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tv   The Stream 2018 Ep 69  Al Jazeera  May 1, 2018 5:32pm-6:01pm +03

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the situation we're in now iran's describing israel's prime minister as an infamous liar after making u.s. legations about a secret nuclear weapons program benjamin netanyahu showed reporters what he said was proof that the iranians had lied before signing the nuclear agreement three years ago britain says the deal is quote vitally important the dominican republic has announced it's breaking ties to taiwan to establish diplomatic relations with china after panama last year it is the latest country to cut ties with taiwan leaving the island with just nineteen diplomatic allies worldwide a tower block has collapsed after catching fire in brazil killing at least one person the twenty floor former police headquarters in sao paolo had been abandoned and occupied by squatters emergency crews are searching the rubble for several missing pieces. a roman catholic cardinal is to stand trial in australia for sexual abuse decades ago he's george pell cardinal george pell he has pleaded not
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guilty after dozens of witnesses gave evidence but a month long committal hearing. in the philippines capital manila thousands of union workers have marked labor day with protests there angry over the president roderigo to tertius failure to honor one of his main campaign promises union groups expected to turn to sign an executive decree ahead of labor day to strengthen the rights of temporary workers those are your headlines the news continues after the stream i will see you same time tomorrow. you stand the differences. and the similarities of cultures of. al-jazeera.
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femi oke a today why are looted ethiopian treasures from the nineteenth century still in the u.k. . a new exhibition in london showcases plundered artifacts from the obvious simian empire casting a spotlight once again on the debate over whether the spoils of war should be returned to their home countries so right now you are in the stream we're live on al-jazeera and eugene so leave your comments in the chap box on league and i will do our best to get into the czech. money was bought. on the. street. if you know piers government is calling for the return of cultural artifacts plundered one hundred fifty years ago by the british army the relics some of which a car on display at london's victoria and albert museum was stolen in eight hundred sixty eight after the battle of dollar that's when british troops raided the fortress of up a city in ampara us the second to release
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a group of prison missionaries if you know pierre has previously requested that several witches institutions give back hundreds of money scripts and alter facts and that the remains of the emperor is a young sometimes i lay my you who was kidnapped during the same raid and take it to britain be returned will be in a museum director tristram hard task proposed lending items in the museum's collection to european institutions as part of a long term loan partnership but a man mohamed who pitched city show suggested this idea and said take a look. this is going to issue you to turn to some must be returned. your sentiment products we need to make this one more practical and sustainable so why not support if you're going to design and management of museums and to spread traction so why not expand technical support and research cooperations and why not turn the profits of such ventures and promote its copyright on stories and the pieces were actually plucked were not. there were displayed
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as not really good parents can afford to travel to the u.k. so she diluted historical artifacts we may need which is museums or should they be repatriated to ethiopia joining us now to discuss this we have muslim in good stay she is a fulbright scholar and author of the novel beneath the lion's gaze she joins us from new york also in new york maxwell anderson an author and the former director of the dallas museum of art and a new caso on the line in the united kingdom we have no and he is an associate professor of law at university hello everybody it's great to have you here in the street so i want to start with our community because we put this question to them and this is what we asked do you think artifacts plundered by the british army hundred fifty years ago should be returned i mean this is pretty woman isn't a lot of the comments we got stanley here says this isn't a question to debate i knew the answer is obvious however it may not be as obvious
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to this person who also tweeted and paul said it should only be returned to once they can guarantee that the artifacts won't be sold to art lovers around the world and personally i think they're safer in british hands a war you can see the debate has started online right there what side of it do you fall on. i think the ethical responsibility the moral responsibility to safeguard these traitors and culture artifacts that belong to particular countries that are strangers they are also universal in terms of their values and valued by people who societies around the world are so the responsibility to safeguard that is collective and in some cases even the rightful owners of this culture the properties from some of the reasons are incapable of providing the kind of security and and preservation that these icons require when
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those who have the resources and technical know how can always support them so this is really not have the first tweet noted this is not an issue for debate and of this property of house to be sent back to their right and forwards to their more owners but in terms of the debate around preservation and their integrity other nations other people are on the what it can i can support them and a lot of the give me a lot of the unicycle conventions that regulate issues around how these artifacts property should be protected provided specifically for international cooperation and assistance post technical and financial. saying max the reason it's starting to go up was because this very spritz museum said our we are all going to loan you artifacts back to you as a long term loan that cost the ferrari what you make of that right.
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well i think the track with british museums is that we require an act of parliament to allow them to the accession so-called or to turn these works at these e.o.p. which is not an impossibility but it requires a public sort of mill stream of interest within britain to get members of parliament to say it's time it. time to take this from eight hundred sixty eight and write it i don't know how that would play out within britain but that's just a legal construct it's not no one would debate for michael to do the moral argument that these works were arrested illegally from abyssinia at the time to date moderate you know this is not like a moral argument though to you max we talked to the british museum they sent us a statement was a long statement too but stood out for us he is the first part in terms of loans the trustees of the british museum have always been clear that they will consider it subject to the use of considerations of condition and fitness to travel any no
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request for any part of the collection the museum lends many thousands of objects or over the world each year so close please ask with ink about it we may well send it to pick up the right conditions that's not going into the nitty gritty of the law that's just them saying this stuff is our stuff and when loan it to you after how to think about it. yes and just to be fair the british museum they've been extremely generous in making loans around the world to institutions of various sizes in various places but the issue at hand here is not alone it is a claim it is an absolute claim by the government of ethiopia which is saying alone is not sufficient that doesn't recognise our title as a yes well i think that the idea that the d.n.a. museum will long ethiopia back the items that were stolen
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from ethiopia that ethiopia can be a borrower of it's own items that were taken unlawfully is a slap in the face to no ethiopians and to the ethiopian government. i understand that there are difficulties and. parliament may need to get involved you know there are the legalities and the complications that surround this . but i think the fact remains that this is as as max said rightfully that there's a moral obligation here but i'd also like to point out that there were three instances where some of the looted items were returned to ethiopia and the first was to employ you know hundreds who succeeded teodoro after two address commits suicide and then there were two other instances where i
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believe it was in one nine hundred twenty four and one thousand nine hundred sixty five where items were returned to emperor haile selassie so this can happen and has happened before and i also think that if italy and this is something that i will said on twitter today or yesterday if italy can return the old lisc that they stole out of iraq soon in one thousand nine hundred eighty seven after sixty eight years and if they can return it was all the logistical difficulties. a few items from the v.n.a. museum i mean there are other things but we're talking about this right now i don't think it's an impossibility it has happened before so you mentioned this can happen and i want to bring up two tweets from our community members who are talking about how it could happen this is roosevelt who first takes on the issue of the loan she says before they could get hands on those artifacts lives were taken they are
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a living memory that this violence and plunder happen to us that they still ask for countries to take them back on loan is a reminder that they don't fully appreciate the terror of their forefathers and mothers another person ways and this is samson and he does a little added a headline in the gym set up properly he says so he tweeted this to us lou that if the opium treasures in the u.k. should be returned on loan he changes it to. instead of could should be and they should be returned with interest. i want to bring this to you because several people have brought up money compensation that they should be given back along with some of the funds that these countries don't have that they could have had if they were in their country to begin with. yes i think i will go back to the point earlier is your relation to major's parliament needs to take in order for this
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cultural property to be repopulated to ethiopia now it's your base is a sovereign state in terms of the dealing with the u.k. introduced with artists already in the states so what the u.k. government does in terms of changing its food station has no beginning whatsoever on if your b.s. clear eyed so if the relations between europe and the u.k. give it according to international law your case on internal legislation has no bearing on that claim but in international law as well there is an obligation on the part of the u.k. to recognise the rights that the european with european people had over these cultural property there will be a similar kids in one thousand sixty's go to the international court of justice which is the principal goodish or going to the united nations with a kid brought by cambodia pilot and and the underlying principle in that it was really important for for the kids at hunt here and the court said that there is an obligation to restore order and removed cultural corporately to the state for most
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territory it originated and the court said this is the principle implicit in this order in power in this already notoriously of the state so in terms of going to legal difficult. i don't think that is an insurmountable make rule or. do you think i have another song that i actually want to pose to match the match you have been a director of a museum i'm really curious beyond this a legal framework that may well be impacting that is impacting what british museums can do in terms of restitution to giving back. what about the idea of maybe just feeling embarrassed and also good about the situation in your. charge of all of the stolen goods basically his tristen hunt and he is the director of the victorian albert museum he wrote a blog he wrote
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a blog about the eight hundred sixty eight exhibition i'm just going to scan it down here because he describes some of these objects they are stunning pieces with a complex history that a compact history that feels like a euphemism right that back then the idea about as a museum director when you're being asked to give items back what are you thinking . so pressing you know just second what i will said in respect to the government to be theo beer and the government of the united kingdom i think the only point is that the victorian albert museum by itself needs the government of u.k. to force its hand as it were that's going to have nots suggesting that it's not utterly within the realm of likelihood that two nations should sort this out between themselves i think that the question you ask about personal obligation is a critical one when i was director of the dallas museum of art i restitute and
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antiquity to the republic of turkey where an evidence was presented to me that it was looted and looted in recent times in the late one nine hundred ninety s. and the same with the republic of italy i actually approached the republic of it'll lead to confirm that these works were looted and i did the same thing with the turkish authorities they didn't wait to be approached and so in a customs understanding that the challenges that befall a director. and i think the challenge in this instance is that great britain has not been as let's say forthcoming as the certainly purpose in this conversation or advocating. i would suspect we're seeing a change in attitude in popular attitude which will inevitably have an effect on museum policy and in the opinion of the british people. well miles i want to bring up a concept that a few people in our community are raising this is mom on twitter who says you think should stay in london it's safer in my den than this are anywhere in if the opium
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now we got our response a bit of a formal response video comment from the embassy the ethiopian embassy in the u.k. and this is what the deputy head of mission told the stream. yes i do believe that . it does she need to be here because. he didn't. he say i'm endorsing this civilization here in people's personal data and. all capable whole reason and this is the things they're headed. it's. going to see he's forced into the situation some other he says if he'll be as capable of preserving and playing some people online say they're not so sure well i think that that that the idea that ethiopia or other nations that are maybe not from the west are not as capable of
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taking care of their own historical active artifacts and treasures is really a condescending patronizing and racist form of thinking that should be. we should have moved further than the spine now but i would just like to point out that in ethiopia we have the rounds of lucy which is one of the many many many treasures that are still in the country and still kept safely ethiopia is capable of this and can take care of these items and i do think that there is an opportunity for the v.n.a. museum to also work in collaboration with ethiopia in making sure that it's your has the most technologically advanced. i'm mechanisms for for safe keeping and preserving some of some of these artifacts but it's already happening there it's not that ethiopian all that feeling but i
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think that there's room for improvement but it's not. i completely disagree but i kind of the city is incapable yeah go ahead out can i just yet and i fully agree with mother's point that this is extremely condescending to simply reproducing the crony automatically that societies in the global south are not capable of print providing protection for these. precious treasures that are still stuck or something their culture and some of all of this are touched by the way have some very strong religious significance and a cultural significance for the ethiopian people so the idea that they come to provide protection is just downright condescending and i think the most important point here is the question of who actually all these properties and i think the argument about providing protection is
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a very secondary question is and it's not always in every question so instead of focusing on the secondary question of when that will be able to provide protection or more the frost question that we need to determine is who owns these properties if we own them if you look at own i will i could get into the pop in europe and then. now you have to have i agree with the forgive me for interrupting i was going to say it's almost irrelevant because the fact the matter is that the possessor an owner of something has the right to treat it as they choose to we're all confident that the ethiopian authorities would apply a great deal of effort to safeguarding ensuring that these works were protected that they were in a climate controlled and i meant to the extent possible that they were made available for public viewing in appreciation and learning there is a example that some would cite which is that the republic of turkey at a six excess a lawsuit against the metropolitan museum of art they brought back over one hundred sixty treasures that had been looted from turkey they went to a museum
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a regional museum in turkey and several of them are subsequent at least poland from that museum now this is an exception it's like a red herring that's brought up but i think that there will be voices that say you can can't always count on a source country to have the resources and frankly the ability to battle corruption that can make difficulties down the road but it's irrelevant the core the core question and that you make is the correct one who owns it is where you start what happens to it downstream and it's a fantastic idea that the d.n.a. could be helpful as a collegial institution to in hand and sing the security and climate control and protection of the works if they were richard i think that's how you feel and discussing these alpha facts will be looking at very thin videos of these artifacts on show tristam hunt again a director of a toy in albert museum and he was thinking about how do i get out of forethought curation what is the way forward this is what he told us any of us might have
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a look but as we look to the future i think what we're interested in all partnerships around conservation interpretation heritage management and these need to be supported by government assistance so that institutions like the v.n.a. can support sister institutions in ethiopia. so you may remember that i showed you that blog post that tristram hunt wrote explaining about the mandela exhibit and underneath the blog post a lot of conversation going on here is reggae and this phrase telling what i'm thinking i'm just amusedly and so i'm thinking what race thinking i think the few should accept the offer of a long term loan then forget to give them back possession is nine tenths of the law it doesn't matter how you get them back it just matters that you do with the the n.a. really go to court to try and get them back once they were in ethiopia with all the negative publicity that that would ensure i doubt it max i am thinking if i am think it is every time there is
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a debate about we're going to give you this exhibition you can have it on loan it belongs to that country why wouldn't they just still back their own stuff tell us why that is probably. most of you are certain sir. so stealing. isn't that the rule of law. well i think this sovereign nation this is the point we're talking about to some of the nations that should through a mutual understanding come to a result that everyone supports rather than having the truth which would be seen as and run after all the last thing we want to see is that works of art are no longer in circulation because you're interested in what i think that was going down starting when i was thinking about this planet out stealing back ought or ought that belongs to you right so i think it's i think looking after i mean looking after it you know honest and honest that if there is we're willing to accept in the
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short term. that could go to other some of the show there could be part of what changes at to really the british people's and their standing about the preparedness of the people and then motivate the active part but whether or not though i actually have i don't know whether or not that will actually happen is debatable i want to read this comment we got a new tune live keesha says it britain begins to return if the opium treasures then people would start going through the whole stash of their british empire structures and jewels they are afraid they might have little to nothing left someone else raises this point i want to bring up this is via twitter jonathan says additionally greater amount of people can see them in the u.k. rather than going to the o.p.'s and that is the idea that some have raised of cosmopolitanism that being able to go to europe to see these artifacts does them more good rob here disagrees with that he says tell me how many if the o.p.'s were allowed to travel through these in a public u.k. to view the cultural treasures that were looted from them as i know you want to get
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in here but you can see this is where it's headed what do you make of that well i absolutely mean this idea of maintaining a museum is cosmopolitanism as a reason as one of the reasons not to not to give back looted items is i think. it's a fallacy i mean i think that you're the person who tweeted was absolutely. right thinking about how difficult it is for ethiopians to get to europe sometimes to apply for a visa to pay for the cost and to travel and then to see their own items their own items that was stolen i find i find that idea absolutely repugnant and the idea that the museum claims that it needs some kind of cosmopolitanism maybe lets you know how much those museums need these items and they understand very well there is not that they they don't intend to give it back because they intend to keep
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maintain the value of their museum for other people but i do think that what chris and i truly don't hunt him yet hold on let me finish i do think that what tristan her so sad about maintaining or developing some kind of collaboration our partnership is the right way but i think that it should go the other way that it's up to ethiopia to decide whom to loan write those items to when for how long how i hope you won't mind me getting you to stand out from my because i really want to hear from f m m r a and he's the director of the national museum of ethiopia what he has to say we important let's have a listen but i mean if i look at it that if you have a we have a lot of written documents that show they carried out a planned to a store and organizing the looting in morocco and we also sent that these treasures are in the british museum to look at them it is clearly no from where these treasures came and to whom they belong to our main question which has never been to
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have them long ago ethiopia's position has always been the restoration of those legally the glue treasures for not to borrow so it would have been i took them to molest your stress out of society for you you and. doesn't sound like there's much room for negotiation there from the director of the national. and every time this issue is raised it pains me but it's important to keep this conversation alive and bring awareness to this injustice will continue our conversation but online with. thank you so much for being part of our program today we will. see you next time. the facts. on the planet could soon be lost.
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