tv Consider This Al Jazeera January 7, 2014 9:00am-10:01am EST
and why is there disagreement over the government's role to solve the problem? anxiety succeed. >> "downtown abbey" is a hit, but does it accurately portray the relationship between the masters and their many servants. >> we begin with the fall of fallujah, the battle for the city in 2004 was the biggest urban operation for u.s. troops since the vietnam war. fighters were defeated in a fight that killed thousands of them, but left 100 americans da. was the battle in vein. since american troops left the security situation deteriorated rapidly. according to the u.n., 7,870 were killed last year, the highest number in many years. al qaeda returned to fallujah and ramadi with a vengeance. >> joining us from watertown massachusetts, is a
former marine private who fought in the battle of fallujah, and is the director of justice for fallujah, an advocacy group dedicated to raising awareness about the problems with fallujah weem. >> and douglas ollivant, a retired army officer who served in fallujah, and on the security council during the bush and clinton administrations. great to have you with us. ross you fought in the battle for fallujah as a marine. what did you think when you heard it fell to militants? >> it's not clear too me that the city fell to militants. honestly, i felt like history was repeating itself. we are hearing the same rhetoric used to justify another assault on the city. in both cases claims were made
that al qaeda took control of the city and heavy-handed military response was needed to liberate the city. in 2004 that turned out not to be true. there was al qaeda in the city. they were very minimal, playing a marginal role in the resistance taking place then. today a lot of the reports that i'm getting from my contacts in fallujah is that al-qaeda and al qaeda-linked groups are minimal, playing a marginal role in the fighting. today it's mostly tribal militias fighting against government forces. unfortunately i think the same situation is playing out - the city is being destroyed and citizens harmed. >> douglas, do you agree with ross, that the role of al-qaeda is overstated? >>
i agree we don't really know what is going on. i suspect a convoy of 60, 70, 80 al qaeda drove in, maybe met by tribal forces. it will be interesting to see how this plays out in the next few days. some republicans are putting some of the blame for what is happening now on the obama administration. senators john mccain and lindsey graham released this statement saying: >> doug, does the u.s.s deserve some blame. should the administration have
iraq. >> i'm critical of the administration when they deserve it. in this proposition, they don't the the united states doesn't put forces where we can't get legal guarantees that they won't be prosecuted. full stop. the only way to do that is for their council of representatives, their parliament, to pass a bill saying u.s. forces will not be prosecuted under their law. that was not going to happen. you weren't going to get the fallujah, and others to agree to let the combat forces stay. the administration, i think, did the right thing and got us out of iraq in 2011. it did settle down. we have an al qaeda problem in iraq. those shooting at us have been quiet. they wanted us to leave. >> the shi'a, but the sunni side
is the issue. statement. they said: >> ross, when you hear that, talking about engagement, do you start worrying that this could mean troops on the ground? >> i certainly wouldn't agree with it if that were the case. you know, my perspective as an american citizen, concerned with what my government is doing, and wanting to feel my government is doing the right thing, i feel we have to withdraw support for the maliki government. they are oppressive. they are using violence to crush political opposition. undemocratic. they are selling weapons to the
regime, and that's what they are killing civilians with in fallujah. all support needs to be withdrawn from them. >> i'll let you weigh in on that. no support at all? >> prime minister nouri al-maliki is the elected prime minister of that country. it may not be perfect, but it was good. government formation was messy, but he emerged as the prime minister and that's more legitimacy than most governments in the region have. it's incumbent on us to support him. if he has no longer the prime minister in april, he has no longer the prime minister. we want a democracy in iraq, let's see what it gives us. >> wouldn't it be worse if it falls apart? >> worse for who? >> if you have a civil war between the sunnis and the shia. >> they are having a war between the government and the population in anbar province. >> secretary of state john kerry
and the white house made clear they planned to support iraq militarily but there'll be no troops. this is what was said on monday. >> we have, as secretary of state john kerry said, made a significant commitment to helping the iraqi government in dealing with that situation. and what secretary of state john kerry's point was, and this is a broader point about conflict in the season, this is something for the iraqis to take a lead on and handle themselves. >> now, doug, you spent time in iraq dealing with security issues. you worked on a security council, can the nouri al-maliki government solve the problem by themselves. what nouri al-maliki asked for when he came to the united states in november was for us to sell him, give him, sell him the wep jons that he needs to defend
his country against all threats, not only al qaeda, but to stand up to iran, so iran can't influence as much as it does. coming back to anbar, what maliki is saying is you have to step up. if you truly want to be part of iraq, you have to demonstrate you are not going to tolerate al qaeda in the midst. you are right about that. throw them out, kill them, do what you need to do. demonstrate that you don't turn to violence when you don't like the way the province is going. >> anbar being the province where this is all going on. ross caputi, douglas ollivant, thank you both for your time. >> for more, i'm joined by jacob shapro, from princeton university, assistant professor of politics and international affairs, he's researched insurge
sis in iraq, afghanistan and elsewhere and served as an officer in the navy, enforcing u.n. resolutions in the for the united states in persian gulf. >> why are we back in this position? 2004 was the bloodiest battle for our troops. how did this unravel? >> fundamentally it's a failure of the iraqi political progress. in 2006, 2007 and 2008 there was basically a bargain between the political forces and others which got them to turn against foreign fighters and others who had come into their territory to fight against the iraqi government, against the u.s. forces. that deal was between the political organizations and the coalition, not between them and the iraqi government. in fact, one of the untold stories of that time and of the surge was the role that u.s.
forces played in intermediating and stopping the conflict between the iraqi army and local militias. you have to situation in 2006, 2006 and 2008. as the war wound down, what didn't happen was a political settlement or deal that was sustainable between the sunni population. so you had... >> once the u.s. pulls out and then the shia government led by nouri al-maliki today, it had not really brought the sunnis into the democratic process. >> exactly, it didn't make a deal that was better for them. at the start of 2013 you had a process movement in anbar, to protest and you had people coming out in the street, demonstrating in peaceful ways
given the military capacity to get a better deal. that failed. what - this population doesn't have tools, other than inviting foreigners with which to pressure the government. you have the war going on in syria, and a population that wants to do more violence and use it as a base against the rest of the iraq. you can invite them in, allow it government. >> it's a bargaining process. >> could it be more than that, could it be a serious regional issue beyond iraq, because the city is taken by the islamic state of iraq and syria, as we said in anbar, and that borders on syria, the group is a powerful player, how big a problem can it be? >> i don't think it's much of one. you have to ask what does it
mean for the cities to be taken and overrun. these are places where the iraqi government had little presence, little enduring capacity and was thin on the ground. for the cities to be taken and overrun, what does that mean. in most cases it means relatively small central government gary sons were over run or left. they can go on the web issuing press releases. as soon as the local political organizations that are deep and enduring and survive the war, as soon as leaders of those organizations make a decision that these people are not useful, they'll be evicted as quickly as 2006/2007. >> if it's bloody and you have a serious battle, a journalist said there was one cemetery, there were four after.
if this gets uglier than it is, civilians were killed and injured by the hundreds, they could have eight cemeteries. >> it's undoubtedly a tragic situation for the people of fallujah and iraq, and other parts of iraq, where they suffer from the terrors enabled by the organizations operating in the area. that is different to saying this is a threat to the fundament at stability in iraq. i don't see how it makes the situation worse than it is. >> civilians are fleeing the area. shapro. >> coming up, america's war on poverty turns 50 on wednesday. so, are we winning. >> and news on what is called hillary clinton's shadow campaign. why do some of her advisors not
want her to run. gianna tobani is tracking top stories. >> china destroyed $12 million of a valuable material. the u.s. did too. we tell you why, and what is it. what do you think? join the conversation. >> an exclusive "america tonight" investigative series >> we traveled here to japan to find out what's really happening at fukushima daiich >> three years after the nucular disaster, the hidden truth about the ongoing cleanup efforts and how the fallout could effect
>> wednesday marks the 50th anniversary of president lyndon johnson, declaring war on poverty in america, and the argument over whether we won or lost the war rages on. >> 50 years ago president lyndon johnson declared a big government war on poverty. sips then. the american tax payer spent trillions to lift people out of poverty. today, tens of millions of americans live beneath the poverty line. >> liberals say the programs have been a success, keeping tens of millions of americans out of poverty. >> derek kitchen from cato institute joins me, and melissa boteach, from the half in ten, which seeks to cut poverty in 10 years, and is a director at the center for american progress.
thank you for being with us. melissa, senator marco rubio's argument is straight forward. trillions later there's still poverty, therefore the war on poverty fail. >> if you use the poverty measure taking the programs into act, a study shows it's untrue. if you count the programs, 26% in 1967, and today it's down to 16% much those programs made a difference in lifting millions out of poverty, that's not to say we should pat ourselves on the back and declare the war is over, but we have to build on what is working and make investments to lift more families into the middle class. >> dan, you can take the other side. tens of millions feared to live in poverty before the great success. >> i don't think so. you can take a trillion dollars
and redistribute it and give people wealth in the short run, but all you do is trap them in poverty if you create entitlement, turning americans into greeks, italians, spaniards and french. what we are doing spiritual ain terms of self-reliance, achievement, self-esteem, that's the real damage, and that's not counting the fiscal burden of the government spending, taxes to support it and the fact that there's a lot of evidence that we had a rapidly falling poverty rate before the war on poverty began, and it flat lined if you look at the statistics, maybe with melissa's numbers, there has been a bit of improvement. people. >> i want to getto melissa on that, but as she mentioned the numbers and lyndon johnson declared the war on poverty, it
dropped by 43%, a faster rate than before johnson did that. the 26 to 16% number, others say it was 19 to 15% today. it seems to show this helped a lot of people. >> i can't comment on the numbers that melissa pulled out. they sound encouraging the government statistics show more are in poverty today than before. the poverty rate was coming down. then in the mid '60s, it stopped coming down. the improvement stop exactly at the time the government, the federal government and washington got massively involved which suggests that maybe we should learn a lesson from bill clinton, and the successful welfare reform. the program was kicked back to the states and we got better
all. >> as dan is saying you could argue that the economy would have improved a lot of poor americans. if it's that four percentage point drop, the number used when talking about the war on poverty, that that is virtually decades. >> the official poverty rates don't take into account poverty achievements put in place. the enactment of nutrition assistance. spreading that - it severely improved the levels of malnutrition. we had third-world style hunger. because we enacted medicaid we saw a drop in infant mortality. i think when we talk about measuring progress we have to take a comprehensive look over the past 50 years. it's important that we acknowledge that we have
more to do. it's not the war on poverty that failed. we have seen an explosion of income, commonwealthy and low-wage work. the safety net is working overtime to overcomment for an economy not working for many people. moving forward, we have to not cut the programs. we have to fixture economy so it's producing living wage jobs. >> the numbers also show that americans who work are only - fewer than 3% are below the poverty line. doesn't the issue seem the issue is job creation? >> it's a big part of it. it's also low wages. the 3% number may be americans that work full tv time, year around. if you look at americans working not full time or all around because they can't get the hours or the time they need across the
i can't remember. you see closer to 10% of americans. poverty levels are low. we talk about 23,000 a year for a family of four. there are millions of working americans scraping to get by. oftentimes they are worse off as they are not able to access some of the programs. >> marco rubio, the senators, had this to say in his message. >> instead of continuing to borrow and spend trillions on government programs that don't work. we need a real agenda helping people to acquire the skills they need to lift them out of poverty. is he right. doesn't social security, as one example, prove some social programs work. 39% of seniors lived in poverty a few years before lyndon johnson expanded benefits. today 9% do.
>> if you redistribute hundreds of billions, trillions, you can lift people, the income level up. the question is what is the cost to the economy, peep's self-reliance and independence. there are three things that will keep anyone out of poverty, finish high school, get a job. if you do those three things, the poverty rate will be small. a lot of anti-poverty programs encourage the wrong kinds of behaviours. this is what i talking about, the risks that the programs are trapping people in intergenerational poverty and dependence, we have better numbers. >> a lot to talk about. but we are running out of time. thank you both for joining us. >> turning to the run-up to the 2016 elections, the hillary clinton camp looks to be
preparing the ground work for a presidential campaign. not only did the 2008 campaign organization release its email list to prohill larry, a claim has to be settled between that group and another. some of the aidese melt over the summer to auto -- met over the summer to outline a campaign. is the former secretary of state gearing up for a campaign. >> we bring in gloouk , offering poll sticks for politico.com. >> i'll start with the meeting over the summer that politico.com broke the news about, meeting with dewey square group, she had aids with her to discuss filing dates and primary strategy. a lot has been made. is this the sort of thing that
any candidate might have to have even if it is four years before the election. >> it was an interesting meeting to learn about. it's the case that the campaign season seems to begin earlier and earlier with every cycle. she's indicated that this is a year she's starting seriously, about the possibility of exploring a presidential run. that meeting encapsulated what the ground work might look like or the numbers, should she choose to take the next steps. >> at this point, and the article talks about this, it seems like democrats are united behind her. well, it's clear that there is a
lot of enthusiasm on the democratic side about the prospect of, you know, the first female president, hillary clinton was certainly popular as she left her position as secretary of state. there's a lot of excitement about her and groups like ready for hillary, and others are seeking to capitalize on the energy and channel it in a way that would be productive, should she rup. there's talk about the possibility of other democratic challenges looking into a well. >> most of those have said, "no way, and the speculation is that, you know, if they get in, that hillary, at this point. she's a strong candidate that most democrats are united behind her candidacy, but the article brings up that while democrats
in general may be behind her, there's a division in the inner circle as to whether she will run or not and whether she should run or not. >> sure. there's a number of influential voices. who seem is to be weighing in on the debate. all sides. chelsea clinton, her doubter will be an important voice and she does not want her mum rushed into making a decision of this magnitude. at the same time there's a lot of people who have been with the secretary for decades and want to make they are there with her for whatever decisions she makes. some are enthusiastic, others cautious about embarking on a campaign because in this day and anal it's crueling, dna changing, as the phrase goes, and
you want to make all that is in place before taking that job. >> there's an exhaustive political argument arguing that chelsea will be the main voice this her decision. do you think that's the case. >> chelsea has been an important influence since her time running for senate. over the last several years, she's increased her role in the clinton foundation, a key player there. israeli thought to be one of the most influential voices. she made clear it's a big decision, and no one is ex-othering undue pressure. it will be interesting to keep an eye op what chelsea's public statements are of course as what hillary clinton decides to do and say publicly.
there's a lot of scrutiny about her public appearances, in 2013 she gave speeches with a lot of media tapes. we can expect that to kick off. >> and the health scare she had a year ago. a lot between now and 2016. appreciate you joining us to talk about this argument. >> time so see what is trending. >> china took a stand against elephant protests by destroying tuskses. john scanlon from international trade in endangered species, explains why it is critical. >> this provide an opportunity for china to show solidarity to bring to an end elephant ivory
and is having a negative effect on local people and their lively headlines. >> not everyone praised the view, including some of you: a lot of heated opinions. read more on the website. >> china's move followed that of the u.s. >> let's hope they figure out animal. >> ahead - does anxiety help you succeed. we talk to someone who suffered from it and succeeded with it.
after all he's suffered in the war, he's killed in a car crash. with? >> you're letting yourself be defeated my lady. someone has to say it. >> when your only child dies, you are not a mother any more. you're not anything really. >> she is broken and bruised. it is our job to wrap her up and keep her safe from the world. >> no, robert, it is our job to bring her back to the world. >> the emmy-award-winning british season shows of upstairs, downstairs dynamic between the upper classes and servants. how close is it it to reality. lucy lethbridge is the author of "servants - downstairs britain", how close is "downtown abbey" to real life. let's start with the servants. in a state like "downtown abbey," there would have been a lot more servants.
>> i think for the purposes of drama it's necessary to cut the cast otherwise we'd be confused. there would be eight how's maids, and there would be far more younger servants learning on the job. i think it's necessary to keep the narrative, that you keep the number down a bit. >> is the relationship between the masters and the servants accurate. i am sure it varied from household to household. there's friendship, and at other times big distance. >> it's characteristic of the mysterious relationship. when the home is the workplace, then all sorts of rather set rules that apply in the contracts if you work in a factory or institution don't apply when you work in someone's home or if you have someone working in your home, and in the
case of those old servanted edwardian households, you have them living with you. that makes everything different. and, of course, that intimacy can be abused or wonderful. at every turn the relationship is dependent on the types of people involved in that particular family. >> in "downtown abbey," you see the real clear hierarchy among the servants. you see the butler, when he stands up everyone else must rise for. there would be many servants in a big household. some of the servants had servants themselves. >> that's right, the upper servants, something we don't have, which would have been the case in a large household is that much younger servants learnt their skills by waiting on the older servants. mrs. mousse and carson the
butler would have had young bells or boys -- young girls or boys learning on the job. the young girl would have taken mrs. hughes her breakfast, rather as daisy the kitchen maid is learning to cook from mrs. patmore. >> "downtown abbey" is a massive hit. why are people fascinated by? >> this is a question i asked myself many times, i don't know the answer. it's not knew to find fascinating this setup. upstairs, downstairs is a big hit. it came out in the early '70s. it makes fabulous drama, the relationship between upstairs and downstairs is one fraught with lots of interesting tensions. and i think it tells us something of our history, a world that seems familiar to us
and completely alien. it's a world in way you can take sides. one feels a great sense of allegiance, i think, particularly for the servants downstairs, and because in many ways, i think especially in "downtown abbey" they exemplify a changing world. you can see the old deferences that they took for granted that they chaff against. that is typical. servants were a major part of the workforce. more than a third of british women employed worked in domestic service. at that point you were either a servant or had servants. >> the famous round tree report on poverty drew the line between the poor and the very poor as being a line at which - which
was marked by people who didn't have servants. the people who didn't have servants were the poor. that wouldn't have been serve aned in the uniformed maid sense, paid domestic help. it may be a child coming in to look after your child while you go off to work. but it was considered - it's the outsourcing of labour, the big divider between poverty and extreme pov erty. >> you have incredible examples of how it takes eight people to serve a class of milk and a biscuit and bring up an example of a british lord who, you know, some of them didn't know how to do the basic things. >> that was an interesting story, the finest brain in
britain, his brilliance and intellectual brilliance were renowned offer the empire. he was a famous - famous for intellect and snobry. he was staying in a country house, waking up, wanting to open the window, but the servants being asleep, he didn't know how to do it. he picked up a log and smashed it. that was one of the things about my research - how lacking in practical skills and inept were some members of the upper classes. it was highlighted by the american heiresses that came over and married in, leaving accounts of how amazed they were by the uselessness of their husbands. how they would ring for a
footman to walk down long cold corridors and nudge the log in the fire, rather than pick up the fire tongs three inches away and do it themselves. it's not that they distained to do it, but it never occurred that they might be able to. >> how much of this exists today? there's a different numbers out there. some say that domestics in britain dropped dramatically after world war ii. others say there's a resurgence. the kind of thing we see, is that something you only see in a buckingham palace now. >> i don't think the world of "downtown abbey" has died. anyone lucky enough to stay in a grand hotel will see something like the oiled wheels of extraordinarily efficient edwardian country house. that will be the last place you find it now.
there's a demand for that kind of old-fashioned servant, the car sons, the o'brien, the ladies maid. they may be called household manager, wardrobe manager. it will be a very, very tiny percentage of the super rich who will employ. if they were minded to do that sort of work, there's money and travel in it. jobs available in russia and china, wherever the rich are. it's jobs that require a great deal of management skill. >> the book is servants, a downstairs history of britain from the 19th century to modern times", lucy lethbridge, thank you for joining us. the show may be over but the conversation substance on our google+
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