tv Victoria Derbyshire BBC News February 15, 2019 10:00am-11:00am GMT
hello, it's friday, it's 10 o'clock, i'm victoria derbyshire. good morning. shamima begum, the teenage girl who went to syria to join is, should not be allowed to return to the uk, says the home secretary sajid javid. he says he won't hesitate to prevent her coming here. but a former chief crown prosecutor tells this programme that the government needs a strategy to manage the return of shamima begum, and potentially hundreds of others of is fighters. facebook is under pressure to remove postings containing false information about the so—called dangers of vaccinating children, like this one, which suggests it's like giving your child a poisoned cupcake. we'll speak to a mum who didn't vaccinate her daughter, who was left severely disabled after getting measles. you don't bring your children into the world for this. i feel as if i've cheated her, because i should have known more when she was a child. i should have known to protect her against measles, and i didn't. jo says parents who don't vaccinate their kids should be fined. is she right?
and tilly lost both her arms as a baby, but now she has two, custom—made, sd—printed bionic arms. they are so sophisticated, she can put make—up on with them. she's here to show us how they work. hello. welcome to the programme. we're live until 11 this morning. is the home secretary right? should the teenager who went to syria to join is not be allowed to return to the uk? some think she could be a useful asset to british intelligence if she came back here. if she does come back, can get back, what shld happen can get back, what should happen to her and her unborn baby. use the hashtag victoria live.
there tweet says, her baby should be taken into there tweet says, her baby should be ta ken into care there tweet says, her baby should be taken into care and she should receive a prison sentence for being involved with a prohibited organisation. this one says... she should be in a program to rehabilitate her into british society if possible and her baby should be in the care of her grandparents. this one says... personally i think she should travel toa personally i think she should travel to a neutral country and she should have her baby adopted and you can then go back to syria and continue emptying the bins for them. this one says... i can't believe this country is even debating this, never mind considering it. what an absolute appalling insult to our serving, fallen and the thousands affected by these cowardly acts on our home soil. i hope britain wakes up very soon before it's too late. so, your view, very welcome this morning. what should happen to shamima begum if she does get back to britain? you can send us an e—mail... and you can use the hashtag
#victorialive on twitter. now time for the news with annita. the home secretary has said he will do everything in his power to prevent the return of a teenage girl from east london, who ran away to join so—called islamic state four years ago. sajid javid told the times newspaper that if shamima begum does come back, she may be prosecuted. her family has appealed for compassion, saying she was very young when she made the decision to leave. downing street insists that theresa may will continue to pursue changes to the brexit deal, despite the heavy defeat inflicted on her in the commons yesterday. brexit—supporting conservatives say last night's vote to reject theresa may's negotiating strategy sent a message that they would not endorse any move to take a no—deal withdrawal off the table. theresa may's negotiating strategy sent a message that they would not endorse any move to take a no—deal withdrawal off the table. a fifth of conservative mps failed to support the government. democrat leaders in the united states have reacted furiously to the white house announcement that president trump plans to declare a national emergency, to secure funding
for a wall along the border with mexico. emergency powers would enable mr trump to divert money from existing military or disaster relief budgets to pay for the barrier. democrats say such a measure would be "lawless" and an abuse of presidential power. (pres) royal bank of scotland has reported profits royal bank of scotland has reported profits of one—point—six—two billion pounds for 2018 — more than double what it made the year before. the bank, 62% of which is owned by the taxpayer, said it would pay £977 million to the treasury as a dividend. the chief executive of rbs, ross mcewan, says its fortunes have been turned around partly by concentrating on business in the uk and ireland. hip and knee replacements could last much longer than originally thought, according to a new study. (00v) nhs advice suggests patients will usually nhs advice suggests patients will usually get 15 years from them, but researchers from
bristol university found 80% of knee replacements, and nearly 60%of hip replacements last much longer than that. the prisons minister, rory stewart, who offered to resign if he couldn't reduce violence in ten of the worstjails in england, has said he's seeing early signs of improvment. but he warned some prisons, such as hmp nottingham, continued to be a source of serious concern. a new report says that five times more babies die as a result of conflicts around the world, than do soldiers. the charity, save the children, says that in the past five years, half a million infants — an average of 300 per day — have been killed through starvation, disease and lack of medical care arising from war. the worst affected countries include yemen, syria, afghanistan and the democratic republic of congo. that a summary of our main stories to dope, back to you, victoria. later on the programme we're
going to hearfrom made in chelsea' andyjordain who admits to us he lied to his thousands of followers on instagram to make money. he tells us he promoted protein supplements he didn't use and pretended to go to the gym. "you just become a puppet. you're literally like the packaging — i'd lost who i was because everything was directed by someone else." do get in touch with us throughout the morning — use the hashtag #victorialive. if you re emailing and are happy for us to contact you and maybe want to take part in the programme, please include your phone number in your message. if you text, you ll be charged at the standard network rate. the home secretary says he'll use all his powers to prevent the british 19—year—old shamima begum who ran away tojoin isis from returning to the uk. meanwhile relatives of the bethnal green schoolgirl who left britain when she was 15 have appealed for her to be shown mercy. ms begum says she's nine months pregnant and wants to come home to have her baby here. sajid javid says if she does return, he would seek to prosecute her for terrorism offences. so what cld happen to her if she comes back? let's talk to former
chief crown prosecutor nazir afzal. huda jawad, a community organiser who works with muslim women. and maya foa, director of legal charity reprieve. the director of the international centre for the study of radicalisation at kings college london — dr shiraz maher. he had been radicalized by an islamist organisation — but following the london bombings in 2005, he became a critical voice of radical islam. we also have the mp bob seely with us, who sits on the foreign affairs committee and served in iraq and afghanistan before entering politics. the home secretary says he will try and stop shamima begum coming back, is that the right approach, maya foa ? is that the right approach, maya foa? absolutely not. clearly the situation is untenable and what we need to see from the british government right now is rational policy—making that keeps britain safe and that means bringing people look, where there are charges to
answer, having british justice look, where there are charges to answer, having britishjustice in british courts. this position is a cowardly position that is not serving the interests ofjustice for victims orfor serving the interests ofjustice for victims or for people out there who may not have committed crimes such as the very many children who are currently detained as well in these camps. some people watching will think, if she stays in the syrian refugee camp, britain is a safe?” think refugee camp, britain is a safe?|j think that can't possibly be true. we've got thousands of people in camps which were not made to detain that number of people. there's no prospect of justice, no that number of people. there's no prospect ofjustice, no prospect of charges being levied, of prosecutions where appropriate, in that camp right now. we need to know who is there in order to keep britain safe and we need to bring people back in order to understand the problem, where people have committed crimes they should be prosecuted in british courts, which area prosecuted in british courts, which are a solution capable of doing that. nazir afzal, what you think of hungry ‘s approach? that. nazir afzal, what you think of hungry 's approach?” that. nazir afzal, what you think of hungry 's approach? i always uncomfortable when we think of
bringing politics intojustice system. we apply due process, she is british, let's make that clear. therefore she is our problem, she is not a problem for the syrians over the international courts over the united nations, she is our problem be the right thing to do is to allow her to come home, there be the right thing to do is to allow herto come home, there is be the right thing to do is to allow her to come home, there is no need for us to be proactive but certainly allow her to come back to the united kingdom to police and security services are very good at investigating and they will do so and if there is enough evidence, she can be prosecuted. 0n the face of it certainly there is an offence for being a memberof certainly there is an offence for being a member of a proscribed organisation, isis, for which she can go to prison. but the point is, out can go to prison. but the point is, ourjustice system can go to prison. but the point is, our justice system is can go to prison. but the point is, ourjustice system is the right place to deal with it. it is not something which i want politics to get involved with, we're getting emotional and i understand that, what isis do and have done is horrific. but we need to recognise that she is 19, she left the country when she was 15, we seem to forget this, everybody back in 2015 was
talking about how she was groomed. i remember boris johnson talking about how she was groomed. so we recognise thatis how she was groomed. so we recognise that is what led to this. the fact that is what led to this. the fact that she is now on her way or in the position she is in right now tells me that we should use ourjustice syste m me that we should use ourjustice system to deal with it and nothing else. bob seely, you're a conservative mp, you're on the select committee for foreign, you served with the british armed forces to try and destroy isis before becoming an mp, is hungry right to try and stop her coming back?|j try and stop her coming back?” think 0mri is very rightly expressing a degree of extreme public anger that somebody goes to join one of the most vile regimes that we have seen in history. i think he is exec live right in that. however, we do have a problem that if shamima begum doesn't have dual citizenship for another country, we have to accept her back in this country. so if she comes back here, weather we like it or not, she is a british citizen, she does not have citizenship of another state, so she
has the right to return. so what the home secretary is saying is simply rhetoric, as you say, if i have understood you correctly, he is reflecting the public anger but actually he can't stop her coming back? if she comes back here and she has only got british citizenship, we have to have her back. so, we have to a cce pt have to have her back. so, we have to accept that some fighters who have survived and some fellow travellers some jihadi brides, have survived and some fellow travellers somejihadi brides, are going to get back here. so we then have to ask the question, what do we do? the problem which your other speakers put is that it's very difficult to prosecute people in this country for having served in syria, because the legal system in this country finds it very difficult for us to take back people who've come from a poorly governed or ungoverned spaces. the new counterterror bill is not retrospective, therefore we have to deal with this problem at some point and for me the most important thing is that we prevent another 7/7,
another manchester, another boro market attack so we need to squeeze eve ryo ne market attack so we need to squeeze everyone who comes back for as much information as possible and the price of returning and living here in some form of peace is that they absolutely help with the authorities to the maximum extent so that we can prevent future terrorism attacks. so, as nazir afzal said, is the home secretary lee playing politics here, it ofa game...? secretary lee playing politics here, it of a game...? no. because he has just passed a new law which came into force this week, the counter—terrorism borders and security act, which actually does a very good, who is i wish we had that five years ago and his team and ben wallace has done a greatjob in bringing that into. but you have just told us that she is a british citizen and we will have to have her back? yes, we can make it difficult for her to... but if she does get back, when she doesn't have dual citizenship with another country, immediately we have to take her in. if the government does try to kick
off, it will see itself in court for so we will have a problem with her, and with other people who've done worse in. what do you think of what the home secretary said?” worse in. what do you think of what the home secretary said? i think your previous guests have really outlined the current measured way in which we should treat this issue i think what's interesting and perhaps the one thing i can add is that when she left she was 14, 15 years old, so she left she was 14, 15 years old, so she was a child that was groomed to go. and also we don't know the circumstances under which this child, young person, has now become somebody who wants to come back, what experiences she had. we know that she has watched to have her children die. she says, we don't know for sure grubby that is what she says, indeed, be and if she wa nts to she says, indeed, be and if she wants to come home and kind of face justice, and we should allow that, and she is also a very good security asset so we could use her knowledge to ensure that the safety of the uk
is paramount but also, it's would this woman be treated this way if she was a white young woman who was groomed by an extremist sectarian christian sect for example? i wonder if the stance would be slightly different. what do you think?” think there would be a bit more public sympathy and perhaps a bit less hyperbole in the public space. but the home secretary is muslim?” think he chooses works quite well depending on his audience, at moment he is home secretary in the conservative party. it was said... i think the hope would be that she would be allowed to return home as long as the government is satisfied she has turned her back on there idea dodgy. you turned your back on a radicalised ideology as pastel our audience about that? it was a long time ago, 2005, i think the type of activity i was involved with and the number of people who were involved
in it is materially different to joining isis, let's be very clear to the stuff we were doing in relative terms was very benign. talking about saying things in mosques, not travelling abroad, not engaging in any of that. absolutely. i don't wa nt any of that. absolutely. i don't want anybody to think there is any comparison. but you believed in an ideology that you turned your back on so it can be done? of course people can change their ideas all the time, young people in particular are searching for identity and meaning, that was clearly a driver for many young people who travelled off tojoin isis, who participated in the syrian conflict, fighting with other groups as well, notjust islam extent. source because a lot of those drivers which affect many young people are prominent and present in those who also travelled to this group. the home secretary said he will do what he can to stop her coming back, if she does return. he said he will seek to try her and prosecute her for terrorism offences. is that the right approach? of course, ithink
eve ryo ne approach? of course, ithink everyone who has travelled out of their should face terrorism charges, we re their should face terrorism charges, were they to return to the uk. 0ne of the things, and i are not advocating this but it is worth conveying what the government's anxieties are on this, is that there we re anxieties are on this, is that there were real fears, and anxieties are on this, is that there were realfears, and i encountered this in my discussions with government, that they are worried about the admissibility of various types of battlefield evidence in british courts, for example, we have lawyers here who can talk on this with more authority but there are certain evidential realities which mean we won't be able to do certain things in our courts. so the first anxiety they have is about failing to secure convictions. although i think those anxieties are probably a bit overhyped, because as other guests bit overhyped, because as other gu ests have bit overhyped, because as other guests have said, there is a lot of confidence in our criminaljustice system, our courts are fantastic and i think if we were able to amass the right evidence, you could clearly demonstrate these people were members of isis... let me bring in
nazir afzal as a former crown prosecutor, it is difficult to collect evidence, although if we look at the example of trevino shaquille, the first woman from the uk to be jailed for travelling to syria and joining is, she was found guilty in 2016 of encouraging acts of terror on social media and being a member of is, sentenced to six yea rs, a member of is, sentenced to six years, has been released already, is that the route you could go down with shamima begum if she does return? exactly. the evidence for thatis return? exactly. the evidence for that is relatively straightforward, in fact we have got, we know she left, we know where she is, we know what she said, it is pretty strong in my view, and i have a phenomenal confidence in our justice in my view, and i have a phenomenal confidence in ourjustice system and out confidence in ourjustice system and our police and our security services but i think there was a point made earlier on about the information she has is extremely useful to us, too. it's about keeping us safe in the future and i think we are seeing an opportunity here, sadly, 400 people have now returned from syria and
iraq, 400 people who all have information, so i think it is really important to recognise the justice syste m important to recognise the justice system is good at what it does and it will do a fairly good job in relation to her if she returns but also we need to look at how we can prevent this happening in the future. that's why her experience and the experience of others who have been there and returned is really useful to us. so have been there and returned is really usefulto us. so many m essa 9 es really usefulto us. so many messages about this continue to come m, messages about this continue to come in, somebody who doesn't give their name, they write this... is a british muslim, we as muslims have had to prove our loyalty to britain ever since 9/11. shamima begum and her friends went to syria for a romantic ideology around the views of radicals, she will be a lightning rod for those who support the alan johns you and for those who are against islam. microsoft has the far right. she has no remorse for going out to syria and she has joined isis which hates everything in britain. she will only convert more moderates to islam attacks here in britain. what do you think? it is clearly a
really difficult topic but i think we have to look at these cases as a whole, we've got a british justice system which can deal with cases of extreme terrorism, fickle cases where necessary. this is a young girl, we don't know much about her case, we need to understand that and what we need in this country is better understanding from the perspective of keeping us safe and also from the perspective of tolerance, better understanding of the factors in play. if she was a victim of grooming, that is a very, very specific set of vulnerabilities at play. huda jawad, do you understand that sentiment from that e—mail? understand that sentiment from that e-mail? absolutely and i think it is testament to the times that we live in today, where in fact anything that can be used to perpetuate hate and prejudice will be. but unfortunately we can't make victims of grooming just a collateral damage in that situation. what we need to
do is enable this person to face justice. but also, if she talks so callously about the issues that she is faced or been in, perhaps that's because she was suffering from post—traumatic stress disorder or other kind of shock or postnatal depression so... on the subject of grooming adhered was talked about on our program 24 hours ago, a former metropolitan police officer said he believed she was a victim of grooming, there is woodhouse, was a victim of grooming in rotherham, has been on our program a number of times, as you know well, miss woodhouse has said, what happened in rotherham and rochdale is completely different to teenage girls joining is and shouldn't be compared...” mean, the circumstances are different but i think the process and the procedure is very similar, it happened in gangs, young women when they joined it happened in gangs, young women when theyjoined gangs, it happened with sexual exploitation. how do you respond to that designer by agree with what has been, you can't equate
what happened to sammy woodhouse with what happened to her but process is the same, it's the minute elation of vulnerable young people, using the triggers you've got there buttons to press, in order to grab them, take them and ultimately use them, take them and ultimately use them and abuse them. i said regularly that the process of grooming for ideology, for sex, for organised crime, is the same. but with sammy woodhouse you cannot, say it is the same thing — but the process is the same. bob seely, a couple more messages from people watching. this one says... on no account should this woman be allowed into the uk, she is guilty of treason. putting her in prison gusts law—abiding, ha rd—working taxpayers a lot of money each year. she has no compassion or regret, she just wants an easy life because she things we area an easy life because she things we are a soft touch. does she care about her kids aperture is the father, where is he, he is still in isis? this one says, she has shown no remorse, i think the only reason she wants to come here is to give birth, why should we pay for that? bob seely, i wonder how many british
citizens current or ex—isis supporters or fighters might there be who want to return to britain? hundreds. i think the armed forces thought there were about 1000 isis fighters, plus others. we think between 10% to 20% of them were killed on the field of battle, which leaves several hundred. some of those are going to be stripped of their citizenship if they have a second citizenship. however there are going to be people who will have the right of return weather we like it or not and i have a lot of sympathy with the views of the people you just read out but the legal reality is, she comes back with a passport and if she has no other citizenship we will have to ta ke other citizenship we will have to take her back. and what will happen to her unborn baby? you look at the french model, they take the children but not... i think legally we can't do that so we have to put them through a d radicalisation program and as your other speakers have
said, the most important thing now is to prevent future attacks are. cani is to prevent future attacks are. can i respond to one thing, a criticism of sajid javid, saying he picks his identity. actually sajid javid was speaking as a british patriot and showing his anger, weather he is a moderate muslim or a moderate christian really doesn't matter because isis hated moderate muslims more than anyone else. what you say to that is a net from experience we know that he doesn't identify with the religious sentiments and he... at no point did he say he was muslim until he came into power. it is an unborn baby, this will be a british citizen, she is british, her child has a right to british nationality, it's unfathomable to me that we will be condemning an unborn child, we can't say that that child is guilty of whatever we might now condemn the mother of robbie and to the french point, initially there was discussion of separating children from parents but now, they've
committed to bringing back 130 of their french nationals who are currently detained in syria. we had guantanamo, a foreign policy disaster which does not serve the interests ofjustice, which gusts much much more and has taken 17 years and we have not really achieved any form ofjustice, summary achieved any form ofjustice, summary executions, or handing over to president assad, leaving them there, where we don't know what will happen to them... so really the only sensible option is bringing them back. and we absolutely have to treat children humanely and really dig into the motivations and reasons why we are in this position so that we don't see a repeat. all of you, thank you very much for coming on the programme. still to come.... we'll speak to 13—year—old tilly — when tilly was a toddler she nearly died from meningitis and lost her arms — now she has these amazing bionic arms which she uses for all manner of everyday tasks, to do her homework, brush her teeth, and
even paint pictures. we will talk to her later. and do you have a child who is walking out of class today to protest against climate change? do you support those who are? we'll be speaking to four children from across the uk and ireland who are on strike today. facebook has been under increasing pressure this week to remove anti—vaccination groups, which are on the rise, spreading false information about the dangers of life—saving vaccines and promoting unfounded alternative treatments. so—called anti—vaxxers are operating on facebook in closed groups, where members have to be approved in advance. by barring access to others, they are able to post inaccurate information without challenge. some examples include... this post on an american anti—vaccination group which claims among other things that recently vaccinated children are far more of a threat to vulnerable children than those who have
not been vaccinated. this post was on a uk anti—vaccination group — it's a warning about flu vaccines and what they supposedly include and it claims that they are "poisioning" children. this post was on the same facebook group, likening vaccinating to giving your child a cupcake with poison in it. the world health organization lists with poison in it. or reluctance to vaccinate, as one of the top 10 global health threats in 2019. cases of measles worldwide have risen 50% globally in the past year and the who says misinformation over vaccines is partly to blame. lottie daley has three children, and partially vaccinated her first child but after she fell ill she has decided against vaccination. she's a member of various anti—vaccination groups on facebook.
let's speak to jo walton whose daughter sarah was left severely disabled when the measles virus returned 24 years after her initial childhood infection. jo believes parents should be fined for not vaccinating their children. and dr heidi larson is from the london school of hygiene and tropical medicine. she s a professor of anthropology, and director of the vaccine confidence project. welcome all of your. let me talk to you first of all, if i may, lottie daley, public health england, the nhs, the world health organisation and leading medical experts also vaccinating your children is the safe and responsible thing to do, why are you ignoring them? i'm not ignoring them as such, i think it's really important to have this discussion. parents are not having
this discussion, we are routinely shutdown from having this discussion. there are hundreds of thousands of children who are injured or damaged by vaccines, of whom nobody listens to. this is why we have groups who then have regional groups, some are closed to majority are opened, in order to be able to discuss things like this with other parents to try to get to the bottom of what has happened to our children. it'sjust not true that they're being damaged. and those organisations are... they are being damaged. those organisations would say the safe and responsible thing to do is to have your children vaccinated, and you are ignoring them, your older child is partially vaccinated, you decided against it for your younger two...” vaccinated, you decided against it for your younger two... i do not trust in them whilst we have a non—robust safety system for children who do have adversary actions of. every drug has an adverse reaction. it's silly to say
that vaccinations do not have risks, they do, and those risks are large for some children and there is no safety net from the government tenable safety net from the government te na ble let safety net from the government tenable let me bring in dr heidi larson, what do you say to lottie daley and parents like her? well, i think the main thing is, there's the most incredibly extensive safety around vaccines to processes which go around vaccines, the reason it takes quite a while between when they are developed to when children actually get them is because the syste m actually get them is because the system has become more and more and more robust around safety, frankly partly because of the public crying for this. but it's always been that way from a safety perspective, because the government frankly is accountable and if it is recommending and requiring in some senses these vaccines, it's not in the interests of the government or the interests of the government or the producer to be recommending something that's going to cause any
damage. should facebook take these private groups down? desk the issue with facebook is a difficult one because on the one hand they are being called to not dig into people's personal areas and then on the other hand, to take things down. i do from a public health perspective, as we saw in the letter to mark zuckerberg, that this is something in the league of hate crimes and other things where misinformation is being propagated. fake news. could you explain what happened with your daughter? my daughter sarah, had just turned 40 a couple of weeks ago. for the last 14
years of her life she has been unable to move all speak and has received all of her nutrition and medication down a tube. her life before that for the previous 25 years was normal, energetic. she was very committed young woman, she was a lady with a great social conscience, she was a force for good in the world and she worked really, really ha rd in the world and she worked really, really hard towards a life where she would be committed to helping others. at 11 months old, she had measles. she was a normal, healthy baby before that and she was a normal healthy child afterwards. but we had no indication after her initial measles infection, that anything further was going to happen. but it did. the point is,
you didn't vaccinate your daughter, sarah? sarah was too young to be vaccinated at the point of which she had measles. at that stage, in the early 1980s, the vaccination for measles was usually an individual one and at the age of three. so sarah wasn't old enough to have been vaccinated. she did, however, attends a nursery where there were clearly other children who hadn't been vaccinated from whom she contracted the measles infection in the first place. we don't live as individuals, we interact with other people. the decisions we take for our own children impact on other children and vulnerable adults which
those children come into contact with. measles is not a benign childhood illness. it's not something you get over and you can think, that's it, it's over with now, we don't need to worry about that again. it is evil and it can come back and it can rob people of the lives they have worked really ha rd the lives they have worked really hard towards having. now i understand where lottie is coming from in terms of her concerns about maybe there will be adverse reactions to injections or inoculations. but what we need to do is trust the medical profession and talk to the medical profession about whether the child we have may be at risk and may full into the category of children who cannot have injections. but other than that we have a responsibility, notjust to our children but to all the children
that child is going to come into contact with. just respond to that, the responsibility to other children. you cannot catch measles from a child who does not have measles. to say and unvaccinated child is more likely to give you something is not true. if you don't have the illness, you cannot pass it on. but the mmr has life components and in the paperwork for the mmr, it says don't go near people for a certain amount of time because you are shedding a live virus.” certain amount of time because you are shedding a live virus. i am going to interrupt... lottie, on that point, i am going to bring in doctor larsson on that point because she was raising her eyebrows when he was saying that. he was spreading misinformation, that could be the reason why. i am not spreading anything, iam reason why. i am not spreading
anything, i am looking for the information to make a confident vaccine choice and i cannot find it. all i am getting is insults and mockery. lottie, the reason you may be not seeing as much measles is because the vaccination has saved millions and millions of lives around the world. the number of people who are not vaccinating now has people who are not vaccinating now ha s a llowe d people who are not vaccinating now has allowed nearly 85,000 cases of measles across europe, 1000 in the uk. the sense of irresponsibility in thatis uk. the sense of irresponsibility in that is stunning. you cannot catch measles if i don't have it. how can i give someone measles if i don't have it. someone has to have it. we are a community and if somebody has the measles... don't speak over each
other. lottie, don't speak over each other. lottie, don't speak over each other. doctor larson, finish and i will come back to you, lottie. we don't live in a bubble and that is true more and more. unless we stay home on facebook and don't go out and interact, which i don't think is and interact, which i don't think is a healthy way for the world to go, there is measles circulating. if you have 85,000 cases across europe, you don't have to go far that the possibility that somebody has measles comes. what is concerning for the children who are not responsibly vaccinated, if they get it when they are teenagers or young adults because their parents have not vaccinated them, it is much more dangerous... as in joe's daughter's case? exactly. if you are 15 and 15 years ago or 12, depending on the age of vaccination, your child was
unvaccinated, they can be interred by measles. lottie, final word? unvaccinated, they can be interred by measles. lottie, finalword? what about the parents who do have children who have suffered adverse reactions. start listening to them. 0k, final word to usejo, if i may? how you rationalise what has happened to your daughter, because i know you feel that she has been cheated in a way? sarah has been cheated. sarah has been cheated because as a young mum myself, i was not aware of the risks that measles cause. had i stood more —— understood more about measles at the time andl understood more about measles at the time and i knew there was an infection around the nursery, i would have made sure sarah wasn't in the nursery, to avoid her
contracting it at such an early age. the measles infection stayed with sarah, this is the nature of sspe. it doesn't leave, it stayed in sarah's bloodstream. at some point in the future, nobody understands why, it came back and attacked her brain. she had so much potential and now she has her life destroyed and the lives of those around her have been severely affected as well as a result. ok. it is so importantly vaccinate this horrible disease off the planet. this tweet from samantha says not vaccinating your child is irresponsible. it is a privilege to
live in a country with publicly funded access to vaccines. julie says, iam funded access to vaccines. julie says, i am annoyed at the comments from the young mother who refuses to vaccinate her children. i believe it isa vaccinate her children. i believe it is a form of child abuse. bill says any group spreading false or misleading and dangerous information should be banned by facebook and that should be the anti—vaccination groups and any religious groups are promoting false ideas with no evidence. thank you for those. a former made in chelsea star has told us exclusively how he used to lie on social media to sell products. andyjordan promoted things like teeth whitening and protein supplements which he never actually used, he was even offered money to have liposuction and document it on social media. he has spoken out about his life as a social media celebrity because he s worried about the effect its having on young people. he says that pushing out a fake and filtered life made him feel like a commodity and not a person. 0ur reporter catrin nye spoke to him. andyjordan has a chain of clothes
shops, and is a singer—songwriter. his fame started, though, with the tv series made in chelsea. it was overnight instant fame. hello! before i went on tv, i didn't have a twitter account or an instagram account. and then it kind of became a thing, and overnight there were hundreds of thousands of people watching what i was doing, and that was literally overnight. for a start, you feel great. like, you literally feel high on life, because it's like, everybody wants to know me. everybody wants to follow me and talk to me, and you kind of, that's almost like a drug. it wasn't long before andy got approached by brands to start promoting their products on his growing instagram page. so the way it works is you will have an e—mail address on your instagram which will connect to your management, then your management will negotiate with the brand, and then they will work out a fee, and then you'll get paid once you post at the right time
on the right day. and so it's brought to you, and they say, we want you to do this, and obviously the management want you to do these things, because they make money off it. they get a 20% cut of everything that you do. i was literally told to do it. and i was approached by, like, teeth whitening brands or protein companies. what are the most controversial things you've been asked to advertise? i've been asked to have cosmetic surgery before. i've been asked if i will have liposuction at a particular clinic, and then document about the process. again, charming. no. and i didn't think i needed it. why is everyone laughing? andy didn't have the surgery, but he did promote the teeth whitening, the protein supplements.
the protein one was the funniest, because obviously i'm not someone who goes to the gym ever. here you go, look at this. jesus christ, andrew. and i was trying to work out ways of making it look like i went to the gym, and i was like, this is insane. because i don't work out. and my agent was like, well, pretend you work out. and i was like, what do i do? and i went into a gym, got on a cross trainer and took a photo of me holding some protein. how much money were you making off it? there was a couple that were like £500 for a picture. and then the most would have been like £2000, which is a huge... not a lot compared to what other people do, i know that some people do like £10,000 for one picture. it's still insane, because you're like, whatever, it's a picture, and you're like, that's the easiest money have ever made. but actually, if you're pushing something that you know
is completely disconnected to you, then i guess it'sjust like selling your soul, isn't it? let's see what the comments are about this. 0h, bore off with your...information, that company can. . .themselves. well, this is effing tragic. andy was eventually sacked by protein world. for me, it was suddenly, i lost who i was. so i didn't know... because everything was directed by someone else, buy, like, someone saying, ok, you need to do this for this, you just become like a puppet in a big marketing thing, and as a human being, you've become a commodity. you are literally like the packaging. but you don't stop, it's 24/7. you are exhausted. like mentally exhausted, and so unhappy, because you can't work out who you are. andy was struggling.
his tv persona pushing out this constantly filtered life on instagram was already taking its toll. selling stuff he didn't believe in was kind of the last straw. i lost myself as a human being, just turned into a ghost. and you just shut down. when you become a ghost, i would say is when you are really dangerous, in a dangerous place, because you have no regard for your life whatsoever at that point, because you're like, whatever. i didn't even care if i got hit by a bus. i would have been like, it's probably easier. what an effing terrible ambassador! what do you think of the whole celebrity culture that has built up so much around instagram influencers? i had a chat with some family and friends, and i was talking to the child, who is seven or eight years old, and i said, what you want to do when you're older, and he said, i want to be on instagram. like, an instagrammer. and i said, yeah, but that's not a job.
that's not a realjob. you have to do something. and that's when i was like, whoa. this culture is really scary. because there is no real understanding of how someone gets to a certain place in their life. how dangerous do you think it can be for young people? i genuinely think that people could die as a result of the phenomenon on that is social media. if you are constantly surrounded by a world that's better than you or looks nicer than you, or has a faster car than you, then that's when you suddenly will go, wow. i'm useless. and then when you go, i'm useless, the new kind of fall off a cliff. how bad do you feel for being part of that? i'm annoyed at myself for not fully understanding what i was doing from day one. some news that's come
in the last few minutes. the prize—winning author andrea levy has died at the age of 62. her novel small island won among other accolades the orange prize for fiction, the whitbread book of the year award and the commonwealth writers' prize, and has been adapted for bbc television and the theatre. a statement released on br for the family said she died of cancer. now, we're going to speak to 13—year—old tilly lockey, who has bionic arms that are so sophisticated that she can paint and apply make up with them. at 15 months old, tilly contracted meningitis and her parents were told to expect the worst. she needed ten blood transfusions and lost both her hands, but defied the odds. she's lived since without hands, but instead has been at the forefront of testing bionic arms. her first arms were simple pincers, held together with elastic bands and screws.
last week she recieved her latest prosthesis complete with pressure sensors and fine motor control. the bionic arms aren't available on the nhs right now, but it's hoped they will soon be available for other amputees later this year. tilley is here with her mum sarah. hello, both of you, thank you for coming on the programme. tell us what you can do with these you couldn't do with your previous prosthetics? these hands have a lot more grips i can do. so i can do that one. a fist and also a thumb's up that one. a fist and also a thumb's up if you wanted. if i press this button then i can do an ok sign. also peace. you are going to show us, because you love painting, how they help you to paint? yes. off you
90, they help you to paint? yes. off you go, tilley, thank you very much. how much are these helping, sarah? it is technology, there wasn't anything out there for kids and it was important that companies develop prosthetics for kids. everything was there wasjust so basic. tilleyjust loves the fact she can now do like hold something in one hand and another in another hand and be able to multitask. it is making a difference to her that way.
yesterday, obviously coming down, she pulled her suitcase what she was drinking a hot chocolate.” she pulled her suitcase what she was drinking a hot chocolate. i saw it on twitter. she was so excited because she was like, i couldn't do this before, now i can. she is having a lot of fun with them. that is now a work of art, tilley. thank you. so much easier. since the age of three you have been without arms, is that right? 15 months old. sorry, it is the last three years you have been working with the company who makes these. which is open bionic and you have helped them a lot saying this works, that works, can you do this? i have been critical to their work. this is really bad, this is really good. while working with these hands, i want them to be the
best possible they can be to help other amputees like me that could be worse off. and in terms of tilley going up, sarah without hands, what has that been like for the family? at first, we were told she would lose her hands. we had the worries of how what she was going to manage when she was older, what is she going to do. when we first got home, she went to a few toddler years where it was a little bit frustrating for her. she was upset she couldn't open a door. but we persevered and we were like, you can do this, you can do it by yourself. we try to stand back a lot to help her develop her own technique of doing things. since, tilley, she manages any task without arms. she is so determined. i am so proud at how she always always managed to
ove rco m e how she always always managed to overcome any problem. you were telling me, you don't use these at school, do you? i don't use them at school, do you? i don't use them at school because i can write without my hands and i will be able to write with these hands, probably better than i can without my hands, when 0pen bionic get an automatic rest in the hands, which they are working on. these are better than the last lot, but there are some modifications, what doesn't work for you? what would you like to be made smaller, for example? in the hands that i grew out of, so from the same company, i i've had a lot of updates. this put used to be a tiny rectangle which was a lot harder for me. most of the hands they make
other people who had one hand and then one bionic hand. but obviously, iama then one bionic hand. but obviously, i am a double amputee so it was harderfor me to i am a double amputee so it was harder for me to press a tiny little button. now they have made this button. now they have made this button a lot bigger and it is easier for me to press. the batteries are quite large, they are rechargeable? they have got a lot smaller since the other pair of hands and they are working to make it smaller because it is awkward wearing long—sleeved clothes and jackets and stuff.” have to roll them up. these are thousands of pounds, not available on the nhs. not yet? that would be the dream. obviously the company is trying to make them as affordable as possible so hopefully the nhs will pick up on them. they are medically approved in the uk and the usa. our dream is for other kids to get these
on the nhs. thank you both for coming on, really appreciated. the best. right now, school pupils across the uk and ireland are on strike. they've walked out of lessons to show their concern about the threat of escalating climate change. this day of action follows the example of greta thunberg, a swedish schoolgirl who has been protesting outside her country s parliament since august. we can speak now to four pupils who have been inspired to take action. flossie donnelly, who's 11 and is in dublin. ruth beatty, who's 15 years old, who's hoping to make her town newbury carbon neutral. ping ping singh, who's 8 and is one of the only pupils in her school going on strike. why have you walked out of school?
we need to reduce co2. why have you walked out of school? we need to reduce c02. do you think by being out of lessons you will draw attention to what you want? yes. how many other peoples in your primary school are doing the same as you today? no one. it isjust you? yes. what do you feel about that? it is their choice and they can do what they want to do. you have written a letter to adults about this and hopefully you can read it to us.” don't think we have it now. that is such a shame. flossie in dublin, how are you? great, how are you? looks like there are a few of you there? this is the whole school. what have
the teacher said? the teachers are happy we are doing it. what is your message to politicians? the children know what is going on and we know our future is at risk and we don't wa nt our future is at risk and we don't want our future to be at risk. of course, do you think the politicians will take you seriously as perhaps they should? i really hope so and i believe they will. let me bring in ruth, how are you? i am fine thanks. this is the first time you have done anything like this? the first time i have been on tv. i meant direct action? first strike i have done, yes. why now? we are living in a time where climate change is the critical issue and we have got 12 years to take measures to halt temperature increases before it
becomes irreversible. so we need to show the government what the young believe and get them to start taking immediate action. what do you say to those that being in lessons is more important at your age right now?m the grand scheme of things, missing a lesson or one day of school in order to help the environment and future is not going to make a difference to our education. i think the experience itself is very educational. i tried to get ping ping to read her letter but we didn't give her enough notice. floss i e, didn't give her enough notice. flossie, you have a song you want to sing, buti flossie, you have a song you want to sing, but i will not put him under pressure, if you do not want to, it is fine. #so
# so for the first time here at number ten. # for the first time in history... # for the first time in history... # the kids are saying no. well done, floss i e. # the kids are saying no. well done, flossie. it's raining what? it is raining heat. of course it is. ping ping, you are cross with some of the people who turn up at your school in their big 4x4 cars, is that right? yes. who is turning up in those big cars? mrs ballard. i didn't know you are going to name a teacher. but hopefully she will be listening and taking account of what you said. thank you so much ping ping, flossie
and ruth, we really appreciate it. bbc newsroom live is next, have a good weekend. good morning, a mild day ahead for the vast majority. after a chilly start with fog around. lingering fog patches across southern counties of england but they will clear over the next hour or so. plenty of sunshine everfor england, next hour or so. plenty of sunshine ever for england, wales, next hour or so. plenty of sunshine everfor england, wales, eastern scotland. sunshine in eastern scotla nd scotland. sunshine in eastern scotland turning hazy. the wind is the strongest here but it is a southerly air flow, hence we have seen southerly air flow, hence we have seen those temperatures rocket after
a frosty start. widely into the mid teens, we could see up to 17 degrees across shelter part of england and wales. easy in the west tonight, more in the way of rain across northern parts of scotland for a time and a few showers elsewhere. dry for many with cloud in the forecast at times but it shouldn't be as cold as last night. any frost will be limited. into the weekend we continue with the mild story. get increasingly breezy into sunday. goodbye for now. it's 11am, and these are the main stories this morning: the home secretary says he will do
everything in his power to prevent the return of shamima begum, the british teenager who fled to syria to join the islamic state group. president trump says he'll declare a national emergency to secure funding for his border wall with mexico. but democrats say they could take legal action. did i say i was filing a legal challenge? i make we will review our options. but it is important to remember that when the president declares this emergency, first of all, it is not an emergency. uk retail sales bounced back in january, rising by one percent on the previous month