tv Dateline London BBC News October 13, 2018 11:30am-12:01pm BST
the truth and says whoever is involved must be held legally accountable. what should be the international response? abdel bari atwan, you've known khashoggi for 30 years. soa so a difficult topic for you to talk about. to be honest, as a middle eastern journalist, i am sad and scared. sad because i know the man for the last 35 years. he's very decent. he is actually very objective, sometimes he takes a position which is pro—government, but when he realised the situation in saudi arabia when it comes to the freedom of expression, of human rights, when he realised it was unbearable, he raised his voice to say enough was enough. scared because it seems if this kind... the
people who committed this crime, if they get away with it, all of us will be threatened as journalists, especially if we are living in the west. the message is very clear, wherever you are, we can reach you. this is the message to people who would like to criticise these autocratic regimes, to criticise the abuse of human rights. and we will talk more about saudi arabia, but you say you are scared. was he scared? did he ever talk to you? he was living in self—imposed textile. would he have been nervous going into that contradict? he was very nervous, before that. he felt very lonely. his wife was not allowed to go andjoin him lonely. his wife was not allowed to go and join him in the united states and to live with him and that is why. .. and to live with him and that is why... his nominee, his sons and daughter, were under house arrest in saudi arabia. —— his family were
under house arrest. they could not leave and join in. he realised that the crown prince of saudi arabia would not leave him alone. so maybe this is the reason. he was depressed. he went to turkey hoping that he could find protection there. he has good relations with president at one of turkey. —— resident erdogan of turkey. he bought a flat hoping he could settle down. he wa nted hoping he could settle down. he wanted to establish an organisation to monitor human rights abuse in the gulf region, which is at its peak these days. so maybe that is why he was killed. but to be killed in a brutal way, to enter your country's consulate for marriage papers and never to get out alive, or even in plastic bags... we don't know. turkey says it has audio recording
that proves what you are saying, the saudi government says that is not the case. they said the fact is he has not been seen for ii the case. they said the fact is he has not been seen for 11 days. we should all discuss what should happen now. what can a response be? first of all, we note that there is this week investment conference taking place in ten days' time in riyadh. it is interesting that it is civil society in a way that is applying pressure. it is not governments for the moment. governments need evidence, fine. but it looks as if something grim happened to jamal khashoggi. media partners and business partners have started pulling out of this conference, which is pretty important for the crown prince. they pulled out pretty quickly. every single one of us, britain, france, are not going to stop selling arms to saudi arabia. on the other hand, the un was very vocal about what
happened in istanbul. and so that is what international organisations of pooras what international organisations of poor as well and i completely agree with my fellow guest that saudi arabia should not get away with a crime like this. rememberjust a few months ago, this charm offensive of the crown prince in paris and london, this young man, a reformer, and then the prime minister of lebanon on was four weeks detained in saudi arabia, and hundreds of royals and businessmen are at the ritz—carlton who only managed to get released because they transferred billions of cash. this is a ruthless regime. sol billions of cash. this is a ruthless regime. so i think if a crime has been committed, yes, they should not get away with it. otherwise it will be like putin sending killers to britain. some people have already made those parallels. annalisa? this
is the fundamental question. yes, saudi arabia is the biggest buyer of weapons in the world, compared to its size. it is the biggest oil producer after russia, but does that mean they can do whatever they want? we know that saudi arabia has abysmal record in supporting terrible interpretations of islam. they have been committing horrendous crimes in yemen towards civilians. and this is the last straw. it should not be only the media partners as hasjust been mentioned that have pulled out from this huge investment countries, which is key for saudi arabia, because saudi arabia has been trying to diversify its economy from oil to something else. they need investment. its economy from oil to something else. they need investmentm its economy from oil to something else. they need investment. it is a hugely important conference in
riyadh. the media has pulled out, which is very good, but it should be government, high profile people, and the un should take action. and britain's stance? very strong links between britain and saudi arabia. there are very strong links, and this is incredibly difficult and complex for the west, which has effectively, un—american advice, has backed mohammed bin salman, and has backed mohammed bin salman, and has backed the new leadership and has spent the last year or so crawling to the saudis in the expectation... seen it as the end of the cold war and modernisation. there is now a question against that. there are questions for trump to answer, because it seems clear, and you look at how mohammed bin salman behaved, for example, very disrespectfully towards president obama in the oval
office, and he was enabled by trump to forge this great bond with him. it would not be surprising if mohammed bin salman felt enabled all liberated in terms of taking on journalists by some of the rhetoric coming from trump, describing journalist as enemies of the people and setting up the media as a target. but this is not only going on because of trump does. of course. . . on because of trump does. of course... always cracking down on dissent, saudi arabia... but taking the decision to do something so transgressive as killing a journalist on foreign soil and expecting to get away with it, then someone expecting to get away with it, then someone has given mbs the impression that he can do whatever he likes, and that seems to have been the president of the united states.|j agree 100% with iain. i was shocked
to listen to president trump on fox news saying that the crime did not ta ke news saying that the crime did not take place on american soil. that he's not an american citizen. and we have 110 billion dollars worth of arms deals so we should not swallowed this. we should actually go ahead with business. that is what trump said. so it means it is a huge encouragement to other people in the middle east to killjournalists, or kill anybody. it means money is more important than human rights. it means deals are more important than freedom of expression. that is shocking. this is the man, the leader of the free world, and we're not talking about pressure, we are talking about the united states. —— not talking about russia. so this attitude against journalists, not talking about russia. so this attitude againstjournalists, to give priority to arms deals, i think it is shocking. in europe this year,
four journalist have been it is shocking. in europe this year, fourjournalist have been killed. so we are witnessing a kind of escalation against the messengers. and that is a very big issue. i think that there is a problem in saudi arabia. we have also to denounce and to look very carefully at what is happening against journalists. because the wood moment in which you start getting impunity for journalists. .. in which you start getting impunity forjournalists... and this is happening in europe as well. we have had multiple, or gary, slovakia, countries that are normally supposed to be civilised countries that respect freedom of expression, we have had journalists killed and no repercussions. again it comes back to what is done. businesses and media companies can pull out of a conference but doesn't have to be a lead taken, then, by western governments? possibly, but the
interesting aspect of this in terms of us policy is that that lead does not seem to really... isn't really going to come from trump. but the congress —— but congress is taking a great interest in this for the reasons that we describe, because it is an outrage but also because it is an american publication involved. and there is the potential there for us policy in the region to be upended. if american lawmakers essentially forced a shift, potentially even at some point in the future it's not impossible to imagine sanctions, that runs directly counter to policy which is pursued byjohn bolton via trump of seeing saudi a modernising saudi, that has been the narrative of the last 18 months. a modernising saudi, which is through which the region can be remade. saudi as an ally, amazingly, of israel primarily to
target iran and shift american policy from the obama years. that policy from the obama years. that policy approach now has the added complication that it's going to be a live issue in warrington. —— washington. how close the us should be to the saudi regime. it's an added complication but i don't think it's going to count for anything. trump been trump, he's going to swallow that. we're not going to but he will. it's not going to change us policy in the middle east. what i believe, they should be a move from the west to say to mohammed bin salman, the crown prince, enough is enough. you must stop these massacres, these war crimes in yemen. we must respect the freedom of expression, and these countries, the west, we are coming to the west simply because we believe in freedom of expression, we can be safe here.
the message is very clear, we are not safe. personally, i received death threats from middle eastern governments. but being in western countries i feel safe and they cannot come will stop but now, they wa nt cannot come will stop but now, they want to terrorise us. they want to terrorise the opposition. the opposition living in the best. and this is the message. we must actually stand together and say that these kind of crimes are not a cce pta ble these kind of crimes are not acceptable and should not be happening at anybody who commits them should be punished. the conference that he mentioned, british and french have flooded resources into trying to make saudi the next big, open market. that is a complicated. if this conference colla pses, complicated. if this conference collapses, you start to see...|j don't seek trump shifting, but
europe might be key. a very interesting point. thank you very much on that. we will turn our attention is to european matters. some british cabinet ministers made their considerable concerns known this week about the suggestion that the uk could remain in a customs union beyond 2020. it appears to be one brexit option on the table — to give negotiators more time to work on a trade deal in the run up to the imminent eu summit. ten downing street stamped on the idea pretty quickly, adamant that it won't allow the country to be tied into an indefinite customs union. at the same time, the chancellor philip hammond was sounding pretty upbeat at the imf meeting in bali, saying he felt discussions were picking up pace, and that britain could expereince an economic boost from brexit — as long as a deal is done. iain, if you days away, that is use it. what is your reading of where we are right now? —— that eu mac summit. the usually gloom laden
person, philip hammond, is the most optimistic, and that is a problem. i think that essentially, the deal is in seriousjeopardy... think that essentially, the deal is in serious jeopardy. .. the prospects of reaching a deal? the prospects of reaching a deal on our... soap philip hammond is not right?|j reaching a deal on our... soap philip hammond is not right? i think he is wrong. the competition of the politics here suggest that theresa may is trapped in a maze. the british domestic policy is very difficult to see how she can get what the european union needs her to get through in terms of commitments on the irish border and on the customs backstop, which has become so confusing, even to the people in britain and on the continent who are writing it and conduct negotiations. the terminology is increasingly
baffling. but theresa may does not have a majority, she relies on the ulster unionist dup for her majority in parliament. and they seem pretty determined not to accept, not to swallow what she has to offer as a compromise to try to get some sort of deal through. so the politics are incredibly difficult. now, it is not impossible that at some point in the next week to ten days, there is a classic european fudge, that new forms of language concocted that allow a deal to be patched together. but i think it is increasingly difficult to see that happening, actually. is anyone else more optimistic than iain, at all?|j think optimistic than iain, at all?” think that he's onto something. i think that he's onto something. i think the european union has been
very good at kicking the can down the road and that is probably what is going to happen. the president of the commission was very upbeat this week. he said that we will find a deal. so my suggestion is that there will be some kind of fudge, this invisible border in northern ireland, there will be some magic bed. a deal will be found and then there will be peace frictionless trade, which is the keyword at the moment, so nobody wants a mess, so they will get frictionless betrayed. a long transition, 21, 24 months, and then maybe we will know something about it. but on the other hand, what is happening on saturday with the people's vote march, with people actually in britain starting to realise that it is an awful mess, a dog's dinner, and people are starting to shift opinion towards a
second vote... they are not. the polls tellers that they are. they simply don't. look atjohn curtis on this, leading british experts on this, leading british experts on this also. this is one of the most astonishing things in the web about life in britain since the referendum, people who voted leave are still broadly in favour of leave. those who voted remain are still broadly in favour of remain. there been little bits of fluctuation but there is no evidence that... there have been several polls saying that there have been a shift. i think there are plenty that say otherwise. the eu macro summit begins on thursday.” say otherwise. the eu macro summit begins on thursday. i think there will be a deal. a deal or a fudge?
classic european fudge, i think that was the phrase? fudge doesn't exist on the continent. far too sweet, in my opinion. sol on the continent. far too sweet, in my opinion. so i think there will be a deal. the problem is, the eu is faced always with the chance that something in uk domestic politics is going to derail what they are doing in brussels. that is to say, i mean, la st in brussels. that is to say, i mean, last time, arlene foster from the dup said, actually, no mac. and theresa may had to go back to london to discuss. the basic extension of the transitional period for me is the transitional period for me is the only way out. because it's included small—time for them to sit down... included small—time for them to sit down. . . and included small—time for them to sit down... and it gives more time to britain and the tory and labour
parties to sort out the mess and perhaps after march, to have new elections or leadership contest, and so elections or leadership contest, and so it isjust buying time basically for britain to find a new voice or an agreement. i'm not sure about this second referendum. it depends also on the question asked. look at the labour conference. labour does not want his second referendum, so i'm not sure it isn't answered. how many referendums will it take? best of three or maybe best of five, just keep on going! there is a positive side for theresa may to chair a meeting of the inner cabinet. definitely she has something in hand. it is not her style to call the cabinet for this reason so maybe there is some good news, but the problem is, inside the conservative
party, inside the government itself, inside this shaky alliance between the unionists and theresa may and the unionists and theresa may and the conservative party, the division here is actually causing a problem. so we don't see the whole conservative party united behind theresa may. certainly not. and if there is a deal or a prospect of a deal, is it going to last? is it going to succeed? what is the reaction of the parliament, for example ? reaction of the parliament, for example? the problem is that the week in which this has been happening, this was supposed to be sorted this week, so at that key meeting of the inner cabinet, the prime minister did not say very much. she chaired the meeting, she did not say, i have the makings of a deal here, because that is what seems to have gone wrong in the last week and which is the reason i am now so pessimistic about it, is that the meeting between michel barnier,
eu's chief negotiator, and arlene foster, who you mentioned, the dup leader, went extremely badly. the british have made a long tradition of misunderstanding the european union. misunderstanding is far use and what it is about and that is why the british have messed up eu negotiation. however, the european union seems to be making a fatal misunderstanding about northern ireland and about what it is and the fa ct ireland and about what it is and the fact that it is part of the united kingdom, and foster and fact that it is part of the united kingdom, and fosterand her fact that it is part of the united kingdom, and foster and herfellow dup mps are digging their heels in because they are absolutely furious, annoyed with the weight london has handled it, but there is no way they are going to vote for something that they see as dividing up the uk. the european union is still wanting potentially there to be checks between one part of the uk, northern ireland, and the rest of the uk, britain. and that is something which the dup is making very clear that it
simply will not vote for. before this week the british government broadly expected the dup to go along with whatever. .. broadly expected the dup to go along with whatever... that we had known for a long time that this is a problem. that everyone has been saying, it will be fudged, and the dup suspect that the fudge is really a stitch up of them, and this is the week in which they have said they are not going to vote for that. but then they could be outnumbered by labour mps voting. they might be. so then in that equation, theresa may does not need the dup any more. but thatis does not need the dup any more. but that is a catastrophic miscalculated by her because in the middle of all of this is the uk budget, the finance bill. only a couple of weeks away. which the government hilariously put in there so that it would not get tangled up in all of the brexit stuff. but then there is the brexit stuff. but then there is the possibility that tory rebels combined with the dup, combining with the labour opposition, could
vote down or amend members of the governor's finance bill, meaning britain does not have a fair man shall settlement. despite what number ten is trying to present, thatis number ten is trying to present, that is effectively the end of the government. how can we get out of this mess? it it seems it is going on and on. sol this mess? it it seems it is going on and on. so i disagree with you, why can't we have a referendum? let the british people decide. we did have one and i don't really want to revisit that. we are trying to look ahead to this week. your thoughts about it other european countries are looking in, listening to all of this, they will be leading this summit on thursday... there is boredom and irritation because in the continental ice, britain hasn't moved from having your cake and eating it and cherry picking and so there is a boredom about that. one thing that is changing and dalit i think it is relevant with the
possible fudge, —— changing and i think it is relevant towards the possible fudge, and that is something about the freedom of movement. a lot of countries in europe are moving towards a tougher line on immigration, so i think it could be part of maybe a second vote on the deal, the deal could go back to the people saying, look, we have secured maybe stricter controls on freedom of movement... that ship has sailed several years ago. there was a referendum in britain am a people... people did not vote for this mess. people voted to leave the european union and britain is going to leave the european union. on that note, that is where we end dateline london for this week. let's see what happens at the summit and see what we might be discussing around the table this time next week.
we have seen torrential and in places disruptive rainfall over the last 24 others. more today. still some strong wind. for south—east england it will be very warm. storm callu m england it will be very warm. storm callum is now well to the north of the uk but it has left in its wake this almost stationary front, going nowhere fast, more rain piling into that through the day, particularly for south wales, where we still have a valid until 6pm this evening and burke weather warnings from the met office.
the rest of saturday, always wettest be farther north and west you are. the further east you are, mainly dry, with the best of the sunshine. he at temperatures up 20 four celsius. windy for all of us. 50 or 60 mph quite widely. further rain across south—west england and wales into north—west england. more patchy in northern ireland but becoming more persistent through scotland in the afternoon. matters windy for scotla nd the afternoon. matters windy for scotland and northern ireland as yesterday. temperatures here 12 to 14 celsius. across england and wales, 21 or 22 celsius widely, 2425 for east and south—east england. very warm for october. the wind through the night working its way north. mark returned late in the night, so a wet end to the night. this weather front is still with us
on sunday, slowly starting to clear its way eastwards. it is also the dividing line between the warm front in eastern areas and something cooler and fresher north and west. more rain to come through the morning for certain counties of england, into wales. it slowly pushes its way north and eastwards through the day. sunshine already across northern ireland, extending into scotland, wales and the rain likely to linger in eastern counties. cooler on sunday. still rain lingering across south—east england on monday. sunnier skies behind and we flip it round on tuesday. this is bbc news. the headlines at 12pm: 30 flood warnings are currently in place as storm callum continues to bring heavy rain and strong winds to many areas. as you can see, the river is still a lot higher than it usually is. usually you can see about a 12 foot drop down to the river but at the moment it is almost
reaching the top of the bridge. the head of the un demands "the truth" over the disappearance of the saudi arabian journalist jamal khashoggi. it is absolutely central to make sure that the international community says clearly that this is not something that can happen. patients are urged to return crutches, walking frames and wheel chairs to the nhs so they can be reused or recycled. also coming up this hour: is it time to say "ta—ta" to the supermarket till? how customers may soon have to get used to a new way of paying for their shopping.