigan. we lost that narrowly.
to build a future that will create good jobs. i will have your back. i'll reject bad trade deals. i'll invest in manufacturing. i want to see wages growing by having equal pay. and she's put forward a plan that caused her to win those five states, primary states, including ohio, illinois, missouri, north carolina, and florida. that's where we built up the very large pledged delegate lead. >> we saw senator sanders not backing down on the call for president clinton to apologize for the engaging with a protester. >> i think the president got a little hot. but i think that the charge is misled because i think what the president has done is said that there were unintended consequences of the crime bill. he regrets that. we need to move on. we need criminal justice reform. that was the first
hillary gave. and you asked him again, do you regret -- he voted for this bill. he doesn't regret it. in 2006, he campaigned for the senate saying, i'm tough on crime. what was his evidence? i voted for the '94 crime bill. i think he's air-brushing history. he won't do what the president has done, what hillary has reiterated. which is to say, that this thing has had -- made the problems worse in some ways. we need to fix it. and that's why she's put out a comprehensive reform to end the era of mass incarceration. and to get the job done when it comes to dealing with the problem of overincarceration, what that's done to communities all across america. >> how about the issue of social security benefits? that does seem to be a clear difference now between secretary clinton and senator sanders. >> hillary said we need to strengthen and expand social security benefits. she said there's different ways to fund it.
it clearly. >> one is to raise the -- the cap on earned -- on wage income. the other is to go after taxing investment income. either way, the wealthy pay to expand social security. those are two different ways. she's said she's open to either one of them. but there is a difference when it comes to social security. she said she wants to concentrate the work to get rid of the gender discrimination in social security. social security program was created in the 1930s when women weren't in the workforce and they're discriminated against when their spouse dies. they're discriminated against because when they're taking time to be caregivers, they're not credited with any benefit. that's i think one of the things she's pointed to. he hasn't said a word about that. >> the polls show that the number of democrats still question whether secretary
clinton is honest and trustworthy is as high as it's ever been. isn't it getting late in the game to try to figure that out? >> we're here in new york. people had questions about her when she ran in new york. they had no questions about her once she got into office. as she's said, maybe she's -- you know, better at doing the job than campaigning for the job. i think that what she can do, what she needs to do, go out, answer people's questions. be out and campaign. that's what she's doing here. she enjoys campaigning in new york. she's been all over the city. all over upstate. she'll continue to do that until april 19th when the primary comes. >> probably need to clear away the questions about the e-mail server as well. have you made any arrangements for interviews with the fbi? and as a practical political matter, don't you have to get that wrapped up before the convention? >> that's up to mr. comey.
she offered last summer to be interviewed. if that's what they liked. if that's what they wanted. i think, as has come out now, other secretary powell, top aide to secretary rice did the same thing. if they want to talk to her, they can. they haven't asked. >> thank you, john podesta. >> thank you, george. up next, inside the fight for delegates on the ground in colorado. and the battle inside the trump call pain. and the power house "roundtable" weighs in. i'm always there for my daughter. for the little things. and the big milestones. and just like i'm there for her, pacific life is there to help protect me and my family so i can enjoy all life's moments. pacific life. helping families for over 145 years achieve
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if we go into a contested convention, we're going to have a ton of delegates. donald is going to have a ton of delegates. and it's going to be a battle in cleveland, to see who can earn a majority of the delegates earned by the people. and let me tell you. in that scenario, i think we go in with an overwhelming advantage. in the last three weeks, we have beaten donald trump in ten consecutive elections in four separate states. [ applause ] >> senator ted cruz in las vegas last night. after a big week, stopping trump in wisconsin, sweeping all the delegates in colorado. it's now hand-to-hand combat for every delegate. david wright is in colorado springs for an up-close look at the unusual battle. >> reporter: a contested convention is now almost a
certainty. >> god bless the great state of colorado. >> reporter: senator ted cruz is banking on it. quietly in regional caucuses. in state party conventions like this one in colorado. elections that only party activists attend, he's on a roll. >> if we continue to stand united, we're going to win this republican nomination. >> reporter: it's a strategy that puts a premium on organization and ideology. searching out the true believers and making sure they find their way to cleveland. case in point, colorado. >> 292 for cruz. >> reporter: here in colorado, there's no republican primary. the delegate selection process here is more of a cattle call. on saturday, 600 wannabe delegates had ten seconds each to make their case. we gave a couple of them a practice run. get set. go. >> in the political system, the game of chess needs to be played by a player. which is donald trp.
the rest of the -- um -- >> reporter: oh, oh, oh, oh! set, go. >> my name is jimmy. i'm running for national delegates supporting ted cruz because we need a reliable, principled conservative in the white house. >> reporter: seven seconds. the cruz people seem to have this stuff down. the trump campaign, not so much. this is donald trump's cheat sheet for the colorado state convention. his list of names of people he would like to send to cleveland. and abc's ryan struck sand katherine falters, off-air reporters, have been digging into it. you found some problems. >> the problem, david, is that five of the names on the list are incorrectly matched with numbers from the official state party list. >> reporter: so if the trump supporters vote the trump slate, they're going to be voting for some cruz people. >> ted cruz's slate and john kasich slate, there were no errors on theirs. >> reporter: at a contested convention, some pledged delegates are eventually released to
candidates. that's why john sununu is here for kasich. even know none of the colorado delegates are pledged to him. are you making promises or friends? >> this is about making friends. building relationships. >> reporter: those friendships could pay off if the convention goes to a second or third round of balloting. it seems like cruz is outmaneuvering trump here. >> i would really say it's the gop outmaneuvering donald trump. >> reporter: the fix is in. >> the fix is in in colorado. >> reporter: but at a contested convention, it's a jump ball. the republican nominee could well end up being none of the above. for "this week" david wright, abc news. colorado springs. and let's get more on this now from abc's tom llamas who covers the trump campaign. the trump campaign getting outmaneuvered on the ground. a big shakeup. mr. trump bringing in an old republican hand to take charge of the delegates. it's bigger than that.
the way it was described to me is that the campaign outgrew the leadership team. it was no secret that trump was operating and winning, we should say, with a very thin staff. but right when the idea of a contested convention came up and that was going to become a reality, trump realized he needed to bring in a hired gun. the nail in the coffin was the loss in wisconsin. a source inside the campaign tells me trump needed to lose wisconsin to win the nomination. and by that, they meant that he had to bring in some professionals, some experts who knew how to deal with a contested convention and the strategy going forward. manafort has said he answers to the boss. a clear shot against cory lewandowski. who does not have the power or influence he had when the campaign started. manafort has been described to me as winston wolf from "pulp fiction." that's harvey keitel's character. he shows up in a tuxedo and says the famous line, i solve problems. >> this is paul manafort. he's worked on campaigns going back to 1976. gerald ford. the last time we s
boston globe." this morning. basically mocking out a first day of a donald trump presidency. what they say it would look like. deportations would begin. markets would sink. a new libel targeting the press. any reaction yet from the trump camp? >> not yet. donald trump does not like to be mocked. he likes to be taken seriously. it's a fascinating front page cover. it takes place a year from today if trump were to be president, every article on the front page is a shot at trump. he clearly would not be happy with that. >> we've been seeing less of trump. fewer tweets going out overnight. fewer press conferences. he's canceled his weekend in california. is this a sign of things to come or just a break? >> people working with the new york strategy tell me he's going to be on the campaign this week. he'll have a lot of events. they're expecting huge rallies, especially one a week from today. that said, maybe possibly with manafort coming in, all those
meetings have taken place, he hasn't had enough time to have press conferences and do interviews as he has wanted to. everything should be done with strategy. i think we'll see that going forward. >> okay. tom llamas, thank you very much. up next, "the roundtable" weighs in on the trump shakeup and what to expect in cleveland. and later, the new law in north carolina that has big business and bruce springsteen joining forces. those new glasses? they are. do i look smarter? yeah, a little. you're making money now, are you investing? well, i've been doing some research. let me introduce you to our broker. how much does he charge? i don't know. okay. uh, do you get your fees back if you're not happy? (dad laughs) wow, you're laughing. that's not the way the world works. well, the world's changing. are you asking enough questions about the way your wealth is managed? wealth management, at charles schwab.
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republican voters are setting records with voter turnout. >> participation up more than 57%. >> now the time has come for our generation. >> i'm asking you to believe. >> so that we can create greater opportunity for every american tomorrow. >> and that's why working together. >> we can change this nation. >> and we will make america great again. >> these candidates are going to come together and unify in cleveland and get behind that nominee. >> join us! so what's the bet it will turn out like that? that's the rnc video from cleveland. we're going to talk about it now on our "roundtable." joined by jon karl, kristen soltis anderson. now an abc news contributor. errol lewis of new york one. new york 1 political anchor. alex castellanos from the chair
of purple strategies. let me get that out. also a gop strategist. and our own cokie roberts. and jon, let me begin with you. this whole idea of contested convention. clearly, the odds of that went up this week. we have new polls coming out just this morning from fox news. donald trump with more than 30-point lead here in new york. more than 20-point lead in pennsylvania. both over john kasich, by the way, not ted cruz. and the trump campaign, this new trump campaign says they can still wrap it up before cleveland. >> trump is about to go on a roll. not just those states. connecticut, rhode island, delaware. all places likely strong trump, weak ted cruz. he has a problem overall. outside of this region. he's been at 35% of the vote almost from the beginning. he won the new hampshire primary with 35% of the vote. he lost the wisconsin primary with 35% of the vote. trump, to close the deal, needs to do better than he's been doing. he'll clean house in new york. we know that. he'll clean house in pennsylvania. we know that. he's going to need to go
there and win much bigger than he has in places like indiana and california. >> and he'll have to not make a lot of mistakes. that's been his problem up until now. not just the states ahead. it's what he says. >> the mistakes. but also, kristen. the cruz campaign is winning this below-the-radar fight for every single delegate even as trump complains about taking delegates who were supposed to be loyal to trump. >> trump is trying to make the case that the rules are not correct and that this is going to hurt him. but what cruz is doing so well is cruz understands the rules. he's hired a team that gets how the system works. they're able to play moneyball with the delegate situation. they can look at a state like new york or california, where huge sums of delegates go to individual congressional districts. where there are not many republicans. they can figure out how to piece together delegates. in places where, say trump is up by a lot here in new york. maybe ted cruz can pick up a district here and there. >> i was with him up in the
got heckled by a couple of people. he's hoping not to win the state overall. we saw he's in third place. but to try to go into a few districts and steal just a couple of delegates. >> that's right. that's where the analytics come in handy. and some of those districts, maybe the one you were visiting, there's like 13,000 republicans. that has the same three delegates as a district with a quarter of a million or half a million republicans. the cruz folks have figured out what is the best use of their time. you're seeing them in some orthodox religious communities, some of the other districts where there are just a handful of republicans, that you can almost call all of them up and ask them to come out for you. it's a good use of his time. is he going to win new york? i don't know his people would say that. but could he pick up delegates? that's what this is all about. >> and alex castellanos, assuming donald trump doesn't get to the 1237, ted cruz is clearly in second. play out what it will look like in cleveland.
>> no guns. >> you have to respect the will of the voters. we have had 39 primaries and caucuses, a year of campaigning. millions of votes. in their wisdom, republican voters have decided not to give any of these yo-yo's 1237 votes. we're going to go in, trump is going to be short. he'll recede probably on the second ballot. >> cruz campaign says the first ballot is the best ballot for trump. >> the only value ted cruz has right now is -- he's the guy republicans didn't want when this whole thing started. guess what happens? cruz's value evaporates when trump is no longer a threat. there's a very good chance this convention does not turn to ted cruz. and then we get into a devolutionary process. trump people say, i don't want a cruz guy. cruz people say, i don't want a trump guy. you begin to look for the lest threatening candidate. >> that's brought cruz and trump together. the ultimate nominee should be one of the candidates in the you can't start there. >> look at96
convention. we had riots. what happened going into that convention was mccarthy had the most votes going into that convention. and a coalition of mccarthy and mcgovern really had the clearly the will of the people for the democratic party. humphrey gets the nomination. there were riots in the streets. and i think that you, you know, you have a similar situation. >> a republican riot is republicans giving up their country club memberships. we don't work that way. >> donald trump has nearly 2 million votes more than ted cruz. that number is almost certainly going to be padded. it will be bigger. he'll have more delegates. he's getting outhustled on the selection of the delegates. i think what trump didn't realize, and a lot of the republican voters don't realize, is the votes that they cast in the primaries and caucuses had nothing to do with selecting the people that will be on the floor of the convention.
>> is it too late for trump to catch up in this delegate fight? >> this sort of thing means a ton of effort, a ton of work, meeting with people to say they're on your team. i don't think a lot of the folks on the team are the country club style republicans. look at the folks earlier from colorado. those folks pledged to cruz, they'll be with cruz no matter how many rounds of balloting goes on. this is really going to be fascinating. and it's going to come down to personal relationships. >> but it doesn't start with what people want at the end, which is whoever got the most votes, well, maybe they should get the nomination. it starts with what's next. trump may fall short. cruz will go in with about 700 votes. that's 500 votes away from 1237. that's a long way. that's a land war. like world war i in the trenches. it may not be either of those guys. >> people don't understand that these are party decisions. that's the thing. >> because they haven't been in more than 50 years. >> i keep getting asked, what does the constitution say about this? nothing. it's not in the constitution.
>> let's talk about the democrats. we heard john podesta say hillary clinton will win in new york. the new fox news poll shows her up by 16 points over bernie sanders. also up by 11 points in pennsylvani pennsylvania. errol lewis, you know better than anybody. is it clinton country? >> it is clinton country to a certain extent. we have about a dozen congressional districts inside new york city with all or part of new york city. the same thing applies. we have a proportionate delegate system. sanders people are making inroads in one district after another. you flip it upstate. upstate, a part of the rural, allegedly more conservative districts. some of them border vermont. they know and like bernie sanders. places like woodstock. where there's a counterculture that really becomes part of the equation here as well. she'll have to fight for every single vote. she's got a -- a lot of work that is being put in. you know, in advance of this
debate that's coming up on thursday. it's in new york city. it is really intended to reach everybody in the state. and, the clinton team, i think you have seen the frustration and the energy they've put into this. though they think they have a durable delegate lead, the bragging rights that bernie sanders would have as he told you a few minutes ago, would be enormous if he should come close or upset her. >> that's what i want to brink to cokie roberts. it's still -- you look at the math. even for a new york loss for hillary clinton, she still has it all wrapped up looking at the math. but boy, what a change in the narrative. >> a huge change. a difficult one for her. he does have the momentum. he's right about that. even though it is little bitty caucuses in western states. and i think that's been hard for her to handle. i think the campaign has had one problem after another. and president clinton's outburst didn't help, certainly. it's true she knows new york cold. i mean, when i -- i cove
>> except for the subway system. >> when she was running, though, the first time. she knew every pothole in the state and she would go and blow people away with the amount of information she had. >> and the math ends for bernie sanders if he loses new york. >> it is a must win for him. no doubt. even if he wins, the delegate math is incredibly difficult. he wins wyoming and gets a tie in delegates. doesn't really help him. what a story for sanders to be where he is. i just talked to one of his top people. he said in the beginning, i thought we could win new hampshire. he's won 16, 17 states. he may end up winning more states than she does. >> alex wants to drink what he's drinking. >> red bull. it must be. at his age, doing what he's doing. is this going to be a shotgun wedding for hillary clinton? are the democrat parties going the marry her because it has to but their heart belongs to someone else? it has been true a lot. in a general election, that matters. that's
>> what is most remarkable, i think, is that sanders continues to build steam. it's not as though he got through iowa and new hampshire and then faded after not doing well other places. he's raised 50% more than hillary clinton over $40 million more in the last two months. >> we spent so much time talking about the transformations and the conflict within the republican party. there's something similar. it is a little bit less rowdy on the democrat side. >> a whole lot less rowdy. >> we'll see. >> but one big difference though is that both hillary clinton and bernie sanders are looked on as favorable. by an overwhelming majority of democrats. that's all we have time for today. thank you all very much. up next, bruce springsteen boycotts north carolina after that state passes a new law pitting religious liberty against discrimination. that debate is next. pitting religious liberty against discrimination.
and there you see protesters at the doorstep of the mississippi governor this week. taking on a new state law allowing businesses to refuse service to gays and lesbians on religious grounds. mississippi the latest state to e act this kind of law, on the heels of a similar effort in north carolina that requires transgendered people to use the bathrooms based on the
on their birth certificates. supporters say these laws are preserving religious liberty and decency. we'll take on the debate after this report from ron claiborne. ♪ baby we were born to run >> reporter: the boss often belts out that he was born to run. this week, north carolina is the place he's running from. bruce springsteen cancelling a concert there. proi testing that the state's new law, specifying that sex on a birth certificate determines what bathroom a person can use discriminates against transgender people. saying in a statement, some things are more important than a rock show. and this fight against prejudice and bigotry is one of them. for band guitarist stevie van zandt, the boycott wasn't a hard decision. >> you have to hurt people economically to have them do the right thing morally. >> reporter: north carolina is one state that's enacted so called religious freedom laws. mississippi is the most recent. >> honest people who have a legitimate objection to what's going on a religious objection
>> reporter: many of the laws allow businesses to refuse service on religious grounds to gay or transgender people. restrict communities from passing anti-discrimination laws and specify who can use which bathroom facilities. according to the human rights campaign, nearly 200 variations of these bills in 34 states have been introduced since last summer. in response, big business has reacted decisively. more than 120 businesses calling on north carolina to repeal its new law. >> georgia is a welcoming state. >> reporter: in neighboring georgia, the governor vetoed similar legislation there, after boycotts were threatened. >> i do not think that we have to discriminate against anyone to protect the faith-based community in georgia. >> reporter: but with new laws being enacted, this latest battle in the culture wars is now headed back to the courts. for "this week," ron claiborne, abc news, new york. >> and we'
supporter of the laws, kristen wagner. and opponent john corvino, chair of the philosophy department of wayne state university. let me begin with you. respond to the boycott from bruce springsteen. who say this is a license to discriminate. >> that's not true. we should dispel the notion of service. there's no evidence that those who identify as gay or lesbian have been denied service. there's evidence of how these laws are being used against real people, creative professionals, who simply want to live peacefully and consistently and create custom work that is consistent with their religious beliefs. all americans should have the right to live consistently with their religious beliefs. this is not about any type of denial of service. but the ability to engage in creative profession. consistent with one's convictions. >> you use that phrase creative profession.
photographer, be forced to work at a wedding they don't want to work at? >> well, one of the things that's important to recognize is these laws are not just about the creative professions. law in mississippi covers discrimination the housing, employment. it covers discrimination on the basis of -- anytime a person offers a religious objection. when you think about it, people have religious objections not just to same-sex marriage. some people have religious objections to interfaith marriage. some people have them to remarriage after divorce. people should, of course, have the right to believe what they want to believe and practice their religious beliefs. when they enter the public arena when they're opening a business that is open to the public, it's not right for them to discriminate in services and goods. >> kristen, i saw you shaking your head. i want to give you a chance to respond. there's also a provision in the north carolina bill that strips the ability for people to sue under the state discrimination law.
gender, religion, you no larger have a basic remedy. >> that's absolutely not true. that's not the case. first of all, if we want to talk about what these laws do, north carolina specifically, there are two components to the north carolina law. one is a common sense provision that would restrict men from accessing girls' locker rooms. it's for safety, privacy. security of women, children, and our men. we don't want to have to undress in front of someone who is the opposite biological sex. >> you brought that up. how is that going to be enforced. you have to go back to -- you can only use the birth bathroom that is of the sex that is on your birth certificate. >> these laws have been passed in other states to allow men to access the women's restroom. those laws are misused. and they violate the safety and security of people. we should have a reasonable expectation of privacy to go
to undress in front of someone of the opposite biological sex. it's common sense. >> what's the answer to that, john? >> the idea that this is about safety and security,s the like when somebody says they ate all the ice cream in order to make room in the freezer. that's obvious it's not the real reason. this is about discrimination. particularly against transgender people. our nation's history of protecting religious liberty has been about protecting marginalized groups. protecting people of minority faiths against the majority who try to marginalize them. instead, we have a perversion of the notion of religious liberty to further marginalize people who are already vulnerable. there are absolutely no cases of transgender people trying to use these laws in order to commit assault or threaten people's safety in bathrooms. there are many cases of transgender people suffering bullying, and assault, and violence because they can't have a safe and comfortable batoo
>> kristen? >> that's not true. there are multiple cases of those who may not be transgender but those men using these laws to gain access to women and children in restrooms. >> how are they using these laws? how are -- in a man goes into a restroom to assault somebody, that's against the law. that has nothing to do with prohibiting transgender people who just want a safe and comfortable place to use a bathroom. from using the bathroom that matches their gender identity. >> then they can use a bathroom in a private facility. just as everyone can. these laws are gender neutral. they're not discriminating on the basis of how one identifies. they're saying you go to a restroom or a private facility and have a reasonable expectation. i want to get to the real victims. >> i wish we could.
we're out of time. we have to come back to this issue. thank you both very much for your time this morning.
>> this week in defense news, responding to potential changes for 30-year-old legislation at the pentagon. to combat a at how cyber security threat. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] ♪ >> welcome to defense news. headlines,k's top the f 35 joint strike fighter will make its debut at two major areas chose this summer. f-35's appearance at the royal international air tend to show will demonstrate -- air tattoo