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tv   Inside Story 2018 Ep 93  Al Jazeera  April 4, 2018 10:32am-11:00am +03

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a few days from on the day she has reached malaysia they're now being processed by immigration staff they've been sheltering there with hundreds of thousands who fled violence and myanmar. myanmar court has delayed ruling on the fate of two voices journalists who are currently being detained the decision on whether to dismiss the case has been pushed back to next week while law and. tuesday of possessing secret government documents their lawyers say there isn't enough evidence to support those charges rights groups say they're being targeted for reporting on the crisis the second day of severe transport disruption is under way in france around work as a striking in protest against president emanuel plans labor reforms only a fraction of trains are running leaving many commuters stranded they want the government to drop proposed cuts to benefits and pensions. it's been fifty years since the death of civil rights leader martin luther king jr was shot dead in memphis as a nine hundred sixty eight by james earl ray he led
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a movement of nonviolent resistance. because of the headlines on al-jazeera inside story is coming up next. there is a very important source of information for many people around the world old and runs have gone i'm still here going to areas that nobody else is going to talk to people that nobody else is talking to and bringing that story to the forefront. remembering the life and legacy of winnie mandela for decades she was a prominent figure in the fight against apartheid south africans say goodbye to the woman they call the mother of the nation we ask who are the next generation of leaders this is inside story.
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hello and welcome to the program i'm. outspoken defiant controversial many called her the mother of the nation winnie mandela was one of the most prominent leaders of the decades long fight against whites minority rule in south africa when her husband the late nelson mandela was imprisoned for twenty seven years she became the face of the movement to bring equality and justice but years later that image suffered when when he was convicted of involvement in the beating death of a suspected police informants a case that was brought before the truth and reconciliation commission after the end of apartheid well throughout her life winnie mandela inspired and fought for millions of poor south africans will bring in our guests in a moment but for us catherine sawyer reports from. a vigil for we
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name. in soweto the very heart of the anti apartheid struggle president cyril ramaphosa came to pay his respects as we say in african culture. a gigantic korea has fallen and this is the winnie mandela three that provided shame for the people of south africa mandela will be given a state funeral next saturday and before that will be memorial services and across the country she has been one of the strongest women in our struggle who suffered immensely under the apartheid regime who was imprisoned who was banished who was treated very badly separated not only from her husband but from the children as well and their people but notwithstanding all the she remains strong. she remained determined
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she was courageous. i mean up and actually became the face and voice of nelson mandela and i come pain while he was in prison for twenty seven yes all these people say they are here to celebrate the life of winnie mandela but also very controversial she's been accused of being involved in human rights abuses during the iraq times she's also been accused of having a very militant leadership style a song say this could take her legacy personally. but for people here the eve of their part right system she fought draft hotshot cummings. it would understand. itself was fired. it was natural. violence against. a comes to mind is that she defied an
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apartheid system which isn't such a huge negative impact on our country and the biggest ever project still lives on today. she might have lived a checkered life with her own political and past struggles but many people in south africa want to remember half of the role she played in the fight against apartheid and the impact she had to know people here for them she is the mother of the nation katherine saw al-jazeera john is back south africa. well joining me from johannesburg is tokyo sexwale ali he's south africa is the former minister for human settlement until two thousand and thirteen he's also a former prisoner alongside nelson mandela thanks very much for speaking to me on al-jazeera you're obviously outside the home of for winnie mandela where people have come to their respects mr sikes wali how would you describe the icon that
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south africa has lost i must say that it's a sad day here in south africa with a loss of somebody who consider as one of the most iconic leaders as a pioneer amongst women the first black social worker in south africa and of course was a companion of this mandela. we mandela was a like a candle in the cross winds of contradictions in our country she's served the people with fortitude and survived all the brutal years and a party being imprisoned being detained being tortured sometimes but lived to see on has been coming from jail after twenty seven years still went on with the struggle for social change she was often described as the mother edition just of you speaking she's the mother of the unwashed poor of the poorest in our country that's who she is we've lost
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a great i call to get out yet and i understand that you were able to speak to her last week can you tell us anything about that conversation anything that she said to you that stands out for you. well you know but for me the foundation provides wheelchairs and i wanted to give it will cheer because she's using a stick right now but the defiant and indefatigable weedy was even defying gravity was refusing to find herself walking or being assisted with the wheelchair but the conversation was about social change in south africa the incomplete revolution she was talking about the fate of the land is still not yet with the people the economy still left it with the masses and of course the way with all social change economy change still needs to continue solve despite the fact that we have political freedom so she was insistent on that but also very forgiving to say the people who tortured the people who did all types of things will always be in her prayers it
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was almost a repetition of what she had said you know an interview in twenty fifteen so we had least eleven rushes come with herself i think she understood that she's on her last legs that should be going and they gave an interview of that special dates i wish the same to south africans these are need to understand that the struggle for social justice because we just is continues despite the fact that we have got political power so do you believe that see believe her job was done when she died what do you think her legacy is going to be well the legacy if we do mandela is the fact that she was a pioneer amongst women but there's also good light we knew was not just the chief of the chief of the bronc of nelson mandela she covers their own starchild authority on her own twenty seven is without her husband to do seven years as a single parent and twenty seven years as the only shining light inside south africa at the time when her organization the conditional congress was bent at the
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time with the leaders like this of until we imprisoned she eventually was a so when i say assume she was working alone because she was isolated. and bent she was the light and kept of people a life and legacy the leaders of struggle indifferent to give will the fight and to the last moment that is we but you destructive of women she put us a bit of a high right now some of the okie plays one of the top positions in the world with representation of women in all the national board is the government the judiciary as well as it by them and she leaves the legacy of the fight for social change so that we should care about other people who are not in the center stage of the call of the poorest of the poor than washed that's a legacy and it's a legacy that sin needs to be worked upon by those of us what it means to be sure that our people realize the true worth of the food of the bundler to struggle but see also was
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a woman that was mired in certain controversies she was convicted in there and did her controversies over saddo her image as a woman who fights for liberation and the struggle for liberation like it is a struggle does have is undersides we need is not to be whitewashed we made mistakes sometimes terrible ones we knew was implicated in the death of this young man did in the course of the struggle you know how a party dues to work that finger anyone as a spy and this young man was fingered and we found ourselves caught up in that situation but but what we have said is that there's one thing that you can never get wrong with mandela all the mistakes that she has made in the direction of us talk a little action of evolution at no stage did any of those mistakes to talk to from the road of change the road of freedom in south africa where old white washing these things people should talk about her life talk about hippos the tubes as well as the negatives but let's say that at no stage did she ever compromise or struggle
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or betray our people we accepted fully with the mistakes that she has meat and she has been told by ourselves with things were wrong. and they went horribly wrong that's what archbishop desmond tutu said at what was called the truth and the quote sedition commission itself. surely things did go horribly wrong weili as she hesitated but in the end she said yes she accepted it and she has also told but at this moment here in this country on this continent we're not really want to play presidents day and we don't tie it to my own and cut it down is so find is what should come as she has got that will address in history this moment we're mourning for we we have taken the positives from the book of life where not not when i don't i way of her shortcomings but want to emphasize her legacy the good things that she did well struggle for the mets appreciation of all of our people mistakes and all
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they do have been these type of things and we've never condoned them ok and just finally can you just tell us what is. more of the situation behind you i know you're outside of her home and and so i just says set the scene for us if you may and perhaps tell us some of the stories that people are saying about winnie mandela . well there's a lot of media here including the good old al-jazeera. many people from across the country are here and it's common cause that we would with somebody has passed away of this start people coming to pass condolences and so on you know when you saw you saw with princess diana passed on people come outside of the parties to put flowers on you know our country people to a toy they come to seem to be trying as adults all this unity to the day here be. they do that they get to live in this they're here to exchange old one another to come sit in the old own homes and weep and mourn for we this is
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a morning they come here to mourn the old one another and that's what is happening here all right mr tokyo sexwale we thank you very much for speaking to us from johannesburg. now i'm joined by tembisa fuck who there is a researcher at the al-jazeera center for studies and former chairman of the foreign correspondents association of south africa and from johannesburg. an activist and writer who specializes in governance and development welcome to you both thanks for speaking to us on inside story. this is what the president has said cyril ramaphosa saying she was a voice for the voiceless and the tab mbeki foundation put out a statement winnie never elevated herself above the people how much does that ring true for you well it's very true she was the say cells the sort of can struggle for much more longer than many also you currently does and with indian see when many of
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the african national congress leaders when eggs and some of them we're in prison the person who led the struggle in south africa was when mandela amongst others so yes she should have presented the struggle for that a long time in fact for many of my generation don't we face. we knew. which represented your party struggle was that of them under the because we're not a lot so example to have pictures of other liberation movements that is circulated within the certain communities so women are not a became the face of the struggle against apartheid in south africa so yes totally agree with what the president said yesterday i saw she was referred to as the mother of the nation what was it for you that made her earn that title well the very first time i saw her from a distance in the township of i'm lousy in causal in a tell she made
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a promise to a community that didn't have running water that they would within a month or two get what used to be called stand pipes in other words pipes outside every few houses so not within the houses but outside if you has a so they wouldn't have to you know transport water and within a few weeks less than a month literally that happened i saw that in action under apartheid that was an extremely powerful statement for me as to who we me was what she was how she operated she was she came across as a regal as compassionate and passionate and very very idealistic fiery. but at a rate his dream. temby say she herself had to endure quite a bit while nelson mandela was in prison himself how much how much did you have to . put up with then or shows benish to some obscure village in then the free state.
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southern part of africa taken away from a common environment she was deprived of live in the normal life because of her associations first with nelson mandela but of course later on because of the involvement within the struggle of sort of she was jailed often in solitary confinement in many other instances deprived of playing a role of a mother too had two kids at the time so yeah i mean when amanda went through quote quite a bit but also as a woman she says that you know african woman spirits they're enduring one and no wonder many people particularly young stories around the way she lived we attracted to her house and because of that she started some social kind of gatherings including the football club which later on came to kind of haunt her political life but she was. a mother figure to many people in the youngsters
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in south africa so yes she will be dearly missed by many and it's difficult at this particular time to find anything negative to say about her notwithstanding of course there's been a lot that has been reported over the years of what she did in order to do what i mean those people have a benefit of hindsight. is quite easy for them to comment negatively about her role in the political struggles that are fickle but for those who were around. the city and who lived over to there will tell you that she was a pillar of strength and that's why she was attractive including a house much more attractive to be honest as from around the the township at a time when the spirit of looking at her life in. whole we will have to look at some of the controversies in just a moment before i get into that she once said this i am not spend us products i am the product of the masses of my country and the products of my enemy what must it
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what must it have been like for her being a female leader a woman in that time in that movement in that culture. as to the sense that you know she was very isolated she wrote a book called for ninety one about four hundred ninety one days of confinement incarceration and for the first two hundred ninety days of that she didn't have access to anyone except the interrogators in jail is imagine how that must have felt as a young mother who'd been taken from her home in the middle of the night not knowing where her children were not knowing where they were being held for no access to anybody outside those jail is for almost a year and here she was the person who was bearing the burden of carrying on mandela's iconography if you will in a personal sense after he'd been sentenced to life imprisonment after the a.n.c. and other liberation movements had been banned in many ways she was
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a black power movements a black feminist movements dream she was at a time when the apartheid government was trying to convince not just white people but black people too that blackness was equivalent to ugliness that blackness was equivalent to stupidity here was an outstandingly beautiful woman with an extraordinary intellect with the power of a retreat with a huge personal charisma she was the apartheid state worst nightmare in connacht and in all of that and through all the trials struggles and travails she underwent she was fearless she had so much courage was indomitable she remained compassionate and passionate and very much a people's person with the controversy is how i must say. just just one second if you may i said tembisa with her controversies how much influence
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were c. still able to exert while she had shared she exhibited tremendous amount of influence as i've said earlier on that for those who have a benefit of hindsight yes they can criticize but for her she was you know on the ground leading from the front and she influenced a lot not only in terms of the political struggle in south africa but also the gender justice movement or or feminism so example the understanding of of women isms should say in some places that the for example women of the global south have got different social political agencies compared to the women of the north she was all the people that it was for me personally assisted me in understanding the differences so she was he was extremely extremely influential she was also social workers if you go to the current house in soweto and speak to the enables they'll tell you that she was involved in all kind of social projects within the
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society but most importantly i used to meet in a in a shopping complex called micro in johannesburg she did her own shopping often and she would be posing with the shoppers for pictures etc so she was she was an all rounder she was a mother she was a freedom fighter but most importantly she was that normal good neighbor and i think the many people who remember her in different in different ways ok i saw the itself africa and the communist party has put out this statement saying that it's deeply worried that the south african revolution is losing the veterans who contributed immensely to our struggle against colonial oppression and south africa is now poorer without her do you agree. i agree that south africa is not for or without many of our veterans but i think we must also avoid a tendency towards hagiography we need more winnie was not perfect she was floored i was a teenager when the whole scandal about stumpy broke about abu bakar us bedstead
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croak and her alleged involvement in that about her spirit campaign against a priest based largely on homophobia etc so there were negatives in her life many will pass these off as being products of post-traumatic stress disorder as being part of a war situation but even within a war situation there is a principle of spello of just war and my wynnie certainly from the evidence we have in books such as kathy's as journey which really you know highlights how a witness for the t r c during her hearing with spurted out of the country tortured and incarcerated in zambia for a while and eventually made his way to the u.k. certainly that eyewitness testimony of somebody who witnessed strong piece murder and her involvement in it he was another member of this football club it really
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really speaks to the fact that there was very little done to establish with the allegations against stumpy were actually true or not or not and there is a lot in that narrative that shows her up as somebody who was deeply flawed who was very judgmental at times very contradictory at other times almost perverse almost multiple personas and here's i think i shall for the sake of time let me let me let me just jump in there because tembisa she was very critical or critical some people would say of the and see for example so how would you describe the the state of the relationship between winnie mandela and the and the city. they how do you think the a.n.c. is seeing this and what do you think she would think of the state of the party today what i think the challenge that luna meant to lead the struggle or let's face it in the absence of the leaders of the a.n.c. for a long time and certainly when many of the a.n.c.
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political prisoners were released in some way in exile will tend to south africa mainly men. to an extent imposed on her and she was already a power that establish itself in our own right as a strong political leader and i think to an extent that's where the conflict of ideas and the conflict of of of my how to move the organization forward started creeping in and she was of course very critical of certain members of the since that leaders of the in c. because the in c. after it least ninety ninety four when the first democratic elections okayed in south africa many of them fell into the trap of the comforts of power and she was one of those who criticize the they criticize the president himself at the time just assume that all presidents including her own former husband mandela so she was
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very critical because she stood for a position and that's what she would miss for she she was not you know she should not to follow the main seas instruction to the law to even though you know some of those instructions that were given to her when she felt there were not correct she spoke against against them and she spoke for considerable veins and should be remembered for that by many people including some of the ins in the days ok we'll have to leave it there thank you very much. for joining us and i psychology thank you for speaking to us as well and earlier we had tokyo sexwale they were talking to us on the program and thank you for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website algy. zero dot com and for further discussing go to our facebook page that's facebook dot com forward slash a.j. inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter our handle is at a.j. inside story for myself and the full team here and good bye for now.
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