tv Third Rail Al Jazeera August 31, 2015 4:00pm-5:01pm EDT
tonight studies claim there is an em december i can of assaults on american campuses after a push by the federal government to fix that. schools have responded. more women are coming forward. more men are being punished but are students accused of sexual assault being treated fairly. should people in the u.s. illegally be appoint today government positions? and while there is a real wage gap between men and women it's not as big as many people believe. are women's groups and the white
house doing women a disservice by inflating its size? i am ali velshi in for immaterial began garda. this. ♪ ♪ i was raped by a classmate idorm provided to knee. >> it's a national epidemic. >> changing proceeds made it much more likely that innocent people would be convicted. >> the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. >> there is no question there is a tremendous problem with respect to sexual assaults on campuses. >> one in five women are college am campuses has been sexually assaulted. >> nobody was helping me. i was completely on my own . >> could the accused have more to lose. >> the procedure works under the assumption that the accused is guilty and needs to prove his innocence . >> these innocent people this their lives destroyed. >> i had dark days. >> this young man cannot have on
his permanent record sexually assaulting women when he didn't do? >> tonight we have a former prosecutors who is now an independent campus sexual assault investigators. and andrew miltonberg. an attorney who has represented male college students accused of sexual assault . thank you so much for joining us. you saw that setup, andrew, are students accused of sexual assault on campus being treated fairly? >> absolutely not. at no step of the process are young men, students accused of sexual assault on campus being treated fairly. >> i think people that don't know the background to this would say, in fact, it's been the other way. that victims accusers don't get treated fairly. what has happened in your opinion? >> i think the process all along was one that was broken and remains broken and there has been over correction, campus sexual assault is a serious problem, one that appears to be a fairly pervasive and at the
same time, there is no remedy, there is no proper protocol in place for young men who are accused of sexual assault. >> let me ask you, do you think students accused of sexual assault on campuses today are being treated fairly? >> i can't answer what is happening all over the country my focus is massachusetts. the standard there put out are fair and i think that to the extent there is any unfairness in how cases are actually handled it's in the immaterial police men station either policy, failures or in the actual execution of an investigate investigation at colleges. >> we'll talk about execution because you are involved in that. >> but she makes an interesting point, there is a lack of uniformity. i have seen instances although rare, where i felt confident that the school throughout the
investigative process and the hearing process treated all of the parties fairly and responsibly . >> i than what happened over the laugh few years between the white house and the o.c.r. there has been an stem to respond to victim's rights group groups ans been at the cost rights of accused. >> let's talk about what you are discussing. the o.c.r. is the office of civil rights, we talk about title 9, moment people little it's associated with sports. in 2011 the department of education sent a letter to colleges. and they basically prescribed, i guess in an effort to achieve some of the uniformity that you are talking about. they described how colleges that received federal funding which is almost all of them are to conduct investigations in to ledged sexual assault on campus in the opinion of some lowered the bar from the standard being clear and con vining proof to a preponderance of the evidence. 50% likelihood that at used
committed the offense which they are accused of. is that fair? >> i think that is fair. the preponderance's standards has been described by many as 50% plus a feather. and it essentially shifts the burden to the accused to prove their innocence as opposed to being -- having guilt or responsibility proven as against them. and that's subtle and significant in these cases. >> let's talk about what you have to do and how the system has changed . >> reporter: or what andrew might say are some of the criticisms of system. it's an investigate or that herbers the process on behalf of the school. some em poo are employed by the score or like you are hired. the standard of evidence has changed the accused cannot cross-examine witnesses they can submit questions some someone like you can choose to answer. do these things lower the bar
such that the accused doesn't get a fair hearing? >> i don't think so at all. in fact, i think that for both students it's actually a more fair process than they would get in a courtroom. honestly the courtroom san intimidating place with lots of strangers and for both sides that makes for not the most perfect circumstances, when do you an internal investigation at a school. each person seen privately it's just of the investigate and the student. maybe they have an adviser with them. as long as it takes to get their story out. is the time that it takes and there is typically follow-up interviews, you would never in a million years get that in a courtroom. that kind of time that kind of attention. the students or loud to tell you who they think i should be talking to. the kind of documents i should be looking at other evidence that's out there. and then i also think of my own, and sometimes i reject some of things that they ask for, but typically i let them say what they want to say and give may the evidence that they want to give flee and then it's my job to sift out what shouldn't be considered what isn't relevant and to boil it down and come to a recommendation.
>> you know, jun djuna is descrg a process that i think works well. unfortunately, it's been the anomaly in my experiences. >> you tends of last year you told npr that calling it a witch hunt is do dramatic. but you said that you would tell a group of young men right now, whoa is to you if someone makes an allegation against you because of these department of education changes. >> and i stand by that. i have a son and a daughter both of whom will be going to college in the next year. and i am worried about my daughter being in a situation where she doesn't feel able to come forward and safe in making allegations or making a report that someone has done something nonconsensual to her. but i worry about my son equally that were he to be in almost any school that i have dealt with with the exception of perhaps djuna's investigation, that he would be in serious amount of
trouble, notwithstanding the truth. >> djuna, what is your response to those who say the system has over corrected? >> i really don't think that it has. you know, to the extent that, as we were talking about before, sometimes there certainly can be errors, you know, sometimes when i hear things like investigative body wouldn't accept any social media they just have a blanket rule forbidding any social media rip by either party before or after the events. obviously that's going to contain statements of both sides, that's wrong. you have to let those things in. but i think that for the most part the schools that i work with have worked very, very hard to make policies and they tweak them every summer that are fair, i think some of the variations that you see are similar to the ones that we see state to state. private schools are allowed, just like workplaces are allowed to make their own little cultural communities and set the standards that they want to set. and students are allowed -- let me just finish. and male students and female
students get trained every single september about what does consent mean on our campus, what is sexual misconduct. and students are -- this is part of growing up. is learning what those policies say and learning how to abide by them. i hear students over and over again say, oh, i wasn't really listening at the training. i don't really know what that means. you know what, it's your responsibility to know when you walk in that door. >> and that sounds wonderful on a macro level. but when there are young people who have nonnot bee not been wae on a friday night that are not supervised and have coming assumed alcohol all bets are off at what they listened to or did not listen to at a meeting a month before. i am seeing cases all in a gray area and i have to tell you after looking at dozens and dozens of these there is not one that comes me to me and i look at and i say clearly i understand what happens.
it is a he said, she said, there are a lot of moving parts and the problems start at the investigative level because the investigator in most cases that i have dealt with, act as a gatekeeper. information doesn't get past that investigator unless that investigator wants it to. >> djuna, you are the investigator. while you do not admit to being the judge and jury, you have said that in almost all the cases that you know of where you have made a recommendation to a panel or an adjudicator they have gone with it. so you have a lot of power. >> andrew made a good point about sort of development stages of people. i do think that's important. and the people who hear these cases have to have an understanding of how kids work. because even though they are legally adults they are still young people. and you have to be in their heads about how they would think about things for both sides. for both the accused student and the accusing student. >> what about the alcohol issue? how many of the cases you have dealt with involve alcohol as a determinate? >> a lot do.
but there are a lot that don't. i have had plenty of cases in which alcohol plays no role whatsoever. you know, and the only ways its relevant is the person who is the accusing student was that person incapacitated and i don't just mean drunk, i mean practically passed out so they are unable to give real consents. and for the accused student, alcohol really dint play much of a role. >> excuse me for one second, i have a problem with that. because alcohol blurs everybody's ideas of what's going on at any given moment. and i have never situations where, yes became no after yes was yes for a while. but when yes becomes no in the middle of some interaction, the area is now indelibly gray and to imprint upon the future of a young man an expulsion from a school because of a yes subtly
or not so subtly become a no in the middle of an event that might being fueled by alcohol -- >> do you reject that some people talk about affirmative -- that you are going to have to say yes. you have to hear yes, you gotta know yes at various points in the same course of events. >> i think it's well intentioned and completely impractical and does not take in account -- >> you are shaking your head -- >> it does not take in to account the reality of human sexuality and interaction. >> djuna. >> most of the time when somebody starts out with no. sometimes no becomes yes but it's usually they started out with no and they really want to stay with no but another person has convinced them or persuaded them or pressured them in to the yes. then they get the literal yes but in the other person's head maybe it's not so much of a yes. >> sometimes the next morning it >> right. based on what the evidence is, you can't -- if a person actually did say yes, it's hard to say it's hard to look at that situation -- >> can you get clarity on that? is that difficult for you? >> no, not typically.
that comes back to another comment andrew made about he said she said. that's other like nail on his a chalkboard nearly i hate when people use that phrase, most cases are not he said she said. it's true there are not video cameras, because most people don't have sex in public in front of witnesses but there is often plenty other information that you can look to. >> imagine on a second. coming up we'll talk to i rape survivor who says the system failed her. >> i don't think this person said something out of malice i think it was because she was uneducated and didn't understand that she was blaming the victim. >> later in our panel, i understand why someone would want to come to this country and skip ahead of the line but that doesn't mean it's right. >> not everybody is able to follow those rules to pay those fees to get those -- >> and in field notes a new law that brings jamaica in line with an image it's tried to reject. >> a lot of people are hopeful it's going to bring tourists and this business boom but there is concern for people that have
been growing there all along. >> in order to save my children, i had to try to save everyone else's. >> chicago mothers, fed up and fighting back. >> what we've essentially done is created an outdoor community center. >> changing the city one block at a time. >> i'm out here to encourage them, to tell them there's a better way.
♪ ♪ every school in each of the 50 states is plague the with sexual violence. >> the stories came by the dozens. >> amy clark went to an administrate tore report that she had been raped near campus. >> and he hooked at me and she's like rape is like the fall. if you were the quarterback looking back on monday morning, you know, what would you have
done differently and nba that situation, annie? ♪ ♪ >> joining us now is annie clark, she was sexually assaulted as a students at the university of north carolina, she's the cofounder i've group ending rape on campus. as many times as i hear that, i cannot believe it. that they gave you a football metaphor. >> yes, that's what happened. and that's actually not uncommon. not that specific metaphor, that victims are blamed when they go forward. i actually don't think this person said something out of mall i.i think it was just because she was uneducated and didn't understand that she was blaming the victim. >> you travel around the country as part of your work. are things better or the same was when you were in college? >> i think they are starting to. i think the very fact that we are able to have this conversation is a step in the right directs, i do agree with both of you what you said earlier there is not uniformity armed the country. policies are different, states, even schools within the same state. so we are moving in the right directs, but it's happening pretty slowly. >> i want to get to something andrew, with respect to these more than 50 men who you have represented.
i assume you have said that they are all falsely accused. you believe that these were the outliers, these are not the young men who do commit sexual sexual assault on campuses. that happens. >> i don't think they have all been falsely accused. i think there are situations where you can have one party's perception very different from the other party. and i don't think they are all falsely accused. but i think that the system that's in place failed them in each of those cases. and in most cases, it's hard to come to a definitive conclusion about what occurred in those few moments that are being complained of. >> annie how does that fuzziness fit in with the work that you do? >> i don't think most cases are fuzz y. i agree the he said she said. i can't stand that. rape is clear. we are not talking about a blurred lines myth. i agree the system is broken and we do need to improve it for all involve. you
have 2 to 8% of sexual assault cases are considered false reports and within that are people that retract because the system is scary. and according to the f.b.i. that's the same number as any other crime. >> there are a couple of bills in congress that say this has to go to the police first or within 330 days, you are not making tht argument. your daughter is going college and you have said that you would like to know if something happens to her, she is protected by the college environment. >> absolutely. >> reporter: you don't think the answer is get this out of the hands of colleges. >> i don't necessarily think the police or the law enforcement is equipped to act as quickly on gray area he said -- >> what do you mean gray area? >> you know, a -- an interaction. >> complex. >> complex or a very factually intention interaction that started out consensual and somewhere along the way someone thought was no longer con sean.
>> an interaction with start out conceptually, just because i want to kiss somebody doesn't mean i want to have sex with him and you can con tract consents under the la law at any time if they continue to engage in sexual we haven your that is assault. >> it's fantasy land, it's a neat idea. very hard to get done. >> i don't understand what is so complicated about asking would you like to have sex and that person saying yes. >> what happens if we have a couple that's dating, i have had a case -- a number of cases like this, where somewhere within the sexual intimate interaction yese no. but it wasn't really a clear no. and then the night was spent cuddling and kissing and having dinner thereafter. and then six months later someone says, you know, i realized that i was raped that night. now, that's not to say that isn't their perception. but as a lawyer, it's very hard
for me to understand how to disentangle that interaction. >> djuna. >> i think you can. you often can. maybe it's what you say and it really turned in to a consensual thing or maybe the day after the actual -- the incidents actually owe curled she's telling all her friends she was raped last night, she's going to get counseling, she's going to get medical care. the guy gets some text messages from her saying i don't like what happened last night. there is always more to look for. but i wanted to come back to a couple of things. affirmative consents. assuming that most people in the country are decent human beings the day after you have sex with somebody do you really want to find out that the person that you had sex with didn't really like it? so it's in your best interest in a billion different ways to make sure. >> i think what separates us on this front is very small. in other words, i think we all agree that we just have to become evolved human beings even in sexual relations. but annie, this still talks about these thing that were not clear are sexual assault. you have taken a very different
position. you have actually done work on a film, that asserts that campus sexual assaults are not just these hookups that have gone bad. they are calculated, premeditated crimes. you talk about predators. tell me where this fits in to this discussion. >> there is a lot of research that shows that you have serial predators on campus who assault multiple women and also men. so we have talked about a lot of well, but we also need to recognize not only men are sometimes maybe falsely accused as you say, but also can be have victims as women. >> reporter: you said that his clients are falsely accused. i know you don't know who they are. >> i don't know their cases, i do not know who they are. >> but you believe that happens? >> i believe there migh might ba case somewhere out there where somebody might have been falsely accused but the data suggests that number is very, very small. >> in talking to dozens and dozens of students who have been accused overtime, you know, there is a small -- there is a small category who really seem to be predators and of course, i
am talking only anecdotally, i am not academic, over the cases that i have seen there is a small category who really are predators and go from one person to the next. there is a much larger category of those who are found responsible whole were just uninformed, stupid, made mistakes. grew up with wrong ideas about women of i always and students, one general question. tell me all the way in which she demonstrated consents, verbal, nonverbal and i had student sit there and say she didn't say no. that's as good as they can get. >> that is a standard which is used on for a lot of university students. >> but -- >> in fact, when i was in university the standard was no means no. >> right. and now -- the flip of yes means yes actually i think is so fascinating because what it does is take out the presumption that all sex is consensual. because if you keep that presumption, then what it means is that the default -- if men
are gem the initiators of sex, then it means that men get sex whenever they want that's the logical progression of that. when you change it to affirmative concept it makes everybody on the same playing field. >> does your work indicate that men are usually the initiators of the sects that goes awry and end up in your office? >> yes. i mean, yes. >> and someone should sit with me and see the files and the texts and e-mailses and instagram that his go back and forth . culturally there is a very sexually charged at plus near. >> that's true. >> one that is very for tone me. >> anymore so than when we were in college. >> incredibly more so. i am not sure i recognize the universe as it exes exists on college campuses now. there is a really very free wheeling aggressive sexual culture, men and women. >> let me ask you, something, ann i if we are at a party in
college and there is a punch bowl with drinks and everybody is drinking out of it. are the predators you talking about lurking in the shadows or people that go to the parties because i have heard that too, they pray on the fact that they find a young woman or man who is putting sure self or himself in a situation of vulnerability. >> first of all. if you are going a party you shouldn't expect to be assault. put herb yourself in a position of vulnerability. you have to reframe that. 80 to 90% of sexual assault predators aura say leapts are people that we know, that's what makes this issue so scary and sometimes hard to talk b it's not that guy lurking in the bushes. sometimes it is. but it's that person that is sitting next to you in chemistry class. somebody that's in your dorm. and i think you both make a really good point when you talk about it's so confusing. we need to talk about this in elementary school at aja appropriate levels. and starting to talk about consent and what it means in high schools and middle schools as women. >> you held me to account when i mentioned when i used the term putting yourself in a position
of vulnerability. the title 9 requirements from the department of education's office of civil rights mandate that the dangers of not understanding the influence of alcohol cannot be included in a school's efforts against sexual assault. is that correct from a policy perspective? i am separating the idea that you hold somebody in any way responsible for their drinking habits or what happened to them or what they drank. but from a policy perspective, should we not be included alcohol in the discussion the vulnerability of people to sexual assault. >> i think we can have that conversation and say alcohol is the number one date rape drug and people do use alcohol as a tool if there is a punch bowl bo el boyle to get people drunk sometimes it's includes styles it's alcohol. it's fine to have the safety conversation, as long as we are saying it's not your fault -- it's your fault because you were drinking. >> very good distinction. >> i see -- [speaking at the same time] >> i see alcohol as a
significant factor in almost everything that's coming in to my offer office. and i don't know how you manage that on a college campus where you have people who are free of their parents and other restraints for the first time. >> i think if you can't control yourself from assaulting somebody, you shouldn't get drunk. if that's your reasoning. >> but what if now the one getting drunk. what if you are preying on somebody that got drunk. >> then you are preying on someone. >> you are taking advantage of the fact that somebody is too drunk. >> and you don't think the federal regulations should at all deal with alcohol?? because they don't. at the moment they development. granel college president was the former agoing director of the national institute on alcohol abuse and he wrote it's unusual that prevention strategies do not use the word alcohol. >> and discuss me, djuna. it's half an answer to not include the reality that alcohol
plays a role on campus seven nights a week. >> but the only way -- the only place it really has a place is in the discussion of incapacity to consent. that's the only place. >> it doesn't dull the ability to consent a little bit? >> no, it does. >> it does in every level of life. i can't drive after having more than a certain number of drinks. >> that's what i am talking about. one person is i i initiating see other person is receiving it for the lack of the better word the one receiving it has to consents the initiator consents. >> but you can be impaired well before you are incapacitated. >> in the criminal justice system color only is a defense to a crime when it's ray specific intent crime. like assault with intent to murder. then if you have alcohol and you can have diminished capacity. in all other crimes, including rape. being dunk when you are commit a rape is not a defense. >> i am going get the last word to annie. there was -- i am sure you have seen in many times in the wake the rolling stone magazine retracting its story the university michigan -- at the
university of the university of virginia. the column lift wrote we should believe as a matter of default what an accuser says ultimately the cost of wrongly disbelieving the survivor far outweigh the costs of calling someone a rapist? your thoughts? >> i think she's absolutely correct. when you have more survivors dropping out of school than you have people found responsible getting expelled, i think there is a serious problem. >> annie, thank you very much for your time. djuna perkins, and andrew miltonberg, we appreciate you all being here. >> thank you. >> the "third rail" pam is next. ♪ more women are the bread whippers and they are not earning as much. [speaking at the same time] >> i thought it was a good thing. >> let my finish my point. it's not a myth it is math. >> women are not taught to ask for what they deserve .
but is the tech sector harming u.s. workers. back to this week's show we are switching from sexual assault to the roles that schools can play in educating their students about rape. a d.c. based jumpist who has written for several one indications. a senior fellow at the manhattan institute and a senior policy advice tore rick perry's 2016 presidential campaign. and lo letetia is a former chairwoman of the staten island republican party. welcome to all of you. los angeles tire a, a at that letetia a canadian study found female college students were half as likely to get raped if they went through a rape education and prevention course as those that had not did you think so. training has led to changes in attitudes among men coming off the great debate we had this about. should the federal government or colleges be looking at mandatory rape prevention courses? >> i think, no.
i think that education about sex is -- it belongings with the family. , it belongs with the parents. there is a big difference between rape. because rape say violent crime. it's a crime of control. what i think we are talking about or what we are seeing in the colleges is a misunderstanding about sect. because they are innocent and they are young and they haven't been exposed to it. so i don't think that we should be focusing our college campus on his sexual activity. it just brings too much attention to it. we should be going to college to be educated. not specifically to party and to have these social situations. >> what do you think? >> i absolutely disagree. i think colleges have a huge role in responsibility in curbing and pretty much eliminating the rape pandemic that is going on in this country right now. and colleges, it's shown that colleges hardly ever expel into rape
. they are harder cheating. there is something called rape culture. what is rape culture? it's when we normalize men's sexual violence and blame other factors for it. women were asking for it. women were drinking too much. fraternity, alcohol, we need to understand why men are raining and why they feel like they can get way with? >> when you work for a major corporation in america you go through various levels of training, including sexual harass think in the workplace, why not colleges? >> i think there is nothing wrong with colleges trying to experiment to see if they can do a better job of engaging in rape prevention, i would be leary of a federal mandate saying you must train nerve this way, everyone college should do it this way, we should leave room for colleges to learn from each other and improve so that they can figure out what is the best way to combat the problems culturally that lead people to feel that rape is open table. >> there is something that colleges can do right now. if i was a predator on campus i
would think, hey, they never believe the women anyway. negotiate going to expel me. less than 5% of sexual assault cases are even reported and colleges don't expel for rape. >> letecia this sounds like a good argument for having some degree of training. >> what you said predators on campus. when somebody is a rapist it's a bid difference than a social situation and people of drinking -- >> that gives the suggestion that women are asking for it. >> i will tell you the ca made yep study involved four three hours session of 12 hours, they focused on recognizing danger, preventing -- resisting pressure to have sex and physical self-defense. so they are looking at a very broad definition of rape including one that probably goes beyond what you would think is rape in the to nonconsensual sexual assault crime. >> when we get in to that it's not rape anymore it's a sexual act. >> would you agree that that's. >> when does in not become rape anymore? no means no.
>> it's if not in ainge, rape is -- if it's not anger rape say violents crime i would it's not for sex. >> it's about power. >> a rapist tends to be predatory. what we are seeing here is not a bunch -- not people who are abusing women regularly cam puts -- >> that's not necessarily true there is something called intimate partner violence. >> i on him it not sure the goal is not to train predators not to be predators it seems to be about training potential victims. >> we need to stop acting like rape is women's responsibility of notices our responsibility to not get raped. men need to get this message in their head to not rape. >> i don't think anybody -- >> i totally disagree with that. i don't think anybody disagrees that the rapists are the ones that are responsible for rape. a lot of times there is a problem with campuses not wanting their reputation staying. >> -- stained. >> sure. >> both in terms of perhaps ignoring serious incidents of violence, but also in terms of
over reacting and throwing people out when they are falsely accused. a lot of this is done to preserve the university's reputation rather than to redress injustice to the victim or the accused. >> which goes back to may point the universities have a really huge role. they need to set a clear message. the fact that there is less than 5% of prosecution actually being followed through and reporting by the victims what does that mean? they feel like they will not get justice. >> i think that the universities have a mandate to educate and they should h educate broadly bt not about sex. i am sorry right now with the focus so much on sex on campus that's all that t seems we have time for. >> let's shift gears now, law makers in southern california just blasted open a whole new front in the immigration debate. >> the city of huntington park, california is making history by appointing -- >> two undocumented immigrants to city commissions. >> they can legally serve as long as they are not paid. >> we live in in community, we are part of society. >> we need to make sure that we bring everyone together to the
table. >> those positions could have been did i have been to an american. >> we the people implies we the citizens not we the illegal aliens. >> remarkable story. huntington park is 97% his hispanic latina 15% undocumented. these two young men one is 21, 1229 they are both illegally in the united states. they showed a desire and ability to serve for positions that the city was having trouble filling. they are not being paid in line with federal law. these are not highly paid. they are things where you did get 75 bucks. should people in the united states be allowed to physical a government position? i would say no. if you are going to be in a position of power over citizens of the united states they should be filled by citizens of the united states or legal residents that's true in most countries of world. >> i illegal is illegal.
we can't have levels of illegal. we should not be using tax dollars being generated by citizens who are law abiding of this country to, you know, pay their salaries. >> they are not being paid. one thing the city is doing is not paying them. no stipend they are volunteers. >> so they walk in and they are volunteering and should be arrested and taken to task. >> the mayor has commented that they are not going anywhere. 15% of the population. so why not engage them? >> you know what, then we have to talk about immigration reform across the board in america. and when we get that done, and we have a policy, we need to follow the policy. >> so this is an interesting study because it's one where they couldn't get people to do this civic duty. >> right. >> exempt the undocumented -- >> you the problem is, the rule of law really matters. this goesal why the illegal immigration issue arouses so much passion even among legal immaterial gramentsz. my parents are legal immigrants and there are lots of people
that want to come here lil'ly but can't because the illegal immigration problem is so significant in the country and stymies the ability of congress to engage in construction five and prudent reforms and when particular -- >> to make it clear, the instinct would be to say they are taking government policy positions and getting paid for it in lou of or, you no he, preventing citizens from doing so, but they are not. they couldn't fill the positions they are not getting paid. >> you have to remember -- [speaking at the same time] >> to be a legal immigrant you have to engage in illegal activity every weir week. you have to forge i.d. papers to get jobs, you have to misrepresents your background to do all sorts of tasks which are crimes. >> we have to stop dehumanizing these people. >> it's not about demon eyeing people. look, i understand why someone would want to come no to this country and skip affidavit line of all the other people that want to come here doesn't mean it's right or fair. >> but not everybody has the chance. [speaking at the same time]. >> people from india can't cross
the board tore united states but people from mexican can. >> why should anybody obey any law that we are making here if, you know, we are going to turn a blinds eye to an illegal immigrant. [speaking at the same time] >> i am not sure that's true. i don't -- i don't go through a red light because i think that the law is not prosecuting every undocument the immigrant. i still top stop at red lights. i don't know that that's our behavior. >> we septic et cetera for red light cameras when nobody is looking and there is nobody being armed. we accept that. but we are going to say, oh, okay, you are illegal but you can stay here, you can serve, you can serve in government. i mean, i am sorry, nobody -- >> can i tell you something. >> -- nobody wanted to serve in those positioning they should think about why. >> america is a nation of laws, we get that. but we are also a nation of immigrants. people are still immigrating here. >> legal immigrants. >> some, some are refugees. some game in illegally. >> refugees can apply for asylum.
>> can i just tell my story really quick. i became an accidental immigrant here. i never wanted to immigrate here. i came here to attend u.v.a. the went from a student visa to an h1b visa i met my husband and got married. last year i became an american now my daughter is an american, i did everything through the rules. and it was great. and i really like that. i like to follow the rules. >> why are you not troubled by people who don't? >> my issue is not everybody is able to follow those rules. >> that's ridiculous. >> that's ridiculous. >> isn't that true. [speaking at the same time] >> you can't follow the rules. >> a poor mexican or ecuadorian or colombian and just to get to the front the line. >> that's ridiculous. people can follow the rules they choose not to because they find an advantage in completing and breaking the rules. >> there is no advantage. [speaking at the same time] >> we have to speak the truth. the truth is -- >> i am speaking the truth. >> the people are seeking advantage by violating and bypassing the rules. >> that's right. >> you can sim thighs with them and say that they should violate the rules, you can say the rule is wrong but the fact that they
are violating the rules and cheating -- >> does your ability to sympathize with them change your view about two guys that want to be good civic participants,. >> i think he can never take a whole category of people say and they are good and bad there are good and bad in any community or category but that doesn't mean they weren't slighting the law we should have an immigration system that reports our border. >> the idea that you are an immigrant does that overcome any. [speaking at the same time] >> that's not the question. >> you have to start with the fact that you are disrespecting the rulings of this country. you are disrespecting every legal immigrant who came to this country to better it. >> it's one thing it say you ran a red light. but it's another thing to i sacks well, we shouldn't have red lights and so, of course, we should have laws. >> i don't know that every immigrant that comes across illegally says there must be no rules. [speaking at the same time] >> as i guessed we are not sort this is matter out.
i bet you we'll get agreement on gender equality. it's a persistent wedge issue but is a major portion of the argument real? >> is women's -- it is women's equality day. >> it's encouraging to see the progress but shouldn't forget what's left to do. >> we all want equal pay for equal work for women. >> no matter how many times this wage gap claim is decisively refuted it always comes back. >> the actual pay gap is small they were the 77 cents to every dollar that the white house claims it to be. >> can we talk about things in will he alt and not something based upon a bunk stud. >> i all right, so our reporting has shown that the wage gap number that is sited by the white house in many groups of 77 cents to a dollar maybe not be where it is, when you take in to account all of nine things that people will tell you to take in to account. decisions that are made in term of education and maternity leave and things like that. but there is a wage gap i challenge anybody to tell me it doesn't exist all all. even if there is a little one
it's 2015 and we probably shouldn't have one. but does the white house, do women's groups letecia, perform a disservice by putting the stark number out there that may not be true? >> yes. they absolutely do. listen if there is a gap in -- a wage gap i think it's more because we don't train women to ask for pay perhaps rat to their worthy little that mothers need to understand that in 2015, their daughters can be anything that they want to be. and they should encourage that. >> in 2015 they won't get paid for being anything they want to be at the same level. >> i challenge that. >> we know that that is true. >> i don't think it's because men are -- are in a group saying we can't -- >> you will concede that for work of equal value women don't always get paid the same amount of money. >> and that i believe is on a woman. she has to ask for the salary that she believes is due her. >> a lot six companies we researched, women didn't know this. they would be -- they would start at the same level.
same education, two, three years in they would be earning less than men around them. and they didn't know. in one particular case until somebody started dating someone and married them. graham waiting from the same school and same education they didn't realize thi there was a y gap. when you say they have to ask. how do they ask if they don't know. >> some of the research shows that men are -- have much higher self-esteem about what deserve whereas women are less aggressive about demanding the salary. that's something that coaching and cultural changes can achieve. the biggest problem is not the wage gap between men and women it's the wage gap between america and what some t should be growing at economically. so the economy post the recession of 2007 the obama years has disproportionately affected blue collar men so people engageing in manual labor, who are well level low income, those jobs have gone a way or retracted or redacted. that's the biggest problem with the economy.
>> this is an issue of equality. blue collar men were disproportionately hit by recession. blue collar men suffered together. women earn less money than men for the same work. >> we should try to do something about that. >> we should do the fact that more women are breadwinners and not earning as much. >> it's now a bad thing that women are bread winners. >> you didn't let me finish me i points. it's not mirk it's math. the 77 -- myth it's math. it varies a cords to go education, geography, ethnicity and women are color hit the hardest. black women make about, this is an effort mat, about 54 cents per dollar and latina women are actually hit the hardest. they make 49%. ma leal len yell women are closing the game. the fact is yes, for whatever reason and there are lots of reasons women make less than men. >> you are paid accord to go your ability think and i challenge anyone to say that all women have the same ability. and all men have the same ability. >> i don't think anybody is saying that.
>> we are just talking about absolutely equally used the example of a man and woman graduating from wharton and getting a job at goldman sacks and three years they are earning different money, no matter whether we study lawyers, finance people are engineers in no case di does did skew to the women. but in no case statistically have the welcome out better so. why is that. >> because women are not taught to ask for what they deserve. i speak to women's groups regularly -- >> you are putting the blame on women. >> every time i ask how many people here have ever asked if a raise, 1% of the people in the room say that they have asked if a raise. well, we know men and for raises, they know what they are worth -- what their worth is and demands it. >> there are 24 women ceos in the fortunate 500. one in the top 10 companies. three in the top 25. >> one of them is running for president. >> that's correct. of the s & p500 companies 23 women which is 4.6%.
is it weird that in a society where there are more women than men, more women students than men, more women graduates than men, do these numbers seem weird to you? >> there are two factors one is a generational factor. ceos are older and younger companies women are taking more leadership roles, women are often the primary bread winners, we can't have it both came. if they are the primary breadwinner there is not inequality affecting their opportunitieopportunity. surveys show that women care about work-life bala lot more than men do sometimes that leads it a disparity and who end up being the ceo. you have to make more efforts many do to try to find qualify women candidates glove to get women aboard. >> absolutely. there are people, particularly again older people who don't believe that women can do the jockey believe it's changing as younger people become more elevated in terms of their influence in the corporate world. >> also millennial women are inching closer the i can is you
when women become mothers and that leads toy different conversation about -- [speaking at the same time] >> changed a bit of per seth about that. she took her job att at yahoo. >> she did but also told everybody that couldn't bring their kids to work but built herself her own little day-care. this is your choice, your fault. deal with in. >> it is. it's your choice to have a baby or not. it's your choice whether your job is the post important thing for you. you said it properly if my focuses on my job, i am going to climb the chain. much more quickly. so you do have to make a choice. >> aanushay is right we could have this conversation more. thank you so much for joining us, straight ahead our reporter describes being searched for illegal drugs and weapons. we roll dour down window questions looked in our window and was stern and said i am looking for illegal drugs and illegal weapons so i was a
jamaica relaxed its marijuana laws earlier this year, decriminalizing both the possession and production of small amounts of marijuana. and after the huge boom of tourism seen in washington state and colorado, many in jamaica are looking to cash in. hoping that jamaica will be the next destination for this new kind of green tourism. "america tonight's" lori jane gliha good at look at how some americans trying to take advantage of this new business, lori jane, thank for joining us, jamaica's tourism industry really touts this laid back bob marley kind of lifestyle, they are real trying to get away from what we all concentrated on a few years ago, which was this incredibly violent gang dominated lifestyle. first of all, what was it like to be there?
were you feeling unsafe at any points? >> you know, before i everybody left to go there i had a variety of people come up to me and warning me it could be dangerous there, be careful. but when we actually landed there, i never felt that i was unsafe at any point. we had a local driver who helped take us around, he knew where he was going, we didn't stray after the beaten path and i didn't feel any worry. but the most -- the time when i felt the most vulnerable, insecure was after we had visited the first marijuana farm that we had gone to we were going along and i see men with giant guns stand ago long side the road and i asked the driver and i said what it is that? he said you'll see. so we were pulled over, it was a checkpoint. the person we rolled down or windows he looks in our vehicle and was stern and said i am looking for illegal drugs or illegal weapons. i told him we were journalists. the guy in the front seat was a reputable guy and they let us go. let's take a look at the piece. >> it represent aid huge change
when earlier this year taking a queue from places like -- cue from plays like colorado the jamaican government decriminalized possession of small amounts of the plant. what did you think when early this year marijuana was decriminalized. >> i felt it was a good opportunity for growth. for the people who have bared the brunt of the disgrace and the illegality of it. >> many jamaicans see an opportunity to capitalize on what already is a homegrown international brand. maurice ellis manufactures seasons he hopeses to one day infuse with ma disnats began gentleman. >> when you look around how much opportunities do you see and have? >> budding with excitement. pun intended. >> the farmer didn't show his face there, as you said you were
on a farm that is still technically illegal. how do you even find these guys? >> it help that his my producer is of jamaican did he scent she has contacts there, so initially that's what led us from one person to the next person and we finally teamed one this businessman who led to us our first farmer he wouldn't let our individual driver drive us because they didn't wants him to know where that farm was so we traveled with this guy for a couple of hours and ended up at this farm he didn't want to show his face it was a secret area, we didn't know where we were going, when we got to the second farm, we had interviewed a rastafarian gentlemen who wanted to go on camera and he was also the head of this growers' association after we got there andbility trust with him he called over another farmer. it was very secretive still. but good to have the context initially. >> i can see where the farmer is going to make money. the guy putting ganja in to spices will make money.
was there a sense where they could gain from the further legalization of marijuana? >> there certainly is a lot of hope, but there is a lot of concern. driving through there, it was a ton of poverty. you look and you see these tiny little houses and i think a lot of people are very hopeful that this is going to be -- bring tourists and bring this business boom. but there is also some concern from the ganja farmers the people that are have been growing this all along think the small former are very concerned that the corporations will come in and this big business is going to come in and take over and push them out. but i will say, i mean, definitely a lot of hope and energy moving that direction. >> lori jane gliha good to talk to you thank you for joining us. that does it for this week's show but the conversation continues on our website at aljazerra.com slash third do the rail and on facebook and 30 @aj third rail. you can catch my show on target weeknights 10:30 p.m. i am ali velshi. good night.
this is al jazeera. this is al jazeera. >> hello there i'm barbara serra. this is the al jazeera newshour live from london. coming up in the next 60 minutes. at least 20,000 people take to the streets of vienna, in memory of the 71 people who died if the back of a lorry. one policeman is killed, dozens of others are injured as a nationalist campaign in ukraine turns violence. the government cracks down against people