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tv   Up Front 2018 Ep 9  Al Jazeera  March 25, 2018 7:32am-8:01am +03

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that of the local civil defense agency says it happened near one of the main hospitals provinces syria's largest remaining rebel stronghold and more buses packed with fighters and civilians left for syria's adler province from eastern guta it is the latest withdrawal under an evacuation deal with a government that's expected to see seven thousand people leave the sea on klav. marches are underway and say really it's a call for better treatment of people seeking asylum the palm sunday rallies are expected to take place in several towns and cities across australia australia resettles almost nineteen thousand refugees every year but it's hardline policies designed to tear irregular migration have come under criticism from the un. at least seven people have been killed in a shootout with police in rio de janeiro security forces say they were searching for suspects involved in a recent police killing when they are patrol came under fire at families of the victims deny that police account brazil's military took command of the city and
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state last month and a bit to curb rising violence driven by drug gangs francis said paying tribute to a police officer who was killed in a supermarket siege on friday are no shot by a gunman after swapping places with the hostage it was hailed a hero by president mandela macro on the gunman was killed in the siege in the southern town of trade after he went on a shooting spree the other people were also killed as are the headlines the news continues keep it here on al-jazeera front is next. there was seven candidates vying for egypt's presidency. now there are just two and with president abdul fattah poised for his second term in power international rights groups of calling this election a farce we'll bring you the latest coverage and analysis of the egypt election on our. he's been visiting the white house and won plaudits from the u.s. media but his crown prince mohammed bin salma out of saudi arabia really
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a reform of. his father's call him a reformer even a revolutionary his critics say he's guilty of war crimes in yemen the thirty two year old crown prince of saudi arabia mohammed bin so model m.b.a.'s who claims he's cracking down on corruption and championing women's rights is currently touring the united states but is the real m.b.'s and is the kingdom of saudi arabia really on a path to reform and moderation joining me now to debate this jamal khashoggi a prominent saudi journalist and former royal family advisor currently self exile in washington d.c. who has said the crown prince is acting like putin and becoming saudi's own supremely leader and a supporter of m.p.'s who is executive director of the arabia foundation and author
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of the book the saudi kingdom between the jihadi hama and the iranian and phil thank you both for joining me on outfront jamal let me start with you you've compared your crown prince to putin to iran's supreme leader you said he's creating quote an interesting form of dictatorship how so. see him as a former but he go the old poet within his hand and it would be much better for him to allow. for a critic for saudi intellectuals for all your active sort of the media to debate the most important needed transformation going into what he is doing i called for and they got fired for when it was an editor of a newspaper a loving woman to draw you or a woman to be empowered to. limit the power of the religious establishment i demanded that and he is doing that i use things. but it is an important transformation that requires all of us to contribute to it to
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discuss it and no one should be jailed for that when you say under m.b.'s his rule and interesting form of dictatorship is being created in saudi arabia ever since cider it was founded it has been a dictatorship you know does not bother you when you were working on we know so little no no no things were done by consensus within. the whole. system but throughout the whole family but as we speak today there are intellectuals under notice jill no nobody will dare to speak and criticize that informed ok he's putin he's iran's own supreme leader what's your response to jamal nothing is more difficult and dangerous politically than change particularly dramatic change nobody has been able to carry out dramatic change in the developing world successfully under a poor list existence you need a benevolent to talk receive now you can open things up pre-debate but the question
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is that history has taught us you never know how far you can open the window before it brings the house crashing down that's something that all students of history have studied so he has a he has done a huge amount of things i mean people for example underestimate the what he has done for women and empowering women it wasn't just women's driving it's integrating women into the work workforce when women drove in saudi arabia in one thousand nine hundred one with the women activists or we were both in reality about a mile and i tell you the reaction of the religious conservatives went viral every mosque talked about this time there wasn't a peep from anybody so he had to control that why because he had to because he has intimidated them and he and he threw a number of these religious conservatives and reactionaries in jail for good reason so just on the women drivers thing that that has been the kind of flagship policy of what people in the west of talked about a lot you mentioned that you called him a bold leader who. dragging his country into the twenty first century many would say it's not that bold to allow women to drive in the only country on earth that
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doesn't allow it and it's almost certain to be in the twenty first century society being in the early twentieth century well yes if. very little there is well previous leaders for the last fifty years or benchwork israel who are you are going the rest of the you know you benchmarked your history your benchmark to what was existing in their own country john is a modernizer know you because he's less crazy no doubt card you benchmark put some have met to his predecessors you benchmark people to their environment you benchmark them to their peers you don't benchmark it to the queen of sweden germany . been a villian autocracy these not such a thing as been a villian autocracy a theocracy kind of people and lessons of history proved that one more rule at least likely to lose by the way that people talk about but used to be a sort of consensus driven before king fahd and the you know when when he took the decision to allow american troops to come in and that is documented in western books and in the memoirs of schwarzkopf he took it on the spot by himself he didn't consult anybody prince abdullah the crown prince was next to him and was against it
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so monarchs have always been in saudi arabia the ultimate tourist there is this illusion that they were somehow deserved but those are the case but that should not make us accept we are talking about a forum that you and i support and we have opinions about it for example everybody has opinions about israel it was you reconcile that for example for example how do you reconcile the right wing in this talk about something other than a woman driving new york project this futuristic city that here we is planning to invest half a trillion dollars in it what if it goes wrong it could bankrupt the country but no one's allowed to criticize but no one. objective. piece in any newspaper. you've written pieces here in the us for fox news and others praising his reforms you couldn't write piece inside of a saying whatever you like because you rock. no you can't and there's no doubt about that but if you're ok with that no it's not a question of ok with that any question there is no is to give me an example of
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a democracy in the developing world that can affect change for example look at what happened in afghanistan with karzai right karzai was supposedly elected he was not even the mayor of kabul he could do nothing in his term so when he left office you know afghanistan was still run by warlords it's there was a drug producing center so afghanistan no my point is it doesn't work unfortunately and by the many many developing countries who are democratic would disagree with you but jamal you talk about criticism i want to talk about you you're a newspaper editor you no longer live in saudi arabia you've said that friends of yours have been arrested and detained you said that friends of yours in saudi think twice about sharing whatever isn't fully in line with official government group think you've said why are you in quote unquote exile explain the two of us. because i don't want to be listed i don't want to be. older the irony that he has no opposition sentiment doesn't have an opposition he doesn't have to probably burn. in afghanistan more of the people most of the intellectuals
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most of the people in jail today support reform and if they were out of jail they would be supporting him there is no need to listen a body and that is on the gov the articles where it is true organ for duty but one did and the object to do for because the government allowed them to look at what happiness told you about that article is of the government and blood so let me pump blood the problem but i know you let me put that way but if it will be the way you come obviously you are going to morrow and write a piece saying oh i think b.s. is doing some good stuff but here's where i disagree with him and he went to prison would you be ok with that look in the interest of a valid bit of development there may be mistakes made that are someone else yes would you be ok with jamal i would be ok we are going to go into going to jail for saying that no absolutely not and i don't think he would but usually defend the system that would do that because the system cannot be perfect and the system cannot will make you know you have a caesar took an oath actually i'm giving you no you are the ones who have struck
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no i give you a specific because every day ok. by the way let me just add something the prison in saudi arabia is quite benign if you visit in prison or these prisons there are nothing like that dungeons up at least my own value other than saudi arabia as i still have too much i don't well get it does not have a documented. now even talked about islam is that the problem is you can't pick individual examples and mistakes can happen at an individual level but to affect change in our environment you cannot do it with an open but you can offer to can have debate and discussion you think that one man should be able to make there's no hiding under you having to be on the carpet now on now probably it would be better if we had a wider spectrum of debate and discussion that's a judgment call issue and it's very very difficult for governments. to choreograph that perfect ok because governments at the end of the day what you run in this part of the world if the risk of state breakdown ok we need to we need to move on there's lots to discuss i do want to also ask this question about islam in saudi
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arabia because one of the things that the crown prince has won a lot of praise for jamal in the west is he said saudi arabia would be returning to a moderate islam that is open to all religions and people do you buy that and do you agree with m.b. as his claim that islam insider was moderate before nine hundred seventy nine nor saudi arabia before nine hundred seventy nine wasn't more didn't actually do and where to drive forward an assertion lived by king faced at a time and king faisal brought the muslim brotherhood to all open up the next day hardline a school of sorts and now we are to talk to you going against that but that will take mohammed vinson manotick us and saudi arabia into debating what is what islam what moderate islam saudi arabia has to be aligned with islam the basic law thought the idea which is the constitution but we don't call it a constitution because of what would be visions about the term constitution. we call for that he be an islamic state so what islam are we going to do rather than
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challenging the brotherhood i think saudi anybody should walk into a introducing. loam dirt is that energy so what is that islam that requires an open experienced foot discussion and open discourse for discussion to have that islam but give me one example of an arab country that opened up the space successfully it hasn't but let me go back to the question of islam what is that what is meant was what the words went to i given that trajectory from the founding of saudi arabia until nine hundred seventy nine what the trajectory of continuous liberalization and reducing the role of the clerical class so it had been extremely extreme it was founded and then by nine hundred nineteen seventies it had gotten much much more much more liberal then with the iranian revolution it's scary the government if you had to pick seventeen and about any liberal on iraq you allowed me to the sharia law in the trajectory turns up after that because the reagan revolution scared the whole region has. got to start with
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there was a america by the way but the iranian revolution they really revolution and this is an example of that is sent an example to every cleric in this region if you could take power so neato it was a trajectory. in the sixty's and seventy's saudi was exporting whatever you want to call it what hobby is a. etc to the rest of the world this is a start in seventy nine this was going on in the sixty's in the seventy's do in the nasser period saudi didn't wake up in ninety seven and start sending extremist textbooks around the world you know that oh it's not a question of extremists it is for a lot of people in the west it's ok to do with even when it's. bizarre on the religious system was ultra conservative and yes in the fifty's and sixty's it was it was. learned in seventy nine and it was it was more more than that it was twenty thirty years before aware that what we're going to lowball you keep of course you compare yourself to your history you won't isn't the problem here that you'll say ok after seventy nine you got more extreme agreement and yet you're here now in
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washington what this pluralism i want more dialogue and debate but where was a dialogue and debate in the eighty's and ninety's when you were perfectly happy living and working inside and there were there was. look i got fired for the murder of twice because i was pushing for reform in saudi arabia it wasn't that easy but people would not been put in jail there was a bleeding spirit don't you know had gone through what you are going through now in saudi arabia and in tense period of change your mount of change that has been put in the last two years ok including subsidies you see which are which which affect that man on the street are you could rock the whole you could also have that without it you would also you run the question about just so so easy to see and. point and become easy to sit and say we need particularly the american audience we need more freedom we need more golden things everybody loves ok but the question is rattling radical muslims and you have to these are going to run out of time but you know i never liked al gore asking for democracy asking flawed people to be allowed
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to speak this is i'm asking for the minimum and. i don't think i think that the argument will have a lot of. people out of about ninety seven to done what last point is if mohamed bin sultan says souter was a moderate before seventeen and i'm going to bring it back to what it was before nine to seventy nine he said in sixty minutes it was isn't that a concession that saudi arabia has been extremist for the past forty years despite all the denials westerly logical implications pressure that's a great get turned after nine hundred seventy nine into a much more conservative state it accommodated the extreme reactionary right wing if you want the religious stablish went because of that and he was correcting that ok if anybody for whatever tonight. after seventy nine the government joined her and would dot articles into embossing that is to get you. into the last year of my son month thanks to him unplugged that if someone to blame whatever did that for do
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use because the government will impose the conservative use to do it online that's . ok so i need to move on we can't talk about m.b.'s without talking about the disastrous war and yemen which he's presided over both as crown prince and as defense minister thousands dead millions at risk of famine and color of the world's worst humanitarian crisis according to the u.n. so this part of the discussion i want to bring in from new york sarah leah whitson director of the middle east division at human rights watch sarah thanks for joining us. how much responsibility does saudi arabia and m.b.'s bear in your view for what's going on in yemen right now the violence and suffering there. well i would say that they are responsible for the overwhelming amount of human suffering we're seeing in yemen right now the united nations is just least figures on the casualties there with over. six thousand civilians.
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tripping over sixty percent of the civilian casualties to airstrikes which are in the saudi coalition and that's primarily saudi arabia is carried out the saudi coalition has imposed an air sea and land blockade on yemen. for ninety percent. from the start of its medicines resulting in the humanitarian disaster that we're seeing now in the country and i would point massive physical destruction of the country massive cultural destruction of the country as well so how do you respond to that how do you square and b.s. being a reformer home while committing what. war crimes abroad well there are two sides to according a country does not go to war for fun or for impetuousness as members of the of the dormice community like yourself accuse. such do it went to war because it felt that
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security was acutely threatened which is why countries go to war it's felt that if it allowed what was happening on that southern border to develop where the hutus would become a powerful militia like has a lot its security could be existentially threatened when the police took over the whole of yemen they had a vision of saudi arabia being. into another lebanon so they went to war now this is a war that has been going on for three years now it's a tragedy every human casualties a tragedy but you said sara you know six thousand civilians of which sixty percent have been attributed to saudi that's three thousand six hundred civilians killed over three years that it's been done in syria in a week first of all i think ali is confusing two basic concepts one is the solution to go to war and whatever reasons the saudi arabia government has offered for bombarding yemen and are really irrelevant to the question if that means they used to fight this war means that our unlawful means that are now to war crimes means that include using unlawful weapons like cluster bombs that we have documented
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dozens of times that will continue to impact generations of yemenis to come a means of more fair that includes bombarding schools universities hospitals places of residence really wildly indiscriminate it's completely unprofessional. dislikable some have up and one market please don't interrupt me please i know that's a custom maybe in saudi arabia but no please don't do what i would i would ask you not to insult you know that about the way by the way after after i'm done second of all you must be borrowing your talking points from and you know modern israel but also chooses to distract not the scape from israeli war crimes in a place like does that by saying well. somewhere else is worse syria is worse sudan is worse than some where as you were saying we're going to compare saudi arabia to its own record to its own standards and the record standards of conduct of its war in yemen are shameful and despicable and whose population has long been so outraged
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by israeli crimes in gaza for you to sit here and try to rush under the carpet test abuses of saudi arabia against the people of yemen against the children of yemen which is landed saudi arabia twice on the secretary general's list of shame for abuses against children it's really just embarrassing because i live on a log i want to respond you've got some losses but you know what first of all i mean she she exposed herself by saying some of the reasons are irrelevant you actually said the reason for going to war over oil is true we're talking about irrelevant about the conduct of the debate about earlier to think i've got a question about. two things the conduct of war when you talk about war crimes you have to assume that there is an intent to harm civilians there's not that is harm civilians why don't i let me finish don't interrupt you're the one electorate people on interrupting i don't know that there is no intent there's been no evidence to prove that there was any intent unfortunately you are fighting an irregular army and a regular army that is fighting a public relations war that situates its material next to civilian houses that uses
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schools that uses hospitals so you get sometimes talk about how to start going to treatment to fix of course in the way the koreans understand however it looks they've got the ability to tell you the civilians how do they know they're deliberately talking through how do they reach out to kill how do you know bush ourselves to be if you've got make that argument that everyone in the world all because i know i shall i said has killed the half a million people and you have your good action if you're into your bizarre multimillion people so he's your but i wanna know he's on my want is he's really weird no because i'm saying i'm going to get something you know you are saying about a lot of he's a reformer when i point to alleged war crimes in yemen your responses but it's not as bad as bashar al assad yes but this is not claiming to be about charles you know if i were to be the moderate muslims i what i'm saying that they are not war crimes because war crimes there has to be an intent sarah has to be no let me finish what i want to. it is our house so we have got to talk to carry out war crimes that means that that purposefully wanted to hit the square made that well now you wrap it in balance let me finish one other point has the saudi military made mistakes of course it could have meant that that was what are you said mistakes are so
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deliberate let sarah come back in the right hold on so one other time under international law when you find a widespread and systematic pattern of abuses you can deduce intent are not all war crimes require showing of say someone saying something and again i should note that the israeli defense has you have to silence white spread systematic pattern of indiscriminate targeting is what we deduce intent from and we've seen repeatedly when barbed wire schools hospitals medical clinics places of residence richey a widespread systematic attacks on civilian targets we have investigated dozens and dozens of those strikes as have other human rights organizations as has the un. human rights body and found no real terror target in the vicinity do not tell me that all of the bombardment of civilian targets in yemen is due to hold these hiding in the midst that is the excuse that israelis you know so let me let me we run out of time unfortunately jamal i'm going to ask you the final question of what is the way out of yemen you were a supporter of this war but is there
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a way that m.b.'s is going to bring it to an end doesn't seem like you know we're after freedom and for a peaceful solution that is inclusive and one hundred and some the conference must agree to accept islam must in yemen under forty in yemen and everybody else he have to decide what to what as it has by the way what what was said to go to saudi arabia from a. president in yemen is an inclusive public shared government that includes everybody we need to do. any other of our borders but you get democracy in yemen where you think you're going to tell yemen but you think you can create a gentler look turned to accept islam. just he wanted to defeat the whole c. net i loved islamised to get up there on a day or time and i know this house i mean i want to go to the nominee you made a lot of points i would ask you a yes or no question and since you mention democracy in yemen m.b.'s is the great reformer in the eyes of some people is on his watch is saudi ever going to become
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a democratic yes or no not in his watch i haven't heard him make even the slightest difference that he would open to he would up in the country for. sharing for democracy and i know you're going to get i'm going to give you the last word but sara do you think saudi sort of to be on any kind of reform towards democracy do you think. no absolutely not tragically not and it's really quite an insult to the saudi people who are increasingly educated increasingly articulate and deserve the right to be able to engage in the political affairs of the country the fact that that democratic talk it's not going towards democracy should go towards better governance and the whole point about democracy it has not worked we'll have to leave it there. shall be sarah leah whitson thanks for joining me from. it's been called betrayal the us economy is strong again you. said record after
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record day today i think we'll get another one today but let's hold off on congratulating president trump just yet the american economy is doing well but it didn't grow by three four or five percent last year as trump projected it might real g.d.p. actually grew by two point three percent roughly the same average it's been growing out since the end of the great recession. last year's growth is an improvement over the previous year but it's still shy of growth in two thousand and fifteen and two thousand and fourteen sorry no trump up here yet what about jobs according to trump job creation is a story and it's all thanks to him yes the u.s. out almost two million jobs in two thousand and seventeen but that's the smallest increase since two thousand and nine so how is it that in less than a year trump can justify changing his tune from i've inherited the worst financial recovery in sixty five years to things are booming it's sounding too good to be
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true the stock market is spanish one record after the stocks trump almost out of there for a second but once again his rhetoric didn't match reality for starters the stock market in the economy are not the same the economy is the sum of all the goods we buy sell and produce it's about the real wages of citizens the stock market on the other hand is the speculative value. and trading of those products and businesses the two are connected but often mistakenly conflated because you could actually have a skyrocketing stock market and a slow economy at the same time or vice versa the stock market is also just as a ball of talent unpredictable is trump himself the market downs are the result of a complex set of factors not just the president so trump should do him self a favor and stop linking his leadership to the stock market success because if he wants to claim the blooms he may have to own the bus to the dow's one thousand point plunge with the second steepest drop on record for a more accurate picture focus on the data and trends and remember this is donald
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trump is allied on the record an average of five times a day since taking office so far the evidence of a trump is nowhere to be seen money talks but in this case it's just chump loss there. will be back next week. looks ugly it sounds ugly and scares people from america's high streets to mexico's on the world's record holders the side and who controls the other side people in power follows the smuggling route and test the ease of acquiring untraceable weapons on american soil the weapon that was designed for war and it took you about five minutes to buy it unless you try america's guns arming mexico's cartel on al-jazeera congressman are you interested in stopping crime.
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it's just it's where ever you. win winning the will of the people hinges on the mass media state p.r. machine is going to overdrive. but just who is influencing whom. we just don't know yet where the lines will be drawn between what can be said and what conducted. some journalists decided to sacrifice their integrity for outside polling the media opinion the listening post time on al-jazeera.

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