. >> we want to go back to jim cavanaugh. jim, i wanted to get your reaction to what you heard during that press conference, that hastily scheduled press conference of the situation that is still possibly a live fire situation. >> reporter: right. well, a lot of big facts he gave out. one, that they said they might have planted a bomb downtown, so we have an ongoing search for that. possibly that came from their interaction with this one shooter as a reporter just said, maybe inside a parking garage. so they might have yelled back and forth. he could have alluded that he had a bomb planted somewhere in downtown. so they've enlisted the help of the fbi, atf, dallas bomb squad. they put up the person of interest, lawrence, that they say witnesses had given them these photographs. as you pointed out, it's an open carry state, so someone can walk around a demonstration with a rifle like that, and it is completely legal. you know, before those laws were around, the police would immediately come up to someone like that carrying a rifle, you wouldn't be allowed to do it in many states

enforcement analyst, jim cavanaugh, a retired atf special agent and hostage negotiator. jim, let's start there with the negotiations, the kind of conversations that would have gone back and forth. we had the police chief saying they were able to gain a lot of information from the suspect, including a potential motive, but they were not able to get his surrender. >> right. it sort of appears they might have been yelling back and forth, maybe not even on the telephone, but just yelling back and forth. he was in the parking garage. we're not sure of that. it could have been a telephone. but maybe just yelling. and that's why the information from him is so cryptic and basic that he wanted to kill officers, he wanted to kill white officers. he talked about the bombs he had. and, of course, he wouldn't really engage with the negotiators, thomas. and he discussed having bombs planted around the city. those are escalating factors the commanders have to read. if the guy is alive, he could have a trigger mechanism, a cell phone detonator, and he could detonate a bomb in the city. so they hav

cavanaugh who's been following this story as well all night. jim, let's talk about the psychological effect this is going to have on the dallas police department and those officers in d.a.r.t., the transit department there. >> yeah, body blow to both agencies. to lose four officers at dpd and one at d.a.r.t., smaller force, 200, 300 officers there. they're going to recover. they recovered instantly, alex, as the patrol division surrounded that parking lot while they were being shot down, and cornered that guy. that's exceptional police work. exceptional police work, at least one shooter we absolutely know. now the chief talked about two. but it's really gets foggy there until they give us some more detail. but nevertheless, they cornered this one at the parking garage, and they did that under rifle fire, riflemen from an elevated position, and these are, you know, patrol officers who were there, you know, guarding the march. some of them got their tactical rifles from their cars as we saw in the photographs. but they were able to contain that shooter in there, and likel

situation that has developed in dallas tonight and four shot. i want to go back to jim cavanaugh. you worked with the dallas police department there. you know the area very well. to have any situation in which more than one officer is shot in any police department anywhere is one of the great tragedies and rare things to occur. here, we have three shot, wounded, one dead. >> it's devastating, lawrence. it's heartbreaking. the tweet you just showed up there is from the d.a.r.t. police, the dallas area rapid transit police. they ride the buses and trains, a force of 300 officers. dallas police is 3500 officers. they work with dallas police, fully accredited officers, just their mission is transit. they may have been near a bus or train or bus station and they were targeted because they had a uniform on. it's going to be devastating to the d.a.r.t. police department and dallas area law enforcement community to lose an officer like that. let's hope they pull through. the other thing is the rifles, a devastating wound, a military weapon and can really hurt. as we've seen, they are fatal y

in this alteration. i want to bring in jim cavanaugh and eugene o'donnell. both, perts and analysts for us. that is a reset of what we knee and authorities thing with the caveats that brings change in an active and open investigation. your thoughts, jim, having been through so many of these live action scenarios? >> they're working back from the shooter they have to see who he is. is he a member of one of these hate groups? like the new black panther group? right after dallas, the black lives matter movement issued a condemnation of all violence, but hate groups, like the black panther party and other black extremist groups have called for mrd of all police officers. and there's a conspiracy. is he tied to one of these groups? like we talked earlier, ari, they already broke up a conspiracy of four men who were breaking into a gun shop, stole eight guns in a plot the kill officers. we don't know if they are members of a group, but they were in conspiracy to kill officers. they then had the lone wolf who was reading from the black hate groups on the web. >> we know, jim, we don't know

. jim cavanaugh, i know you were following this. what can you tell us about how the authorities in bangladesh handled this attack? >> well, you know, they used a rapid action battalion, their version of our s.w.a.t. team domestically here, our special operations forces. you know, they had mixed results. but it was a very difficult situation. any team who would be handed this suicide, homicide, it's daunting, challenging. they can pull the trigger. in this case they could hack people to death. they might have hacked these patrons to death early on in the siege. they might not have been hacked later. we don't know when a lot of this killing happened. but they were able to rescue 13 people. the facts around that are were they hiding somewhere? were they just escaping the chaos? were they hide anything a back room when the security forces moved in? the fact that anyone could get out alive is good. it's a horrible case. the bad part is the police intelligence didn't pick up on the cell. that's compromised of at least seven people here. clearly it had guns, home made explosives, surveill

operations. >> jim cavanaugh, if you're with u i want to talk to you if we can about this operation from your expertise as a hostage negotiator as well as a special agent of the atf. talk to us about how this unfolded in terms of the element of surprise. when we began our coverage we were both a little bit surprised that the police, the bangladesh police and their special police, decided to launch this operation during daylight hours and not with the the advantage of perhaps nighttime darkness. it seems by the results that we're seeing now this may have worked to their advantage. >> right. and they could have had listening devices inside. if they were doing this appropriately, listening devices inside. the long rifle teams watching through the scopes, closing the perimeter, debriefing the one hostage that got out and maybe even the one suspect for any information they might gather. then they might have saw an advantage. an advantage where hostages were separated from terrorists, a place where they could make a move, and we're hoping they had a more surgical team up front from what we saw

. >> if you are just joining us, we have been speaking to jim cavanaugh, former atf special agent out of baton rouge, louisiana where three officers have been killed in an ambush style attack. several more injured, and msnbc has learned that several of the officers are considered in serious condition. there are also reports according to authorities of multiple potential suspects. one suspect deceased, and several more basically potentially on the run. authorities consider that an active scenario. i'm going back to frances rivera. >> that's the minds of the police department,as they are looking for one or two suspects on the loose, and a desperate plea we heard for the public. if they notice anything, contact police. this as word of this deadly shooting that has taken the lines of three dead police officers, and possibly four dead from this shootout. we have heard words of condolence from john bel edwards, and now from david brown who know this is heartache too well. from the fresh loss of five police officers in class. he tweets our thoughts and prayers are with the baton rouge police

, hey, we've got to check out everything. >> go check it out. all right, jim cavanaugh, i want you to stay with us. that will wrap it up for me. i'll pass it over to chris jan sing for continuing rolling coverage. >> chris, thank you very much. i'm chris jan sing. this is our continuing coverage of the tragedy in dallas. this developing situation at police headquarters here, this is what we know. police have reportedly cornered a suspicious person in a parking lot near the building and are apparently going to breach a locked door in a garage there at dpd. this is the place that we have been seeing all day long. it is the place where in the front of it, this memorial has come together, that they have police cruisers parked out there. people have been coming there all day long. the shot you're seeing next to me is the one that we have from the helicopter. media had to be moved back away from the scene. they don't want to get in the way of what the police are doing right now. they're also warning that there may be the sound of gunfire as they attempt to use a shotgun to get into that

few more minutes. jim cavanaugh, if i can bring you back into this discussion. the implications of what we are seeing unfold halfway around the world, what it means for us back here in the united states. some similarities. the united states is about to enter a holiday weekend, one of the long holiday weekends, one of the busiest if not the busiest travel holiday weekend of the summer. the target in bangladesh, a restaurant, a cafe. nothing extraordinary. nothing out of the ordinary about that particular location other than perhaps that it was frequented by westerners, frequented by tourists, frequented by diplomats. but still with a presence of security. we heard from the reporters that we've been speaking to on the ground. they've told us that security as it was entering the end of ramadan, entering its holiday period, was stepped up, was beefed up. something we're seeing back here at home. how concerned are you, if you are a u.s. law enforcement official this evening, watching this unfold halfway around the world? >> well, i am concerned, and i think law enforcement in america is

scale operations. >> jim cavanaugh, i want to talk to you about this operation from your expertise as a hostage negotiator as well as a special agent of the atf. talk to us about how this unfolded in terms of the element of surprise. when we began our coverage, we were both a little bit surprised that the police, the bangladeshi police and their special police decided to launch this operation during daylight hours and not with the advantage of perhaps nighttime darkness. it seems by the results that we're seeing now this may have worked to their advantage. >> right. and they could have had listening devices inside. you know, if they were doing this appropriately, listening devices inside. the long-rifle teams watching through the scopes, closing the perimeter, debriefing the one hostage that got out and maybe even the one suspect for any information they might gather. and then they might have saw an advantage, an advantage where hostages were separated from terrorists, a place where they could make a move and, you know, we're hoping they had a more surgical team up front from what

bomb. >> i want to bring in jim cavanaugh. i wanted to ask you specifically about the references pete has made. he said that law enforcement is looking into possible links to a sovereign citizens group, and we've also heard from cal perry earlier that some of the online footprint of the support, it's interesting, it's considerable. there's a lot of it. pete described some of it as just plain odd. but in terms of trying to find affiliations or a motive or associations here, if there is a sovereign citizen link here, what would be the implications there in terms of him as a threat to law enforcement? >> right, rachel. sovereign citizen movement is made up of people who don't believe that government has any authority over them at all. it basically was rooted in white hate. it came from white hate, but african americans do get involved in the sovereign citizen movement as well, but it's mostly white. they're anti-tax, anti-government. they believe the government has no authority over them. they believe when the currency was changed in the '30s to the gold standard, that everything changed

want to bring in jim cavanaugh. jim, take us inside law enforcement as they're thinking about today, as they're thinking about celebrations tonight. what would they be most concerned about and what's the strategy? >> well, the one strategy is the big presence like you're seeing around the big cities and the fireworks displays. a lot of cops, a lot of presence, very visible. so they can stop something quick in its tracks, kate. you don't think about gar land, texas, when the two shooters showed up there, they were ready, prepared, and ready to stop them. so more cops matter. and more eyes matter, more coordination matters, a strong force layered behind with intelligence and command. >> for those of us headed out to big celebrations tonight, what you would call a soft target. what precautions do we take? >> well, here's the thing. you have to have a mindset of being alert. individually and with your small group as you go out. agree before you go, you're going to be alert. set up your own personal command post with somebody that's not traveling with you who will be at home and contacts

cavanaugh. jim, one bit of information we learned just at the top of this hour was that at some point, maybe about 45 minutes ago or an hour ago, it appeared that one of the potentially one of the suspects, hostage takers, was brought out after shots were fired. so there was an exchange, there were some shots fired and then one of the hostage takers, one of the suspects, appeared to have been taken out by police, removed from the scene. what does that tell you? >> well, it tells me that those actors there are moving around, moving around inside. they might be moving around some of the hallways and they're looking for the police just like the police are looking for them. so he might have come down a hallway, been wounded by the officers and taken into custody which is a great intelligence thing for the on-scene commanders. they will know his identity, they will try to debrief him but he'll have connections to all the others. you also reported that a hostage escaped and that's someone who would normally be debriefed as well to get every bit of information about the weapons, the explosiv

in this video, let's bring in former atf special agent in charge, jim cavanaugh. jim, what do you see in these pictures? >> well, like you have been reporting, i think one of the things i see right away is just what you said, a motor cop trying to stop this slow-moving box truck, a straight body box truck moving down the street. i noticed the truck has no lights on. i didn't see any taillights on it, i didn't see any headlights on it. although that street has street lights, there's a lot of shadows and you know that would contribute to people not really even realizing what's happening. they can hear the sound of an engine but where is it, it's coming at them in complete darkness. of course, you reported the zigzagging of it, the deliberateness. malcolm talked about could it be isis, could it be al qaeda. i think all those are still yet to be learned. but just working with the criminal mind for a long time and of course, the terrorist's mind, terrorists are all criminals, what struck me immediately was within the last 24 hours, the president of france announced that he was deployin

enforcement expert jim cavanaugh, former special agent in charge at the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms. jim, this is your life's work. i just cover these stories for a living. most people have seen enough war movies, though, to know what a claymore mine is. it is right out of the warfare business. and for the first time in our recollection at least, they put a claymore mine on an extended arm of a robot and decided to dispatch with this gunman that way in that parking garage. that's pretty extraordinary, is it not? >> right, well, i'm not sure it's a claymore. i don't know if they exactly said that, but something in a configuration like that. what a claymore does, it has explosives on one side and bbs and fragmentation on the other side clearly marked front toward the enemy. it's a half cylindrical shape. something of that vain, even if the bomb squad improvised that or could have used it. of course, that's quite a large charge but they can get it smaller. they can get it out on the extended arm of the robot. if they knew right where this assailant was, it would be like a

jim cavanaugh with us, are you there? >> i'm here, tamron. >> we're looking at the situation at a mall as i pointed out to amon, we've focussed on airports as of late. the soft targets are such an interesting way to describe just about every place in individual can go and gather, but this instantly made me think of nairob nairobi, kenya. it appears right now this is not to that degree, but certainly this is where you find vulnerable people, not on high alert, families gathered. >> exactly right, terrorist attacks, they go for the crowd. you're right to think of the kenyan mall. of course that was multiple attackers. and the police don't know at this juncture in munich what they're dealing with. or if they have shot and killed the shooter. they don't know if there's multiples out there. that's why they have to say to everybody, you know, lock down, stay in place. even if they caught someone or shot someone because they don't know if there's others, there could also be explosives. for the munich police and police commanders, this is a very unfolding, ongoing situation. and unfortuna

want to get back to jim cavanaugh right now about this situation and the about the fact that it's taking place in a diplomatic zone. and not just that, it happens in a part of the world, we should note, bangladesh surrounded by india on one side, myanmar, formerly burma, on the other side. this is an area where political religious extremism is not an infrequent challenge for law enforcement and security forces. >> that's right. i mean, this is a real challenge, peter, for on scene commanders to deal with, seven to nine armed gunmen. remember, when you are dealing with one person -- one person in orlando shot 103 people in a matter of minutes. i mean if you go back and look at the time line from, before they were able to box him into the bathroom at the pulse nightclub it was really a matter of minutes when patrol got there. he was able to shoot 103 people. now you have nine attackers, reports you have had they are holding up to 80 people. this cab real awful scenario as well. the police really have to be on their game. they have got to read this carefully. they are probably going

we learn more this hour. >>> also jim cavanaugh, msnbc law enforcement analyst. he worked for years with the atf. you just heard that press conference from the sheriff. what did you make of it? what are authorities doing right now on the ground there, do you think? >> well, right now they've got a stable homicide investigation, steve. cal is exactly right. the deputy sheriff before i was a federal agent. and one of the things you're always dealing with in uniform n when dealing with any prisoner who is dangerous is they can get your gun. and you are taught in the police academy you're never really dealing in an unarmed situation. one guy, there's you and at least one gun there. and if somebody can get a hold of it. we don't know if somebody smuggled a gun in there. the fact that two bailiffs are killed, you -- it leads you to suspect, at least, that maybe somebody grabbed one of the bailiff's guns. bailiffs are deputy sheriffs. they're just working court security. so somebody might have grabbed their gun. you know, shot them and then other deputies shot the assailant. >> jim cavanau

police officers down in baton rouge. with me right now is jim cavanaugh, msnbc law enforcement analyst. we always have you on, but what times we do have you on. it's horrible. have you been able to figure out the crime itself that led to the death of the three officers? >> well, everything is spilling out online about the gunman, chris. i mean it sure looks like there was no underlying crime. it doesn't appear. we haven't uncovered that. i haven't heard any of that in the news. >> no. i mean the crime of shooting the officers. what led to the incident? how did it begin and play out? >> right. well, i'm sorry. that's what i was leading up to. in other words, there wasn't any other crime, it doesn't seem to be, other than the shooting of the officers. >> right. >> so it looks like he had the gun, the mask, and all dressed in black, maybe shooting the gun in the air or just spotted with a gun when the officers were called. what i meant is there was no robbery preceding it or no murder or carjacking preceding it. so the crime seems to be to lure the officers in and take the careful

develops. i'm frances rivera. >>> i'm going to jim cavanaugh right now. he is here with me. jim, as we're getting this information in, again, we don't know if this shooting has been in any way related, but again certainly a seen of a lot of tensions with the protesters that we've been seeing in the past weeks. >> that is right, francis. within the last week, the baton rouge police and the louisiana state police and atf broke up a plot to shoot that group of police. they caught some people in the act of burglarizing a gunshot and apprehended one at the scene and he gave a statement that they were trying to get ammunition to kill police officers and they recovered six of the eight guns that were stolen in that burglary and they arrested three of the participants immediately and the other day they were looking for another one. so it is a seething tension after mr. sterling's death. of course there has been a lot of protest for social justice and civil rights but there has been an element that goes to violence, a small element. and the protesters and the police and the community, to support t

, so there is no indication that he was a ticking time bomb. >> i want to bring in jim cavanaugh to the conversation. jim is experienced with law enforcement and the atf. i want to ask you specifically about these references that pete has made. he says law enforcement is looking into possible links with the sovereign citizen movement. we've heard from pete and gabe earlier, that the, excuse me, from kyle perry earlier, that some of the online footprint of this suspect, it's considerable, there's a lot of it. pete described some of it as just plain odd, but, in terms of trying to find affiliations, trying to find any ideological through line that might explain a motive or associations here, if there is a sovereign citizen link here, what would you expect that to look like? in terms of this guy's online presence. and what would be the implications there in terms of him as a threat to law enforcement? >> right, rachel, well, sovereign citizen movement is made up of people who don't believe that government at any level has any authority over them at all. it can take you down a maze of i

could all use that advice. thanks for joining me this morning, jim cavanaugh. >>> when we come back, it's a donald trump candidacy to get jon stewart out of retirement for a much-needed rant. we're going to bring that to you next. you are watching "msnbc live" in philadelphia. (vo) stank face. a universal expression of disgust, often caused by inadequate cat litter. if you or your a loved one suffers from stank face, the cure is tidy cats. it's new and improved with guaranteed tidylock protection that locks away odors. so you don't have to face one more stank face. tidy cats. every home, every cat. there's a tidy cats for that. but i keep it growing by making every dollar count. that's why i have the spark cash card from capital one. with it, i earn unlimited 2% cash back on all of my purchasing. and that unlimited 2% cash back from spark means thousands of dollars each year going back into my business... which adds fuel to my bottom line. what's in your wallet? i love that my shop is part of the morning ritual around here. people rely on that first cup and i wouldn't want to mess w

marine corps. >> thank you. >> i want to bring jim cavanaugh to the conversation. he is long experienced in federal law enforcement, including with the atf. i wanted to ask about the references pete has made. they were looking into links of the sovereign citizen movement. we have heard from pete and gabe earlier that the -- excuse me, from cal earlier that the online footpri footprint, it's interesting it's considerable. there is a lot of it. pete described it as just plain odd, but in terms to trying to find affiliations or through line that might explain a motive, is if there is a link here, what would you expect that to look like in term of this guy's online presence and what would be the implications in terms of him being a threat to law enforcement? >> it's made up of people that don't believe that government at any level has any authority over them at all. it can take you down a maze of ideas. it was basically rooted in white hate, sort of came from white hate. but african-americans do get involved in the sovereign citizen movement as well. but it's mostly white. so wha

dallas, texas, is back in the news in connection with violence. jim cavanaugh, formerly special agent in charge, atf, jim, you were talking earlier and perhaps for our later audience's benefit, talk about the time you spent in and around dallas and your experience and exposure to both the dallas transit cops and dallas p.d. >> yeah, right. well i was the assistant special agent in charge of the atf division in dallas. it's right there downtown blocks away from the shooting there. we worked, of course, extensively with dallas p.d. we had a lot of dallas p.d. officers on our task forces, and they worked the violent crime in the city with us. you know, we were trying to help them. of course they were a larger force than we were. but we targeted, you know, gun violence. that was atf's mission. of course, the bombs. we'd work with them constantly. we knew their command staffs. we met with them all the time. they're just one of the top police forces in the wo

jim cavanaugh, formerly special agent in charge, atf, jim, you were talking earlier and perhaps for our later audience's benefit, talk about the time you spent in and around dallas and your experience and exposure to both the dallas transit cops and dallas p.d. >> yeah, right. well i was the assistant special agent in charge of the atf division in dallas. it's right there downtown blocks away from the shooting there. we worked, of course, extensively with dallas p.d. we had a lot of dallas p.d. officers on our task forces, and they worked the violent crime in the city with us. you know, we were trying to help them. of course they were a larger force than we were. but we targeted, you know, gun violence. that was atf's mission. of course, the bombs. we'd work with them constantly. we knew their command staffs. we met with them all the time. they're just one of the top police forces in the world. their tactical team, we had a special relation with them. our -- atf's special response team, which is a s.w.a.t. team, one of our teams is based in dallas. they work regionally, and they hav

in charge, jim cavanaugh who remains with us as well. jim, we just heard from a couple of guests maybe 15 minutes ago. a couple of people on the ground in bangladesh. one on the ground and one in nearby pack telling us that police have surrounded the place but they don't appear, at least to our knowledge, to have engaged with the hostage takers. they put a ring around it, cordon around it, but they are not engaging. is that smart at this hour, six hours in, to wait them out? >> well, engaging you mean not assaulting. >> not militarily. >> so they may be engaged verbally, kate, with them, or attempting to verbally engage with them. and also the actors may even be calling the local media and talking to the local media or talk to go someone on the outside. remember, the mumbai attacks where there was 10 actors over four days. they were being directed from pakistan by taibi over the cell phone. we don't know quite what's happening here. they may be communicating with the police on the perimeter. they could be calling the media. they could be having somebody direct them on the outside

bit deeper. >> jim cavanaugh, we also appreciate your advice and council. we're going to take a break. when we come back, we're going to check in with cal perry on what he is learning and seeing from social media, and former cia director jim woolsey has joined us in our new york studios, that and more when our live coverage continues. think fixing your windshield is a big hassle? not with safelite. this family needed their windshield replaced, but they're daughters heart was set on going to the zoo. so we said if you need safelite to come to the zoo we'll come to the zoo! only safelite can fix your windshield anywhere in the us. with our exclusive mobileglassshops. and our one of a kind trueseal technology, for a reliable bond. service that fits your schedule. that's another safelite advantage. ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ 80% of recurrent ischemic, strokes could be prevented. and i'm doing all i can to help prevent another one. a bayer aspirin regimen is one of those steps in helping prevent another stroke. be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regi

, which has a very standard stacked indoor parking lot. and as jim cavanaugh pointed out and correctly points out each time we come on the air to cover this, first reports are often wrong. first reports often have multiple gunmen, multiple locations of gunfire. it could turn out to be correct. we just don't know as of yet. matt bradley is in our london bureau sampling all he can from there. matt? >> thanks, brian. it's a very fluid situation. we have seen this constant reiteration of these outbreaks of violence in europe and elsewhere. we know now from the police speaking to local german media is they believe there are now three people who have died. they have no real word on injuries, though it's thought there are multiple injuries. more than one at least. and they don't know where the shooters are. they were just tweeting, the police, that they don't know where the shooters are at this moment. they are trying to canvas the area and advising residents to shelter in place and try to stay off the streets in order to remain safe. they have shut down the local transportation, the undergro

enforcement analyst jim cavanaugh, retired special agent in charge and also former hostage negotiator. i'm curious about this. are police forces trained to use robots to deliver lethal force? >> no, it's very unusual to deliver lethal force, especially with an explosive on a robot. now, robots are capable of mounting a shotgun. that's usually used to disrupt a bomb or suspicious package. that was the main use. bomb squads have these and they have various disrupters, claws, tools, fix a shotgun, shoot a package. that's the main use. s.w.a.t. teams have smaller robots and we use those on our tactical teams that are much smaller, a few inches across with treads, wheels. used for reconnaissance. small tactical robots and tools for reconnaissance. but these larger robots that we've used these to negotiate with barricaded suspects or go in a hallway and see if someone is in there if we just needed a larger application. we've negotiated with people from the camera and the video on the end of the robot while you're sitting at the command desk you can actually watch negotiation from the robot

security. jim cavanaugh is with a us and has been with us the last couple of hours. jim, the neighbor we were speaking to was witness the different type of vehicles that are being brought into this spot. as i'm looking at it, and the map of this area, again, it's right up against the lake. and positioned in such a way where the street is a dead-end, and the restaurant is pretty isolated in terms of the fact that it is set apart, and alone. >> i think carefully niece terrorists these actors have picked this spot carefully for effect, for their cause, whatever that may be, whether it turns out to be al qaeda or isis or some other group. they have carefully picked this spot to get the international attention, the theater they want. and to be a able to draw this out. not to be so quick to have it end. part of the reason why they want to take hostages is to draw that out. of course as you've been reporting, who are the hostages? this is critical because in other sieges they separate the people by nationality, by religion, by passports, sometimes women and children are released. sometimes nati

they have light rail routes to police. they have bus routes to police. and stations downtown. jim cavanaugh last night was talking about the various markings we should look for. patrol markings on the uniforms of the dallas police. what has been germane since the first word of these shootings was the stance of police during this peaceful protest last night. they were not outfitted in riot gear. they were not outfitted in the big bulky kevlar helmets and visible automatic weapons. they were in their summer service uniforms. mostly short sleeves. some of the officers were wearing shorts for a hot night in dallas, texas. especially those officers meant to be part of the community outreach. they had been in on the planning of the peaceful protest last night. that's what was so, so tragic. they were in and among the crowd as has been mentioned many times dallas pd was sending out pictures on the twitter account showing officers with the public getting along, intermingling and then the shots rang out and we have seen the video of people scattering. it is just past the top of the noon ho

climb. joining me now, jim cavanaugh, retired atf special agent in charge. maybe you can walk me through what kind of things officials are doing right now, in the aftermath of this to try to make sure that they have everyone who is involved. >> right, chris. well, you know, the basic questions come up right away. who is the guy, the shooter that they know is dead? you know, i like to -- i'll start simple in these cases. grab a wallet, grab the phone, you find out who he is. is it his truck, is it rented? is it stolen? track that back, like the truck was tracked back in the oklahoma city bombing to the rental place. and are there other confederates with him, co-conspirators? in the truck, we don't have all the facts yet. or somebody nearby that could have been on the phone with him, in his ear, directing him. you made a great point, how far did the truck go? i think laura said two cla kilometers. so did this truck travel a mile and a half mowing down pedestrians? i was struck by this when i heard about it and started talking about it, about the president of france announcing withi

one of them and that% is what led to last night's event.% let me turn to jim cavanaugh, % long time official with the atf% jim, we call on your expertise % this morning as you look at what happened.% we know you are grieving with % your law enforcement colleagues% it seemed that this suspect or % suspects had some kind of % tactical expertise.% when you're talking about a % sniper or snipers in elevated % positions earlier described as % sort of triangulating to get % after their targets. % >> that's right, savannah, but % people can pick that up quick.% you know, if they go to a % shooting range, sometimes they % practice paint ball, could be a% military veteran or prior polic% veteran or something.% it doesn't mean he is a total % s.w.a.t. tactically trained % person.% when he moved through those two% pillars he moved quite far away% from the cover.% we wouldn't do that in law % enforcement, an operator, % especially s.w.a.t. or srt % member would move right to the % pillar to stay in the cover.% but what the chief said is so % important and what the killer % says is so important.

information. jif cavanaugh, i believe on the line. jim, here's what i want you to give me a perspective of. i'm having a hard time determining whether this feels like a tense situation because of the context of what has happened in dallas. and maybe this is the kind of thing that happens fairly routinely that things are called in. they're checked out and there's nothing there. or whether this amount of activity suggests it's more than just precautionary. >> well, i think it is because of the attack. of course, the murder of the five officers, chris. but also, remember that it wasn't about a year and a half ago when dallas police headquarters was attacked itself by a man in an armored vehicle, who planted some pipe bombs and shot at headquarters. on the heels of this most recent attack, they can't take anything for granted. because a copycat, or somebody with some other motive who wants to get involved in a national event could take this on. and they have to have more than just a threat. they've got to have more than just a threat. they must have a little bit of something else. and so th

had a good run at it. >> you can cownld on the "action news" team led by jim gardner from good afternoon -- gavel to gavel, we'll have live coverage at 6abc.com every night of the convention beginning tonight at 7:30. >>> we're following breaking news a fight that started at cavanaugh's in penns landing end with a 24-year-old victim dead. he was shot nine times on north christopher columbus boulevard. bouncers kicked the people out, the shooter opened fire on the victim as he was getting into an suv. they saw three suspects run and throw three guns into the river. the marine unit was on the scene looking for the weapon. witnesses and the suspect are being questioned right now. >>> dozens of people are injured when a septa bus jumps the curb and smashes into a wall. witnesses explain what they saw. nj transit rail riders do not have to worry about a strike i don't this morning. >> reporter: we have thunderstorms coming into, we'll take a look at that and tell you about the excessive heat that's coming up in accuweather. >> the first day of the dnc. taking live look at the philad