tv America Tonight Al Jazeera December 10, 2013 4:00am-5:01am EST
[ singing ] >> a day of remembrance and celebrations. tens of thousands gather to honour the life of nelson mandela. >> hello, i'm here at the f.n.b. stadium in soweto, where the world is paying its respects to nelson mandela. >> hello, live from doha withage of the memorial service. more than 70 powerful leaders of the world are attending.
some will be making speeches. people have come from far and wide to take part. >> we've been singing the whole night. >> right now tens of thousands of people, including some of the most powerful in the world are inside a stadium in johannesburg. they are there for a memorial service for nelson mandela and these are pictures live from the venue where the event is getting underway. the seats are filling up quickly. more than 70 world leaders are at the event with speeches expected from the south african president, jacob zuma, u.s. president obama, and u.s. vernal
-- certainly ban ki-moon - just a few of the speakers. the services are taking place at the f.n.b. stadium, built for the football world cup which south africa opened in 2010, and where nelson mandela had his last appearance. the stadium has room for 95,000, many dignitaries and heads of state and members of the public. there are locations sets up where people can watch the event at the memorial service on a big screen in case they can't get to f.n.b. stadium. one is orlando and dobsonville stadium in soweto. the others are further east in ellis park, and those that can't make it to any of those venues, there are big screens in public places in all provinces across the country. >> dignitaries began to arrive
at the stadium for the ceremony. arch bishop desmond tutu joined by former president jimmy carter. f.w. de klerk arrived in the last half hour. he dismantled apartheid. f.w. de klerk passed legislation that repealed discriminatory laws transformer south africa into a multicultural society. >> mike hannah is in the stadium and haru mutasa has been outside the stadium. you have been there watching tens of thousands. what have they told you.
>> listen to them. they have been doing this - singing and dances. they are here to pay respects to nelson mandela. i have a mother and her son who are white south africans that have come to the stadium. despite the bad weather and the cold, ma'am, you came out. why is that? >> because madeba made me so proud to be a south african. i'm proud. he embraces everything we are want for our land. yes, we are going to carry on with his legacy. >> coming down here to celebrate his life, did you think you'd see something like this. >> in a way i did. but i never thought this day would be possible. it makes me truly proud to be a south african. it is so great that the world
has - world leaders descended on madeba. it's a fitting tribute to a great man. i think where he is put in efen, i think -- in heaven, i think he's smiling from above. it's just - mum and i are just so proud to be south african. he left such a wonderful legacy. i think we should embrace it and we should continue with his legacy. >> thank you both very much. >> it's not just south africans, it's people from nigeria and the rest of africa coming to pay their respects. >> it's obviously raining behind you, but traditionally that's a good sign, isn't it. it means that the ancestors are smiling on the event and it will rain all the way to the funeral.
>> exactly. in africa when it rains, it's a good thing for us. people here are smiling. they are happy to be here. they can't wait tore the ceremony -- wait for the ceremony and the memorial ceremony. he wasn't pushed or a saint. he did so much to move the country forward. he taut the world that it was -- taught the world that it was possible to forgive. >> how easy or difficult is it to get there? i'm interested in what sort of security is in place. >> there's a lot of security. there's police, soldiers, and everyone coming in is being checked. people are told to meet at designated places, if they come by buses or trains and march or run down to the stadium. it's taking a bit of a protest. some of the roads are closed, but there has been some delays. it's unlikely the program will
start on time. it will be a bit late. everyone here is waiting for it to start. no matter how late it gets or how hard it rains, people have been waiting so long. >> let's leave it there. we'll be talking to you. we are looking at live pictures from the stadium where dig nate ris, 70-0 or so are filing and and tens of thousands of sav caps, or memorial services in south africans. people are singing and dancing, and that is probably what i love about south africans and ability to celebrate life or death and the message that nelson mandela sent to the rest of the world about unity and forgiveness. it is raining, people are filling up the stadium. there's m thabo mbeke who took
over as leader after nelson mandela. >> after the ceremony in soweto the public will be able to pay their respects in the government union buildings in victoria. that's where nelson mandela will lie in state for three days from wednesday through to friday. on saturday he'll be transported to the family home in qunu. on-sunday the funeral will take place, and he'll be buried in a family plot there. >> joining us in the studios is a political analyst who use to head the university. we were talking about everyone celebrating. there's an amazing feeling in the country that even though it's a sad event... >> it's a life to be celebrated.
>> extraordinary what that man passed on and what he was able to do. >> absolutely. one cannot but think this is a life well lived despite 27 years in prison. despite the fight and the sacrifices and family life that he missed for so long. and, of course, the unspoken and unsung sacrifices of many south africans who lost their lives or loods livelihoods or family members. a time to celebrate a giant of a man, an mahatma - as people in india would say - great spirit that left what cannot be an enduring legacy for the country. >> we have been talking to a lady. we have to carry on and can't let the reconciliation drop.
do you think south africa will be boyed to make the changes necessary? >> absolutely. i think south africans by in large in the reference rens for the system humanity of madeba, one-his assets was not just on the freedom or upholding of the right of south africans but his right for justice around the globe, until that flight is concluded, until people all over the world realise civil and political rights, madiba's job will be incomplete. it's up to us. >> you mentioned mahatma gandhi.
if we go through a list of speakers. this is what nelson mandela told thabo mbeke. we have namibia, india, china, and some of the speakers there - what do you make of his choice, what do you think his message is by choosing the countries. there has been, between the south african freedom fight and the anticolonial fights in other countries, particularly in many of those that you mentioned now, a sense of solidarity of brotherhood, of fraternal feeling, as it were, that they are all fighting the good fight, a fight for the freedom of their fellow human being, as i said earlier. that is the message - that in the global self, there have been
gross injustices. there has been some pretty amazing leaders, nelson mandela himself, of course being at the forefront. there's a mantle to carry on, that he expects his brothers in those countries to continue that fight. in the last hour or so we saw the u.n.'s ban ki-moon arriving. castro - this will be interesting, castro and barack obama. and francis hollande - we believe he will leave this to go to the central african republic because obviously all the problems there, and the impact the french are having there. let's go back to cuba and the u.s. that will be interesting. the cuban archenemies, shows how nelson mandela was could at bringing people together. >> absolutely, and his enduring
belief that if you could get people to talk, despite the differences they connect because of common humanity. it's a powerful simple message that if you bring people around a table you get them to make concessions and negotiate and see each other as human being. he said - he said so many p profound things. amongst them is the message about the human heart declining towards love and hate. >> he's absolutely true. he had the will and the condition at the moment. it's interesting that we have barack obama there, the black american president. nelson mandela, first black south african president. but nelson mandela was on the u.s. terrorist list until 2008.
extraordinary. >> absolutely. and to some extent, it's a little dismaying, you know, at a personal level, i feel somewhat nausiated, to be blunt about it, by the level of hypocrisy of some leaders who are lauding nelson mandela today and in the days since his death who were against the poll says that he stood for and are trying to whitewash his legacy to brush over the fact that he was a freedom fighter and believed in redistribution of wealth and land particularly. that he showed a great deal of solidarity with the palestine cause; that he vehemently opposed the war in iraq; that he stood by the cast roes and
cubans. we are looking at hamid karzai from afghanistan. he is arriving, talking about the spread of his reach and word. some people might find controversial. >> he was one of the elders, and we saw them arriving. what sort of impact have they made? i think they have taken the message of nelson mandela to heard. if you look at the kind of work that people like desmond tutu, richard branson, mary robinson have been doing as part of the group of elders, i think it becomes very, very obvious. a sense of need to work towards a better world, a more sustainable world, has permeated their consciousness, and they were dedicated to the cause passionately. i believe mr nelson mandela had
a lot to do with that. >> you met him three times. >> briefly on three occasions, once in london, once at a little school at the start of my professional career, and once 10 years ago on his 85 years at at a university where they celebrated his birthday. all threes times, you cannot help but know you are in the presence of something very unique. >> it's extraordinary. >> it's more than power, more than charisma. it's a sense of - sounds almost idiotic or inane to say it. it's a sense of a great love emanating from him. the spirit. he was a great spirit. >> talking of being great spirits and how this is playing out and we have had - it will be - by the time he's buried it will be 10 days after he died.
he'll go to qunu, where he grew up. the libyan leader has just arrived at the stadium. how do you think it will play out between the old traditional values and current values, different cultures. how will that play out during the funeral. >> i think a lot of what is happening in the 10 day period leading to the burial is meant to be public and allow the south african public and the world at large to participate in the memorial of nelson mandela. once his body is taken to qunu, i think it's then really the
tradition kicks in, the culture kicks in, that, you know, he's a member of the royal tribe in the eastern cape, if you want. that those cultural aspects and traditional rights will come into play. that is why i believe that the access to the burial itself has been limited to a large extent. we are seeing very public participation in the memorial service today, in the event that was held at the nelson mandela in the last few days, et cetera. we'll see a private, more intimate portrayal of the person of nelson mandela, not the
president or the former president, not the politician or the freedom fighter, but the person that belongs to his tribe and family on saturday and sunday. >> we are going to mike hannah now who a joining us from inside the f.n.b. stadium. we have seen thousands of south africans streaming in, lots of dig nate race. i saw you speaking to f.w. de klerk. what have people been telling you. >> it's difficult to hear you at the moment because of the huge noise that you are hearing behind me here as all the dignitaries arrive on the platform. we have seen a former south african president thabo mbeke arriving. the crowd at the moment far below expectations.
maybe bleak and seasonal weather has something to do with that, as it has been raining. generally you have seen at the memorial service a sense of celebration. many here are intent on mourning nelson mandela's death and celebrating a life. that is the message i have been hearing from dignitaries too. i spoke to former president thabo mbeke. he said, "we have to remember the legacy and celebrate the life." the same words came from another former president, clef. de klerk. we must act the way we want others to do. that is the message emanating from the stadium of this day as the people of soweto and dig nate ris from earned the world come to pay respects.
>> tell us about the list of speakers, how it was compiled and the significance of who will be doing the speaking. >> well, it is a very interesting list of heads of state who will be delivering addresses here. out of the six members, there's a common threat that runs through them. they are all previously under the control of colonial powers. now, in those six, we have the united states. we have been told that this was at the special request of the nelson mandela family because of nelson mandela's close relationship and admiration for the united states. then you have china. we understand that china was selected because this was a country that supported nelson mandela and the national congress in the 1950s before he went to prison. namibia is the chair of south
african's conference, brazil is south africa's knew orientation. sav yeah liking to the south for partnership rather than the north. south afri south africa being a member of the alliance of southern countries. the exclusion is the fact there's no head of states from the u.k. or, indeed a representative from the commonwealth speaking at the funeral. this is surprising given south africa's links with the u.k. and given it is a member of the commonwealth. it would appear to be a pointed diplomatic snub. i'm told by spokesmen from the president's office that they can't comment. this list of speakers displays south africa's diplomatic associations of the present and the future. it's looking to the south rather to the north, to the east rather than to the west.
it's a shuffling of a country that once looked to the u.k., to the west and europe for support and development. it's looking the other direction. we know too, that nelson mandela would have had a say in which heads of states would speak at his funeral. clearly from beyond the grave he is continuing to define and help delineate south africa's diplomatic policy into the future. >> we can expect nothing left. religion was not something that he spoke a lot about. what do you think this tells us about him and the messages again? once again i didn't quite get the question. i think what you were talking about is at the end of this
service, it's an interesting clue as to nelson mandela the man. the one thing that he refused to discuss throughout his lifetime was religion, he said that is something between himself and god. we see on the list of speakers a man that will be speaking, making final prayers is the south african, the head of the world council or general secretary of the world council of methodist churches, a nelson mandela list that a methodist minister, the religion in which he grew up and very privately practised throughout his life is the man that will say the final prayers at his memorial service. >> there'll be a tribute by andrew malagandi, part of the maloney trial that sealed the fate of nelson mandela.
it really shows the journey that nelson mandela and those who were accused have been on. andrew blangeni is a person of the same age of nelson mandela, they were in gaol in robben island together. when he ascends the stage to deliver respects as one of nelson mandela's closest and longest friends, he'll speak for those who know nelson mandela, many gone. incidentally, interesting to look back. in 1993 on the then president of the a.n.c. he decide. 10 years later the death of a cell mate, friend, fellow lawyer sulu of nelson mandela for decades. and 2013, 10 years, the death of
nelson mandela. but what mangeni will be talking about is remembering the old comrades, not just nelson mandela, but all those who fought with him, were in a cell with him and many who predeceased him will be remembered in the course of this day. >> as you were talking, we were looking at live pictures of many of the dignitaries there. des-monday -- desmond tutu said some time back that south africa lost its moral compass. are people frightened with the passing of nelson mandela, that the country could unravel or is there a sense of hope that his legacy will continue, that people will carry on with his legacy. >> well desmond tutu, once again very clearly, stating that
point. huge cheers you are hearing behind me - if i may interrupt - are for the president of china. as i mentioned earlier, china, one of south africa's - well, nelson mandela's south africa's oldest friend. they were the country that supported the a.n.c. and nelson mandela when many in the west saw nelson mandela as nothing more than a terrorist deserving of a prison sentence. to get back to that point much desmond tutu, yes, he's on the record as saying, "we have lost our moral compass", we are in danger of going in the wrong direction. i spoke to him earlier. he is making clear his point that the death of nelson mandela is a moment for the country to redefine itself, to reflect on where it has gone wrong and a moment for it to rededicate itself to the legacy that nelson mandela left, and that is a commitment to democracy, a
refusal to accept the oppression of any one race to the other and the fact that all within this country live in proper economic freedom, not just political freedom. desmond tutu uttering what many others on this day have been saying, that this is on occasion not only to commem rate the death of nelson mandela, but to celebrate what he stood for and in so doing, reorientated a country that many believed was in danger of losing at desmond tutu said...
>> in death as in life one of nelson mandela's greatest gifts is his unique ability to bring people together. thousands of south africans are packing a stadium in johannesburg to pay tribute to the former leader. >> they are not alone, as you can see. >> dozens of leaders from around the globe, including barack obama and three former presidents are on hand to mourn the death and celebrate the life. that is what we are seeing. celebrating the life of an admired man.
>> it is a send-off fit for a global icon. heads of states join leejened of south africans. good morning and welcome to al jazeera america. i'm stephanie sy. >> i have glasses on my heads. what is going on. let's look at the live pictures from f.n.b. stadium, known as soccer city. that was winnie walking in to the stadium. just a moment ago, as you can see the memorial is more of a celebration really of the incredible life of nelson mandela. we have watched before coming on air pictures of people who have been singing and dancing, really joyfully. the stadium will be by the end of the day, and this is graca
mandela. >> she is his widow, and clearly a day of sadness for his immediate family. we have seen a lot of celebration in the stadium and emotional farewell. he died thursday at the age of 95. thousands lined up outside the stadium. the dismand is so great african officials are sending the overflow crowds to three smaller stadiums. they'll have large video screens showing the event. s&b stadium - you recognise it's the largest stadium. it hosted the games in 2010 in the world cup, and it's where he gave his speech when he got out of robben island prison. he attended the closing ceremony, his health declined.
>> on this day, presidents, prime ministers, dig nate ris. from 88 countries are on hand. if you imagine the gathering and the challenge, dare i say, the list includes a gathering of u.s. presidents and president obama, bill clinton, carter and george w. bush. the last gathering that even compares in size, scope, magnitude in pope john paul ii. the list of speakers is president obama, u.n. secretary-general ban ki-moon, and four of his grandchildren. >> there are a couple of people that lived parallel lives to nelson mandela. after the memorial service nelson mandela's body will lie in state in pretoria.
he'll be buried in his home village of qunu, it's in the east of the country, close to the ocean. >> we have team coverage. al jazeera's ali velshi is outside the stadium, and allen schauffler is inside. we have special guest in studio was. >> we have an assistant professor of anthropology at columbia university and a professor of higher education at new york university. she is was appointed to a commission dear to nelson mandela. first to allen schauffler inside the stadium. one thing comes to mind looking at the atmosphere - i imagine this is a bittersweet day for south africans. >> i would doubt that. everybody i have spoken to said
the bittersweet part spoke before. you should have seen the crowd boil through the gate. when the gates opened at 6:30. those crowds have been in the stand for soccer city to stay out of the pouring rain. they have been dancing, chanting and singing since 6:30 in the morning. extraordinary. they have been exploding in cheers as they see people introduced on the big screens. winnie mandela coming in, ban ki-moon with the u.n. before that. huge cheers, rock star cheers for the world leaders as they assemble here. we do not have full house. 92,000 capacity. we are half full at this point. it's likely that the rain that we have had all night and morning life is keeping the crowd down. it looks like we are running late. we expected to be well into the program. clearly things are backed up and
running a little behind as they get all the world leaders into position. an extraordinary scene. >> a quick question for you. my understanding is, and maybe you saw this and you can bear witness to this. my understanding is that there were people gathering yesterday, lining up yesterday to be one of the first in line to gain entrance to the stadium. is that correct. >> i didn't see it myself, but i heard the same thing and there was a good crowd here when we arrived at 5:30. 500 or so people at various gaits. i have no doubt that people travelled a long distance in some cases and came to the stadium. so they could be here. it's a day to remember in history and a lot of people came a long distance to be here. >> allen schauffler. we'll continue to check in with you. he's live at the stadium where
he described a celebratory mood. there has been comments about the rain. one radio announcer said perhaps the heavens are weeping today. the defense minister of south africa said, "it's a blessing from the ancestor's welcoming a son of the soil." so i want to bring in our two guests here. both of whom have interesting stories about south africa and nelson mandela. i want to start with you, can you help us understand the sell bratry atmosphere that we are seeing. >> i think he earnt his celebrations. i think south africa has been expecting the moment. now that it's arrived people are feeling a mixture of sadness. it's a long life well lived. >> i have to have you talk about the moment that we saw just a
few seconds ago. how extraordinary. we saw winnie mandela walk over and embrace graca machel. on a day when there will be hundreds of moments that we recall, years from now, stephanie, that immediately is the first i will never forget is the moment moments ago when the two women came together in a hug and embrace. >> that's what they call ubuntu in south africa - being human. on days like this we put differences aside. we embrace people we love. it happens in families, many families, so for me it's not unusual. south africans expected that. there would be no animosity between these two. >> there would be no hard feelings. historically in the family
there'd not been animosity. they celebrated birthdays, christmases together. special days together. this is not unusual. it's not like a surprise like together's happening when they both say goodbye to the man they love. i heard graca machel as recently as yesterday saying that nelson mandela was the love of nelson mandela's -- that winnie mandela was the love of nelson mandela's life. >> yes, he played a role for so many years. we cannot erase that in history, the role that she played, so it would be really, really unfair at this moment to say she should take a back seat and not be there. >> they were both there at his bedside when he died on thursday. >> yes. >> i want to go back out to the
stadium where al jazeera's ali velshi join us. he's outside the service. with things about to get underway, what has the mood been like at f.n.b. stadium? >> i can hardly hear you guys because i have this going on. this is what has been happening. this has been going on haul mourning, for hours and hours and hours. i haven't seen a tear shed. it's not full, by the way, from talking to alan because of the rainment people are coming in. they are having a great time. where are you from, sir. >> i don't see sadness, i see celebrations. we must celebrate. he's a great man, there's nothing we can do. all we can do is take his legacy and remake it. >> has enough happened with the legacy. is there enough change for blacks in south africa in unity coming your way?
>> i don't care and anybody says, south africa will remain stable already madeba is gone. he taught us well. at the end of the day we'll proceed and be strong and make our children grow. >> the children have never seen apartheid. >> they have never. >> are things different to them than they were for you? >> very different. we used to run away from the police. >> now they are here. you even like the police now. >> yes, they are our friends. >> i know you want to go inside, the celebration is going on. good luck and enjoy yourself. [ chants ] >> that is the spirit we have outside f.n.b. stadium, soccer
city. this woman is coming in, not nearly as boisterous. why are you here? >> i'm here to pay my last respects. i will not stay long. just for 30 minutes. then i'll go to the other stadiums, orlando, and then i will go to puk station to watch from the screen. why are you celebrating this change. so many people told me not enough has changed in south africa. apartheid has been over for more than 19 years. >> for some of us we see change. we are more peaceful, loving. he taught us to love. he has given us a change. our children are returning to school. we are having houses. there is a change. >> you enjoy your celebration, thank you for being with us. this is a story we'll come back to - come back whenever you want. we are talking to people.
the ceremony has begun, you can here the hymns and we are outside soccer stadium. >> allen schauffler is inside the stadium. what can you tell us about what you are seeing now? >> we are seeing a lot more of what ali was seeing outside. pure celebration and enjoyment. dedication to a man loved by people. people are saying this is a day to celebrate. >> we are running 45 minutes behind schemed. we are seeing world leaders come in and be introduced. we haven't heard the national anthem. that will kick off the ceremony, we hadn't seen it happen. it was scheduled for 11. >> what can you tell us about the security and what that was right. we are told the south
africans dusted off the security plan from the world cup in 2010. >> security has been tightening. when we came in here, hundreds of journalists and people, thousands came through the gates. no tickets or bag checks. through the day we have seen camera levels of security of course, as world leaders arrived. security is zens. heavy police brens. as you can see in the field in front of a stage where things will happen, there's a soccer pitch, a huge area, a barrier between the crowds and the people. it sounds like things are about to get underway. we expect the national anthem. we hear from a lot of world leaders. allen schauffler reporting from inside the stadium, where clearly the crowds gather.
>> i want to go to our guests here. this spirit of celebration that we see now, we need to make a point that we have seen this throughout nelson mandela died on thursday, and then there was an outpouring of grief and emotion. we saw that. just as quickly the switch was flipped and we see scenes like we saw young people, this born free, a celebration, those born after nelson mandela was released from prison. we saw them in celebration. i wanted to come to you, both of you and ask what is it like for the young people asked to carry the torch. they get a wonderful send-off. they get to hear about the qualities of the man, and then they get the change of living
and emulate in their own way that life. >> yes. i mean i think there is a sense in which nelson mandela's shoes are too big for anyone to fit into, right. there's a way in which he's awesome, extraordinary. the nobody -- nobodility and the sense of history, he lived through so much. people are overwhelmed, younger generations overwhelmed. at the same time... >> it's a wonderful challenge. >> it is, it's inspiring and he's become so saintly many people find him inspiring and separate him from the current political situation. >> we have been showing pictures of the fam will -- family and they are the last to arrive. they are in a sombre mood.
it's a loss not just to south africa, but the father and grandfather. they are mourning. >> yes, yes. we cannot underestimate personal lose. obviously now that he's an international and national icon we lose site of the fact that he has intimate family relationships, people that he didn't spent time with because he was in prison for 27 years. >> he made so many sacrifices. >> right. and they were one of the biggest sacrifices. the family is honest enough to say, "we missed him when we grew up. we would have liked to have had dad around more." they'll say, "you know what, when we did get him back he was awkward with his emotions. he would call us in", and you wouldn't want the moment being dressed down by nelson mandela, but he'd say to the kids, the
grandkids, "you're not behaving properly", or, "you look like a nelson mandela today or you are dressing like a nelson mandela toda today." the family is putting a human face on the man who for many is an icon. >> not just an icon actually a grandfather to many children. those born frees see him as an elder, as a grandparent and you should remember in south africa there's a lot of children growing up without the grandfathers, who died because life span is short, many who are living without fathers because father died early in life. i was touched by the story of one child. i went to a clinic with students from n.y.u. and we went to pay
tribute to put the flowers there. there was this little boy standing there and he had a little letter and one of the students talked to him said, "why are you here, tell me more?" he was sad, crying and he said, "what is going to happen when madeba dies. i look up to him as my father", he said, "we must get an education and go to school." my student didn't know what to do, but he pulled out money and said, "i'll contribute to what will help with your education."
potentially was the puppetmaster to what was to come next for the country. put us on the ground. what was that like? >> i would say it was an amazing moment. but it's a scary moment for a lot of people. >> it's like releasing a terrorist. remember he was classified as a terrorist by the u.s. >> what is he going to do? >> the terrorist is working from prison. i mean, when you talk about the prisoner working out they have some kind of dignity making you scared. that was a different kind of prisoner. somebody who the majority of the county, black and white, when the majority, i'm not just referring to black people. they saw him as a liberator. pockets of society that changed. time to prepare to run away from the country. time to go into the...
time to go into the count rip. >> who was this man. the government worked to remove his image, his likeness so you knew nothing about the man. now he is working out of prison. >> you knew something, something negative all the time. >> enough was known about nelson mandela that college students in this country decided to go and rally for these investments in south africa, to rally for sanctions against south africa. enough was known that when he came out he was championed as a hero. a lot thing of nelson mandela as an ideaist. from you i want to know how did he perform as a statesman to get to the point where he came out of prison, 27 years and come out and bridge the divide
politically. he must have been adroit as a politician to do that. what made the transformation possible. what happened before he came out of prison. the statesmanship was the private and secret negotiations that took place from the 1980s onwards when he was still prisoner. the apartheid state presented an if as art of a lock down on robin island. they were negotiating with the african congress and nelson mandela. that's where he played the statesman role perfectly. he made sure, for example, that he didn't suffer fools. the apartheid was going through the reformer state.