august 2016 numbershomicides total and homicides per 100,000 both milwaukee and chicago chicago year of 2016 numbers homicides total and homicides per 100,000 and homicides per homicides total numbersyear of 2016 numbershomicides total and homicides per 100,000 milwaukee and chicago two cities 3 thanks for looking in at four thirty -- libertarian presidential candidate, gary johnson will campaign in milwaukee tonight. tonight.his name will be on the wisconsin ballot this nove, marquette law poll shows most who johnson is. t even know for more on his visit and his chances in wisconsin...cbs 58's david ade joins us live in milwaukee...david. johnson will hold his first wisconsin campaign event here are serb hall tonight at seven. earlier this week... johnson's state party chairman told me the campaign is now targeting school poll showed us johnson's support is in the double digits...he has 11 percent support in a four way race with hillary clinton... donald trump... and green party candidate jill stein. however, 72 percent of wisconsin's registered and likely voters say they don't know

people were shot in chicago. that's almost as many as were shot in all of last year. as shooting statistics rise, approval ratings for chicago mayor rahm emanuel plummet. recent polling showed him with just a 25% approval rating. >> they don't trust him, i think, because he hasn't been because he's been slow to deliver information. >> reporter: the mayor refused to take questions on chicago violence today. he has called for tougher gun sentencing laws. >> i'm going to be really clear. more cops on the streets. kids, guns and gangs off the street. >> reporter: despite the violence chicago has not increased the size of its police force. although officers are working substantial overtime. emanuel has promised a comprehensive plan on of 12 people are being shot here every day. kevin tibbles, nbc news, chicago. >>> back in a moment with swimmer ryan >>> as we fall out tonight for ryan lochte after he admitted to exaggerating a story about being robbed at gunpoint at a rio gas station. lochte has now been suspended for

crime rates are lower than they were 25 years ago, so why is chicago different? poor and segregated neighborhoods prone to gang violence. and repeat offenders who lack sentencing. the penalty for having chicago is one year, while in new york it's three years. well known activist father michael sleigher says that chicago is a war zone that needs federal help. >> call for a state of emergency and get some federal resources to come in. >> reporter: caught in the cross fire children, a 10-year-old was killed while sitting on a porch with his twin sister, a bullet is w back. >> when it hits home, that's when you really got to wake up, like everyone has to wake up. like these are our babies that's not being able to grow up anymore. >> reporter: she is one of many family members keeping vigil at this hospital. mayor rahm emanuel's office declined to comment and it will be two weeks before he will detail his plans to combat crime by politics now, as the 2016 race. we have got it all covered including some brand-new poll numbers. let's begin with nbc's kristen welker. >>

and let's look at the chicago/new york eleric airline. i know you're fascinated with the prospects of learning the daylights of this extreme example of interurban madness. it's not to say there weren't a number of grandiose schemes. in 1895, at the time that that alphabet road, the akron, bedford, and cleveland was opening, there was a serious proposal, i guess it was serious, to build a high speed electric line between chicago and st. louis. but it went nowhere, probably because the technology was still iffy, although admittedly that a, b, and c route did operate, and operated successfully. so at the dawn, at the very dawn of the interurban era, there were these promoters with hunches, thinking let's have a high speed railroad that will be twice as fast as the chicago and alton, which is the major steam road connector between chicago and st. louis. about the time the chicago/new york electric airline was proposed, it's 1906, 1907, there was an effort to build a long distance interurban known as the minneapolis, kansas city, and gulf, bet

you don't have good community relations in chicago. it's terrible. i have property there.

that term came up by local chicago rappers who live on the south side of chicago who felt and still feel today that iraq is safer than their neighborhood, than their block. in fact, the impetus for me doing "chi-raq" came from people instagram. because i have a friend, great graphic artist, his name is adrien franks. every time a black person got murdered by the cops or private citizens, he would send me a portrait. so i put that portrait on my instagram. and every time i did that, someone in chicago was saying, all right, we're cool with travon, we're cool with mike, we understand. but when you do something about chicago? there are a lot think that kept the focus of what the film is about which is saving lives. >> in the making of this film i noticed a lot of controversy around the film. >> can i just say this, though? >> sure. >> from today let's come up with a different word that says controversy. i think that's a label that doesn't really do justice to what everybody -- that's a controversial filmmaker. controversial film. >> okay. how about this, then? there's a lot of discussion. >

c-span: you went to university of chicago, got an ma and a phd at the university of chicago. what was your dissertation about? >> guest: serving young people. i was working at the museum of science and industry in chicago, open the first public service library in the science museum in the country. that was really interesting, most museum libraries aren't open to the public. curators and educators, open up a library, wasn't a lending library, let visitors come in. and not only interested in special libraries but also museums. so i took some courses and started visiting museums. what i was saying at that time was libraries, public libraries needed to use the methods museums use to engage young people. the children's museum and all these museums and you can go into public libraries all over the country and see play areas, not just books but things as well. c-span: a baltimore resident said to me this day, when i said i was coming over, she was terrific in baltimore doing the kind of things you are talking about. trying -- movie night, a fundraiser, black-and-white every year. >>

the eagles in chicago as one of the most talked about teams in the nfl. the birds arrived in the chicago area this afternoon. they are a confident bunch. they should be. carson wentz looked good and was named the rookie of the week and he has earned the trust of teammates. >> he's ready for any moment, but we'll see. >> houw mature does he seem to be? >> very mature. he put in work like everyone else. >> reporter: playing monday night is a new experience for wentz. not for the veterans. >> i grew up watching monday night football. we are here. you know, going into my dent year, but still exciting. >> reporter: when wentz walked in, there were plenty of eagles fans, but they can't recognize him. i'm ducis rodgers. back to you. >> didn't recognize wentz. the president of the united states, the vice president trying to convince barack obama to get on the wentz wagon. mike, are you on the wentz wagon? >> of course. how could you not be? he recognized things. he has the kill play early on. looks like he can do defense. i think the bears, in this game, are goin

jenna: crime rate soars in chicago and city officials grasp for solutions. my next guest is there's a disconnect with politics and reality. plus batman met superman in a movie out earlier this year and a tv that does the same thing, kind of resembling the bat mobile but it can fly. wait till you see this buggy take off. [music] across new york state, from long island to buffalo, from rochester to the hudson valley, from albany to utica, creative business incentives, infrastructure investment, university partnerships, and the lowest taxes in decades are creating a stronger economy and the right environment in new york state for business to thrive. let us help grow your company's tomorrow- today at business.ny.gov >> would donald trump consider and make a visit to the south side of chicago? >> you know what, mr. trump will be coming here in the next 24 hours and i will have a conversation with him about it. i think it's a great suggestion and i will certainly talk with mr. trump. he's willing to go anywhere so that he can improve the conditions of african amer

i called him chicago's police superintestent. chicago's police superintendent recently said to trump, "if you have a magic bullet to stop the violence, let us know." okay, let me just say here-- a magic bullet to stop violence? kind of a poor choice of words. that's like saying, "if you have an idea of how to reduce knife violence, take a stab at it!" ( laughter ) or, "if you know of a way to stop arson in the city, fire away!" or "if you've got a new plan for preventing kidnappings, take it away, baby!" but sorry, police department-- donald trump didn't become a fake billionaire by working for free. if you want donald trump's super-secret, crime-fighting plan, you have to elect him president. do you think he would just stop senseless violence out of the goodness of his heart? but the question remains: who was this top cop that trump met with? because the chicago police departments says, "no one in the senior command has ever met with donald trump or a member of his campaign." okay, two possible answers: either trump made him up,

. >> chicago? >> chicago. >> born and raised? >> born and raised. >> you became a cop in chicago. >> it was my ambition. i can remember when i was 14 years old and my cousin who was a policeman in chicago would come to visit and be in uniform and talk about what he was doing and stuff and i would listen. you got the feeling it was aspire to. >> what did that teach you, the experience as a coop in -- cop in chicago? >> people, i saw the best and worst in people. i saw families struggling and the entire process of the caring of the families had even under the worst conditions for their children and striving to have a >> i have to ask you because you are a former cop, what is going on in north things like this have to break your heart. it seems like a breakdown between police and these folk maybe not the entire city because it is too general. there is a deep-seeded feeling that they are not getting a fair shake. >> there are two ways to look the police departments are starting to understand that they have to have better training. th

reportera: chicago vive su aÑo mÁs sangriento en 2 dÉcadas. durante el fin de semana pasado se elevÓ la cifra de asesinatos por arma de fuego a 500 en 2016, nÚmero que supera la totalidad de registrados en 2015 y que supera a los homicidios ciudades como nueva york y los angeles. de las vÍctimas mortales, alberto medrano, esposo y padre de 5 hijos, que encaminÓ su casa encontrÓ la muerte, sin querer mostrar su rostro, la familia hablÓ de la lluvia de balas que escucharon. >> se le acercaron las dos tropas, que venÍan disparando, lo encontraron entre 2 carlos, ahÍ le cayeron. reportera: frente a la ola de violencia hay crÍticas contra el alcalde de la ciudad, quien hasta el momento no se ha pronunciado oficialmente sobre los hechos. >> el alcalde no estÁ trabajando, llevan casi cinco aÑos diciendo que no se necesitan mÁs policÍas. yo como concejal sigo demandando mÁs policÍas en la calle, para no estÁ respondiendo el crimen, sino previniendo el crimen. reportera: organizaciones comunitarias dicen que la falta de presupuesto tien

bbc news, chicago. to find a day where there has not then a gun shooting in chicago, you have to go to february of 2015. ask for intervie with the chicago police, is request got no response. governmentthey say helicopters carried out a chlorine gas attacked. president assad's government has always denied using chemical weapons. reporter: civil defense volunteers were on the scene before the dust of the attack settled on the east side of aleppo, held by rebels. the syrian government controls the west side. dozens were taken to a hospital to be treated for breathing difficulties. local reports said the reason was government forces had dropped bombs containing chlorine gas. there were similar reports and pictures from east aleppo a month ago. the casualties were washed, decontaminated to get traces of chemicals off of their bodies. aleppo, the biggest city before the war, is a key to controlling the country. rebels and government horses in aleppo have fought all summer. the syrian government has denied usi

he becomes a chicago city councilman. his career has some peaks and valleys. 1920's, he is a part of the republican political machine in chicago. as a ward alderman. in 1928 when the sitting congressman from chicago, a powerful republican who is on the appropriations committee, passes away, in the fall runs for, de priest the seats and he wins. in 1929, he comes to be house of representatives. >> one of my favorite things about oscar depriest's career is this little tiny button we have in the collection from his career. it is really small. it says depriest for congress. one of the things i love most about it is they are very rare. there were probably not many around initially. very few survive. i think i have only seen one or two others in existence. if you think about the tiny lapel,worn on someone's looking like any other button, this actually represents a revolution, the attempt to elect an african american to congress for the first time in decades. the presence of this little piece of metal would have been a real stat

lynn, you are from chicago. well well-versed in chicago. in trump said he suggested, didn't say to who, but suggested stop and frisk would work in the city of chicago. would it? >> he doesn't know what he's talking about in that he has never visited any of the neighborhoods in chicago. he has no relationships with law enforcement community in chicago. as it happens, by coincidence, tonight mayor rahm emanuel who has been trying to solve this horrible crime situation in chicago, is giving a major address on it with more ideas that he has. so there's no possible way that donald trump is putting out a solution, stop and frisk is three words. it takes more than that to try and figure out why chicago is having the trouble it's having with this very serious problem of shootings. that's my point i would like to make. donald trump can come to chicago as hillary clinton has and go into neighborhoods and try and figure out that there might not just be one answer to this problem. >> well, donald trump went on and expounded on fox and friends this morn

what happened next, tonight, a plaguing chicago. with laguardia still standing there, one of the men returns, confronting the senior citizen. wrestling him to the ground, shooting him and rifling through his pockets. then getting back on his bike and riding off. laguardia wounded, but able to stand, staggers across the lawn. clutching his abdomen, he walks to a neighbor's door. no answer. laguardia sits on the steps and calls for help. >> it's just absolutely ridiculous. i mean -- you're not even safe in your own yard. >> reporter: tonight, the shooting of frederico laguardia, more proof of the violence gripping some chicago neighborhoods. >> this is not an individual thing. it happened to all of our grandfathers. it happened to all of our fathers. it's happened to all of our sons. >> reporter: nearly 3,000 shootings in chicago just this year. 500 people killed in the wave of violence. 90 dead in august alone -- the deadliest month in two decades. >> it's not a police issue, it's a society issue. you know, impoverished hope do these

. >>> we turn to the deadly streets of chicago. where a surge in shootings and homicides this year has made headlines across the nation. after repeated calls to boost the size of the police force, mayor rahm emanual's administration announced a major hiring plan to put more uniforms out in force. >> what do we want? >> peace. >> another murder, fresh tears in chicago. 15-year-old demetrius griffin found dead in the trash on the city's violence-plagued west side, his body, badly burned, no one under arrest. >> i need somebody, you know something. please come forward. >> griffin's death adds to the workload of a police department stretched thin in a city that has seen a dramatic surge in murders this year alone, 511 homicides, more than but just 105 arrests, about one in five. a crime-solving rate that puts chicago well behind the national average. >> simple fact is, we have to do better. >> so today, a hiring plan. adding nearly 1,000 positions, including some 500 police officers over the next two years. lori lightfoot heads the cit

. >> reporter: the mayor refused to take questions on chicago violence today. he has called for tougher gun sentencing laws. >> i'm going to be really clear. more cops on the streets. kids, guns and gangs off the street. >> reporter: despite the violence, chicago force. although officers are working substantial overtime. emanuel has promised a comprehensive plan on september 20th. meanwhile, an average of 12 people are being shot here every day. kevin tibbles, nbc news, chicago. >>> back in a moment with swimmer ryan lochte's punishment for his drunken incident during the rio games. nken with my moderate to severe crohn's disease,... ...i was always searching for ways to manage my symptoms. when i finally told my doctor, he said humira was for people like me who have tried other medications,... but still experience the symptoms of moderate to severe crohn's disease. in clinical studies, the majority of patients on humira saw significant symptom relief... ...and many achieved remission. humira can lower your ability to fight infections... ...including tuberculos

or at least connect with the chicago commuter system. so they got lucky because of gary. and gary was thought to be the great metropolis of the midwest. but the poor old airline, almost all of it will be abandoned in 1917. so not a long history, needless to say. although that feeder line that was built will be part of the gary street railways until the late 1930s. several historians have looked at the airline, although i don't think they've all done the greatest research. and the argument is, this is a fraud. but it's not a fraud. miller was sincere. his investor friends were sincere. they perhaps just had an idea that was beyond anybody's reach at that time, at least in terms of a grass root financial arrangement. yes, if you had big money coming from, let's say, the rockefellers or someone else, yeah, this might have been happened. in fact about the same time, there was a proposal to build a high speed freight line between philadelphia and chicago. and it actually was financed by some major capitalists, although it was no more really t

chicago. >> on this night, we join chicago's top cop patrolling the streets of chicago, superintendent, eddy johnson, in his new role for less than six months was born and raised in the city and has patrolled the streets for more than 20 years. >> we're at the spot where nikia aldridge was murdered. she was the cousin of dwyane wade. she was an innocent bystander caught between two convicted felons, one wearing an ankle monitoring device. the shooter didn't like the way he looked at him. they took matters in their own hands and grabbed pistols and started firing. she got hit. >> no prior altercation or beef or fight. it was literally because of a look. that shows you how quickly things could jump off into violence. here in chicago, most of the city is fairly safe from these type of incidents. this year, we have a list, 1400 individuals are on that list. they are the drivers of gun violence. they are repeat gun owffenders. >> how can you police that, a look or facebook or twitter message can turn into a gun battle? >> you can't police something like that. there is no way we can predict

"chicago med, ""chicago p.d.," "chicago fire, ""chicago fed," "chicago law." >> stephen: all the shows make it look like chicago is going to >> chicago is incredible, but there are a lot of actors there and a lot of friend i met when i was there so we all got together and had a nice -- >> not your favorite birthday but a good one. >> not my favorite birthday but a good one. probably if i had to choose my particular favorite birthday it was my 12th birthday. that was the big celebration. that's the one that really stands out in my brain. >> stephen: why was it so much better? bit later, but this birthday was particularly great because, well, the surprise guest at the party-- my mother was always doing stuff like this because she knew pretty much everybody in show business. she was a casting director so she knew a lot of actors and people like that, so there were always different people showing up at these wonderful parties i had as a kid. and one this year at 12 was mark hamill. ( applause ) yeah, yeah. >> stephen: i'd be excited if he showed up at my birthday now. >> yeah, i kno age fo

>> alex perez in chicago for us to lead us off. alex, thank you. >>> we are also tracking a deadly tropical system that slammed into mexico, and is now barrelling across the southwest and moving across this country tonight. in parts of the southwest, a month of rain in just hours. now triggering flash flooding in arizona, after killing two in mexico. and tonight, flash flood watches in the center of the country. green bay, wisconsin, getting an inch of rain in just 15 minutes. parts of this system are moving up toward the midwest. chicago and other cities in the bulls eye. it will very likely bring travel headaches. so, let's get right to rob marciano with more tonight. how much rain is wind is coming, rob? >> reporter: good evening, david. well, it begins with what's left right now, the center is nearly over tucson. you see on the satellite picture, most of the moisture is off to the east. so, i think new mexico is the biggest threat. then it gets drawn up into this northern system and heavy rain across the midwest. flash flood wa

mcfadden was involved in a fatal shooting in chicago in 2009. this picture released by the chicago fraternal order of police shows mcfadden and another officer receiving an award for their bravery and courage as a result. i asked the chief yesterday. for a complete background check was done on make about -- on mcfadden. >> something we missed on the lateral? yb question. we are going to make sure we do our due diligence in the hiring process. >>reporter: i have a request in for the full personnel file. phoenix has been in a hiring frenzy and they have lowered some of their standards. many wonder if some of the problems are a symptom of that. >>> tonight we are learning gilbert home. preliminary reports say one of the skydivers heard a loud noise before saying damage to the wing that quickly caught fire. this guide up -- the skydivers jumped out safely in the pilot managed to bail out before the airplane crash. the homeowners were not injured. the final report will take at least a year. >>> police are investigating how i cemented truck it happene

kathy: chicago has hit a according to the chicago tribune, chicago's 500th homicide happened over labor day weekend. it stands at 512 tonight. with four months left in the year, chicago's homicide rate for 2016 has already surpassed the total murders for last year. 90 people were killed just in the month of august. in milwaukee, august was the deadliest month in 25 years. there were 24 homicides last month. last month, milwaukee's murder rate was higher than chicago's. for every 100,000 people chicago had just over three homicides. year-to-year milwaukee is down , in homicides. so far this year there have been , 94. the same time last year there were 105. joyce: police in oconomowoc release surveillance pictures of two men wanted for burglarizing tobin's pharmacy. investigators say the two men broke the pharmacy's glass doors shortly before sunday morning 3:30 a.m. and got away with an undisclosed amount of medication. suspect as a white man wearing a brown, camouflage hooded sweatshirt and jeans with a , black bandana covering his face. the description of the second suspect, a black ma

i guess he liked chicago. i never knew at that time that he did have in the back of his mind getting involved more politically as an elected official. >> obama starts to practice civil rights law and to teach at the university of chicago, all the while he remains active in the community. but there's more to obama than building his resume. at the same time, he's getting settled in his personal life. he and michelle marry in 1992 at the trinity united church of christ, where obama finds a spiritual home. in 1995, obama's mother dies of ovarian cancer. it happens just a month after obama publishes his very personal memoir, "dreams from my father," about his life and his unusual family background. >> it's a book very much about identity and the amazing thing about the book is i think can captures one of the things that is extraordinary about him and that is that he's a confluence of a lot of different strains of the american identity all in one person. >> in 1996, obama launches his political career and runs for s

que para reducir la violencia chicago debe recurrir a la prÁctica de detener y registrar. y que consiste en detener de manera aleatoria a personas que se encuentran en la calle bajo sospecha de actividad criminal. el >> lo hagan o no, esto ha funcionado muy bien en chicago, funcionÓ muy bien en nueva york, disminuyÓ la tasa de criminalidad, usted toma las armas de los criminales que no las deben tener. reportera: su propuesta no tiene acogida en algunos concejales. >> este programa es perfilando a los jÓvenes solo por ser afroamericanos, latinos, parecen pandilleros, " vamos a parar los y registrarlos" reportera: tambiÉn estadÍsticas de autoridades neoyorquinas indican que menos del 1% de los detenidos portaban armas, la prÁctica fue declarada inconstitucional en la gran manzana en 2013 por atacar a las minorÍas. >> se necesitan medidas mayores para un control de armas. reportera: asociaciÓn de libertades civiles indicÓ que la polÍtica y hace implementar en chicago y que no ha logrado reducir la violencia se registra en las calles de la ciudad. organizaciones pro

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satellite and radar some clouds increasing towards chicago. this is the next front that comes through here on tuesday night but ahead of it, not bringing any wet weather for the game in chicago, if you know anyone there, they're experiencing temperatures in the 70's, a pretty nice night for football for the eagles at the bears. southwest wind four to 8 miles an hour. back at home, a little bit of fog in areas tomorrow morning with that damp ground. it stays really humid as well with temperatures around 70 degrees between 6 o'clock and 8 o'clock in the morning and there could be some sprinkles or light showers especially the deeper south you go away from philadelphia towards southern new jersey and delaware. but for tuesday, overall we're between two front. that stalled boundary off the coast. the next cold front coming in from the north and west, 84 degrees. the brighter skies will be limited to the north and west especially in the afternoon tomorrow. again very humid. and then as that high pressure pushes in behind that second front on wednes

he became's -- becomes a chicago city councilman. some pizza and balance. ofthe 1920's, he is a part the republican political machine in chicago. he is the ultimate. in 1928, when visiting congressmen -- the sitting congress and from chicago, he is on the appropriations committee in the fallmid--- election, the priest runs for the seat. he wins. in 1929, he comes to be house of representatives. >> one of my favorite things about oscar depriest's career is this little what did we have the collection that this from his career. it is small. it says depriest for congress. one of the things i love is that they are very rare. there are probably not many around initially. very few survive. think about this tiny button, worn on someone's lapel, looking like any other button, this actually represents a revolution. the attempt to elect an african-american to congress for the first time in decades. just this presence of this inch and a quarter piece of metal would have been a real statement on the part of whoever was wearing it. i love that it has survived and that it

a trail of clues led detectives to one of chicago's most exclusive neighborhoods. would those clues lead them to nailah? here's keith morrison with smoke and mirrors. >> it wasn't like this, you have to understand. it wasn't gray. it wasn't cold. no flecks of snow to drift and catch the bitter breeze. no, no, it was hot and it was late after midnight, september 27th, 2007. >> pretty secluded area next to a forest preserve. >> so it was. and it was clear and dark and still and vacant. here where the deep wood fought back against the decaying suburban sprawl, and then nothing was clear at all. i never cried this violent cry. >> you're experiencing everything but it's not true. >>> jur just waiting to wake up. >> it just feels like you're literally in a nightmare. >> yes, still does. the name you'll want to remember is nailah. >> the meaning was one who succeeds. >> this is nailah's mother maria. >> i wanted her to be successful and she was. she lived her name. >> quite true. frankly, have the rest of them in this big family. this is leah, the firstborn. >> we might n

here's kevin tibbles. >> a sweet celebration in chicago's little village. honoring the local palletero, the popsicle man. after a quarter-century, 89-year-old fidencio sanchez and his wife pushed their carts for the last tif. we met the man a week ago as he plied his frozen treats on the street. his wife i and his only daughter passed away this summer. money is scarce. then, this photo taken by a passer-by of a seemingly defeated fidencio changed everything. >> i just felt he looked very tired and he looked like he needed a day off. and the world came together to give him a bunch of days off. >> a gofundme page was set up, in just 11 days, 17,000 people from 70 countries helped raise today on the same streets he walked for years, fidencio was presented with a check, his retirement. >> sometimes even if the kids didn't have any money. i'd give them a treat, he said. >> the kids were our livelihood, says illaria, we'll miss them. after decades of quietly peddling smiles, complete strangers have smiled back. >> it shows that ewh same. >> happy retirement, fide

he went to new york, finally made it to chicago. if you go to malcolm x college in chicago, the auditorium is named after her death. so carl hayden has a great story. she's run into some opposition from some quarters but hope she ends up being the next library and. let me just say one thing about writing if i can. when it comes to writing i think it's like most other skills. they say he needed to 10,000 times. if you read stephen king, a book called on writing, which i recommend because the front end of the book is an autobiography which is always. is almost as fun as bill bryson to another writer i read all the time. the life and times of the whizbang kid, going up in des moines, iowa. stephen king tells the story of growing up in this interest in science fiction and all the crazy things nobody else would like to read. he loved to read individually worked up the courage to write, wasn't all that well but he had this kind of quirky way of looking at things or to write a book called kerry. this book in hardback doesn't do very well.