tv Full Measure With Sharyl Attkisson ABC June 18, 2017 10:00am-10:30am EDT
sharyl: do republican leaders have an appetite to do the kind of oversight that needs to be done? rep. chaffetz: no, no. no, i mean the reality is, there aren't very many people that want to play offense. sharyl: after eight and a half years on an upward trajectory in washington, d.c., congressman jason chaffetz of utah has suddenly and quite unexpectedly pulled himself out of the game. just the way you describe it, it's troubling. is congress broken? rep. chaffetz: congress doesn't stand up for itself. i think it's really lost its way. they say, oh, we'll use the power of the purse. that doesn't work. first of all, they never do cut funding. scott: from the cold war's dividing line, the berlin wall, to the epic relic of espionage, checkpoint charli, germany has a long history of keeping
guido steinberg: we have had two dictatorships where intelligence and police were merged in the notorious gestapo, the secret state police in the third reich, they don't want strong intelligence services. sharyl: do you have an official title? ivanka trump: yes, i'm an advisor to the president. sharyl: and on father's day, the first daughter reflects on the father-in-chief. ivanka trump: so it was the first time that you had 54 muslim and arab leaders come together and highlight the problem and agree to work collectively towards a solution. so, it was a remarkable, a remarkable experience and i'm incredibly proud of my father for having been able to accomplish that. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] ♪
sharyl: welcome to "full measure." i'm sharyl attkisson. just a couple of months ago, we profiled congressman jason chaffetz, the republican chairman of the powerful house oversight committee, which was poised to dig deep on wide-ranging investigations into government mischief. a few weeks later, chaffetz abruptly resigned from congress. we asked the oversight man what changed his mind. he told me it's more a matter of what hasn't changed. i started the interview asking him how he broke the news to his party leadership. rep. jason chaffetz: i called speaker ryan first, and when i talked to him, he wanted to try to talk me out of it, and i interrupted him, interrupted him and i said, paul, i'm not asking for permission, i'm telling you that jason and julie chaffetz made this decision. i didn't, i don't report to him. i
i got hired by the people in utah so it was. sharyl: did he treat you a little bit like you worked for him? rep. chaffetz: well, he was just "please on this, let's talk about it, let's get together," and i said, "look, we've already decided." it's just, it just wasn't really his decision and i didn't need his input, quite frankly. sharyl: after eight and a half years on an upward trajectory in washington, d.c., congressman jason chaffetz of utah has suddenly and quite unexpectedly pulled himself out of the game. some people might think this is a great time to be a republican chairman of an important committee because republicans control the house, they're the majority in the senate, and they hold the president's office. that means, you would think, that federal agencies can't stonewall investigations of spending, waste, fraud, and abuse. rep. chaffetz: the reality is, sadly, i don't see much difference between the trump administration and the obama
i thought there would be this, these floodgates would open up with all the documents we wanted from the department of state, the department of justice, the pentagon. in many ways, it's almost worse because we're getting nothing, and that's terribly frustrating and, with all due respect, the attorney general has not changed at all. i find him to be worse than what i saw with loretta lynch in terms of releasing documents and making things available. i just, that's my experience, and that's not what i expected. sharyl: what were some of the investigations that this committee was stalled on that you hoped could be picked up now, that's not been able to happen in terms of documents not provided by federal agencies? rep. chaffetz: we have everything from the hillary clinton email investigation, which is really one of the critical things. there was the investigation into the irs. and one that was more than 7 years old is fast and furious. i mean, we have been in court trying to pry those documents out of the department of justice and still to this day, they will not give us those documents.
and at the state department, nothing. stone cold silence. sharyl: to what do you attribute that? rep. chaffetz: i think if, if we went to the senior most people, even the president himself, they would be pulling their hair out and they would hate to hear that, but within the bowels of the organization, they just seem to circle the wagons and think, oh, we just, we can just wait you out. we can just wait you out. sharyl: well, they do. rep. chaffetz: they do. sharyl: republicans were very upset in the last few years over the irs commissioner, john koskinen, who they said allowed destruction of documents and investigations and other things. this committee, i believe, even called for him to be impeached. he's still irs commissioner even though republicans are now in charge of pretty much everything. why is that? rep. chaffetz: now look, you have more than 50 republicans pleading with president trump to release him, to let him go, fire him, or at least encourage him to retire. no, he's still there. no changes. nobody was fired. nobody was prosecuted. nobody
we tried to issue subpoenas, we tried to hold people in contempt and the obama administration said, no, and the trump administration came in and did zero. nothing. nothing changed. sharyl: do republican leaders have an appetite to do the kind of oversight that needs to be done? rep. chaffetz: no, i mean the reality is, there aren't very many people that want to play offense. there aren't many people who say, look, we have a duty and an obligation to fulfill the oversight responsibility that was put in place at the very founding of our country. sharyl: just the way you describe it, it's troubling. is congress broken? rep. chaffetz: congress doesn't stand up for itself. i think it's really lost its way. they say, "oh, we'll use the power of the purse." that doesn't work. first of all, they never do cut funding. even getting people to come up and testify before congress, the obama administration, at the end of their term, they got so brazen they stopped sending people up. they just didn't care. and there was no way to enforce that, and until that changes, the legislative branch is going to get weaker and weaker.
sharyl: on "full measure," we recently exposed the little-known party system on capitol hill where democrats and republicans are pressed to fundraise for their respective parties to pay six and seven figure dues, often soliciting donations on public time from the very special interests they're supposed to regulate. does this mean immediately you have to stop trying to raise money? rep. chaffetz: oh, i love that part of it. sharyl: party dues, campaign funds? rep. chaffetz: look, as a position, as a chairman of a committee, plus what i have to do with my own campaign, i have to raise about a million dollars a year, maximum individual contribution is $2700. sharyl: that's a lot of phone calls. rep. chaffetz: that's a lot of phone calls, and a lot of travel, you're putting in literally 16 hour days, and then it's the weekend, and guess what you've got to do. get on a plane and fly to north carolina or texas or california or new york, and go raise and beg for money, and that consumes the weekend, and the next thing you know, you've got to be back. as a chairman, i've got to be back sunday night and then you've been at home for maybe 5 or 6 hours.
sharyl: most people probably don't know that you never bought or rented an apartment here. rep. chaffetz: no. no. sharyl: so, you sleep on a cot in your office. rep. chaffetz: no, i really do, and i do that to save money for our family. look, we get paid a very handsome salary, but it's not nearly enough to have a place in utah and then in washington, d.c., one of the most expensive cities in the world. it's just, i can't do both. i move these out, i spread these out like this, and then in here i have my cot. so i have the cot. i literally just like, i roll it out like this, and like this, and then i throw the mattresses on the top. i can watch tv while i fall asleep at night. sharyl: oh yeah, flat screen. rep. chaffetz: but it's not the most comfortable. i got this at walmart. it's more like a fake plastic. it's not, if you see, it's not really flat but that's what you get for 50 bucks.
sharyl: very good. rep. chaffetz: and then, this is what i usually eat for breakfast that, and then. there's not much in the fridge but water, almonds. sharyl: popcorn! rep. chaffetz: water, popcorn and almonds, that's all you really need. i'm looking at the next year and a half thinking, i'm going to spend 200-300 nights away from my wife where we've been married 26 years. i loved the work, but i truly just honestly happen to love my wife and kids more. sharyl: you're painting a pretty bleak picture. rep. chaffetz: yeah. sharyl: it starts to look like maybe that weighed in somewhat on your decision to leave. rep. chaffetz: look, first and foremost, it really is a family decision. i loved being engaged in the fight, but yeah, there does, after eight and a half, nine years, get to be a degree of frustration that, hey, when are we going to get serious about changing these things? because the american people, when i first started, they had democrats who had the house and senate in the presidency. and that whole pendulum swung,
first five, six months, i haven't seen any changes. and that's very frustrating. you come to that point and say, alright, it's time for a change. sharyl: as for what's next? chaffetz said he's not ready to talk about it. he leaves congress june 30th. ahead on "full measure." germany is fighting islamic extremist terrorism, but with an unusually heavy reliance on the u.s. for millions who suffer from schizophrenia a side effect of their medication... is something called "akathisia." it's time we took notice.
sharyl: germany, like many countries, faces a growing threat of islamist extremist terrorism. but there's one key difference in how germany fights its war on terror. when it comes to key intelligence, the most important tool, germany relies almost entirely on the u.s. reporting from berlin, scott thuman asks -- what does the u.s. get out of the deal? scott: from the cold war's dividing line, the berlin wall, to the epic relic of espionage, checkpoint charlie, now turned tourist trap, germany has a long history of keeping populations in place as the times and politics dictate. but germany is now struggling to separate and contain suspected terrorists and stop an ever-growing string of attacks. christmastime in berlin. the market attack by a radicalized refugee from tunisia, who made his way into germany, killed 12 and injured more than 50, when he drove a truck into the celebrating crowd. a year ago, a train attack near wurzburg, when an afghan alu
and a suicide bombing at a music festival in ansbach, a syrian refugee blew himself up, 15 people were hurt. guido steinberg: i personally think that the rise in the number of terrorists here in germany is primarily due to the refugee flow of 2015. we do see at least dozens of suspects, if not more, who have been members of isil, the nusra front, smaller organizations. scott: guido steinberg is one of germany's leading experts on terror and has advised governments on countering its spread. guido: some years ago we would have talked about, say 100 or 200 germans who went to pakistan to join al qaeda and its affiliates. today, we talk about numbers of 900 who went to syria within 4 years. that's a significant rise and it's an experience all western nations have made.
scott: germany though has an uncomfortable truth when it comes to the use of authority and intelligence to control its people. guido: we have had two dictatorships where intelligence and police were merged in the notorious gestapo and secret state police in third reich or in the state security the stasi in east germany and that is why germans, first, don't want to merge intelligence and police, and secondly, and that's even worse, they don't want strong intelligence services. so we see a country which has a long tradition of repression, a country that has quite strong police services, but the whole security architecture is fragmented and the intelligence services are weak. so if we know about a threat, we are good because we have good po
methods to find out about it. scott: if history is their hinderance, america may be their answer. you were quoted saying in a way, "we have outsourced our counterterrorism efforts to the united states." guido: yes, that's absolutely true because the most difficult thing in counter terrorism is to find out who might be a danger. but this first information in many german plots came first from the nsa several times, and that means we have outsourced probably the most difficult part of german counterterrorism to the united states. scott: that sharing has proved invaluable and likely recently saved lives, like here at the berlin airport where there was a plot to allegedly set off explosives. it was american intelligence that tipped off the germans.
since the war on terror is now a global effort, trading intelligence is pivotal to preventing attacks. steinberg claims americans are getting the short end of that stick. what can american intelligence agencies learn from germany authorities? should we be taking any lessons from the german authorities? guido: i don't think there's any lesson that the americans can learn from germany, they can probably learn from the brits, who i think have the most professional intelligence services worldwide. they might learn from the french, even though they're unreliable, but i think german security authorities have nothing to offer to the united states. scott: is it an unfair relationship? are the americans providing vast amounts of intelligence that is keeping germany safe, but the germans are not able to provide the same for america? guido: yes, the relationship between the united states and
absolutely unfair. scott: very one-sided? guido: it's one-sided. it should have changed after germany became a sovereign state in the early 1990's, but it did not. so i think it's absolutely fair for the trump administration to demand more, in military terms and security in general, and i think the germans should do more in intelligence. sharyl: the european press reports that the head of germany's ruling party believes his government should reconsider what information they do share with washington over fears of so called "loose lips" in the trump administration. coming up on "full measure." we sit down with the first daughter to talk about her father and her role in his administration.
do you have an official title? ivanka trump: yes. i'm an advisor to the president. sharyl: in your months in washington, have you found the establishment or the swamp, whatever you call it, more deeply entrenched than perhaps you expected? what would you say about that? ivanka: it is definitely an interesting environment to navigate, and these are early days in terms of my own experience. so, you know, i love to believe, on a personal level, that many of the issues i care deeply about should transcend politics -- workforce development, educating this next generation to enable them to have meaningful and well-paying jobs in the future. ideas like paid family leave and human trafficking, but sadly nothing is without its politics. so you learn to navigate it, but at the end of the day, it is
washington to try to have a very meaningful and positive impact. we already see this happening with the president and i hope i can be additive to that as well. sharyl: i can assume, i guess, that you traveled extensively, before all of this, around the world. ivanka: and around the country. during two years of the campaign, we traveled all across america and it was a life-changing experience for me and my siblings, as well. sharyl: when you went on this first big foreign trip, starting with saudi arabia, a muslim majority country, were you under the impression that perceptions of america are changing around the world, and if so, how? ivanka trump: i think what you saw in saudi arabia was remarkable. in terms of the collaboration and the unification in terms of unifying towards a common goal of eradicating terrorism and recognizing it as major problem
that has to be dealt with as a collective. it was a first time that you had 54 muslim and arab leaders come together and highlight the problem and agree to work collectively towards a solution. so, it was a remarkable, a remarkable experience, and it was an amazing thing to see and i'm incredibly proud of my father for having been able to accomplish that. it was very, very exciting to see almost $400 billion worth of transactions that will benefit american industry and american workers. so, the fact that in saudi arabia alone, you had this epic and really historic meeting of muslim and arab leaders to discuss terrorism and how to work together to combat it, but also you had the promotion of american industry and american business is really rather remarkable. sharyl: and i think that e
a lot of the new coverage. in fact, if you watch what's reported on the news, a lot of times you don't get that part of it. you may get something that they think the president said that was wrong or a misstep that he took, but not necessarily the policy issues. ivanka: that is true, but results ultimately speak for themselves, and i think you're seeing the results. you're seeing the result manifesting themself with record low unemployment rates, with a soaring economy and i'm very optimistic that that will continue to happen as, as policies are implemented that are pro-business and pro-american working family. sharyl: faced with the sort of opposition that comes daily, just in a political environment, what do you say to yourself at the end of the day that makes you get up the next day and go do it again? ivanka: i think putting in perspective the challenges that are being faced by americans across this country and why we came to washington and the problems we want to take on and solve.
so i think that, for me, puts it in perspective. i feel very blessed to be able to do what i'm doing and contribute in some small way, and it's really an honor for me. sharyl: on thursday, with ivanka by his side, the president signed an executive order to expand apprenticeships, one program that's likely to draw bipartisan support. next on "full measure." dogs being used in secretive medical experiments by the v.a. we told you about it. now, we'll tell you what's changed. for years, fios has been promising
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sharyl: in march, "full measure" highlighted a report revealing that a half dozen veterans administration hospitals across the country were conducting sometimes painful experiments on dogs. a bipartisan group in congress was trying to stop those experiments. this week, we learned one of the v.a. hospitals in los angeles will stop animal testing. anthony bellotti: we're not talking about cosmetic companies, we're not talking about pharmaceutical companies, we're not talking about charities. we're talking about beltway abuse, government agencies experimenting on these dogs. sharyl: anthony bellotti heads "white coat waste project," a group that wants to stop taxpayer-funded animal experiments. can you summarize what you learned about what's going on here? anthony: what we learned is that there are over 1100 dogs, beagles, other hounds that are currently being experimented on in government agencies. sharyl: bellotti says the v.a. falsely declared it wasn't experimenting on dogs. for example, the v.a. research facility in richmond, virginia reported using no dogs or other animals in fiscal year 2016.
anthony: what we found was that they were indeed experimenting on these dogs. we're talking about experiments involving high levels of pain and distress unrelieved with anesthesia or pain relief. sharyl: the watchdog group white coat waste and the members of congress are still pressuring the other v.a. hospitals involved to cancel their animal testing, too. coming up next week on "full measure." the government's gun-running scheme known as fast and furious is the subject of one of the longest-running congressional investigations of our time. i'll reconnect with the federal agent who blew the whistle, first telling me his story seven years ago. sharyl: when you stepped forward, what did you think and hope would happen? john dodson: when i stepped forward, i thought it would all come to a screeching halt. i was very surprised to learn otherwise. sharyl: an interview you won't see anywhere else. next week on "full measure." until then, thanks for watching. we will be searching for more stories that hold powers accountable.
>> from washington d.c. and around the world, this is "government matters" with francis rose. >> thanks for watching the weekend edition of "government matters," the only show covering the latest news, trends, and topics that matter to the business of government. i'm your host, francis rose. the june 30th deadline for agencies to submit their reorganization plans to omb sparked interest this week from congress on what kind of progress they're making. the senate homeland security and governmental affairs committee heard from four executives on their company's