the next mission for the u.s. government as a whole in the international community as a whole was to help the afghans secure their nation so al qaeda and the taliban could not come back. and in that there's been failure. >> rose: we conclude this evening with a conversation with the former president of abc news david westin. >> you get paid everyday to come in and work with really smart people who are passionate and interesting to find out things nobody else knows about things that matter. and then to try your best to explain it to the american people and if you get lucky on a good day-- it doesn't happen everyday-- you have a chance of making the world a bit better place and are aren't many m jobs like that. >> rose: henry crumpton and david westin when we continue. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: henry crumpton is here. he spent 24 years as an officer in the c.i.a.'s clandestine service. he began his career at age 23 as a field agent i

secretary baker served under three u.s. presidents. he has held some of the highest offices in government. in addition to serving as secretary of state under george h.w. bush he was ronald reagan's secretary of the treasury and white house chief of staff. i want to begin with this notion. you both came to this building, to state department from politics. is that a good background? >> well, i certainly think so. that may not be surprising for jim to hear, but it might be to some. there are lots of different routes to this job. we can look back at our predecessors, the 66 that came before me, and see some accomplished men, and finally women. but i think bringing a political experience to the job, particularly in recent times, has been very beneficial because everybody has politics. even authoritarian regimes have their own brand of politics. and understanding what motivates people, what moves them, how to create coalitions, especially in the time that i find myself serving, has been extremely helpful. >> rose: secretary baker, as i said,

there are so many now in u.s. universities they're able to stick together and delightinize rather than mix in as they might have done -- >> they stay within their own place and see each other rather than mixing over a wider diverse group of americans. >> yes. but still you can tell the difference between chinese we'll people who have been trained in the western world and the ones hohaven't. >> rose: what's the difference? >> they've been, number one, most of them on balance like the experience. there are things they don't like about america but on balance they like it. there's a different kind of imagination and thinking imprinted on them. this is how a rule of law system would work. this is how actual academic freedom would work. they've seen that and lived through it. >> rose: that's part the hope for china, isn't it? each generation has had more experience in the rest of the world, and as they go to power, they get to the standing committee or get to be president they will be influenced by their own experiences

yes, it may well be that five or six or ten big firms here in the u.s. earn a little less money on these, but it means all the users of these products get a better deal. >> charlie: okay. dodd-frank does not eliminate derivatives, credit swaps are or anything else. >> that's correct, that's correct. >> charlie: what does it do? >> what it does in this area is three key things. it says, let's shine a bright light on that -- >> charlie: transparent. >> transparency. that means it lowers the cost to the use of these risk-reducing products. two, it says, let's lower the risk to the american public that these big dealers need to have comprehensive reform, having more capital cushion, and also risk management, so that we taxpayers don't stand behind them. and then another piece of it is something called central clearing that the american public hasn't heard, but it's a way to lower the risk and lower the chance -- >> charlie: central clearing of the derivative markets. >> that's right. lowers the chance that -- there should be a freedom to fail in america. if

because the u.s. estimates of how much it would set back the iranians if israel came in and bombed facilities is also 18 months to two years. so what were the olympic games about. well first it was about slowing down the iranians but it was also about bringing the israelis in and working with them so tightly that the israelis would be convinced there was a way to slow natans without sending in f16's. >> rose: there was a rumor for a while that said the israelis were thinking about the fact they had to go in the summer of 2012 where we're in now. but i was told recently they no longer believe that, that they backed away from that. do you know anything as to whether they are or are not looking at that kind of timetable. >> i have heard the rumor too that it's extended. on the other hand if i was the israelis and i was trying to get everybody to look the other way, i would spread the word that we think we've got more time. the history of this has always been that the israelis have said there's a crises b

interestingly, whenño u.s. official what outcome the u.s. regarded as preferable i didn't get a direct answer to that but the official did say in terms of the egyptian economy it probably would be best if the muslim brotherhood candidate, morsi, won. he's now won, he now presumably will make an appeal for help and we'll see where that goes. >> what do you think is the understanding of the muslim brotherhood from around thel world and what is the reality of who they are? >> well, charlie, in fact, what's interesting about the muslim brotherhood is the founder of the brotherhood was a cunning chameleon so when you look at the muslim brotherhood and muslim brotherhood in both egypt and elsewhere, do they want islamic sflul what do they mean by islamic rule? many of them are engineers, doctors, businessmen. the elements of the muslim brotherhood are the elements of what we call civil society. so the muslim brotherhood talks about a just islamic rule but in the end they have to make this... particularly in egypt they have to make this country run

he lost the u.s. open in wing foote because he couldn't find a fairway. >> rose: suppose he had taken a three wood. >> yeah, but that's not his nature. did you ask arnold palm their question at the olympic club when he lost the-- coming down the strep. that is how they play. he said, you know, the thing i have always admired about your students is they're all pretty much long hitters but they all drive the ball very well am you took greg norman and made him the greatest driver in the world am i look at davis love the way he drives the ball and he says i have always admired the way tiger drove the ball and i need to learn to drive the ball better. >> rose: so do i. >> we all do. if you look at phil mickelson's stats you say he hadn't really driven the ball any better but he has drive ten light years better because he used to business the fairway way out here. when he misses a fairway now it's to the by very far and can play. now he's aggressive. and he's an aggressive player like arnold was. he's not t

and i think as much as we are always asking when is u.s. policy toward cuba going to change, what about cuba changing toward us. >> rose: some think if it is more open it might help create the change, because of dengue pow ching, he changed china in part, did not change the political equation, that is what i care about in cuba is the political equation what matters for me is cuba is freedom. >> rose: it may very well have some impact on the political equation. >> but i think the evidence is not really compelling on that, because for example, china is open to the world, people can go into china today, americans can go into china any time they want yet it is an extremely oppressive government. >> rose: run by one political party. >> yes that increase my controls the economy as well as government owned companies, so my point is if economic openings were able to change the political reality of a country, russia and china would be much more democrat. >> my question is how has the economic embargo changed cuba? that is good for people of cuba? >>

in 1990 and the u.s. justice department went after i.b.m. 30 years earlier? >> rose: and took them nine to ten years before they settled the suit. >> and i was there two decades after that ended and the effects were profound. there were lawyers, there were all these rules. that's a big part of why i.b.m. got in trouble because there was a pal that was cast. you can't underestimate the impact of having your government come at you like that. >> rose: so in other words when the government came at them you think they lost something? >> i think that didn't... i think that didn't help. they had a generational change happen inside the company but like i started out saying, it's too early to tell. these battles play out over a long period of time. >> rose: are you less hungry once you get famously rich? >> you could say that and some people have retired and are literally on the beach or unavailable. >> rose: or doing other things. >> or doing other things. but they are hell bent to come after= they just announced windows phone 8, they're building tablets, going hard.

president kennedy and the u.s. passport which winston churchill never used. >> so as much churchill loved america, america loved churchill. >> absolutely and that's what this egs big is all about. churchill was a great reader and writer of history he engaged with history. that's with american history just as much as with european history. >> so& f.d.r. and roosevelt is a great story. >> well, these are lines by abraham lincoln that roosevelt along a wonderful inscription where he's written at the bottom "for winston on his birthday, i would go even to tehran to be with him again." and churchill was someone who lived by his pen his whole career is underpinned by writing. >> he actually rarely put pen to paper himself so what is the significance of this typewriter you have in the exhibition? >> you're absolutely right. churchill's favorite method of working was by dictationç this is this is what was then a state-of-the-art silence typewrite sore his secretaries could take down this torrent of words without disturbin