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tv   NEWSHOUR  Al Jazeera  August 4, 2018 5:00am-6:01am +03

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climate change research of said continuing with economic growth over the coming two decades is incompatible with meeting our international obligations of climate change well there's a whole literature which obviously haven't cited or perhaps you've not seen which is focused specifically on what we call green growth there's massive discussion around this and in fact you talk about china india china is quite a leader head in terms of trying to we of course there have you been there recently beijing has more solar panels than most of the other countries and they are i mean i could go as environmental protection index made formulated by yale university puts china hundred twenty out of one hundred eighty countries in the world this and china is the second largest economy in g.d.p. terms it's ranked number one hundred per capita incomes terms this is one of the poorest countries on that metric the notion that somehow they should wake up and they have an economy that's functioning at the highest levels is absurd the united states even in the last twenty years they've had cities where there's been mass pollution just flint michigan is not twenty years ago where they were polluted
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water and the notion that you're putting all this pressure on china which is still a nascent economy in many respects to me is forty and russia you cited jonathan used to use my real growth i'm just here to order green. in your book you don't advocate for green growth i should do i mean i sure do many terms this time having read my book just how many read my number there is the question i would gather there was you may have just wanted to let melet is let's have a test on your book as a whole section i've mentioned multiple times and there are four times the words climate change appear in this to you in the multiple bit four times what pages out of the lot i can give you the very very large. so all i'm saying is that it's great please do. tell me now tell me now though yes what is your position on growth and climate and summarize it for as innocent a well as i said i think the framing is around green growth we have ninety percent of the world's population that lives in the emerging markets ninety percent of those people including myself who comes from africa have been assured have been encouraged that we can live like americans live like british people you if you you decide. and you can put the genie back in the bottle good luck you want to go to
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the panel on this just before i do want one last question i must ask this to you you were working at goldman sachs back in two thousand and eight tell your is actually worked there then you were there in two thousand at the time of the financial crash that goldman sachs helped cause which killed growth many of you are you really the right person to be writing a book about growth given the association of goldman sachs i don't understand the connection the question is if you work at it institution you're part of the institution that did so much damage to the global economy and then you come in and said these are the solutions for growth the biggest hit to growth came from the banks and from goldman sachs you know what you know what you're exhibiting is a pure lack of understanding on how the global economy works. so let me just let me a five million dollars let me tell you the risk. for you know many governments not just this government in this country but also government in the united states is a good example of this they have a clear and stated policy of cold housing for this is
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a policy where they deliberately encourage everybody to own a house it doesn't matter what your income is and your ability this is your going to just go down as they grow up to become was to blame we're all to blame because we essentially many armed men have a special role to play i think to put a very simple question just goldman sachs have a special role to play they paid a five billion dollars fine and said we accept institutions pay fines i'm trying to help you become a bit more educated in this appeals. to me i'm just i'm. just saying that we all have taken responsibility and you want me to give you a one liner here i want to go home and start over some of the reserves ability you know there's no special responsibility ok let's go to the panel. here to join this very interesting discussion i'm joined by. the author of the production of money one of a handful of economists the newspapers often remind us to correctly predict the financial crisis what do you when you see hear the arguments about the importance of growth as as presented by them these are both here and in the book what you have . demby so you said governments should be making formulating public policy policy
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requires boundaries capital hates goldman sachs hates these it wants to go where it wants to go where can it make the biggest profits and you are advocating essentially a globalized economy where boundaries won't matter where governments won't matter where public policy will not have an effect because markets will decide and i find that that that is a really deep hypocrisy in that you're trying you're on the one hand trying to blame governments on the other hand you are mostly in markets making the most important decisions that affect millions of people across the world but yes i'd like to respond so what is absolutely clear is that i am a supporter of this idea of globalization the movement of trade in goods and services movement of capital but also the movement of people immigrant as an immigrant however however we know that what is defined and explained in textbooks does not actually happen in real life because public policy and imperatives and
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tradeoffs and real politic the fact that especially democratic governments want to win elections means that these things are not apply in real life jamie wants with us who's a director of research instead of economic affairs the are you also a former new zealand politician philosophy lecturer david afterwards they were out of all of britain's great naturalists says anyone who thinks you can have infinite growth in a final environment is either a madman or an economist with the. internet of course not you can't have it but i really couldn't agree more with them this will be the era of globalization imperfect as it being has seen. billions of people lifted from poverty it's really been the most astonishing period of success in human history in one thousand eight hundred forty percent of the world's population lived on today's money two dollars a day or less today it's about eight percent i think and it's coming down that
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is a fantastic achievement which we should be celebrating all these funny little i mean i find it astonishing that people hostile towards the processes that have brought about what is close to a miracle ok let me bring in let me just bring in jason nichols waiting very patiently there anthropologist of the london school of economics and author of the divide a brief guide to global inequality at solutions jason i'm interested in the climate because double a very forcefully rejected the idea that there is a clash there you can focus on green growth what do you think about that for it's interesting because the only reports that were published by international situations on green growth were done in twenty twelve. sustainability with interesting is that they did not cite any substantial models to justify this idea that richer condom is can manage to grow while at the same time massively reducing material consumption of emissions down to the carbon budget or to be celsius since then fortunately there have been a number of key studies which i write a lot about and literally every single one of the models that has been developed
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shows that that green growth is not a thing it's literally physically impossible to have exponential growth of the same time as reducing material consumptions and reducing emissions fast enough to stay within the two degrees celsius carbon budget and to me it's fundamentally irresponsible to have a book out there promoting endless growth in rich nations where it's not necessary in the face of all the research we have about planetary boundaries ok what i thought was promoted and this group in developed countries that's not my book i don't know whose book that it is because it's very clear it's very clear in your book that you make it would be absurd and i mean i'm not in your book you talk about the united states you're talking about nations like you could talk about britain talking about trying to say these people are upset because there's not enough growth you're trying to say we need it and now we're going to get i'm here and i went into every building. just saying i want to be here to defend myself so i'm glad i'm here. and i don't worry about the united states growing at three percent i worry about our emerging countries i talk about this very explicitly about emerging countries growing below seven percent you need to grow at least seven percent double per capita incomes in one generation i'm desperately worried
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when south africa russia brazil are growing a one two percent i am worried that india is growing four five percent us and you also all of america in the u.k. are there as well to go on their own way only to the extent that public policy is this is very right about global warming on the show going to right on mr workaholic policy ok the most provocative chapter of your book that's got the most attention of the reviews and people read it so far is the chapter seven which is called blueprint for a new democracy in it you talk about various proposals fan form and you can you quote you say quote radical reform of democracy is needed to save it from decay one of your most contentious proposals is to have voters in the west pasta test a knowledge test a civics test in order to gain the right to vote surely you must see how tests of that kind could be deployed probably would be deployed to disenfranchise paw those with less access to education minority communities absolutely and i talk about that i mean obviously i am black obviously i'm a woman an obviously i'm from africa if i were to proport and to support types of
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regimes or systems that actually do not allow people to vote based on a whole list of adjectives race gender wealth land ownership i'd be the first person to be disenfranchised would be crazy and i've been accused of being crazy i'm not that crazy to suggest that i should not be allowed to vote you and tell you to be just to be clear as immigrants i'm sure there are many immigrants in this room they would tell you if you want to be a citizen in this country you want to be citizen in essence you have to pass the test it is already the case so i don't know if people aren't aware of this and it doesn't matter it doesn't realize that you only should i limited in my argument i said it doesn't matter what your income or your origin or your race or gender is when you're an immigrant that shows up. in these countries you have to take a test all i'm suggesting is the test is designed to to reward people for engagement you mentioned reward many people would say voting is a right not a reward for going aren't you don't think i can and a lot of and second percent participation rates doesn't mean a lot are two or three percent. across the average across europe in the united
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states fifty percent thirty percent are people who are low income we do not want that situation the idea is and you make it harder for them to vote by putting into the hold on hold on of we don't you don't understand the book once again i don't understand it because the argument was very stern as well but yeah you probably want. the i mean. just to just deal with the discrimination part you say you're a black woman from africa is that why propose a test when in the us deep south literacy test we explicitly used to disenfranchise black because once again you're not you're not appreciating what i'm trying to do which of which there are two goals number one we want to increase participation rate we want to ensure that the ideal of one man one vote which is essentially the mantra that everybody's been told for many years about labor democracy we want that to hold as many people must vote but we also want to make sure that the people who are voting have some good knowledge of what exactly we're both voting on the day after break that i'm sure many people know this apparently the most googled term is
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was what is bricks or what is. well it may be it may be but it is you know what in a world of fake news even urban legends become fact and i think that whatever the case in a world of news. and lead times because they are fact i don't mean they become true what i mean is that it goes around as you said urban legend start quoted like myself and i was very clear. i don't know it to be untrue do you know it to be untrue with certainty yes so you google did a study of thousand people. you're going to extrapolate from a thousand people to all of the people you know ok let's all be over the break so let's just say why don't we start with one of the questions the point of the matter is. i was trying to explain to you that the book is designed to target two things yes participation rates and to ensure that we have a knowledge of god across let's deal with the more controversial propose you see that don't just people should pass a test but people who are more qualified or more knowledgeable should have more vote or more influence you say quote three tiers of voters the unqualified the
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standard qualified voter and the highly qualified voter in the world of bricks and trump and populism in the far right you really think giving some people more votes than others based on education will stop populism or help populist ok so let me take a step back and explain exactly what this chapter seven is doing chapter seven offers ten proposals these proposals are not supposed to be taken in wholesale because the country sent to different levels of democracy but also very importantly they all have some precedent somewhere in the world when the world so you're picking on a perspective a point around this question of ranking voters that already exist already in the united states in the democratic party superdelegates have a bigger weight in switzerland there is a massive movement by the young parliament there to actually increase the participation in fact the weight of young people between eighteen and forty so that double the weight of you over the next people will go crazy if certain people get more power more votes than them based on their educational qualifications you know
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you think it will increase or not listening i nobody said anything about education when they get a test is based on participation not on education you're taking sentences out that have a broader context let me just read to you in context page two a woman waiting could also be tied to one's professional qualifications such as certificate as a doctor teacher lawyer employment status level of educational attainment on the assumption that excel in these domains makes one more likely to make well informed choices in the voting and once again i'm thinkin and by that i am ex explaining if you actually read the paragraph before that you'll see that i was essentially thing here is how the argument goes the argument would be that you could have votes based on education and if you read the part after that. i quickly dispel that ok let's go to our panel and you are eager to come in where i want to just to just remind the so why we have the french revolution and why thomas paine read the rights of man and what mary wilson's quaff wrote the vindication of the rights of women but i think i found the book disappointing in that it was show it's true that
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participation rates have fallen but i think the question to be asked is why have participation rates for it and that's not asked in the book instead you're trying to tell patronize the public tell them that then they haven't got it right and they need to be tested and trained in order to vote instead of asking why they're not participate in the not participating because they find that markets invisible i'm accountable remote markets are making decisions that affect their livelihoods jamie shaking his hand it's why there is they don't to be diverted by this from the idea that markets make decisions and people make decisions i think that there is a problem with those ignorance since each vote has very little influence on the outcome of the election it's not worth investing a lot of time and if it to to get the the knowledge you would need to be informed voters and i think it's very interesting there are lots of people come up with ideas about how to deal with this i'm not actually all that keen on your specific ones not all of them but i think it's
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a very worthy area of inquiry and we don't want to hysterical reaction to any proposal that it's undemocratic or all democratic systems have undemocratic elements in them otherwise they wouldn't function at all i think we've got way too much democracy you know in the sense that far too many decisions are collectivized and they're made by people ill informed and it's wonderful to see somebody trying to engage with these issues i went on for tonight obviously jason we have too much democracy jamie says there are. so i actually think we've done yourself a disservice to be so because your last chapter is full of these interesting proposals about gerrymandering about media regulation etc etc but then you give this kind of absurd because. about where the votes are which overshadows all of that and no one's talking about any of your actual good reforms so i think you probably renounce a position and then talk about the other. who would never heard about gerrymandering on campaign finance i mean i want to be inoffensive and i want to make you want to make yours i think the biggest issues about democracy you actually
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fail to address at all and that is this if we're talking about the global economy we have to look at the institutions that are governing global economic policy like the world bank and the i.m.f. which were voting power is monopolized by the us and a handful of rich nations where the global south which has eighty five percent of the world's population has less than fifty percent of the vote on crucial decisions on macro holes in the fact that i written extensively about this my book dead aid was specifically targeting international institutions and the fact that the put the policy making decisions were centralized at a particular particular place where i'm very much we moved from from recipient countries you say in the book you re critical of professional politicians as well many people and you talk about how to raise the standard of people in public office that they should have experience outside of politics of real world jobs how do you feel about the president of the united states did a look to a c.e.o. billionaire make america more stable less corrupt and so i don't necessarily like the way the president talks about women and fact i don't like the way talks about women that at all i don't like
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a whole host of other things but all i was three is the american economy is functioning this getting stock market highs all the time their unemployment rate not just for the average of the society but also for minority groups is that all time lows there are some big concerns that they're dealing with but we all have to accept that americans have made enormous sacrifices and unfortunately until european governments start to take more responsibility for what they have to pay and more generally we start to feel a bit sympathetic for what is happened to that an economy and that country i think we're being a bit too simplistic ok on that note we're going to take a pause joining us for paul to have a very lively discussion here with. we're going to talk about china democracy development and we're going to hear from a very patient audience here in the oxford union after the break. the first batch of u.s. sanctions against iran go into effect on august sixth. as iranians brace for the impact will be enterprise on. covering the story from their perspective looking at
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what sanctions mean for iran's economy and its people a special coverage on al-jazeera. on counting the cost pakistan's new leader is facing some tough financial questions will be taking a look at the economic and human cost of the extreme heat events plus china the u.s. and soybean economics counting the cost on al jazeera. hello i'm barbara starr in london these are the top stories on al-jazeera zimbabwe's opposition leader is claiming fraud in monday's election that gave president and whistle and gaga just over fifty percent of the vote lessened chimneys a says the results were manipulated and he's promising to go to court over it should be almost
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didn't get to hold this press conference on friday three truckloads of police showed up and tried to chase away the journalists who had gathered to cover it after a short delay had they go ahead chinese have poured scorn on the electoral commission's numbers and the night that his party encouraged violence there's been an attempt to try and link them to the disturbances that happened in the cities and we have nothing to do with that we deplore violence this is why we have encouraged citizens and we are encouraging citizens to make sure that you are calm to make sure that your men denning bad to the men you vigilant to protect your vote is fine as well consent this election. is a brazilian is fraudulent illegal illegitimate and got to dies by a serious credibility gap and some serious. issues and opposition leader has been barred from returning home to run in the democratic
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republic of congo's presidential elections more is it could be a wealthy businessman and former governor of the province as instead being charged with offenses against the state security the un is warning of a new outbreak of cholera in yemen and has called for a cease fire in the north of the country to allow for a vaccination campaign the world health organization wants to deliver half a million color of vaccines to the point of the day that over the next three days the part of a day that is where dozens were killed by explosions on thursday at least thirty nine people have been killed in an attack on a shia mosque in afghanistan police say two suicide bombers targeted worshipers during friday prayers and get a day as which is south of the capital kabul they opened fire inside the mosque before blowing themselves up. one person has been killed during protests along the gaza israel border palestinian officials say one hundred twenty others were injured when these really military use that live fire against them. those are the main
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stories i'm going to have more on the al-jazeera news hour but head to head continues now by. a full. english i'm here in new york city doing with best selling author economist she's got a new book out the edge of chaos. what i didn't get reading your book is that you heap praise on liberal democracy on capitalism usually want to save it from some of the problems that undoubtedly faces market but then you also are full of praise on china and you talk about how quote economic growth is a prerequisite for democracy not the other way around so is democracy i'm wondering something you thing that gets in the way of growth and prosperity so it's a brilliant question that i've talked about there's a lot of fantastic research out about this because ultimately we want a democracy that functions and survives. which is he was
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a professor in the united states talks about this is about a model that predicts how long democracy will survive based on the per capita incomes and in a country and its arguments very which i subscribe to this very basic which is that if you don't have a middle class that actually is participating in the in the process that's voting then you end up with with a very narrow set of voters and that is a system we don't want to support we want to have a system where the population is a critical mass to hold the government accountable and they've argued in previous work my book dated for example talked about the failure of democracy in africa precisely because at this point our governments very rationally are able to pay attention to our foreign aid because they don't have to rely on the critical mass at home and so there are there is i believe a very clear correlation so i know you don't like simplistic yes and no questions but are you saying then yes we clear the so the chinese model of the undemocratic authoritarian model is better for growth for the economy than
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a liberal democratic model at this moment in our history ok so once again i do have to explain there they're essentially are comparing apples and oranges the proverbial apples and oranges these are two very different idealogue. school systems western ideology puts the individual as paramount the most important entity is the individual china's model is based on prioritizing society the entity of society as the most important entity the reason this import is this is critically important is that there are enormous social costs from a model where you have an individual as is paramount many of those costs we've kind of swept under under the rug population growth so the the idea that i can have as many children as they want that's great that's my freedom that's my right i'm not impinging on nobody's right in theory but in practice we know issues of climate change issues of of of green growth trade offs around growth but also in terms of health care there are many ways in which this idea of i can do whatever i like actually does impinge on society's ability to grow and transform the chinese model
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is not at the end of the day the only model and the best model because it also has its own costs but this is the trade off that we're dealing with a little question in a little human rights abuses it's a dictatorship well china is also the largest foreign lender to the united states and so for all objects and perhaps virtual city human rights i'm just saying i guess i'm just saying that you should not exist to be very good if your living in germany is very clear let me go very quickly let me well larry larry where for about how first of all we can go into history and talk about suffrage one hundred seventy one was the first time that in switzerland women had the right to vote we can talk about the civil rights movement which is only in the one nine hundred sixty s. in the united states so that's not all get hot and bothered about where china is china is on a path it does have to do a lot of work in the democratic process it's already underway in many democratic on the way most people say it's going the other direction big problems of the first floor first of all if you go to china and spend time there which i have there have democratic elections at the mirror level there is innovation already happening in that political system and i would just relates of to into the law you've met with
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the vision here is allow for i think it's very this is this is the problem i want to avoid because we're very good at spending time talking about countries that are blatantly non-democratic will act. the this book and i think where the focus really needs to be and where the problems have come just in terms of the rise of populism and also the financial crisis these are in the west that solve the problem tell me your focus was of the worst it was the developing world yes it is ultimately because public policy comes from the west so you talk about you know not giving the west a pause most of the guests on the show actually many of them have been from western governments i've held them to account but when you say china is masterfully executing a carefully choreographed plan for growth which is largely attributable to its political system it does sound like you're endorsing the political system which is a terrific dictatorship i'm merely saying we cannot pretend that over three hundred million people have been moved out of poverty in thirty years in china the bottom line is that has been done and no other country in history or pre-history has ever been able to do what the chinese have done i don't think we should spend a lot of time pointing fingers at china you know physician heal thyself position is
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our economy is and i know but little of it is going to get in the way as i get your call i said i said our is a fundamentally without political economy city economies and police let me finish the economy and political environment are under siege right now they are in the u.k. in the us in the worst. if you i'll give you we don't have a single elise what we have is about and we have a big criminy going to let her sleep while we're on the train your level don't lose yourself voter participation rates are low number one number two money money has seeped into the political in this is a bizarre argument that's all well she jumping well that then you have to show whether good vote away then because i must give you my me money money has seeped into the political process ok one hundred fifty eight ballots agree with everything you're saying i'm saying offering we're going to show you that i'm offering a perspective that's focused on our own democracies where we have the opulence them we have a good deal of concern but then i also have a job. we've got hung garion we've got a hunger in prime minister oban talking about exactly how russia one hundred using
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forty percent of the energy into this country but this is closer. you say because of something you wrote you're a very influential woman your best selling author. reason we invited you on the show you have millions of dollars in social media when you say china's contemporary economic success is largely attributable to its political system is that not some might say that's a response to because it sounds like you're saying that's the system you need for growth is a good system let me ask lane what i think the virtues of that system are that system is a long term system we have base from the mental schism between the long term economic challenges and headwinds that the global economy is facing led by developed countries things like debt etc productivity declines versus the short termism imbedded in the electoral process in the united states have elections every two years this is incredibly destructive and creates this mismatch between long term economic challenges and short termism the political system the chinese model doesn't have to deal with that they're not seduced by today's voter or they don't need to seduce today's voter in order to remain in often political office ok let's
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go to our panel jason pickel is an anthropologist at one school of economics when you hear me talk about china in that way does that make sense the long term ism. from this argument very frustrating and the reason is because the book is basically about the value of liberal free markets and so that we need we need more of them then you go into more detail about how you know you are the new deal us it's exactly the opposite economic ideology so with the words actually do you follow most of it's quite confusing universally true. so i think it's pretty obvious because the new what you describe the new deal manhattan institute. sort of manhattan project china what they have in common they have the government playing an incredibly important role governmentally government not seduced by short term voters every two years or every electoral cycle that is what they have the common things they are perhaps not an allocation decisions are based on long term thinking long term planning issues which focus on future generations and actually target of the wrong enemy it's not it's not democracy that's
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a problem the new deal happened in a democratic society so the market is not of it's not democracy that's part of the problem is here is free market capitalism which is soft. short term ist and i have already learned the solution i have a ten very nearly ten very clear problems with democracy we don't fortune don't have the time for me to go through with them the notion that democracy is not a problem is mad it's crazy we're looking at across europe right now we've got masses of populism. great own problems the fear here is rhetoric my hopes were here i can on that ideology you actually support i'm not about myself first of all i'm going i've never got a story i didn't have to tell me about that it was about that can i just add because that is at the crux of the matter he's just asked the question i want to know what ideological model she supports you know i am not an idealogue let me be absolutely clear i was and i thought no no no i care either way so none of your ideological i mean he rightly pointed out that i'm not ideological obviously a lot of the line is that there are definitely benefits and merits from the
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capitalist western system there are also very clear benefits from china jaimie democracy is a problem not a problem when it comes to economic growth where do you stand on that debate. one of the first agree with the basic position that democracy isn't required precursor of economic growth and in fact if you look at the economic growth that occurred in the united states and britain in the nineteenth century which was basically founded on the institutions such as private property in the rule of law and so on those institutions came into place in the british legal system prior to anything that we would today call democracy and then democracy came later so the basic point i think holds what's going on in china is indeed completely different and that isn't a rule of law liberal democracy type system but i think the main point is it's see that democracy is not required because the end indeed can get in the way for the kinds of reasons that the base is pointing out that. instead of setting up the institutions required for a stable and developing economy you get kind of. politicians doing deals with the
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electorate in a certain sense of the short term in ways that are destructive. a book by the word one so that i am an idealogue. i didn't say that the most popular president of all time was received held and that was because employment was high because people had jobs people had decent incomes and they had public services and they loved that and they participated and they voted what we have had since nine hundred seventy one and liberalization near liberalism is that people have found themselves becoming disempowered because there are forces beyond their control beyond the control of the governments of parliaments run fashionable it's because parliaments don't make the decisions anymore where you stand on china is not a political or economic model with you here it's a thought authoritarian it's socialist communist people are educated the people are how is that like many governments in africa that people have cared for and the markets manage but then there's a lot of social unrest which is repressed brutally by the government i think it's
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not very surprising that we're looking very fondly back in the one nine hundred thirty s. when actually the civil rights movement was just gaining momentum in the united states and yeah it's all well and good to remember those good old days but guess what people like me were not even allowed to vote at that time so i mean it might be if might it might already be in here and yeah you said it not i so there are some significant weaknesses in the democratic process this is absolutely the case i mean the notion that we can sit here take foreign direct investment from china trade with china have china lend our government enormous amount of money and then turn around and say well this is the big bad wolf and we don't want to actually deal with them i think it's possible ok let's go to our audience here in the oxford union. raise your hands wait for the work for him to come to you your experience if i can go back to the question around the way to devoting. the south africa post apartheid south african constitutional court said that the vote of every and each and every citizen is a badge of dignity and of personal quite literally says that everyone. counts no
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given the voting is not just an instrumental exercise it's also an exercise in personal self was saying that some people can vote others can vote and we're small isn't that just fundamentally offensive well you know i have a sense of what you mean by offensive i mean i'm not really interested in emotional reactions i'm more interested in something that's quite sustainable this is about engagement it's how it is that we expect citizens to engage in the process i think that we need to explore everything i was very clear that i do not think that this type of with voting works in a general election i consider myself pretty well read and pretty engaged and quite interested in what's going on in the world but i would not argue that i actually know what the best use or what the best decisions around health care system should be and i do believe that if i spoke to doctors nurses or people who work in the medical facilities they'll be better able to tell me dummies of doctors. i know which are going to say we're not sure i understand you or they want to have
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a public health care system maybe they're in the back yes you thank you from your comments it sounds like you make a you're making a very. broad distinction between governments and private companies and the free market is this distinction reasonable and that for example if we were to limit protections that that government and force private companies like goldman sachs operate like governments so it is absolutely the case that we now live in a world where corporations but not just corporations wealthy individuals are taking a bigger responsibility and bigger role in the participation of public what things were used to be the purview of only public affairs public government think about the gates foundation think about many other foundations around the world that are delivering health care outcomes outside of the electoral process education etc so these lines are certainly becoming more and more blurred i personally think that we are moving more into the world without requiring that not only because shareholders
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are demanding it but other stakeholders and communities are saying if you're going to set up a company in our backyard we want you to help with infrastructure want you to build schools we want you to invest in health care and it is in the red jacket you've mentioned this quite a few times debates and dialogues in africa at the moment when they talk about political business politics as usual succinctly put it different people are taking part rich the powerful why upperclassman are part of the conversation so what do you suggest needs to happen for africans to take back control of the dialogue the conversation and decide what happens in our countries well one of the most interesting questions i received when i was marketing did aid was if i if i were given a billion dollars what would i do with it and my answer was i would invest it all in a p.r. organization because as far as i'm concerned the aid movement has been tremendously successful for sixty years in convincing africans that they're not worth being part is today having a seat around the table they're not that smart they're not that good and they're always going to be a drag on the global economy the narrative of africa is as been in my lifetime one
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of corruption disease war and poverty over the past ten years there's been a significant shift with the arrival of china in many. other countries but the and those countries do have their issues but the notion that anyone would think that there's been a positive narrative around what the stories are all africa is just for hardy let's go back to this last moment here in the work of the policy for we do believe it can contribute to addressing challenges like inequality and redistribution. in the almost ten years since your book in regions like africa we've seen a turbo tax revenues of quadruple deaths from diseases like malaria hiv hogged and we've also seen poverty rates come down and aid has made a contribution and we have seen democracy move forward in fits and starts so the idea that you know you continue to hold those using you would actually. be even stronger is hard to understand can you explain yeah sure i'm so two things first of all i don't know what entirely know what they are some aid budget comes from but many agencies that are all oprah liberated across africa are heavily reliant on
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their government and western governments the corrosive nature of aid is around this question of democracy on the african continent we do want to be able to hold our government accountable we can do that if actually oxfam is going to solve the health care problem somebody else is going to solve education how are we able to hold our government accountable from a public policy stand if they are not the ones who are delivering these outcomes we do need to move away and i was very clear that i didn't say we need to go to zero i think there are some initiatives and there are some good things that i am i am i myself i'm involved in some aid initiatives that i think a very good a very targeted but even the aid programs to europe after the war after world war two in the form of marshall plan were short sharp and targeted they were not open ended concessions that have been very corrosive to africa not just because of corruption but because of inflation the debt burden that they've left on the continent and i will just say one last thing you get a whole list of positive things that have happened in the content of the last decade you're absolutely right they've been sixteen significant wins to the notion
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that those are because of aid i think is wrong i mean can we as i say we've had china come in has been significant investment from china were able to trade with the chinese for better or for worse and i think that that is just one. example many other governments are now going to the capital markets to raise capital so i think it is producing some help but it's absolutely not the case that it is because of the regime which has been around for sixty years going to the general about and then the lady who has been waiting you talk about the very long term view economic policy needs to take in the country in the short termism that democracy brings but we'll look at the example of rwanda what he's doing he's basically limiting civil rights for the benefit of growth in an african context do you feel that critical mass can be amassed within the middle middle class to allow for distribution of power within the economy so that. rights and progress of the morsi can take root without having it hijacked by dictatorships and things like that to get where
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you're coming from you someone it's a good thing what is doing on the growth front regardless of the political voice first i believe the what program is doing is interesting. you should be saying this is. what you think about rwanda and the government what's happened well i'm not rwanda i don't live in rwanda so it would be kind of arrogant of me to sit here and start pointing fingers at that economy what i will say is that that country came from a genocide that the world turned their backs we flew people out within ninety days ten percent of the population was massacred and we didn't really we did nothing the international community did nothing and so you know i am sympathetic to the fact that there they had a very big difficult challenge everything was raised to the ground i think that they are showing improvements in many of the metrics that economists care about things they doing business participation there are sixty one percent of women in parliament more than anywhere else in the world there are things that i can pick up
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and say that that is something for us to look at and emulated in the black jacket of your computer one of the things you do suggest quite often is actually to make man a tree. brazil it is mandatory and in fact more than twenty percent of the population does not go and vote and resents the fact that there is this policy and you could not argue that brazil certainly in the last few years has been to disengage society in any shape or form don't you think that not voting is not only a reflection of how society feels about elites and the representatives but also ultimately part and parcel of the right to vote is the right not to vote well i actually believe in the civic right people died for the right to vote and so i really i would talk about mental border but i think it's something we should explore i think it really is interesting. you know as you know there are twenty seven countries around the world that have mandatory voting from australia belgium greece many countries in south america do i think that that people the only reason
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people don't vote is because they're trying to send a message to the political class and they need no i think there are a lot of economic arguments a lot of people in the united states as you know the presidential election every four years is on a tuesday and there are a lot of people who are minimum wage would like to vote who are not able to go to vote because it takes too long and there's a process where we were able to i want to go to a woman of the book. i was wondering about the importance of voters being informed and well as misinformed what do you think is the balance of responsibilities between voters informing themselves and educating themselves and the government preventing misinformation and campaign finance reform that will get more accurate information out to the voters what is the balance of responsibilities or are they equal i think that's a great question particular in a world where we have fake news we have social media and different conduit and so one of the things that i've been looking at and i've written about is whether or not we we need some kind of glass steagall regulation to sort of this is really refers to the banking sector where we separate retail consumer banking from investment banking do we need that kind of regulation in the media so in other
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words some clear delineation between fact versus fiction i think that's something that's on the agenda right now and i would be very supportive of that i'm traditionally b.b. . see walter cronkite's of the united states i didn't matter what race or gender or war we're part of the political spectrum you were on everybody got the with this one fount of knowledge basically one point of knowledge that is the very different now we're all sort of quite siloed we get our information for where we are places where we want to sort of reinforce our views and so i do think if government and public policy actually wants to survive we do want to have much more diversity of thought and. you. find it challenging on one hand it talks about. that being a bad coach or being making it difficult to kind of create change and then on the other hand talk about trade and then you have kind of the market you know supporting people and helping to develop economies i just wonder are we talking one kind of challenging institution for another so i did it i offered five proposals
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for alternatives for aid and i again just to be absolutely clear that no when did it do i said we want to go to zero eight even in developed countries there are areas of society that are based on charitable outcomes welfare of the couple welfare systems of the government etc so we don't have to go to zero eight but we do need to think about things like foreign direct investment issues around tapping the capital markets this is just the suite of things that other countries that are very successful at the developed and developing use and so trade you're right it's under a lot of challenge and threat right now with the rise of protectionism emanating from the leading economies but i do think that we it's not just about one solution is about a whole host of portfolio of initiatives and i offered them in the book as well you're saying you didn't go to zero yes well just because you knew for a mystery there was a lot of controversy around that bullet came out the book you said what if one by one african countries each received a phone call telling them exactly five years tops would be shut off permanently yes but i didn't say that that's what they should do i said what if what if it is a question it is not
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a statement. of the final question robert kennedy famously said in one hundred sixty g.d.p. this measuring of economic growth. quote does not include the beauty of our poetry of the strength of our marriages it measures neither our wisdom or learning other our compassion nor our devotion to our country it measures everything in short except that which makes life worthwhile to do with well yes and to some degree because simon couldn't that's when he came up with the g.d.p. statistics and he had a brilliant thing he said the truth of the matter is that there are four categories of countries there underdeveloped developed japan and argentina nobody knows why japan grows and why argentina doesn't and i think that really is emblematic of the field of economics we are learning what evolving innovating and a lot of what has been said here are is food for thought is things that people are trying to really enjoy near and to improve on and i would not suggest that we should throw out all the knowledge and all the impact that was mentioned earlier all the benefits and the significant improvements that the world has seen i mean
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today seventy one years old is the global average for life expectancy with these are significant benefits that have occurred over the last half century and i think we do need to actually recognize that there have been benefits from the system and we do need to tweak and focus on improving the ones where they've been weaknesses to be the more we'll have to leave it there thanks to our audience here in the oxford union thanks to our panel of amazing experts and thanks to dumby somewhere for joining us and had thank you very much.
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hell in the last few frontal systems run from the bite and through the southeast frustrated been pretty active certainly a lot of wind kicked up a haboob in south australia the temp shown up to adelaide to twenty three on thursday then dropped diver down the fifteen mark which is more reasonable than of course those fog rain and then of course it turns to showers for a time per seeing the next belt of rain develop never come across the bottom hit adelaide droplet of thirteen this is by sunday best slow moving system i suspect so the whole lot goes across fog has been a problem in any way there i suspect is about to lift and that's more because of the breeze directions and also when you've got tropical air coming in to watch you that might still be there in the morning on saturday but i suspect it's going to be you see a day of improving with generally speaking and the sun will come out and then you should be between systems so they are squeezing you on sunday and not going to promise a particularly dry day evening oakland to be honest jumping north still heat wave
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territory through the korean peninsula and japan but this is an active area where the greenness which means rain running through down to no one home sure probably welcome rain but that's not until sunday. people of argentina have been marginalized and brought divert a culture for generations. using twenty first century tools one mother farge to reconnect to their heritage and share their culture with the next generation. viewfinder latin america discovers new filmmaking talent from around the globe. message for my daughter on al-jazeera. full of struggles at them out i mean out there they're there without any theme
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human to me full of pleasure may go and make. me funny and it was only having an intimate look at life in cuba today if you go over and i don't know what again if there was a movie again and the thing as a director would have been in my live. my cuba on al-jazeera. this is al-jazeera. hello i'm barbara starr and this is the news hour live from london thank you for joining us coming up in the next sixty minutes is fraudulent illegal
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illegitimate that zimbabwe's opposition leader vows to challenge in courts the results of monday's presidential election a vote his says was stolen from the people. opposition leader and more as a khatami is barred from returning home to the democratic republic of congo israeli soldiers should that a palestinian in another friday of protests along the gaza. israel border. and. sports as in and india play out a thrilling third. test match and better more later this hour. let's begin the news hour in zimbabwe where the opposition is claiming fraud in monday's election that gave president. just over fifty percent of the vote now says
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the results were manipulated and he's promising to go to court over it when god what has struck a conciliatory note he defended the election process saying it was credible and call for peace and unity. from harare. writes police disrupt a press conference about to be given by the bobbies main opposition leader nelson chamisa of the order that journalists leave saying they have no permission to gather the town. that can come to some zimbabweans say scenes like these reminded them of the days when robert mugabe was in power. when freedom of speech was titled and media reporting was to stick to. the country's information minister eventually tells the police to leave. when allowed to speak to me so i didn't hold back on his words if you want to they. want their.
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long and not that city. shortly afterwards the president elect a missile managua himself for criticizing the police's heavy handedness but insisting the vote was free and fair to nelson's and his wife to see. crucial role in zimbabwe's president in his future. in this unfolding future. both for peace stability you know island harare is still getting back to normal after wednesday's violence but something here that tensions could rise if chamisa challenges the results in court . but then god will has vowed to be a president for all zimbabweans but many will need convincing he was robert mugabe's defense minister during the when the massacres when thousands were killed him at a billion and the fact that kerry. was also
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some of the issues of this. it's. by and large it's cross-sectional. support him and also. to support. the president elect is promising a fresh start but changing decades of in change or patient in state institutions will take time. and when i go we'll have to persuade the international community that scenes like this and now a thing of the past so as to not promise of political and economic reforms. and. we're joining us now in the studio is about when journalist georgina godwin to join a good to see you here again the main this is meant to be the election that our should a new era for zimbabwe of rehabilitation it certainly doesn't look like it now so we heard from chimneys are saying is going to challenge the results of the selection of what's going to laos the court what avenues do you think are really
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open to the opposition right now. it would be really great to see some kind of for ren sick comprehensive to commend salute pointing out every single instance of rigging and of ballot stuffing and anything else that can be proven i mean there are a lot of figures floating around where the amount of votes exceeds the amount of voters and that sort of thing if we could have one document that had been properly kind of gone through number crunched that was incontrovertibly proof and i believe that that document does certainly shortly will exist then that could be something because that could be a basis for a court challenge of course although i don't think people have got much face of faith in the courts in zimbabwe any longer but what it would do is is. the international community who are very important in this. there was some kind of rigging it's only a very small a month remember it's only point eight percent eight percent. and so i mean i think it's it doesn't benefit anybody to crow about winning all you
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have to show is that point eight percent doesn't exist i mean even from the chief observer this is more about the election campaign even about that he said a truly level field level playing field haven't actually been achieved them you mention the international community of course this was meant to be the rehabilitation of zimbabwe getting a loan from the i.m.f. was crucial you know everything that would have come potentially along with it i mean at what point using the international community should just stay away from zimbabwe or do you think right now we are still in the balance of you know this election could still be turned i think it could still be turned if there were a successful challenge i think what should then happen is that we should go to a runoff with excluding the other twenty one candidates so it's just a straight race between the two men i feel that that won't be allowed to happen i think that if you take power in the way that this is happens that you're not likely to relinquish it but i think the other big thing we have to consider is the fact is
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is a muslim woman in control a lot. so people are saying that they expect that general challender is actually the person pulling the strings that he is the man of course who hundreds of women got the power because he was leaders of the defense forces the time he's now the vice president and the minister of defense is he perhaps the person calling out the army we don't know. is. in charge in which case it's his fault he is the one perpetrating this violence and of course we know he has form on this having ordered the massacre in must must be the one nine hundred eighty s. or he has no control whatsoever both of very very bad bad sonar is because we saw the in the parliament has reported as well that it was fairly extraordinary seed where now centuries as press conference almost wasn't allowed to happen when when the police came and yet we also have been trying to strike a conciliatory tone do you think that's to be believed at all and you think is a strategy behind it or is he just buying time i think he's probably got very good p.r. people and he's saying he's saying the right things but i mean you can sail that if
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you if your men are going around beating up people and killing innocent civilians then obviously it's not true i mean then the other thing to consider is that really has violence in its d.n.a. it's generationally in china now zanu p.f. has always operated like this and i don't know how you stop it but at some point somebody is giving the orders and whoever that is if it is the prime minister the president elect well then obviously we shouldn't trust him if it's not him well who's really in charge here. there must be it i mean you must feel it i guess and i guess a sense of the scum for it in a way that you know this was after forty years of mismanagement by god but that this was really a chance for zimbabwe to be rehabilitated to to change for the better as a country let's not forget the economy of course is still in the in dire straits i think is appointed disappointed or discomfort it is such a huge underestimation of how people particularly people living in zimbabwe people
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who you may not eat today people who have got no electricity his children can't go to school you have no access to health care all of this needs to change and unfortunately it looks like that's not going to happen in at least in the short term a move seen finance reports coming out recently saying that zimbabwe could be a good medium economy it could actually be thriving and be turned around really quite soon it can only do that with a democratic government gina got one i'm sure we'll be talking to you about the situation again in the coming days for the moment thank you. now i was a show leader was a kotori has been barred from returning home to run in the makati republic of congo's presidential elections it comes as another rival of president joseph kabila the former rebel leader a next vice president. also returned home to launch his own bid. the. boys good to be arrived at the border between sandy and the democratic
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republic of congo the key supporters filming his journey with the r.c. government has denied many johnny success to the burberry out there to be managed to get to know minds mind the police screeching forced him back across the border into zambia. and we went into exile intent to sixty enough to fooling out with president joseph kabila who was accused of trying to topple the government using foreign mass neris and later sentenced in his absence to three years in prison for real estate fraud government officials say he will be arrested if he manages to return tension is high in his strongholds. if the. election. and i will position figure on p.r. bemba is watching closely is just the time and they live in years in the netherlands ten of them and piece of is he face trial at the international criminal court for the war crimes of his reason to quit on them but also has ambitions to be
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president situation very sad and i feel very sorry for mr khatami. to come back to his own country i think this period of time is very important for me everybody should be able to participate in the election is cruisin is not government official. procedure to get into the country and he's just trying to cause trouble at the insist that he just wants to come to the capital in charge if he faces the electoral commission presidential hopefuls have until wednesday to file the documents with a commission many companies are concerned about how to be supporters react the government continues to mount catherine sorry. one person has been killed during protests along the gaza israel border palestinian officials say fifty others were injured when the israeli military use the life of fire against demonstrators tensions along the border have been growing with weekly friday
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protests taking place against israel since march the surface more than one hundred fifty palestinians have been killed since the protests began stephanie decker has more now from gaza. it is the nineteenth week of protests and people still keep coming to the scene is really the same you can see now tear gas landing on the crowd the crowds are smaller probably even less than one percent of gaza's population but the message is the same they want their lives to improve and what is different this time is the political negotiations that are going on there is a senior delegation of how mass leaders including sali has one of the main deputies chief deputy of hamas he's wanted by israel so him coming back here first time in eight years mean there are some kind of guarantees on the table that he won't be touched he comes from cairo have been negotiations going on there extensively with the with the u.n. with egypt the bigger picture is this they're trying to establish
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a long term cease fire with israel they're trying to improve the situation for the people here water elektra's city.


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