you mentioned briefly toward the end of the book a plan or proposal that was carried to london from jefferson davis in early 1865. i mean, right toward the end of the war. that in exchange for british recognition, the confederacy would promise to abolish slavery? i mean, was that a very specific plan? is. >> guest: it was very specific, and it's a fascinating mission called the duncan mission after the man who carried it who himself had been the large slave holder in the southern, in the confederate congress. so the fact that he had agreed to undertake this mission went a long way to persuading confederate members of congress. but they had to go along with the plan. it was, obviously, a last ditch plan. >> host: right. >> guest: but when the british confederates, especially the confederate ambassador james mason, received the land and heard about duncan kenner, he was appalled. in fact, he almost refused to -- >> host: right. he wouldn't let kenner go and see the foreign secretary about it. >> guest: no. he'd been out of the south for so long, he just couldn't believe it and did everything he

the attacks on 9/11, but i really do think lincoln was sort of thinking several chess moves ahead of jefferson davis in this situation, and may even with that sort of master stroke has ended up -- i won't say winning the war, but keeping the confederacy from winning the war in the crucial moment. my lincoln is a lincoln who goes from this sort of uncertain and in some ways bumbling guy to by the end of the book a few months into the presidency becoming well on his way to the great leader, the great president that we think of today. >> and was it unfair question -- was it union or slavery? >> for lincoln? >> yeah. >> i think for lincoln, union and slavery were sort of inseparable causes because the reason that the south was succeeding was because of slavery. it was a stand southerners were taking, welcome g -- willing to yield no further to what they called the slave power. this result was decreed by a national election in 1861, and so lincoln recognized that if he were to orchestrate some sort of a compromise, and he played his hands very interesting, candidly and a bit ambivalently during the

was he a sleeping giant that was allowed to slumber too long by jefferson davis? >> well, no, i don't think so because lee's experience in the first year of the war had been a succession of failure. after he had helped immobilize the virginia troops and then had joined the confederacy when virginia finally did join the confederacy, he had been sent out to deal with the problem in the western part of virginia which became west virginia where mcclelland actually had overseen successful union occupation of much of that area. then mcclelland was called to washington in july, and lee was sent out to western virginia to try to recover that area. in august of 1861. and every effort he made turned out to be a failure. he came into, came under all kinds of criticism from the richmond newspapers, he was called granny lee, as you suggest. then in november of 1861 jefferson davis sent him to the south atlantic coast to charleston just in time for lee to witness the capture of port royal by the union navy and the occupation of the south carolina and the georgia sea islands by

porter was able to get out of richmond on a train right behind president jefferson davis and his wife and the entire confederate cabinet. and he went all the way into north carolina, actually tried to go back into richmond but turned around and went back to north carolina. he actually met up with many members of his old command in north carolina. but they all told him to go on. war is over. he thought for a moment with some of the fellows he was with maybe we can keep going west and find a confederate army that is still in the field in louisiana or mississippi. what they did was they wandered all the way into georgia and wound up in the beautiful town of madison. the reason he went there was he had an uncle named john watson porter. railroad man and a banker. he showed up at john watson porter's house. this was in may of 1865. john watson porter took him in. no suitor did john porter take a quarter there's an three of his cousins show up, all of whom had ridden in morgan's command and just surrendered on the tenth of may in washington, georgia. these fellows were edward lowe hines, jo

and so john porter was able to get out of richmond on a train right behind president jefferson davis and davis' wife and the entire confederate cabinet. he went all the way into north carolina. actually tried to go back into richmond, but then turned around and went back into north carolina. he actually met up with many members of his only command? north carolina. but they all told him to go on. the war is over for us. he thought with some of the fellas that he was with, maybe he can keep going west and find a confederate army that's still in the field in loosen transmississippi. what they did, they wardennered all the way into georgia and wound out in the beautiful little town of madison, georgia. the reason that he went there was that he had an uncle living there who was name was john watson porter, very wealthy man, railroad man, banker. he shows up at john watson porter's house in may of 1865. and john watson porter took him in and no sooner did john porter take up quarters there than three of his dozens show up. all of whom had ridden in morgan's command with him, and all of who

that along with jefferson fathering the children with his slave girls. those two were the first two scandals in the beginning with the towning fathers. >> host: can you tell us more? >> in the case of hamilton, they discovered that hamilton had a unique financial agement with a man named james reynolds who hamilton was paying for the rights to sleep with his wife maria reynolds. and the democratic republican found out about this and proceeded to try to defame hamilton and derail his plan to create the national bank by exposing the sex scandal. but the thing -- opening up the sex discussion, boomeranged on jefferson. because the federalist dragged out the story and that jefferson was fathering his own slave children. what we see here is that the founding fathers themselves were not above using each other's sex scandals to score political points. in fact, it's part of the long tradition of american politics. >> go back to your -- your thought of if we weren't so focused on this, we would spend more time on the important issues. seems that we've had importa

and so john porter was able to get out of richmond on a train of left behind president jefferson tayler and davis' wife in the entire confederate cabinet. and he went all the way into north carolina and actually tried to go back into richmond but then turned around and went back into north carolina. he met up with members of the command in north carolina but they all told him to go on, the war is over for us and he fought for a moment with some of the fellows that he was with that maybe we could keep going the west and find a confederate army that is still in the field in louisiana or the trends mississippi. but what they did is they wander all the way into georgia and they wound up in that beautiful little town and the reason he went there and she had an ongoing living there. his name was john watson porter. a railroad man, a banker, and he showed up at john watson porter's house and this is in may of 1865, and john watson porter took him in and no sooner than john porter took up the quarters there three of his cousins show up all of them have been in morgan's command and all of whom h

the roosevelts, in the time of jefferson, none of the roosevelts thought very much of jefferson. so fdr kind of overdid this. and, once again, i think there should be a monument to thomas jefferson in washington, but that nice neoclass call structure that you see along the tidallal basin, and i've always thought was fdr's taste, the memorial, i think, is very much a 1990s view of franklin roosevelt. and, um, i say this partly out of, from design conviction. and i don't think the structure is what he would have particularly liked. but, also, it's franklin roosevelt that we now think about historically, and that is the franklin roosevelt of the new deal. the fdr memorial in washington heavily concentrates on the depression, it concentrates on his domestic policies, on his conservation, his stewardship of, of national parks and so on, all of which is true. but to the total exclusion of certain other aspects of him. you would never know that the great conservationist was also one of the great dam builders of the 20th century which is somewhat anathema in our time, but fdr thought tha

he was thomas jefferson's air, the foremost champion of personal liberty and this time. when he was a boy i darrow like to say the hired man had dignity. he would dine with the family of the employer. he shared their pew on sunday and he would court the bosses daughter. there were new banks, no stores and very little money. nobody had a monopoly of riches or poverty. the community was truly democratic but the nation's founding principles were stretched beyond recognition in their warped the industrial age. a shrewd and lucky few made great fortunes. carnegie and steel, morgan and finance rockefeller in oil and it it should be to their success to god, hard work and plucky and they find it in the writings of herbert spencer the comfort of an assurance that the poor deserve their life. is natures way of furthering the race by weeding out the week. the order the managers to lower costs and when workers organize unions private armies and local militias were summoned to break up the strikes and demonstrations often with volleys of rifle fire. corning to the courts the workers

you mentioned at the end of the book briefly a plan or proposal that was carried to london from jefferson daifers in early -- davis in early 1865 to the end of the war in exchange for british recognition, the confederacy promised to abolish slavery. was that a specific plan? >> guest: it's very specific and a fascinating mission named after the man who carried it. himself, the largest slave holder in the con confederate congress. the fact he agreed to undertake the mission went a long way to persuading confederate members of congress they had to go along with the plan. it was a lost hitch plan, but when the british confederates and especially the confederate ambassador received the plan and heard about it, he was appalled. in fact, he almost refused to deliver the message. >> host: right. he wouldn't let him see the secretary about it. >> guest: he was out of the south so long, that he doesn't believe it and did everything he could to sabotage the message until the last second where he hinted about it to the prime minister. you could see it coming a mile away this was the proposal, and th

so we go from jefferson to robert lucas to samuel vinton to steven douglas, and jefferson returns to the american map. well, here he is again. when you leave here today, you will know why stephen douglas was famous before he debated a one-term congressman who lost the election and two years later ran for president. um, the other piece of legislation that dealt with slavery that stephen a. douglas was a great participant in was the compromise of 1850. that was a package of five bills, and he was involved in two of them in particular, but the one i want to talk about is texas. texas went it entered the union, it had been a republic and was much larger than the texas we have today. it continued further north all the way to wyoming tapering it as it went. it relinquished all of its land north of 36 degrees, 30 minutes because the missouri compromise was still in effect, and they had slavery in texas, and they wanted to keep it, so they left the united states at that land. but it still included all the land east of the rio grande which is today the eastern half of new mexico that you see

you mentioned briefly toward the end of the book a plan or a proposal that was carried to london from jefferson davis in early 1865, right toward the end of the war in exchange for british recognition. the confederacy would promise to abolish slavery. was that a specific plan? >> very specific. a fascinating mission. the man who carried it who himself had been the largest slaveholder in the confederate congress. the fact that he had agreed to undertake this mission when a long way to persuading confederates, members of congress that they had to go along with the plan. obviously a last-ditch plan, but when the british could federates receive the plan and heard about it, he was appalled. in fact, he almost refused to get it amended. >> would not go see it. >> out for so long. he could not believe it. everything he could to sabotage the message until the very last. the prime minister. you could see it coming a mile away. the proposal. no. not about slavery. just to shut them up. >> the u.s. did sign a treaty with britain to suppress the african slave trade. the clinton administration agreed. this