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by listening to an thiaudiobook on audible.ame and this guy is just trying to get through the day. keeping it together. losing it. upgrade your commute. ride with audible. >>> we have hit the top of the hour and that means i am out of time. i am keir simmons, and i will see you at noon eastern here from london. "am joy" starts right now. >> you don't believe that surrogates from the trump campaign had communications with the russians. is that what you are saying? >> i did not and i am not aware of anybody else that did. >> good morning and welcome to "am joy." donald trump is back on the world stage this week with a trek across asia. we will have more on that in a bit. here at home the twists and turns of the russia investigation and trump's response have brought attorney general sessions into the spotlight. the testimony about his role in the trump campaign appeared to be contradicted by revelations by george papadopoulos informed sessions and trump about his connections to russia, and told carter paige he was going to russia in 2016 where we now know he met with a member of russian leadership. george papadopoulos and paige would communicate with sessions since he was the chairman of the advisory committee on which they sat. what made less sense frankly were sessions' claims of complete ignorance on which foreign diplomats they spoke to or whether they told him they planned to travel to russia. and trump tweeting everybody is asking why the justice department and fbi is not looking into all the dishonest tea going on with crooked hillary and the democrats. if trump were to fire sessions, wouldn't that clear the way for a new ag that could fire the man in charge of the investigation. joining me now is the man that sits on the house judiciary committee. good morning to you. you have accused jeff sessions flat out of perjury and said he should absolutely resign. would you stand by that call for him to resign even if it cleared the way for donald trump to fire robert mueller by appointing a new recused ag? >> i would. that's because the rule of law is a bipartisan issue. whether you are a democrat or republican, you want the white house to follow the rule of law and that means you can't have your top law enforcement official have violated felonies and still be in his position. it's not as if jeff sessions was caught jay walking. he was caught lying to congress under oath to order to get confirmed and that undercuts his credibility and makes it so the american people can no longer trust him and he needs to resign. >> a source close to sessions said the march 31 comments by this papadopoulos person did not leave an impression, and this is somebody familiar with jeff session's views, not sure who that is, and he shut down the claim of meeting with russia. sessions shot it down and therefore when he was testifying to get confirmed he just did not remember. does that seem creditable to you and would that extricate him from a perjury accusation that you have made? >> not at all. sessions responded to papadopoulos' request. now for sessions to claim he was not aware of the strange credibility. then he has carter paige also telling jeff sessions he was going to go to russia. jeff sessions to me is committing perjury in plain view and cannot remain in his position. >> and al franken sent a letter here to sessions. it's requested that he please respond in writing by friday november 10th, this coming friday. if jeff sessions does not send a response to senator franken on that question, what do you think should happen next? >> i think congress needs to hold additional hearings in the senate as well as in the house. keep in mind, this is the second time jeff sessions has committed perjury, because he said, he, himself did not have contacts with russians and he had a meeting with the russian ambassador and potentially other communications, so he's committing perjury in plain view before the american people and cannot remain in office. >> congressman ted lieu making it very plain. i want to hold you for a minute, i want to bring in our guests. i want to play for the panel the january 10th exchange between senator franken and jeff sessions and this is when he was sitting for confirmation to be attorney general. let's play that exchange. >> if there is any evidence that anyone affiliated with the trump campaign communicated with the russian government in the course of this campaign, what will you do? >> senator franken, i am not aware of any of those activities. i have been called a surrogate a time or two in that campaign and i did not have communications with the russians. >> so sessions was not a surrogate for the campaign. i am sitting here looking at the political article from when donald trump named his advisory committee, jeff sessions was the chairman of the national security committee, and he was not just a surrogate. sessions says he's not aware of any of those activities. march 31, 2016. the same month jeff sessions was named chairman of the foreign policy committee, and sessions attends a meeting with papadopoulos brings up the russia contacts, and april 27th, he attends a reception at the mayflower hotel with kislyak, and trump is in attendance. and then he has a planned trip to russia on july 19th, and then the meeting and that includes kislyak and sessions in his senate office. it seems to be there's a prima facia case here that jeff sessions has the worst memory in history because there are multiple instances where he's in the room with papadopoulos or paige or kislyak. is there a concern among republicans that he may have perjured himself beyond congressman lieu? >> we are getting two conflicting messages close to sessions and familiar with his thinking. on the one handsome people are saying he breezed passed it and they moved on quickly, and on the other hand you have people saying he forcefully shot it down and said don't talk about this ever again, and if he forcefully shot it down then it makes you wonder how could he forgotten forgotten an exchange like that? >> yeah, and papadopoulos was referred to as the coffee boy, and he was sitting two seats away from donald trump, and the trump campaign tweeted out that they were serious on foreign policy, and papadopoulos was sent to cleveland where he was invited by the american jewish committee to speak on a panel about foreign policy, and in attendance, congressman from pennsylvania, and both members of the foreign house affairs, and bob corker of tennessee, and so it seems to have been a coffee boy who met a lot of congressmen and senators? >> yeah, and should have set off alarm bells to begin with. he lied about his model un. the whole campaign was full of the marginal characters, and they all seem to have connections to russia. were there any trump senior campaign officials who did not have ties to russia? who did not lie about those ties? i was privileged to be a foreign policy adviser on three republican presidential campaigns, and i am sure we did not have covert meetings on the romney campaign, and we were not having meet warnings russian representatives, and if they would have come to us saying here's dirt on your opponents, and mccain or romney would have picked up the phone and called the fbi. instead, these guys would have continued to have meetings with the russians and tried to get as much dirt as they could get. and we have not even seen the whole contour of the scandal. >> that's the way that most of us who know of you have come to know of you, is you are a foreign policy expert. this is the business you are in. have you ever heard in the circles you travel in, which are remainly foreign policy circles of george papadopoulos and carter paige, were these people known to you? >> no, they had no connections whatsoever to the mainstream of the republican foreign policy establishment which is why they were hired by the trump campaign because they concluded correctly this was a guy that was unqualified and unfit to be commander-in-chief, and most of us signed letters saying we opposed his candidacy from the get go, and it left george papadopoulos and mike flynn, who as we know was an unregistered foreign agent at the same time he was advising the trump campaign. these ties continue into the present day. >> as max just explained, donald trump was not taken seriously, and he was taken as somebody that would be the barry goldwater, and he puts out this sphrae slate of people, but the question is are these people amateurs that tried to prove their worth to donald trump by approaching russian officials to try and get hillary clinton's e-mails, or are they people who seemed to have been pushed toward the donald trump campaign because the campaign needed somebody and already had the ties. you wouldn't know the answer to that to speculate on it, but which seems to have the preponderance of evidence here? >> just quickly on jeff sessions. he was -- he is a known racist and should have never been attorney general. he was not qualified to be attorney general. now we find out that he lied twice under oath in front of congress. the first time he lied we found out he had three meetings with the russian ambassador who the u.s. intelligence agency believed he is a spy, the russian ambassador believed he was a spy and spy recruiter. here we have jeff sessions who is clearly now not a bit player but a mayor key figure in all of this, and he's now compromised as the chief law enforcement officer. one more thing i want to say here, after he lied about -- to become attorney general, he's now running the most radical right wing department of justice, anti-immigration, anti-gay, anti-black, anti-brown. he's living his best bigoted life right now. and now everybody we are seeing, george papadopoulos, gordon, carter, this is just a band much misfits rushing to talk to russia so they can please this president. >> i think we have breaking news we will go to for just a moment. everybody stay where you are. i will bring in ken, our national security reporter from nbc news. ken, what you have got? >> good morning, joy. i have exclusive new reporting from my colleagues. nbc news learned special counsel robert mueller has enough evidence to bring charges in his investigation of former national security adviser, michael flynn and his son. we're reporting that the special counsel is looking into mike flynn's activities on behalf of the government of turkey and examining the question of whether he took official action while he was national security adviser to facilitate the extradition of an opponent to the turkish president, a cleric who lives in the united states. >> thank you very much for that breaking news. exclusive reporting from nbc news the special counsel announced he has enough evidence to indict not just michael flynn, but michael flynn jr., who briefly worked at the white house. i want your reaction to that first. >> it does not surprise me. keep in mind michael flynn was a shady character within the campaign. there are clear laws you can't lobby for a foreign power without first registering. that's a very simple federal law that he did not comply with. there may be other charges as well. it's not surprising. this also tells me that special counsel mueller is doing his job and looking at the evidence, and i think it's very hard now for donald trump to try to remove special mueller because nobody out there is defending michael flynn, paul manafort, or george papadopoulos. i think this is a good sign that we have democracy working in america. >> this would be an unprecedented move. the indictment of the former national security adviser of the united states. what do you suspect is going through the minds of republicans on capitol hill or in the white house right now? >> well, it's not completely unexpected. michael flynn was always just as vulnerable as paul manafort. these were the two players mueller had his eyes on. michael flynn, his foreign lobbying that he just recently disclosed his ties to the turkish government. in march flynn's attorney went out and put out a statement to the fbi saying flynn has a story to tell, and he's eager to tell it, but he's only going to tell it in exchange for immunity. clearly that has not happened. clearly mueller has not given him immunity and he's facing the consequences. >> the january 27th infamous meeting between comey and donald trump at that meeting in which jeff sessions was ushered out of the meeting, the meeting was donald trump asking him to go easy on michael flynn. how easy should the white house be that michael flynn and his son could face indictment? >> i think donald trump has a lot of reason to be worried because i think the odds are going up that trump is going to try and fire special counsel mueller. they are like the new untouchables, and they are building this case and getting closer and closer to the oval office with every indictment and plea deal. donald trump knows his record will not stand up to the kind of scrutiny bob mueller was subjected to. he knows it will be bad if he tries to fire him but he knows it could be worse if he doesn't fire him, because he's going after donald trump jr., and when it gets into the family, trump will have to act. republicans on capitol hill have to make it clear they will not allow trump to fire mueller. that's an impeachable offense. they need to get that message out there right now. they need to detour him to get away from mueller the way they detoured him from getting rid of sessions. >> people that advice the president inside the west wing, we have not seen any evidence that trump is getting any contrary advice, and firing jeff sessions is a way to fire mueller or getting republicans to defund the investigation. the order of succession, the change of command at the doj, if jeff sessions were to be fired, you would go to rod rosenstein, and rosenstein indicated he will not fire bob mueller unless it's for cause. after that you get to rachel grand who is the associate attorney general and then dana boente who announced he would resign and he's still the u.s. attorney for the eastern district for virginia but indicated he will resign, so that indicates he probably would not fire bob mueller either. what do you suspect the advice is going around the west wing. what would it normally be? if this were a normal white house, what would be the advice be? >> if it was a normal white house he would not have fired comey in the first place to have triggered the special counsel, rob mueller to be put in place on this independent investigation of russia. it goes so far of how abnormal things have been. donald trump has made it clear to the american people that think thinks the russia investigation is a hoax. i think we need to believe him. the american people needs to believe him. i think it's incumbent on congress to protect mueller's budget and that firing of mueller doesn't happen. another thing too we have not talked about, donald trump is thinking about pardoning, as we all know is he's thinking about pardoning michael flynn or jared kushner if it gets to that. we are going to be headed into a constitutional crisis because this president is feeling the walls are closing in and this is what we have seen from him already with obstruction of justice. >> we are going to keep this panel for one second. hold on for a second. i want to go back to ken for one moment. you have additional context to the news you just broke earlier. tell us what that is. >> i want to make sure this is what everybody understands, this is an element of mike flynn and turkey. the former cia director, james wools leigh, he believed michael flynn was thinking about removing the cleric, and it looked like something close to kidnapping and he was uncomfortable with it, and it was reported to the fbi. we are also saying in our story the fbi is look into that element of it. we are also reporting that the fbi and special counsel mueller are examining whether mike flynn took any action after he took office as national security adviser to try and oerrchestrat the removal of this cleric that lives in the pocono mountains back to turkey because turkey believed he was involved in an attempted coup there. the justice department has not been willing to extradite this man. that's in part what this investigation is about. >> it's important, ken, just to stay with you for a moment, and the story that ken just broke, the special counsel believes he has enough evidence to indict not just mike flynn but his son. there's story that michael g. flynn accompanied him during the campaign and briefly worked on the presidential transition could be indicted separately or at the same time as his father, and the elder flynn could cut a deal in order to get an easier deal with his son. talk about that if you could. >> nbc news long reported that michael flynn, the son, is under scrutiny and under investigation by the special counsel. he was his father's chief of staff and accompanied him on the paid trip in 2015 to moscow where michael flynn sr. spoke at a russian state news media dinner on behalf of rt, and it's not entirely clear whether charges are contemplated against one or both. we are keeping that intentionally vague because we believe this is all influx and it's absolutely possible that mike flynn, feeling the pressure that his son may be charged cuts a deal and we see no charges either this week or in the coming days. >> thank you for that reporting. we appreciate it. the breaking news again for those just tuning in, the special counsel, robert mueller's office announced it has enough evidence to bring charges against michael flynn. i want to thank our panel. >>> up next, donald trump on his third foreign policy trip. what could go wrong? stay with us. liberty mutual stood with me when this guy got a flat tire in the middle of the night, so he got home safe. yeah, my dad says our insurance doesn't have that. what?! you can leave worry behind when liberty stands with you™. liberty mutual insurance. just serve classy snacks and bew a gracious host,iday party. no matter who shows up. do you like nuts? >>> up next, donald trump on the world stage. stay with us. from the very beginning ... it was always our singular focus. to do whatever it takes, use every possible resource. to fight cancer. and never lose sight of the patients we're fighting for. our cancer treatment specialists share the same vision. experts from all over the world, working closely together to deliver truly personalized cancer care. and these are the specialists we're proud to call our own. expert medicine works here. learn more at cancercenter.com appointments available now. >>> donald trump is in asia but there's big news here at home. nbc news learned from multiple sources that federal investigators have enough evidence to bring charges in the investigation of trump's former national security adviser, michael flynn and his son. earlier trump spoke to troops in japan. escalating tensions over north korea's nuclear program as well as trade and not to mention russia are expected to dominate the agenda, as trump visits japan and china and the philippines. shifting away from russia while overseas, he plans to meet with vladimir putin in vietnam later this week. joining me now is our guests. the last time donald trump was traveling, and this was his trip to europe last year in july he found himself dictating talking points aboard air force one as he was leaving germany to come back about a certain june 16th trump tower meeting when they talked about getting dirt on hillary clinton. what do you suspect is going on onboard air force one and the conversations the state department folks would be having as they are giving them this news we just broke? >> the policy and the psychology and the politics. trump's psychology does not allow him to focus on policy on a regular good day, and that's why state department officials struggle to keep him on track, and this trip is likely to end up being a learning and hand-holding experience for donald trump, and he's not going to be able to deliver on trade negotiations or real jobs. that's the policy side. his psychology on the politics front is going to set any deals sideways because he will want to get hands on involved on any of the management and strategy. we know he has had trouble with his lawyers and jared has had trouble with the lawyers because donald wants to get involved in the strategy, and anything that pops up he will want to get involved in everything happening. knowing he's meeting with putin towards the end of his trip is going to embolden him when he comes back to the u.s., because putin will try to work this to his advantage, and prop him up and make him feel good as he has control in the country, and will give him talking points, and same thing as the president of the philippines, he's the head of a program that killed thousands of people outside of the judicial people, and things are the things donald trump will hear before he comes back to deal with the american people on russia. >> that's context for you. let's listen to donald trump. the other context is donald trump doesn't have a fully robust state department and he's on the world trip, but not only does he see himself as his own diplomat, and this is him earlier this week about the unfilled state department starts. >> there's a concern that the state department is undermining your agenda? >> i am a business person and i tell my people, you don't need to fill slots, don't fill them and we have some people -- >> assistant sebt secretary of state, you are not getting rid of. >> the only mattone that matter me. >> the question, is the state department undermining his agenda, and donald trump saying it doesn't matter if there's anybody there because he's the only one that matters. your thoughts? >> oh, gosh, where to begin. he is very hampered because he doesn't have key people in place like the ambassador to south korea. secondly, he's hampered because he didn't know anything, and you can say richard nixon knew about the world and donald trump knows nothing about the world. and it's correct that trump is not going to be able to resist commenting on the latest information. remember, we left off last week as congressman lieu reminding us with trump ordering his state department, his judicial department rather and the fbi to go after his political enemies, to go after hillary clinton, which i believe is an impeachable offense. he's going to be bringing up hillary clinton again. i can imagine there's a mad scramble to get his phone away from him but that doesn't seem to work. he always has access to it. at this point you have to believe that the hooks are in to michael flynn. he may not have a deal but by threatening to indict his son they are squeezing michael flynn. there's no separation between michael flynn and president trump and no separation between michael flynn and attorney general. the walls are closing in. he's at a trip where he is ill prepared and not going to have deliverables, and he's going to have people testing him and provoking him. what is he going to do? he's going to turn around and lash out at his domestic enemies. usually presidents traveling overseas are able to regain confidence and prestige because they are seen on the world stage. donald trump i suspect will come back weaker than when he left. >> i think that was the idea, right, when they send donald trump overseas it's an opportunity for him to acquire the presidential look he cannot acquire at home. federal investigators have gathered enough evidence to bring charges in their investigation against michael flynn, he would be the highest level official on the trump campaign to face such an indictment, and this is not confirmed by mueller's office, this is nbc's reporting about michael flynn and his son. this is donald trump talking about north korea. >> north korea best not make any more threats to the united states. they will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen. the united states has great strength and patience, but if it is forced to defend itself or allies, we will have no choice but to totally destroy north korea. >> by the way, rocket man should have been handled a long time ago. >> really quickly, this is h.r. mcmaster who was asked on thursday if trump would tone down hit rhetoric. >> so the president will use whatever language he wants to use, obviously. >> we should not expect any modulation -- >> i don't think the president has not modulates his language. you have knnoticed that? >> even in the best of times donald trump sounds pretty deranged, so you can imagine when you turn the notch up a few points what happens at that point. anything can happen. what he has going for on this trip, all the leaders he's meeting with is propping him up and trying to shape themselves in the way shinzo abe has done skillfully over the last year yeah. all of them will try to make trump look good. the problem that comes in, if he's in a press conference or has an unscripted occasion where he talks off the cuff all bets are off because you don't know what comes out of his mouth. he could wind up attacking the trade deal or make new threats against north korea that will increase the risk of nuclear war. you don't know what he's going to be up to. certainly the fact that he has been so distracted, and even going out on the trip he was tweeting about hillary clinton and this phoney uranium scandal. he knows, as jennifer said, he knows nothing about the issues or countries and he's focused on his own political turmoil at home, and he's increasing the thought abroad if he has any credibility to begin with. i am embarrassed to see this man as our president, but i am doubling embarrassed when he's abroad representing our country because he has no idea how to behave in a remotely presidential fashion. >> 32% say they trust trump. you already have had shinzo abe, and donald trump according to the japan times newspaper make comments that he couldn't understand why a country of samurai warriors did not shoot down north korean missiles, and he already made that gaffe, and you have reporting that china already won in this trump era, and it has increased their leverage and power, and china has the whip hand over whatever happens in this region going forward because trump is president. >> they are going to exploit this opportunity about trump being overseas and how he's uninformed. there are several things china wants. they want u.s. troops out of south korea, and they want to not be prosecuted for theft of international property here in the united states, and they want business, they want to be able to get the contracts to rebuild american roads and infrastructure. they are likely to be able to get most of that because donald trump is going to be distracted by his meetings with putin and the chinese are going to wine and dine him the same way did the saudis. they see it on display, on the news and on twitter. they know avoid any of the staff because they don't matter anymore. it's all about getting directly to the guy. it's not by accident that shinzo abe spent half the day golfing with donald trump because that's far more productive for reaching their goals, having fancy dinners and a state dinner, far more productive than having a business-based policy conversation. >> jennifer, i talked to max about this, too, and i will start with you. this concept of american weakness is something we have talked about it before and the consequences of it and for americans that may not pay as much attention to foreign policy, if you could explain why this even matters? why does it matter if the president appears weak on the american stage? >> since world war ii the united states has been the superpower that held the international economic and political system together. we have not had a world war, at least not yet, thank goodness. we had a system of trade and the expansion of democracies and capitalism, and we did not sink into fascism after world war ii and that's because of the united states, we set certain rules of the road in trade and international behavior. when we don't play that role, when we seem to be cheering on the rogue states, when we give a hi-five to the president of the philippines who is engaged in extra judicial killings, that system begins to fray and fall apart. the result will be more conflict and more trade problems, and problems for the american business community, and it will be a demolition of the rights we hold dear. for donald trump going overseas, i am old enough to remember when he said he would make the best deals, and everybody else was a moron. he makes the worst deals, all you have to do is butter him up and roll out the red carpet and he will give you what he wants. the chinese are licking their chops figuring what they can get out of him and take him for a ride. >> how much damage is done when you have the american president fake facing the potential of his former national security adviser to be indicted for having done business with the regime in turkey and try to kidnap a man living in the united states doing charter schools to ship him back to turkey, i wonder from the point of view of those watching foreign policy from abroad, what must they be thinking? >> it's undermining everything the united states has stood for for more than seven years, and we go around the world telling other countries they need to have a free press and decrease corruption and have the rule of law and all of those things trump is undermining at home. how can you look at somebody like xi jinping and say to him don't use the chinese legal system to go after your political opponents when that's what trump is doing at home. this is everything the united states has stood for, donald trump is opposed to. i think it's leading to a loss of american credibility, to a loss of american moral authority. i don't think our democratic allies could trust us anymore. i was looking at a poll that shows the popularity of the u.s. president is down to 17% in south korea and 24% in japan from highs over 80% under president trump. if that continues it does long-term damage to the u.s. position in the world and that damage is to our security and economy. >> at the risk of wraouruining everybody's sunday, we want to hold you here and stay nearby. >>> coming up in the next hour, donna brazile is burning down the house. we will talk about that after the break. i can't wait for her to have that college experience that i had. the classes, the friends, the independence. and since we planned for it, that student debt is the one experience, i'm glad she'll miss when you have the right financial advisor, life can be brilliant. ameriprise i wanti did my ancestrydna and where i came from. and i couldn't wait to get my pie chart. the most shocking result was that i'm 26% native american. i had no idea. just to know this is what i'm made of, this is where my ancestors came from. and i absolutely want to know more about my native american heritage. it's opened up a whole new world for me. discover the story only your dna can tell. order your kit now at ancestrydna.com. >>> okay, to recap this morning's breaking news, sources tell nbc mueller has enough evidence to bring charges against michael flynn and his son. we will have the latest on that and the surprise power shift in the middle east when we come back. stay with us. building on over a hundred years of heritage, craftsmanship and innovation. today we're bringing you america's number one shave at lower prices every day. putting money back in the pockets of millions of americans. as one of those workers, i'm proud to bring you gillette quality for less, because nobody can beat the men and women of gillette. gillette - the best a man can get. it's ok that everybody ignores me when i drive. it's fine, 'cause i get a safe driving bonus check every six months i'm accident-free. and i don't share it with mom. right, mom? right. safe driving bonus checks, only from allstate. switching to allstate is worth it. only from allstate. discover card. i justis this for real?match, yep. we match all the cash back new cardmembers earn at the end of their first year, automatically. whoo! i got my money! hard to contain yourself, isn't it? uh huh! let it go! whoo! get a dollar-for-dollar match at the end of your first year. only from discover. >>> tons of breaking news this morning. multiple sources tell nbc news federal investigators have enough evidence to bring charges in their investigation of trump's former national security adviser, michael flynn and his son. and news this morning out of saudi arabia saudi arabia that have wide raping consequences for america and the middle east. the saudi kingdom arrested nearly a dozen members of the royal family as part of a supposed anticorruption sweep. they arrested one of the world's richest men. notably, a major critic of donald trump in recent years. the prince tweeted in december of 2015 just after then candidate trump proposed banning all muslims from traveling to the u.s., quote, you are a disgrace not only to the gop but to all america. withdraw from the u.s. presidential race as you will never win, of course. trump of course fired back dopey prince alwaleed talal wants to control our u.s. money. can't do it when i get arrested. the arrest appears to bolster the power of the 32-year-old crown prince of saudi arabia who enjoys a warm relationship with both trump and his son jared kushner who made an unannounced trip to saudi arabia last week. his third trip to the country last year. joining us is ayman mohyeldin has a great show on this very network. so much breaking news to talk to you about. let's talk about this nbc news exclusive that there's a potential at least that michael flynn could be -- or at least that there's enough evidence to potentially indict michael flynn and his son. >> this is one of those stories where it leads to one of the united states closest allies, turkey. a lot of the stuff that involves michael flynn, two things, one was his trip where he went overseas and spoke at an event that was sponsored by russia today which is the official state sponsored media. he sat next to russian president vladimir putin. that was something he never disclosed. that was a paid appearance. he never disclosed that to the military which, as i understand, something he was required to do. there is that legal implication. secondly, was the fact that we understand he was working on behalf of the turkish, i should be careful, business association here in the united states that has very close links to the turkish government. the turkish government was using this not directly as a lobbying arm, but using this business association to set up meetings with american businesses and what have you. michael flynn was someone in contact with that association, had meetings with them. there are questions as to whether or not he was indirectly lobbying for the turkish government here in the united states without declaring it. as we saw last week with the indictment involving paul man a for the, that was something bob mueller went after. >> for those who don't know and don't know the story, very briefly why would erdogan, the leader of turkey, want this guy who lives in pennsylvania in the poconos extra dikted? >> this is an islamic cleric that they're saying is the master mind of a coup and they want him extradited. they've labeled him as such. the united states is not convinced by that argument. they've been reluctant to turn him over. again, as we learned, michael flynn made the argument that this islamic cleric should be handed over to the turkish government. that was something the turks wanted. >> yeah, absolutely. let's go to the other big breaking news. a ton to talk about this morning. these arrests of 11 princes in saudi arabia, what is going on here? i think people who didn't know that fox news was partly -- one of the big investors in fox news is this prince that was arrested, what is going on here? >> i think you have to take a 10,000 foot approach and look at this in the context of ten years. we had a young deputy crown prince emerge on the scene in saudi arabia. since then he has tried to consolidate power. what we saw yesterday was perhaps the biggest attempt of him to consolidate power very quickly. he's doing so under the guise of fighting corruption. that is something that is very rampant. but he's doing this at the same time that some are saying, well, this seems to be a bit suspicious because there are people that he's gone after that he is accusing or at least others are accusing of sowing dissent within the kingdom and trying to destabilize the kingdom. the issue of succession is such an important issue in understanding saudi arabia. this is a young crown prince now. his father is the king and he moved him up the ranks very quickly over passing a lot of younger saudi royals. i think that has angered a lot. what we saw yesterday was his attempt to consolidate power by removing the head of the national guard and bringing all of the security forces under his control and at the same time going after very prominent well-known western billionaire business men and other princesses under the guise of we're fighting corruption. it builds a lot of support in saudi arabia. these are seen as popular moves. fighting corruption and what he's doing on the side. the recent ban to let women drive has been lifted. >> yeah. >> women will be allowed to go to sports events. concerts will be allowed in saudi arabia. movie theaters are opening up. young saudis watching this crown prince are excited. others are thinking he's consolidating too much power. there's a disastrous war in yemen that he's leading. >> this is a 32-year-old guy. jared kushner's age. has good relationship be with jared kushner and trump. is it too conspiratorial if americans look at this set of circumstances, donald trump's son-in-law jared kushner who is friendly with this new ban of saudi royals. just was there. just was there. then you have these arrests that include a prominent critic of donald trump's who's been sparring with him on twitter and now you have donald trump out there touting that he wants to see saudi aramco, which is the state owned oil company -- >> massive deal, yes. >> a huge deal. he wants to get listed in the united states. are these three things completely separate or are we seeing the saudis go after a donald trump enemy and curry favor with the american president? >> i don't think that they are separate. i don't know if it's as direct that we're going after an enemy of donald trump and so we're going to do that. what i do think it is is you have a young saudi leadership emerging on this scene. they realize they have a lot of interest with the united states as you just mentioned. one of them is the potential listing of aramco, the world's largest oil company, on the new york stock exchange which would in itself bring billions of dollars into the united states but also the fact that you have a young leadership that is trying to modernize his country, the united states is going to benefit from that economically. they want to see a modern liberal, economically and socially open saudi arabia. they're going to build on that. there's a convergence of interest and not necessarily values but interest, they threw out the red carpet for president trump when he came to saudi arabia. they know what language he speaks. that's why they're speaking that language. >> money. >> it's kind of like you do this for me, i'll do this for you. >> deals and money. i wish we have so much more time. >> we didn't get into it. >> unbelievably. >> we'll have you back. ayman mohyeldin. do not miss him tonight on his very new show. give us the name. >> we're calling it "the breakdown." >> ayman mohyeldin. >> that's going to be the hashtag. 5:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. if you missed it, you missed it. i can't tell you what to do after you missed it. >>> coming up, more breaking news about the investigation into michael flynn and his son. stay with us. tch me. ♪tch me. i've tried lots of things for my joint pain. now? 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>> oh, joy, we absolutely think it's broader. of course it involves his contacts with russian ambassador sergei kislyak. it's very much focused on his relationship with the government of turkey, the undisclosed lobbying that he did for which he was paid $530,000 and then what action he may have taken to seek to orchestrate the removal from the u.s. of this cleric. that's what's new here, we're saying that the fbi is looking into flynn's actions involving gulan and the question of whether he was offered millions of dollars in exchange for a promise to orchestrate the removal of gulan from the country. >> the spokesperson for the special counsel did not comment on this story. this is nbc's exclusive reporting. want to read you a little bit more from the story, ken, that you contributed to. michael flynn's son, michael g flynn accompanied him and briefly worked on the transition could be indicted separately or at the same time as his father according to sources if the elder flynn, this is the key part, is willing to cooperate with investigators. it could change his own fate potentially limiting any legal consequences. this sounds to me, ken, like the prosecutors are potentially setting michael flynn up to save his son or save himself. your thoughts? >> it does sound like that, joy. that's carefully worded. there's a reason why. we believe this is a developing situation and it may well be that one or more of these men cuts a deal, in which case we would not see charges. so what we're saying is they have enough evidence to bring charges. you're absolutely right, to the extent that michael flynn, the son, is implicated here and facing criminal jeopardy, it puts huge pressure on his father. it's one thing for his father to be facing potential prison term, but the idea that his son with a young baby at home could be in trouble has got to be weighing in on the former national security adviser's thinking. >> stay with us. i want to bring in my panel, ira hawk, max boot of the council on foreign relations, natasha bertrand, jeep never reuben and kareem jean pierre. michael flynn jr. is somebody a lot of people might remember from the campaign. he was prolific on twitter. things like pizza gate. how surprised are you in hearing that he, too, is drawn into this investigation? >> it's not surprising at all, joy. i mean, look, this brings a whole different meaning to the chant that he led of lock her up during the convention. i mean, look, joy, flynn failed multiple times to disclose his work with or for government official. now it seems like mueller is telling him, hey, either you cooperate or your son will go down. and now he has to make that decision. but it's not all that surprising. i think once manafort kind of went down on indictments on monday, we all expected flynn to be next. >> exactly. indeed. i think flynn is somebody that, natasha, a lot of people have expected to be eventually in the cross hairs. it was that early reporting that he was openly seeking immunity in exchange for cooperation. you had donald trump saying to jim comey, go easy on flynn and telling flynn after firing him in february, stay strong and things like that. one other interesting aspect of this is jim woolsey. the fbi had this report that the cia director, jim woolsey's account to the wall street journal which he confirmed to msnbc that flynn and turkish officials discussed a plan to forcibly remove a man named fatulla gulan in september of 2016, that that, too, is being investigated now. how much consternation and concern must there be on capitol hill now? >> michael flynn is someone who has increasingly lost credibility among republicans over the past couple of years. he was seen as a very credible figure over the obama administration. he was pushing back strongly over obama's policies in syria. >> he was the head of the defense intelligence agency? >> yes. he had a falling out in 2014. he was kicked out of the defense intelligence agency. ever since then with his kind of bizarre ties to russia, he traveled to moscow in 2015 to attend this r.t. gala. he's appeared several times to give commentary. he did some work for r.t. since then. he's lost a lot of credibility and i would not be surprised if people on the hill were now, you know, more than ever trying to distance themselves from this white house. first you have paul manafort indicted and now you have the first current or former, you know, trump foreign administration official to face charges. >> you have george papadopoulos cooperating. we don't know what that means. of this unknown band of foreign policy advisers that were named to the trump campaign, the one person who did have some stature and a track record was michael flynn. anita, i wonder if you could describe how much consternation there is inside the foreign policy world as to what happened to this guy? he was a high flying, fast-rising star within the defense intelligence establishment when he was named to dia, turfed out in 2014. is there any sense at what went wrong from there? >> that's a great question, joy. you have to savor the irony of a guy who at the republican national convention was leading chance of lock her up is now in serious danger of getting himself locked up. this is a tragedy. i've known mike flynn back to the time when he was the chief intelligence officer in afghanistan and before that the joint operations command. he had a terrific reputation as a very good tactical intelligence officer. he was very well respected which is why he became director of the defense intelligence agency. i have a picture in my office of me with mike flynn but then when he was fired from that job which he blamed on president obama, but which i think was the work of jim clapper, he seemed to snap. a lot of people who knew him said he seemed to snap. paling around with vladimir putin and getting engaged in the deals with turkey. it's a tragedy and disgrace. anybody who comes into the trump orbit will be tarred by the experience. >> not to mention the fact how could he not have anticipated any conversations he was having or sharing were being monitored because the russian end is being monitored? >> he read those transcripts himself when he was the director of the defense intelligence agency. how could he be so stupid and careless? >> it's mind boggling. we have donald trump on an over seas trip in asia, an important trip given the tensions with north korea and what's going on. the last time donald trump was on an important over seas trip he found himself dictating a misleading statement for his son donald jr. and jared kushner met with folks at trump tower. i'm wondering what must be happening on air force one as he travels from country to country today? >> people are trying to intervene between him and his cell phone and it's unfortunate that's the job of senior military leaders and diplomats to keep the president away from a toy that can get him in trouble. around him are 29 business leaders on this trip. that's important to understand because underpinning all of this and trump's real goals of how he deals with foreign policy and diplomacy are his business interests. just a few weeks ago the chinese government sent in some pe
