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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  October 15, 2018 12:30am-1:00am BST

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our top story. saudi arabia is facing growing pressure over the missing journalist jamal khashoggi. king salman has spoken with the turkish president, recep tayyip erdogan, to discuss a joint investigation into the disappearance of the prominent saudi journalist. he went missing after visiting the saudi consulate in istanbul 12 days ago. rescuers have recovered the bodies of the nine victims of nepal's worst climbing accident in two years. five south korean climbers and theirfour nepali guides were killed after a storm hit their basecamp in the himalayas. and this video is trending on bbc.com. tennis, and novak djokovich has cruised to victory in the shanghai masters for a fourth time. the serbian beat borna coric 6—3, 6—4, and is now in a race with rafael nadal to end the year as world number one. stay with us. now on bbc news, it's time for hardtalk. -- hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i am stephen
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sackur. united states of america is a republic divided, the trump presidency has exposed fissures that run along lines of race, gender, education and culture. ‘s midterm elections, the fight for political power will be between the two traditional parties, republican and democrat, but perhaps a different sort of activism is needed to deliver real change. my guest is kimberle crenshaw, a professor of law, social activist, and an influential advocate of the idea of intersectionality. is that the group, not the individual, that matters most in today's america? -- is it. kimberle crenshaw in philadelphia,
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welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. let me ask you this. do you believe in united, in the united states of america? that is a country where all citizens are equal under the law and share a sense of common purpose, shared values, do you believe in that? well, ifi believe, if you are asking me to i believe in the ideal of equality and shared values, equal citizenship, yes, of course. that is part of the current tradition of western liberalism,
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thatis tradition of western liberalism, that is not really the issue that we are facing now, however. it is a matter of whether the values that we profess actually have any reflection in what is happening in the united states, one of the things that was so states, one of the things that was so disturbing about the cavanaugh hearing is just watching the institution that is so important in maintaining those ideas basically being over, overwrought with politics, with impartial, impartiality being rejected as a measurement of qualification for judge. —— kavanaugh. so those of us we re judge. —— kavanaugh. so those of us were really concerned about the distance between the ideals and the reality of american society are really distraught at this point over the direction that the country is going in. right, and it is interesting to me that you immediately point to the it sort of toxic process around the appointments and the nomination
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process and appointment ofjudge brett kava naugh to process and appointment ofjudge brett kavanaugh to become that the justice of the supreme court, and will of course around the world watch that play out in washington, dc. and there is therefore a temptation to see that the trump presidency, with the kavanaugh nomination and a whole host of other things too, has in a sense created divisions, has sort of opened up wounds that were not there before. that can't be true, kennett? he has perhaps more brutally exposed them but they are pretty pre—existing. will, of course. i mean the united states is a country that is built on some tremendous violations of some of the very values that it is representative of, it slavery, genocide, long—standing patterns of segregation. i mean this is very much part of american history. the question is, how the country takes
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up question is, how the country takes up those issues in the current moment. does the fact that we at ape post— slave society, a post— genocidal society, a colonial society, have any bearing in the way that we think about equality, what needs to be done in order to create a more equitable society? or is that something that not only gets passed over to yesterday but something that actually is part of the idea that president trump is trying to manage and create a lot of political energy around? when he says make america a great again, many people here, again, there is this the start for the past. many people here in america, the past is the last place they want to go to. it is very disturbing to hear politics being framed as will better back when we
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segregated, we were better back when we did not allow a lot of immigrants into the country. so it is very much a part of notjust exacerbating those old wounds, but actually saying those at normatively a cce pta ble saying those at normatively acceptable in this particular period. well, what you raised there isa period. well, what you raised there is a very interesting question about the direction of travel, and ijust wonder, and very mindful of the fact that you, your younger self, was a lawyer who is offering legal counsel to anita hill in that very well remembered hearing for clarence thomas to get through his nomination to get onto the supreme court. that was extraordinarily painful and contentious, and healy at, however many years, a guest ready seven yea rs many years, a guest ready seven years later, watching another extraordinarily painful and contentious supreme court nomination process unfold. —— i guess. —— and he we are. what is the direction of
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travel? with your observations now and you experience them, what do you feel? well, it is interesting that you should ask that. i here in philadelphia becausejust you should ask that. i here in philadelphia because just last night i was on philadelphia because just last night iwas ona philadelphia because just last night i was on a panel with anita hill and we we re i was on a panel with anita hill and we were talking about precisely that is, what do we make of 27 years later, the fact that this issue is still being presented in many of the same ways to the same and? and with all things, there is, one has to look at roath what has gotten better and what has not. i think what has gotten better is the idea, would lease the recognition that these claims have two at least appear to be taken more seriously than they we re be taken more seriously than they were taken 27 be taken more seriously than they were ta ken 27 years be taken more seriously than they were taken 27 years ago. —— or at least. so we were able to see that in the way it, for example, that dr christine blasey ford was questioned not by an all—white male judiciary committee, but by rachel mitchell. i think there was a recognition that the optics were important, i think
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there was a recognition on the democratic side as well. one of the differences that i noticed between what happened with anita hill and dr blasey ford was that the democrats in this instance were very clear that they saw the allegations as credible, they saw her as credible, and they wanted to affirm her. that is not what happened with anita hill, even the democrats more or less, as i said, left hanging to dry. so there is a recognition that these are very important issues and is they cannot be dismissed. on the other hand, the endgame is pretty much the same. and as i look at what we learned two weeks ago, is that a woman still has to run the gauntlet of credibility, she still has to show an appropriate level of trauma, she has to be truthful, she can't be overly resentful or angry, it and dr
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blasey ford was able to do that. so most of the commentators, even on fox tv, that leans to supporting president trump, everybody was saying this is a very, very grave situation, it is very, very serious. so it was a testament credibility. you are a civil rights activist and also a feminist, as well of course as being a law professor. -- testa m e nt to as being a law professor. -- testament to her credibility. you bring a lot about intersectionality, the different forms of oppression, and how they work sometimes in concert, sometimes in different ways, and how people need to be aware and react to that. to put blu ntly, aware and react to that. to put bluntly, do you think america found it easier to relate to the issues raised by dr ford, who of course has a white woman, then they found it to relate to everything that anita hill maze, where she was a black woman complaining about sexual harassment from a black man? i absolutely think
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that race has a lot to do with credibility. i think that the fact that they were both white, both elite, that she was seen as more credible, more relatable. that is the part of the story that is a reflection about racial differences, both in the stereotypes that women carry with them and their ability to be believed. at the end of the day, however, we still live in a patriarchal society, and so even though she was found more credible, even though many people said that they could relate to her, at the end of the day, it is more or less that it just of the day, it is more or less that itjust did not matter. so yes, she might be believed. i mean this collins, who was, in many ways cast the deciding vote, said that she
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believed her, she believed that this trauma had happened. she did not necessarily believe she was remembering correctly that it was judge kavanaugh who did it, and at the end of the day, whatever happened to her did not really matter injudging the happened to her did not really matter in judging the qualifications ofjudge kavanaugh. so i think at the end of the day, what we see here is what i sometimes call discursive asymmetry. she had to do a lot to be credible, and even when she did all that, the burden basically shifted to him. and there was virtually nothing he could do that would have destroyed his credibility. that performance that we saw, including a loss of temper, threats to democrats, if all that was not enough to undermine his credibility, one wonders, short of coming in and blowing himself on the ground and saying i did it, i did it, whether anything would have allowed christine blasey ford to prevail. so
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it really is a recognition that there is a huge gap between what men can do and get away with, and what women can do and actually be taken seriously. yeah, it is out of course that brett kava naugh seriously. yeah, it is out of course that brett kavanaugh denies all those allegations and that was seen throughout the hearings. —— i should just out of course. but here is the basic question i have for you because your analysis of the way society works and you work on this, what you call intersectionality, it has become extremely influential across america. but would be fair to say that you see the key components in society in america today being groups, and group identities, rather than individuals? is that a fair reflection of how you see things? well, a see things in terms of structures that make your group identity is subject to disempowerment or power, so the
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entire conversation that we have been having over the last couple of weeks has been about men, it has been about women, it has been about republicans, it has been about democrats. everybody is engaging in this discourse. right, buti democrats. everybody is engaging in this discourse. right, but i guess the point would be that men and women, within their genders, have a whole range of opinions on brett cavanaugh and a whole bunch of other stuff too. i suppose the charge... —— kavanaugh. stuff too. i suppose the charge... -- kavanaugh. so are we talking about opinions are we talking about experiences? the question really comes down to are there differences in the kind of that people have, and can those differences be mapped onto things like gender? can they be mapped onto things like grace? i think one of the things that could be the silver lining, i don't know, for what happened in the hearings, it is fairly clear that men have a different range of expressive possibility, without being penalised for it. if one could simply imagine
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dr blasey ford coming in and spewing the venom and the rhetoric that judge kavanaugh did and still be seen as judge kavanaugh did and still be seen as credible, if one can even imagine it, then we will be imagining the world in which patriarchy has significantly lost some of its constraint. but that is not the world we live in. dr christine blasey ford knew that, many of the women who have experienced sexual abuse no that, as well as many men know that. so this is not a matter of individual versus group, it is a matter of how our society shapes, how different groups of people are interpreted, who is seen as of people are interpreted, who is seen as having the ability to get angry and still be taken seriously, and who is not given that same luxury. that is the politics of patriarchy playing out in american society today. and i get the sense
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not just from this society today. and i get the sense notjust from this conversation but your writings, too. you are angry. it is something that makes you angry. to change it, you have to reach out beyond your own groups, whether it be women or whether it be african americans. you know, to build a winning coalition, you have got to go national and you have obviously got to include men and you have got to include a range of ethnicities. how do you go about building those coalitions? that cooperation? to roll back for a moment and suggested that, as you mentioned, you are familiar with my writing. in my writing, the whole point of intersectionallity is to talk about the kind of coalitions that are necessary in order to realise our stated values and
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objectives. there are many applications of intersectionallity across any number of differences, across any number of differences, across any number of differences, across any number of forms of discrimination. what other points that i made ——i of the point i made ina new that i made ——i of the point i made in a new york times article over at a few weeks ago is to say that failure of a coalition between ante racists and feminist was one of% —— was one of the factors. what i argued was that there is a common history of antiracism and feminism and that's the very term of sexual harassment and the acknowledgement that sexual harassment is in fact discrimination was largely set forward by african american plaintiffs who were experiencing discrimination when they were working. there is a long history of african american women bringing
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gender into antiracism and bringing antiracism into feminism. sure there is some african american activist women, feminists and civil rights campaigners have looked at the history. have looked, as you say, at the failure of white feminism to make common cause with their black sisters and frankly, some of them have had enough. i am quoting pamela gordon who says "i find myself at the end of my into sectional feminist road". it is time to hop back into survival mode. "live by a black feminist agenda". and? there are plenty of people actually say the opposite. ifind are plenty of people actually say the opposite. i find this very interesting. folks who are concerned about too much groupness respond at
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times like this by showing there are a few different people that think differently. of course i don't all think alike. having a quote from someone think alike. having a quote from someone who is exasperated either lack of allied ship of white women is not surprising! i'm often frustrated by it as well. in fact, only 48% of white women actually believe doctor blazey ford. there is afar believe doctor blazey ford. there is a far greater racial gap in american society now than a gender gap. that doesn't mean that gender is insignificant. it doesn't mean that patriarchies isn't working. it doesn't mean we don't need into sexual politics to —— into sectional politics to fight both of them at the same time. i get the into intersectionallity argument. what i am moving toward is how you reach
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out, if you can reach out at all, to those particular groups and particularly maybe white working class people, men and women, interestingly, because let's not forget, a majority of white women voted for donald trump. is there any way that you can see that you can use your arguments and powers of persuasion to make inroads amongst those groups if we call them groups? many of us are. one of the challenges is to recognise when we are hearing the talking points from the other side, the idea that there haven't been efforts to reach out across groups. the idea that the civil rights legacy wasn't always a movement that was multiracial and in fa ct movement that was multiracial and in fact bipartisan. i challenge today is not only maintaining and building those ties but resisting the narratives that suggest that we are
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alljust narratives that suggest that we are all just separate groups narratives that suggest that we are alljust separate groups and we are not really engaging in assets to reach a across many of the differences. in fact, the last week opens up even more possibilities. everything we have been seeing suggests that many women, particularly those, that 53% that in fa ct voted particularly those, that 53% that in fact voted for trump, may be rethinking that. that's not the pie in the sky here. racism has always been a determining factor in american politics. the question now is, does group sensibility over determine everything else? including a president who many people call a predator in chief including someone who basically said what goes around comes around. these are moments where the divisions are making
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themselves so foundational that it might create more of a shift than we have seen in the past. have you feel now there is a bit of time distance between his presidency and that is an day, how do you feel about barack obama? an day, how do you feel about barack obama ? with the an day, how do you feel about barack obama? with the midterms coming up, he has entered the political framework making some or pointed speech and —— speeches in recent weeks. "this whole notion that has sprung up recently about democrats needing to choose between appealing to the white working class or voters of colour and women and lgbt and americans, that is all nonsense. i got votes from every demographic". do you see obama as somebody that democrats need to listen to and be mindful of because he had the right approach? or do you think, in retrospect, barack approach? or do you think, in retrospect, ba rack obama approach? or do you think, in retrospect, barack obama actually wasn't radical enough, he didn't do enough, to actually change the structures of american politics?”
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think it is tough for a president to actually change the structures of american politics. i have my disagreements with barack obama on a range of issues. some of them having to do with the failure to actually even have a rhetoric that identifies some of the structures that continue to create inequalities. i took issue with him, for example, on my brother ‘s keeper. it was a racialjustice programme but it excluded women and girls. but that was our minor difference within a broader reality that we are a country that shapes our sales around certain values and i think he tried to perform that. and it is true, but he was able to win the support, the votes, of the white working class, he was able to win both districts in pennsylvania, in michigan, that were really important. it is true, it is
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possible to win votes and create coalitions across race and class and he isa coalitions across race and class and he is a good reminder of the fact that this is not an inevitable dimension of american politics. the democrats are now quite —— trying to create a winning progressive coalition. it is interesting, isn't it? ron brown steam reflected on this with some figures from the foundation recently. he said democratic voters are clearly divided. he said" democrat much that was “— divided. he said" democrat much that was —— must weigh their moats at mostly secular wing of white people and the traditional wings of african and the traditional wings of african and filipino voters." in this world of intersectionallity and politics, it isa of intersectionallity and politics, it is a complex relationship and attitudes and values —— latino.
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it is a complex relationship and attitudes and values -- latino. the african american vote gave the victory to avoid more the senator who the first democrat to be elected in that area for a generation. the real question and challenge is how can we not only use black women as the wheels on the bus but how do we actually put them in the driver ‘s seat? what are the agendas that speak to them? if we can figure that out, we will probably be able to figure out how to speak across the working class because black women are disproportionately working—class. we will probably be able to build those ties that at one point made the democratic coalition winning political mobilise coalition. that is what we are looking for in this mid—term election. we will see. we will in
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deep sea. kimberle crenshaw, thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. -- you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. —— we will, indeed, see. hello there, good morning. the last 2a hours has seen the number of flood warnings reducing as the wettest of the weather moved its way a little bit further east. gradually, everything will come in from the atlantic over the next few days. this band of cloud working its way towards our shores by tuesday. that area of cloud contains a bit of ex—hurricane michael. that's going to slip its way into iberia. that's where we're feeding up all our cloud and outbreaks of rain at the moment, so more of that coming back into england and perhaps into wales as well, a cold start for scotland and northern ireland. cold skies developing here with a few showers
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in the north—west. this area of rain might not be in this exact position, affecting the south—west for a while, south and east wales, it's moving its way northwards and becoming lighter and maybe missing the rain in the south—east, sunshine later giving the temperatures a boost but sunniest skies will be further north in scotland and northern ireland, where it's 13 or 11! degrees. that weather front is bringing the rain into england and parts of wales, but as we head into tuesday, it's much lighter by this stage, a much weaker weather front. we've got another coming in from the atlantic, that's responsible for the rain. ahead of it, a band of cloud across england and wales and it could be misty and murky before it brightens up as the wind picks up, and our weather front brings this narrow band of rain from scotland and northern ireland into the irish sea. followed by some blustery showers. it'll be windy in the north—west of scotland. warm when the sun comes out in the south—east and east anglia. the windiest weather close to this area of low pressure, and that's pushing this weather front in to england and wales, but it's slowing down. there will be some discrepancy as to where it's going to stop.
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at the moment, now, it looks like the south—east might be brighter. the band of cloud and not much rain stuck across the wash into the south—west of england. behind that, more sunshine following on, where it should be a lovely day for the time of year. those temperatures still not bad as well. it will turn colder overnight. yes, we've got an area of low pressure building in from the south—west, but there's some colder air around the top of that in between these weather fronts, so a cold start to thursday and still a bit grey in southern counties of england even though that weather front is out of the way. but away from here, plenty of sunshine. it looks like being a nice day. temperatures won't be quite so high i think on thursday because of that chillier start, but plenty of sunshine to come. we'll start to see some changes by the time we get to friday. still got high pressure for a while, but there are these weather fronts toppling into that and that will increase the breeze and pick up some more cloud and a bit of rain in the north—west. this band of cloud and rain will trickle down into scotland and northern ireland. may get stuck across the far north of england and north wales later is
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in the day. further south, some sunshine after a cool start, with some mist and fog. i'm sharanjit leyl in singapore. the headlines: saudi arabia's king discusses the investigation into the missing journalist jamal khashoggi with the turkish president, as international pressure mounts on the saudis, including this from the uk. if they've got nothing to hide, then they will and should co—operate. nepal's worst climbing accident for two years claims the lives of five south korean climbers and four local guides. i'm babita sharma in london. also in the programme: could malaysia be about to get rid of the death penalty? lawmakers are due to debate new government proposals. game, set, and match, djokovic. 6-3, 6-4. back on top. the winning streak continues for novak djokovic, as he cruises to victory in the shanghai masters.
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