tv Victoria Derbyshire BBC News February 20, 2019 10:00am-11:01am GMT
hello, it's wednesday, it's ten o'clock, i'm joanna gosling. lawyers for the family of the east london teenager who who went to syria in 2015 to support the islamic state group say she's been left stateless by the decision to strip her of her british citizenship. her family say she'll appeal. do you think that the home secretary was right to take her citizenship away? do get in touch. an eighth labour mp —joan ryan — has resigned from the party to join seven other backbenchers as a member of the new independent group. and there are reports that some conservatives, who are unhappy with theresa may's brexit strategy, could be about to defect too. here at westminster, more drama, drama, drama, a clutch of tories seemingly poised to jump ship. they
blow to mrs may, and potentially a big boost for the independent group —— a blow. britain's largest teaching union has told this programme exclusively, that it's against a proposal to make teachers criminally responsible for failing to report it, if they think one of their students is about to be subjected to a forced marriage. i was 11 years old and i found out that my parents wanted me to get married to my cousin in another country. the national education union says if students think teachers will have to report them orface being criminalised, it'll put them off asking for help. hello, welcome to the programme. we're live until 11 this morning. police in greater manchester investigating racist grafitti which was painted on the front door of a flat in salford say
this morning they've arrested a 54—year—old man. jackson yamba and his ten—year—old son, david, live in that flat and they're here in the studio. do you think racism is still a big problem in this country in 2019? have you been targeted in a similar way to jackson and david? do get in touch on all the stories we're talking about — use the hashtag #victorialive. if you re emailing and are happy for us to contact you — and maybe want to take part in the programme — please include your phone number in your message. if you text, you ll be charged at the standard network rate. here's annita mcveigh with a summary of the day's news. morning. thank you very much. the family of an east london teenager who went to syria and joined the islamic state group say they plan to challenge the move to strip her of uk citizenship. herfamily have her family have insisted she does not have dual nationality and to all practical purposes, she has been
made stateless. she left her home in east london four years ago and has recently east london four years ago and has rece ntly ha d east london four years ago and has recently had a baby and wants to return to the uk. the former independent reviewer of terror legislation said it could be a lengthy legal process. it is a complex issue and could run for a very long time through the courts andi very long time through the courts and i suspect the result is going to be that she is going to stay where she is the maybe two years at least. an eighth labour mp has resigned from the party. joan ryan said she was horrified by the leadership is that failure to deal with anti—semitism. the leadership is that failure to deal with anti-semitism. the labour leader has repeatedly insisted he is dealing with anti—semitism within the party. speculation is mounting three pro—eu conservative mps could effect of the group. theresa may travels to brussels this afternoon for talks with the president of the european commission jean—claude juncker to try to resolve differences over the
irish box —— backstop. brexiteers fear it could track the uk in endless negotiations. jean—claude juncker has said the discussions will be friendly but he does not expect a breakthrough. sainsbury‘s and as the merger could be in jeopardy after analysis from the competition and markets authority —— and asda merger. the cma said ways to address concerns could include forcing them to sell a significant number of stores or off—loading one of the brands. a us —based organisation that campaigns for lgbt sportspeople has cut links with tennis legend martina navratilova over comments she made about male to female transgender athletes. she wrote it was cheating to allow transgender women to compete in women's sport as they had unfair physical advantages. athlete ally
said it perpetuated myths and was transphobic. research shows 40% of companies have a wider gender pay gap this year than they reported last year. firms with more than 250 mps are legally obliged to disclose the difference in average pay received by male and female staff annually. so far more than 1000 organisations have done so with banks recording the biggest discrepancies overall. the no—fly zone for drones around airports is to be extended following the disruption at gatwick in december. from the 13th of march, it will be illegal to fly a dry within three miles ofan illegal to fly a dry within three miles of an airport rather than the current 0.6 mile exclusion zone. the government says it wants police to have stop and search powers to tackle growing misuse. that is a summary tackle growing misuse. that is a summary of the main news today. what do you think about the news shamima begum has been stripped of her
citizenship by the home secretary? let us know your thoughts. also what is going on with politics with the launch of the independent group in parliament, eight mps have left the party, labour mps, parliament, eight mps have left the party, labourmps, and parliament, eight mps have left the party, labour mps, and there are reports three tories will do the same later. possibly at prime minister's questions, which will be dramatic. let us know your thoughts. all the usual ways of getting in touch. tax will be charged at standard network rates. the family ofan standard network rates. the family of an east london teenager who joined the islamic state group in syria say they have planned to challenge the move to strip her of her uk citizenship. shamima begum's lawyer insists she doesn't havejoint bangladeshi citizenship so she would be left "stateless". so can people who've gone to live under is really be deradicalised and rehabilitated — and so be allowed to come home? i've been talking to samuel wendt.
he's 25 — he converted to islam as a teenager and was radicalised online. in 2014, he lied to his family and left his home in germany secretly to go to syria to live under the so—called islamic state. he claims he neverfought while he was there, and only went because he wanted to live in the so—called caliphate. after three months, he escaped and went back to germany, where he was questioned and charged with taking up relations with a terror group, but found not guilty. he is now living freely in germany. although he is under surveillance. i started by asking him his reaction to the fact shamima begum wants to come home but hasn't really shown any remorse. people make mistakes and she had to have a new chance to live in britain. i don't know. she was 15 years old. she went to syria a little girl, so, yeah, she leaves herfamily and, please, let her a chance to come back to britain, i think, yeah. shamima has said that she saw videos of beheadings before she went to syria.
the same with you. you were well aware of the atrocities, the violence being committed by is fighters before you went. why did you go, knowing what was being carried out? i was not... my plan was not tojoin is. my plan was to help people, i think. you come to is and it was not my sense to fight for is or to kill people because i know what is do and what they have done to innocent people. if i knew there is no help for innocent people, yeah, i try to come back to germany. some will say, though, that people like you, people like shamima going actually provide support for what they are doing.
you become, effectively, recruiting sergeants for is. it was not my plan to support is but i know how they use kids, how they use people as propaganda to call the people tojoin is. shamima begum has said that the justification for the manchester bombings is that it was fair retaliation for women and children being bombed in syria. how do you see something like that? it is a big mistake because what do the people have to do with people in syria? i don't know. i think violence is not the answer to solve the problems of the world. do you understand the concerns that those who do not want shamima begum to come back into this
country have, that she is an apologist for is, that you were, are, an apologist for is and, therefore, should not be given a chance to come back and live in the country that you both left? i understand people who don't want to see shamima in britain, but, yeah, i don't know. she was a girl as she goes to syria, she made the decision to leave her family. yeah, like i said, people make mistakes and let her a chance to come back and to show that she has improved her life. how could she show that? explain what it has been like for you since going back to germany. i think the media want to know everything about her, so she can use the chance to explain
to the media what they have done, so that people can understand her, maybe. for myself, i can say that ijoined counselling services in berlin with some families who had also lost their sons or children in syria. so she can show that she wants to do something good for other families. you have said that she should be given a second chance. there are those who lost people in the manchester terror attacks who absolutely do not think she should be given a second chance. what would you say to the parents of those who lost children in the manchester bombings? yeah, it is a hard thing. i don't know.
shamima was a girl and i think shamima was not the terrorist who made attacks in manchester. yeah, maybe shejoined is and... but that is not the solution of the problem, i think. shamima is a mother now. she loses two sons and she had a very hard life, hard experiences in syria. she needs her family and i think the only thing to make her life better is to give her a second chance. do you live completely freely? do you know, are you monitored by the authorities, by the security services? yes, i think so, i think so. sometime after terrorist attacks, sometimes the police call me by phone and ask me where i was at the time
from the attacks. so, yeah, it is not being nice... it is not a nice turning back to my past, but, yeah, i think it is normal work for the police to... searching for the people who joined is and to stand for the security of the people in this land. he left his home country of germany to go to syria to live alongside is. we can now speak to dal babu. he is a former metropolitan police chief superintendent and is a friend of the begum family. nikita malik is the director at the centre on radicalisation and terrorism at the right—wing think tank, the henry jackson society. welcome, both of you. i know that obviously you know the family. have you had contact with them since it
emerged shamima begum has been stripped of her citizenship? the solicitor is dealing directly with this family but i have been in touch. that effectively means she is stateless, as far as they concerned? she has never been to bangladesh, her parents have got bangladeshi passports and if her to citizenship is taken off her, effectively she will end up stateless. but she would have a right to bangladesh ‘s data —— bangladeshi citizenship? have a right to bangladesh ‘s data -- bangladeshi citizenship? and they would have the right to reject it. the government has been preoccupied by brexit, does not seem to have any bandwidth for anything else and they should have been thinking about the individually families coming back and looking at what they will do. we have to remember several hundred individuals have already come back from syria. she has actually been a p pa re ntly from syria. she has actually been apparently spoken to byjournalists
in the wake of this decision by the home secretary and she has a p pa re ntly home secretary and she has apparently said she is not shocked, she is a bit shocked, reportedly said she feels it is a bit unjust on her and her son, she may explore potential citizenship through her husband who is dutch. she said if she were to get sent back to prison in holland, she could wait for him in holland, she could wait for him in holland while he is imprisoned —— if he were sent back to prison. in terms of showing any remorse or understanding of what has happened and what she has done, she doesn't seem to be showing it and that is what is causing concern. she was 15—year—old girl when she was radicalised, a child, the police knew about it, the school knew about it, and also tower hamlets council knew about it, they did not share the information with the parents. the first the parents need in spite of others in authority knowing was when she had actually left the country. absolutely. this is
bizarre, a letter was given by the police after they had spoken to the school directly to the girls, these children, and that letter, saying they wanted to interview them, to talk about talking to individuals who had been radicalised, that letter was found in the girl's schoolbag. it beggars belief now. tower hamlets council have decided despite that, despite one of the girls being killed in syria, they have said there is no reason for the serious case review. it is an opportunity to have an independent review of the decisions made by the police, local authority and school and there were significant failings. if four example one of the goals at the school had got as far as getting onto a plane, she was taken off the plane, the authorities knew that, and despite it happening, they did not share the information with the other girls being targeted by the fighters —— one of the girls.
other girls being targeted by the fighters -- one of the girls. what is your reaction when you hear her speak estimate there is disquiet among many, she is not showing remorse, she among many, she is not showing remorse, she says among many, she is not showing remorse, she says she wants sympathy and to come back to this country. —— when you hear her speak? what would you say about her state of mind? essentially, i feel actions have consequences and the home secretary's decision to take her citizenship is part of a legal tool kit to kind of punish her for what she has done. however, we have to keep in mind around 33 people had their citizenship taken away in 2015 for very similar reasons and perhaps the reason this has been put forward is because we simply do not have the kind ofjustice is because we simply do not have the kind of justice system is because we simply do not have the kind ofjustice system in the uk is yet to punish people for sentences long enough or systems to keep them in prison for long enough. under international law, you cannot be left stateless and her family say in
spite of the parents being from bangladesh, she does not have bangladeshi citizenship, and if she has been stripped of british citizenship, she is now stateless. yes, i feel the decision to take her citizenship away is very controversial because she was radicalised in the uk, she has not spent a day in bangladesh and we cannot export our terrorists to bangladesh or syria, iraq, we have a responsibility to prosecute her here. her sentence responsibility to prosecute her here. hersentence in responsibility to prosecute her here. her sentence in my opinion should be long. evidence should be found for her crimes and her son should be given the opportunity to bea should be given the opportunity to be a good citizen. but the reason this decision has been made again is because of the kind of outcry that has been received based on things she has said in the media, that she does not regret her decision, she made it fully on her own behalf, no
one influenced her, and she has... people should have sympathy for her. they don't, frankly. they have sympathy for the real victims of islamic state, the yazidi women and iraqi and syrian people they have go. i do not think it is any other country bass response ability apart from hours to ensure she does not pose a threat to anybody asked —— country's responsibility. an e-mail, if you disown your country and go abroad to support a terrorist group, you forfeit your british passport, we cannot let her back, we will be adding to the uk is soft touch. any mail, the right decision, the country needs to get tough on those whojoin country needs to get tough on those who join terrorist groups —— this is an e—mail. she decided to leave to support a terrorist campaign against a nation she wants to call home again. she is a traitor and a threat. anonymous text, if she is allowed back into the uk, gives a message to all terrorist that no
matter what they do, they can always come back safely to britain. she has shown no remorse and regret. in terms of de—radicalisation, nikita, do you think you could —— she could be de—radicalised?” published a report today showing similar cases to hers, women who have gone to islamic state and come back with their children and unfortunately even the de—radicalisation programme we have for those returning, it incentivised as people in it to lie because notes are shared withjudges as people in it to lie because notes are shared with judges who determine how often they can see their child, so how often they can see their child, so there is an incentive to show you have been de—radicalised. the biggest issue in my opinion is that we do not have laws as yet, treason laws, to be employed and enable a person to be punished appropriately for their crimes. it is particularly difficult to find evidence for shamima begum's case because she
would not have participated in violence, because they do not allow women to commit acts of violence. they stay at home and create the next generation of jihadists. they stay at home and create the next generation ofjihadists. how do we prove the level of participation she had in this group? as she said, we do not have evidence, when she was interviewed. you are explaining how her parents feel let down because of the fact they did not know what was going on with their daughter until she left the country. in terms of what she has done, where she has been, do they condemn that? as things stand, she is unable to come back to this country, but they are challenging that, if she were to come back, how would they feel about herfacing come back, how would they feel about her facing the full force of justice, being arrested and potentially facing charges? initially, 2015, the commissioner of the met police, sir bernard hogan—howe, basically said she should come back and she would not
face any consequences, there was a recognition as a 15—year—old child that the council, police and school had failed to share information with the parents. things have changed a lot, do the parents still see her as a victim? do they see what she has done and see the reaction? in terms of what she has done, no evidence of herfighting, of what she has done, no evidence of her fighting, what there of what she has done, no evidence of herfighting, what there is of what she has done, no evidence of her fighting, what there is evidence of isa her fighting, what there is evidence of is a naive brainwashed girl, young girl, who was radicalised over the internet. that is what they see and they see somebody... they do not support what she did and they were desperately upset about her going and wanted her to come back, but she was brainwashed and even now when you hear her, here is somebody with some serious mental health issues, somebody who says, i saw severed heads and i was not fazed. i was a police officer for 30 years and every time i had to lift a dead body, it affected me badly. the idea
that somebody sees dead bodies and is not fazed, it seems bizarre. we have to go back to what the authorities knew at the time when she was being radicalised and the failures in the police, the council and the school and i think we now need to look at what our international responsibility is and we cannot hive off our problems to another country and she has never been to bangladesh. thank you very much, dal babu and nikita malik. keep your comments coming in. and also on our next story... an eighth labour mp has resigned from the party. joan ryan said she was horrified by the leadership's failure to deal with anti—semitism. joan ryan criticised jeremy corbyn‘s leadership, saying she was horrified, appalled and angered by the party's failure to tackle anti—semitism. she's joined seven other former
labour mps who resigned on monday to form the new independent group. now there are reports that some conservative mps might resign from their party today and join that group because they're unhappy about theresa may's brexit strategy. let's speak to our political guru, norman smith, at westminster. what is the latest, norman? sounds like another dramatic day in store. we are all aquiver at westminster because the signs are we are going to see a clutch of tories abandoning ship. i was told by one person who should know i think to be on standby mode. i am on standby mode. if we get two, three, maybe four tory mps joining this new independent group, that would be a significant development because at the moment they are kind of the anti—jeremy corbyn club, united by their hostility and despair with jeremy corbyn. if they attract tories, it creates an entirely different much broadly representative group, and it would also be quite a blow for mrs may because it would mean her minority government becomes even
more of a minority government, making it much harder to get other legislation through. it would be a significant moment and i suppose the other thing that strikes me as it would really give this new group momentum and that is absolutely what they need. they do not want to have monday's big announcement and then to fizzle out and trickle into nothing, they need to keep getting the headlines and keep getting people's attention in the hope that if they do so by the disgruntled mps might think, you know what? these quys might think, you know what? these guys are might think, you know what? these guys are maybe getting somewhere, i will maybejoin them guys are maybe getting somewhere, i will maybe join them too. if they can will maybe join them too. if they ca n c0 nvey will maybe join them too. if they can convey the idea that they are onto something, tapping into something, then much more likely that they will be able to build and attract other supporters and funding, a much better chance of success. a big moment today, if they can get this little group of tories tojoin them. can get this little group of tories to join them. tell us the names we need to be looking for. unconfirmed, i stress that, people like heidi
allen, sarah wollaston, anna soubry. they are all big people's vote tory mps who have been prominent in demanding another referendum, but not just a demanding another referendum, but notjust a one show going. heidi allen has been highly critical of theresa may over welfare policy and in particular universal credit, she did a very emotional speech about the impact of universal credit on some far less -- some families. sarah wollaston very critical of the government over social care reform and anna soubry has lamented the demise as she sees it of the tory party as a one nation party. and i suppose on top of that, they share with the labour effectors a similar despair of what they think is a hard group taking over their party ——
defectors. the labour lot think it is the corbynistas, the conservatives think it is the erg, they have a synergy that can bring them together. agreeing a common platform will be a challenge, were they to defect. it would give the new independent group lift off if they were able to bring on board some conservatives. quick question on issues for the labour party with a tweet from the young labour twitter account in the wake of the resignation ofjoan ryan, the eighth labourmp. resignation ofjoan ryan, the eighth labour mp. very controversial, labour mp. very controversial, labour students put out a tweetjoan ryan gone, palestine lives. that has been deleted, but again, it taps into what has certainly drivenjoan ryan into what has certainly drivenjoan rya n to into what has certainly drivenjoan ryan to quit, mainly her believe the party has become institutionally anti—semitic and that isjeremy corbyn's fault, that he has failed
to tackle it and the measures he put in place she described as a revolving door, people go out and come back again. more than that, she ta kes come back again. more than that, she takes the view jeremy come back again. more than that, she takes the viewjeremy corbyn is not fit to be prime minister. but when you get tweets like this, it will fuel the fears of people likejoan ryan and others that the party really does have an issue with anti—semitism. really does have an issue with anti-semitism. thank you very much, norman. more reaction with me now is the conservative mp for the isle of wight, bob seely. are you aware mps from your party are you aware mps from your party are about to leave? i hear the rumours. i have been shocked listening over the past few days to the stories of bullying and harassment in the labour party and i am very sorry those mps have split from their party and i think maybe they were right to do so. i do not see a recognisable similarity between ourselves and labour. the sum of our colleagues wish to leave, a real shame. we have to learn from
the labour pa rty's a real shame. we have to learn from the labour party's mistakes and keep open doors and open minds and i am trying to keep everyone on board, they are not comparable, and as much asi they are not comparable, and as much as i respect norman, i do disagree. 0pen doors and open minds and the tory party, you say. those preparing to leave would say it is exactly what has not happened. to leave would say it is exactly what has not happenedlj to leave would say it is exactly what has not happened. i am a one nation liberal minded conservative, ido nation liberal minded conservative, i do not recognise anna soubry's description of the conservative party. if she does leave, it is a shame, and if she does leave and wants to come back, we should welcome her with open arms. i am not in the business of having ideological purity in a party which i think is a dangerous road to go down as we have seen from the labour party. the criticism i see of theresa may's leadership, i do not see how it coincides with my version of reality. what about what is happening with nick boles facing deselection over pushing for a
softer brexit? the relationship between a member of parliament and his constituency is another matter entirely. i have to say again, speaking from my personal point of view, if i had signed up, voted for a referendum in 2016, voted to respect the mandate given, voted in a second general election campaign ona a second general election campaign on a manifesto of respecting that mandate, and if i did not respect it, i would expect to have to explain myself. i think nick is great and i hope he stays as a memberof great and i hope he stays as a member of parliament because i think he is fantastic and has many admirable qualities, but that relationship is between him and his constituency association. if these mps do go where does that leave your party? it would mean the independent group would potentially have 11 mps which is one more than the dup in the same number as the lib dems. this isn't to split, it's
a splinter. i think the labour party has some profound and deep—rooted issues over anti—semitism, racism, bullying. i'm asking about your party. there is a splinter on one issue which is primarily europe and theissue issue which is primarily europe and the issue of a second referendum. it's where your party is and in terms of being able to govern going forward , terms of being able to govern going forward, if tory mps go... we are in a minority partnership already, it may make that partnership tricky and it may enable us to reach out to northern mps in leave constituencies who are keen to engage because they know how important it is to get a deal. everything you say seems to me strengthen the argument for getting a deal. has theresa may got it wrong when she has stuck rigidly to saying that no deal is on the table and that's where we are heading on the 29th of march? that's the thing that mps are united against. she's been
told by members of her own government that if she doesn't now publicly say she will extend article 50 to avoid no deal, 22 members of her government will go. i'm going to be boringly consistent. i want us to deliver. if people want a deal, they should wait for the deal on offer. the most important thing is we get on and govern well. i want to see us deliver a deal and get back to the issues that make a difference in peoples lives. telling the country we are heading for no—deal brexit on the 29th of march when that is what mps absolutely don't want, has that been the right strategy? let's see what happens. i suspect there will bea what happens. i suspect there will be a significant movement from the eu in the middle of march. let's see. i think we will have a deal, i see. i think we will have a deal, i see the glass is half full. we may have to extend 3—6 months but i'm hopeful there will be a deal in mid—to—late march and i'm
optimistic. thank you. let us know your thoughts on that and how you would feel if your mp were to leave the party, whether you are in one of the party, whether you are in one of the constituencies of the mps we've been talking about, let us know your thoughts on that. still to come... the largest teachers‘ union — the neu — has told this programme exclusively that it opposes a proposal to make teachers criminally responsible for failing to report a forced marriage or the threat of one. and — after a tattoo artist pleads guilty to performing illegal body modifications, we speak to a man who has dedicated his life to the practice. police in greater manchester investigating racist grafitti which was painted on the front door of a flat in salford say this morning they've arrested a 54—year—old man. jackson yamba and his ten—year—old son, david, live in that flat and they're here in the studio. jackson yamba's ten—year—old son,
david, found the vandalism 12 days ago, a few days after the family moved into the flat. it read "no blacks". the same message was posted on two communal doors in the same block. jackson reported it to greater manchester police, but he says the force only sent an officer to see him after he posted the image on twitter where it was reposted and commented on thousands of times. greater manchester police later apologised and launched an investigation. let's talk to jackson yamba and his ten—year—old son, david. welcome. tell us how you first realise the graffiti was bare. welcome. tell us how you first realise the graffiti was barem was actually on friday the eighth. we had just moved into a new flat on the third. i woke up in the morning, i normally drop him to school before setting off to work. as i was getting ready i tried to put on my shoes and i opened the door. that's
when i realised there was a graffiti on the door. he called me, there is something written on the door. i said, what is written on the door? i came to see for myself and i saw the "no blacks" messages on the door, that was on friday morning. what did you think when you saw it? when i first saw it i thought someone might be waiting there to see our reaction or it might just be waiting there to see our reaction or it mightjust be a joke. i didn't know it was going to really happen. did it upset you? yes, i was terrified, my dad told me to come out but i wanted to stay indoors because i thought someone was waiting. how did you feel about seeing that someone had put that on your door? the first reaction was for my son being traumatised in the first instance. he was crying,
asking me, dad, let's stay inside the house. the first time i was concerned but i didn't want to display any worry to my son. i wa nted display any worry to my son. i wanted to become about the situation. it made me feel really upset at the same time. i was a bit ambivalent and angry at the same time because my first reaction was how far has that person gone, for example, will he target my car or go after my boy? we didn't know... you are obviously baked feeling vulnerable, understandably, and you call the police. —— both of you are feeling vulnerable. we left the block and immediately i phoned the police to report the incident. i was given an incident number and asked
when they would attend. they said they would send someone as soon as possible. i dropped him at school and went to work, and i asked my employer to allow me to return home early because i was expecting a visit from the police. when i came in i phoned the police again and i was told there were not enough staff but they would send someone as soon as possible. i phoned a few times again and even when david finished school, he came home, he was asking me the same question. daddy, when will the police becoming? i had no a nswer to will the police becoming? i had no answer to give to david at that time. we waited. after over a week the police never attended. it was only because i tweeted, because i felt really, really left. we couldn't sleep. we were quite affected. the whole incident impeded ourfamily life. i affected. the whole incident impeded our family life. i didn't affected. the whole incident impeded ourfamily life. i didn't know if they would come again. my son was
daily seeing the messages on the doorstop like you had to leave it there as evidence. that's correct. —— you had to leave it there as evidence. when i tweeted the message it went viral and that's why we had the attention of the greater manchester police. how has life been living where you are living for you? usually i would get up, brush my teeth and then get breakfast and i will go to school. but i can't do that right now at this moment because i'm too scared in case they come back and do something worse. because i'm too scared in case they come back and do something worsem 2019, to have that written on your door, i mean, you've had to live, to experience your son seeing that. it's shocking, in 2019 for anyone to think this could happen in the society. really shocking. idon't
think it epitomises british society at all. taking into account a lot of m essa g es of at all. taking into account a lot of messages of support i received, you can see people are being really supportive. i think there are a few people out there and i feel sorry for them, and people out there and i feel sorry forthem, and in people out there and i feel sorry for them, and in 2019 specifically i don't think that type of situation has a place in our modern society. also being a uk national myself. i feel the support from people, i can see there are nice people. who can actually stand against the type of incident or crime of racism. david, you say you are still feeling worried. what do you think could happen to make you feel more co mforta ble happen to make you feel more comfortable and relaxed about what has happened ? comfortable and relaxed about what has happened? when the police finally arrived, i felt more comfortable that they were searching for the person who did this. at the
start, i thought they were still waiting there but when the police came and they said they were looking for the person, ifelt came and they said they were looking for the person, i felt more comfortable. it matters a lot to you that the police took their time to come. yes. david on e-mail says, i find it disgraceful that we still have mindless, stupid people who target the black community. they should be targeted by the police to make sure this nonsense is eradicated from our society. they should throw the book at them and send them down. black or any ethnic group should be made welcome and get on to make this a better country, only idiots who think it should be an all—white country are definitely living in a world of their own. another person says, i've been a victim of racism in britain. i hate racism and believe we are all equal but need to make people aware it's not just black people but need to make people aware it's notjust black people who suffer it. it's disgusting that racism is still happening. i hope the father and son can live without being targeted.
another viewer says, i was recently assaulted and sworn at in an unprovoked attack. i am a 57—year—old white woman with a south african accent. i live in constant fear and have to wear an alarm around my neck. jackson, i think i know what you're going to say to this question but will you stay where you are? currently, i think it's too premature to actually decide. my son's school is nearby, five minutes away. but we will see. i've lived in salford. six years and i've lived in salford. six years and i've never experienced that type of crime before. it's the first time, it's shocking, specifically for my boy who has gone through a lot. my sympathy also is around those people
who are in a similar situation who can't report, or who have reported and also have never had any response, for example. 0r people who can't tweet. how can they move forward from this type of situation? if it wasn't for the tweet, i don't think we could have had the attention. ijust think we could have had the attention. i just feel think we could have had the attention. ijust feel for think we could have had the attention. i just feel for those people in a similar situation. attention. i just feel for those people in a similar situationlj wish you pay for the best. thank you very much. —— i wish you all the best. the largest teachers‘ union — the neu — has told this programme exclusively that it opposes a proposal to make teachers criminally responsible for failing to report a forced marriage or the threat of one. the government says forcing someone to marry against their will remains a largely hidden crime. it's why ministers are weighing up the possibility of introducing a mandatory legal duty for frontline professionals like teachers and health workers to report cases, and if there should be penalties for a failure to do so. but the national education union says this is the wrong approach. here's poonam taneja.
i was 11 years old and i found out that my parents wanted me to get married to my cousin in another country. the government wants to crack down on forced marriages. it is looking at how the police, teachers, health and social workers can work together to protect young people being pressured to marry against their will. it a crime now and the government recognises that. often associated with that crime or other crimes such as assault, for some present, maybe sexual offences and in the worst case, people are murdered. one idea on the table is the legal duty for professionals to report cases of forced marriage with criminal or professional punishments if they fail to do so. but the biggest teaching unions told this programme it is not happy about that. the idea of criminal sanctions does
raise the stakes for professionals. it was really scary. i had been planning that day for seven months. i got out through the back door, ijumped over the wall and went to the train station. and ijust waited for the train. i changed my sim so my family couldn't reach me. actually, that made me feel much better. hana ran away from home a year ago when she was 18 years old. she now lives in hiding away from her family. we've changed her name and used an actor to voice her words and disguise her identity. i was 11 years old and i found out
that my parents wanted me to get married to my cousin in another country. asa as a child she thought little of it. it came up again when she was studying for her a—levels. my mum said to me, "what do you think about this guy? what do you think about getting married? " she was talking about my first cousin! i didn't know him at all, i barely knew anything about him. i said to her, i don't think this is what i want for my future. and she didn't seem happy at all. but her parents had made up their minds, leaving her no choice but to escape. the most recent figures show that about 1,200 cases were reported to the government's forced marriage unit in 2017. a third of all cases involved children, with the youngest classified as babies. most cases involved girls and women.
forcing someone into marriage is a criminal offence but there have only been four convictions since the law has been introduced. it remains a hidden crime. young victims like hana don't tell their teachers. i had anxiety attacks in school. my teachers would often ask if something was going on at home. but i didn't want to tell them maybe i am worried about marriage, maybe i am worried that i can't sleep at night. just thinking and thinking and thinking about getting married to someone i don't know. i thought maybe it would be a big deal and maybe they'd involve people i don't want involved in the situation. like social services or the police. and it is why last november the home secretary sajid javid launched a public consultation about introducing a legal duty for professionals like teachers to report cases of forced marriage
or the risk of one. one option is the possibility of criminal or professional sanctions if they fail to do so. the largest teaching union in the country has told us they are concerned. it's really important obviously that schools and colleges do follow the procedures. but placing an individual responsibility on individual teachers, we don't believe is going to help. the idea of criminal sanctions does raise the stakes for professionals. but without the back—up, without the training and knowledge and understanding, that is not going to be helpful to them to reporting things. in birmingham, where there are a relatively high number of forced marriages, teachers say there are other ways of preventing the practice. for me, i am a bit worried about it being a mandatory sanction.
it will put teachers off fully, there is no doubt about it. i think they would rather use their professionaljudgment and share the information they understand and get a response from the school in its normal way, involve the police or otherwise. when i first came to the city there were situations with some of the girls of post—16 who felt threatened by that as a potential outcome for them, that they would often ask us to hold their passport. on one occasion or two occasions i can honestly say the police were involved and social services were involved. in effect, those girls were removed from the environment in which they were living. it is while learning about forced marriage is on the curriculum at the school in birmingham. i find it quite cruel that a parent can force a child into marriage for their own personal gain, such as for their honour or their status. so they force their children into marriage. i believe that is really selfish for them to do so.
if she gets married to or he or she to someone that they don't know, they are not going to be able to have some kind of love. and that's what relationships and marriages are all about. i think support and to talk about forced marriage and raise awareness about it because it is not something that is commonly talked about. and a lot of children or people who don't really watch the news all that often so they might not know about forced marriage. it is important that people can identify the signs so they can report it. if somebody is in that situation they know what to do and how to get out of it. police in birmingham work closely with teachers and raise awareness of what is known as the one chance rule. the one chance rule is generally when a person makes a disclosure to a schoolteacher or social worker. often they will give them a lot of information at that time and what we don't want to do is close that individual down because often the account to give at that time is truthful and they are very honest about the risk and threat that they are under and they face. it's later on when you go to question again when they understand the consequences of what they said
so quite often the young person may close down. while teaching unions are concerned, some think mandatory reporting is the only solution, but without criminal punishment. we need mandatory reporting because one of the things it will mean, hopefully, is teachers are correctly trained to spot the signs. and by having that level it will actually protect more young people from being taken abroad orforced to marry in the uk. forced marriage is a complex issue. victims like hana are aware that there are no simple solutions. having been through this experience, i personally think someone might not want to speak up. it shouldn't be made compulsory to report. the findings of the home office consultation will be released later this year. you've been getting in touch with
your thoughts. 0ne you've been getting in touch with your thoughts. one person said, who reports it? the family won't. forcing teenage girls to marry is disgusting and barbaric. any person who is aware of it should report it, including teachers. another viewer says, surely this is a safeguarding issue. another viewer, of course teachers should report it, it's abuse. last week, a tattoo artist called brendan mccarthy, also known as dr evil, pleaded guilty to performing illegal body modifications, including a tongue—splitting procedure and the removal of a nipple and a ear, without using anaesthetic. he originally fought the case on the basis that he carried out the procedures with the consent of clients. but a judge ruled that providing written consent did not constitute a defence. mccarthy is due to be sentenced next month. now some of his clients are speaking out in his defence. we're about to show you graphic images of some of the modifications he has done on body parts, including extreme piercings. the images will last about 30
seconds, if you want to look away. these pictures show the guest we're about to speak to — who has changed his name to body art — having a procedure on his forehead and here after a tongue—splitting modification. joining us now is body art — his full name is "king of ink land king body art the extreme ink—ite", after he changed his name from matthew whelan. he's devoted his life to body modification. and dr selina master from the royal college of surgeons who has concerns that people may be unaware of the risks such procedures carry for their oral health, as well as their wider general health. welcome. thank you forjoining us. you've had a lot done, i can see your eyes have been inked, you've got various implants, you've had your ea rs got various implants, you've had your ears shaped. you are tempted
two from head to foot. we are fully aware there are no regulations at this stage for the body modification procedures. me being a client of dr evil, knowing he wasn't an actual doctor, i met him over a decade ago. he did some implants in the sub—dermal tissue of the skin. i have three sub—dermal implants. he did a transdermal implant in 2015 on me which is the first time i heard about him being prosecuted. the police contacted me in 2016, west midlands police stating that they beget an extra indictment of the forehead proceeded to court case. this is a transdermal implant which is fully surgical, it's a disk against the skull and you screw it in. is not done with anaesthetic? a
lot of his stuff has been done without. a lot of it is done without anaesthetic. there are some practitioners who won't speak out because it's another potential charge. did you have them done without anaesthetic? somewhere than some without anaesthetic. what was that like? i would say it's very painful. the healing process is more painful. the healing process is more painful than the procedure itself. while i have stained bibles, the rings around my eyes got black and bruised from the healing procedure —— stained eyeballs. bruised from the healing procedure -- stained eyeballs. obviously you go through a lot of pain to do it but what if things go wrong? there have been stories... this has been my lifestyle for over half my life from the mental age of nine, being exposed to different cultures, travelling different parts of the world. i do a lot of research,
there's a website called bme which isa there's a website called bme which is a safe place for people in my community. can i show a picture of you when you were 19?|j community. can i show a picture of you when you were 19? i was about 19 or20. you when you were 19? i was about 19 or 20. obviously... you must have spent a fortune on this stuff. yes, there's quite a lot of money on the surgical process and also i've had a lot of tattoos. people forget that tattoo removal was once licensed and now anyone can do it in a cosmetic practice as well. selina, the reason this has come to the fore is because of dr evil being sentenced for carrying out these procedures without anaesthetic and he is now facing sentencing. his defence is consent was always given and talking to body art, he stumpings he's wa nted to body art, he stumpings he's wanted to do. what is your take on
it? -- wanted to do. what is your take on it? —— he has done things he has wa nted it? —— he has done things he has wanted to do. in terms of consent, it is valid and informed consent. the general medical council has recommended that patients have a two—week cooling off period so they are giving the information on the risks and benefits and go away and have time to reflect on it. with that have made a difference to you? probably not because we've already talked about it and done research. dr evil gave us a talk and even with the procedures he talked to us throughout the procedure. in that situation where people are determined to have something done, two weeks wouldn't make any difference. what we would like to see is that they are fully informed of the potential risks and the possible adverse consequences. i think to have that verbally and in writing and to have the time to reflect on those. has he ever
refused to do a procedure on you? he has and i've seen him refused to do... while he's done either removals and my ear shaping, a client i know refused to do his work because he didn't think he was of sta ble because he didn't think he was of stable mind. he refused to do a volu nta ry stable mind. he refused to do a voluntary amputation of one of my toes. your whole body is covered with tattoos, is there anything left you want to do? there are still procedures i want and it's been said imight be procedures i want and it's been said i might be suffering from some form of rare body dysmorphia or integrity identification crisis disorder. i was diagnosed last year with adult adhd and that's the only thing the doctors can say to me that i've got. they didn't diagnose it as a child but i have no body issues. i'm fully of sound mind in that aspect and from explaining myjourney and being body art with a philosophical
belief, wanting to transition in death to a preservation of skin art in death, it's more of a lifestyle philosophy. thank you both for joining us. thank you for your company today. bbc newsroom live is coming up next. there will potentially be some drama at prime minister's questions, full coverage on the bbc news channel. have a lovely day. bye—bye. it's nearly 11am, where has the morning it's nearly 11am, where has the morn' it's nearly 11am, where has the morning gone? further to the north and west, for a good part of the day along the western side of scotland and the cumbrian fell down into the western side of wales, the odd bit
and piece of rain. most of the sunshine in north—eastern scotland and increasingly the eastern side of the pennines. double figures for many of us, one or two could see 15 degrees. 0vernight, the skies make clear across the south—eastern quarter but it won't be a cold night. western scotland, northern ireland, temperatures won't get below 9—10. then on thursday, a somewhat drier day especially in the western areas. maybe the odd bit of rainfor western areas. maybe the odd bit of rain for some. quite a bit of brightness around and full on sunshine. i think the temperatures will be a degree or two higher, for many with a high of 15 or possibly 16.
you're watching bbc newsroom live — it's11am and these are the main stories this morning: the teenage girl who joined is says being stripped of her british citizenship is "unjust" — but any appeal process is likely to be lengthy. this is a complex issue and it could run for a very long time through the courts and i suspect the result is going to be she will stay where she is for maybe two years at least. mpjoan ryan becomes the eighth to quit labour to join the new independent group in parliament. with speculation mounting at westminster, a clutch of tories could be poised to defect. is this liftoff moment for the new independent group? a warning from the uk's competition watchdog, which says the proposed supermarket merger between sainsbury‘s and asda