hello. this is the briefing. i'm sally bundock. the former chairman of nissan, our top story: carlos ghosn, is expected to be released from jail in tokyo. as the drc struggles to deal he's been granted bail with its deadly ebola epidemic, of nearly $9 million, we have a special report on how it's an appeal by prosecutors failed. being worsened by war. he's been detained for more than three months, charged with financial misconduct. he denies any wrongdoing. how do we know you are not one of venezuela's president nicolas maduro their accomplices? the community has called on his supporters to take to the streets on saturday, to coincide with anti—government rallies organised by opposition here is not happy. how brexit‘s bringing sorrow and satire to europe. leader, juan guiado. we're at cologne's carnival, asking president maduro has called the opposition the "crazed minority" and promised they'll be defeated. if there's anything to celebrate. kyliejenner has become one of the world's youngest r kelly angrily denies child sex billionaires, according abuse allegations in his first to forbes list. tv interview since being charged. she is 21. the magazine calls her how stupid would it be for me, with a "selfie billionaire." the youngest kardashian founded her beauty products company just three years ago. my crazy past she's reached the milestone earlier than facebook founder mark zuckerberg, who made the list at the age of 23. it's liz30am. now on bbc news, hardtalk.
welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. may's european parliament elections could be a defining struggle for the continent's feature, a struggle between the forces of liberalism and populism, perhaps best personified by french president emmanuel macron up against hungary's viktor orban. my guest todayis hungary's viktor orban. my guest today is italy's former centre—left prime minister, paolo gentiloni. politically, he is with emmanuel macron that his country is led by populist sympathetic to viktor orban. so which message is resonating with your‘s voters? —— europe's.
paolo gentiloni, welcome to hardtalk. let me ask you a very simple question, do you feel like a stranger in your own land today, just one year after that election which are lost so resoundingly? no, you could never feel a which are lost so resoundingly? no, you could neverfeel a stranger which are lost so resoundingly? no, you could never feel a stranger in your own country. obviously, i am not talking for the italian government, i have my own opinions, and they are the opinions of the opposition. but it is not like a normal switch between parties, this was a massive change, almost a revolution in the political culture in rome. for the first time, we had any politicians who were voted into office in rome. yes, and something
happens in the nine months after the new government took office. these two forces changed very much their relation with france, so now we have more nationalistic, it government, more nationalistic, it government, more of a nationalistic government than an antiestablishment government. —— nationalistic government. —— nationalistic government. so you mean within that coalition, the five star movement has lost significant amount of the nationalist of the league led by matteo salvini? yes, the five star movement is in a sort of sunset mood, and matteo salvini is leading the game. and we will talk about what gives matteo salvini his particular strength, but before we get to that, let's talk about you
and the losers, and let us be blunt, you were and your party work, the democratic party, were the big losers of that significant election result last year. losers of that significant election result last yea r. let losers of that significant election result last year. let me quote you a respected italian historian, she said the italian political class on both the mainstream right and left is now widely perceived as a failure. to put it lightly, there has been, people had their chance and they blew it. we lost the elections. you should say more than that. i don't think that losing the elections, for us in italy, and not talking about other countries because we will, if you like, but about italy, losing the elections was very serious for us but gradually, we are recovering. i would just mentioned to you the fact that on sunday, two days ago, almost 2 million people took part in a
popular vote to choose the new leader of a party, and this is presented now, since a couple of days, as a rebirth or even a relaunch. well, it is only going to bea relaunch. well, it is only going to be a rebirth if he has significant new ideas, if he has new ideas which can connect with the centre—left, the liberal left in italy, with the voters in a way that was not possible under your leadership. perfect. that is exactly what we will try to do in the next months before the next italian elections, and also before the european elections, because our party, with other forces in the centre—left, have the possibility in this european elections in two months and a half now to show one thing, that
the nationalist salvini leadership is not so strong as it appears. the last polls i saw and of course we cannot rely too much on polls, but the last polls i saw had your party, the last polls i saw had your party, the democratic party, support around 17% the democratic party, support around i7% and the league's support around 32%, so you have got a long mountain to climb and it is about the lessons you have learned. what lessons did you have learned. what lessons did you learn, former prime minister of italy, about the failure of your sort of centre—left politics to fundamentally address italy's economic problems to start with? italy with an unemployment rate of around i7% when he left office, use in early failed to find solutions. -- 7%. i in early failed to find solutions. —— 7%. i would not say this, obviously. i think the people of italy, they would say it. —— who did not have jobs under your leadership.
it is not always clear that when you lose elections you did everything wrong in the government, because it is not always the case. i think we made serious mistakes, but at the same time i'm part of the fact that we took italy in a very difficult and serious economic situation in 2011, 2012, after the silvio berlusconi government. —— proud. 2011, 2012, after the silvio berlusconi government. -- proud. any left it in a very serious economic situation. no, absolutely not. there is very low growth, high unemployment, and a debt mountain which recently have not. this is simply not true, we left italy with a decent level of growth, which was 1.796, a decent level of growth, which was 1.7%, which is not so bad. with declining unemployment, with the best result in exports in a last 30 yea rs best result in exports in a last 30 years and so on and so forth.
forgive me, but i think some italians is into this might say well, here we go, another leap rebel politician who simply refuses to recognise that he needs to change. —— listening to this. recognise that he needs to change. -- listening to this. no, i think there is more than this, that we have to be passed on to the fact that having a good result on macroeconomics is not mean having a good result for the people. —— does not. not automatically, this is of course crystal clear in italy. yes, of course we had growth, yes we had lower unemployment, yes, we had the better financial balance in the country, but this was not something perceived by the people as something making their condition better. which brings us rather neatly into discussion of immigration, the whole migration issue. of course, the crisis really came home to europe in 2015 but italy had been dealing with
it even before then because more and more people have been coming in small boats from north africa to your coastline, the numbers went on the thames to the hundreds of thousands. again, the problem for you in the centre—left is that yougov and italy in that period up till 2018, is that you seemed incapable of finding solutions that the italian people could believe in. do you least except that? we found a solution at the end of our five years's term, especially in 2017. we managed to reduce migration flows in a very, very remarkable way. there isa a very, very remarkable way. there is a contradiction that perhaps explains what we are talking about. my explains what we are talking about. my government finished his term with a very high level of popularity, 52% of consensus in the country. —— its
term. my government was defeated at the elections. yes. this means that the elections. yes. this means that the italian people perceived that that that the government was doing itsjob ina that that the government was doing itsjob in a good way, and is it was working on the right track. but they perceived also the party as something that did not function in the last five years. for them. for the last five years. for them. for the people. exactly. and this is what we are changing now. politics is an emotional business and in this particular era, perhaps a motion is more important than ever. and here's a quote from one of your former ministers, who i think was europe affa i rs ministers, who i think was europe affairs ministerfor ministers, who i think was europe affairs minister for while ministers, who i think was europe affairs ministerfor while in your government, to quote goes like this. what went wrong is that we did not manage to fight the perception that italy was being invaded by an migratory flows, there was an emotional feeling that many italians had in the surveys point to it,
which you and your government simply could not address. why? why was the ce ntre—left could not address. why? why was the centre—left simply not able to deal with migration in an emotional way? the perception of an invasion of migrants is something that you have to deal with very seriously. just think to the fact that britain and ireland was convinced during the referendum that it was having the danger of a migration invasion, and it is an island and they did not have in britain 200,000 people coming by boat as we had in italy, so the idea of this invasion is some thing that you have to deal with in politics today in europe. matteo salvini addressed it head on, he said he would no longer allow the ngos, humanitarian boats cruising the mediterranean to bring migrants on to italy's shores, he has since
gone further and said they cannot even gone further and said they cannot eve n a nswer gone further and said they cannot even answer italian coastal waters. he took tough decisions, he said he was going to eliminate the migration problem. italian people felt that he was talking their language and was addressing the issue in a way that emotionally connected with them. could you do that or is this something that only the right and the far right is capable of doing and saying? the fact is that we did that, not salvini. what is salvini doing? he is working on the results that can be achieved, but not only working on the results that we achieved but he is adding to these results are managing migration flows, that were reduced 85% from my government, not from the salvini government. he is adding to this a very dangerous propaganda. i never closed italian ports, when we
reached 21,000 people in one single day. he is closing italian ports when we reach 45 persons in a single boat, and this is not managing migration flow, this is propaganda. is this propaganda it useful to have some good result in the surveys? yes, it is. but here is the thing, howell you as a politician react... i think it is very dangerous for our country. -- how. so mr salvini stands in the polls right now at something like 53% approval, i checked your own personal approval ratings and they stand at something like 17%. you cannot mix the personal approval with the party's approval. so if you look at the personal approval, approval. so if you look at the personalapproval, salvini approval. so if you look at the personal approval, salvini approval is about 50% in my personal approval is about 50% in my personal approval is about 50% in my personal approval is about 43%, this is the personal approval. the party approval,
salvini is about 30%, 32%, and our parties about 19, 20%. well, your numbers are different from the ones. . . numbers are different from the ones... no, no, my numbers are correct, i assure you. things change very rapidly. we were talking before this about the sunset of the five star movement. they were 24% in the last elections, they are now 21%, 2296, last elections, they are now 21%, 22%, so they have lost half of their people voting for them in this period. so, i only say that what salvini is doing, for example, making propaganda that with 46 poor migrants, closing our ports and living the tradition of our country is not solving the migration problem. he is creating a basis for
hatred positions in my country, this is very dangerous. no, i understand what you are saying, i am just think about the politics of this. there is another aspect of it, which is that mr salvini and his colleagues in the coalition and the five star movement as well, luigi di maio and his associates, they are inclined to blame the eu for a lot of italy's problems, including the migration problem. they claimed that the eu wa nts to problem. they claimed that the eu wants to tie italy's cans it's back so it cannot respond nationally to the migration challenge, they also claimed that the eu is tying italy's ca ns claimed that the eu is tying italy's cans economically with the strict fiscal rules in the eurozone. you had a choice to make when you are living italy and you often did blame europe to a certain extent for problems inside italy and the former prime minister, he got very angry with what he saw both centre—left and centre—right and said you guys did not stand up properly for the
eu, you allowed to blame reflex to come into play in italian politics, which mr salvini has since used. do you plead guilty to that? salvini has been come in the nine months, and extra ordinary promoter of consensus for eu in italy. this can appear strange, but eu was rather unpopular, you are right, a couple of years ago in italy. because of the fact that we felt and we we re because of the fact that we felt and we were isolated in facing the migration challenge and because of economic choices. but the fact is that now, after the italian citizens saw the new government's job, the consensus to eu gains more or less
15 points. so, now, eu with much more popular than it was two years ago. i don't know in britain, but for sure ago. i don't know in britain, but forsure in ago. i don't know in britain, but for sure in italy —— the interesting thing about salvini... salvini is a strong promoter of eu in my country. he has done something very interesting. he is less openly eurosceptic but instead he has decided to have this old ambition to change the eu after his own image, to turn the eu into something he can work with good it will be full of like—minded people, thus he is his political actors with the nationalists in poland and hungary and elsewhere. how concerned are you that salvini, with his supporters in other countries, is actually going to use these european elections to build a new anti— migration right—wing populist consensus? build a new anti— migration right-wing populist consensus? well, we will have an anti— migration position in the european parliament for sure. for sure? yes,
position in the european parliament forsure. forsure? yes, it will position in the european parliament for sure. for sure? yes, it will be a minority position, according to the service. now, this position will have more or less 15% of the members of the parliament, so it is not crucial to decide the political balance and the political leadership that we will have in the eu. these bala nces that we will have in the eu. these balances and these leadership will be pro— european and decided by traditional political european families. i mean, christian democrats, social democrats and liberal together. the old elite coming other words. from the beginning of this interview, we have discussed whether or not the european voters believe in the eu... now it is salvini. i am not the elite. the elite is mr salvini. he is the one going —— i am not sure peoples perception change that quickly. trump is the elite. of the
elite is... that is a very interesting debate. how quickly do peoples perceptions change? yes, it is rapidly changing. but i am not saying that having 15% will be insignificant. because with 15%, and with some national populist inside the conservative european popular party, this position could have an influence. what is fascinating... europe will not change. europe will not change, you say. the introduction suggested that emmanuel macron epitomises a europe of liberal minded reform, which the counterpoint to salvini, victor or bad and the others on the populist nationalists right. now, you have a lwa ys nationalists right. now, you have always been thin pathetic to macron, when he was elected in france. you
hailed it as a great hope for all of europe —— vikor orban. today in front to fake that macron is in trouble with those protests across the country. you feel confident as you did that that style of politics can take europe voters with it?|j think that pro— european positions will have a clear majority in the next elections. i hope it also in italy the majority of the non— pro— european forces will change, and it is an open issue. with the league, as you have a ready admitted, the league is still the most popular party in italy. it is unlikely that you and your centrist centre—left politics are going to make a sudden resurgence in italy. but unlikely things happen in politics, as you know. something happened in this... it is very unlikely. we come back to
the whole conversation which is, what have you learnt? what is new about your political offer today that wasn't there just one year ago? how are you going to connect with voters in a new way? as i told you, firstly, growth is not exactly the only solution that you need. so, yes, we achieved a growth without government is again, but a growth that was not sustainable from a social point of view, and from an environmental point of view. this, i think, was the main issue. and the second one was, yes, but are you ce ntre—left second one was, yes, but are you centre—left government? able to manage the migration threat, the migration challenge? well, i think we have good answers to both these questions. we already again to give
these answers and the message... and they are notjust these answers and the message... and they are not just technocratic, these answers and the message... and they are notjust technocratic, they are emotional? answers that will have an emotional connection? the message i want to give to those that are listening to us is that things are listening to us is that things are changing in my country. you are right, you need emotions. when almost 2 million people go to vote for a new leader of our party, this means that against this government, there is now an emotional wave in there is now an emotional wave in the company —— country, and it is a big responsibility for us because we have two except —— to accept this act of faith in our party and transform it in something competitive with the new national populistic government. but things are very different from where they we re are very different from where they
were a year or eight months ago. and they are changing. they are, and we know in britain that politics can change fast and the demotion is a vital link dream on. —— ingredient. a final thought from you, as an outside senior european politician looking in to britain and its extended brexit crisis, how different is the eu going to be when, andi different is the eu going to be when, and i say when britain ultimately leaves? we don't quite know when it will be, supposed to be much 29th, but how will it change the eu? i hope only in the economics mostly, it will be a very hard changing economics, in trade, a very serious problem for europe, a catastrophic europe for the uk. this is my opinion. i do hope that not so much will change from a geopolitical point of view, because i think that
the eu and uk in any case, even after brexit, are in a certain sense obliged to co—operate in such a complicated world. we need to work together because we haven't at stake some common values. freedom, free trade, welfare state, the democratic liberties, and even multilateralism. so, i hope that from a geopolitical point of view, eu and uk will continue to be strong allies. and i am rather confident, and i am sure that italy could do a contribution, could give a contribution to this attitude, that this is the right way, we are friends even if britain will leave the club. we have to end there. thank you very much for being
on hardtalk. thank you very much. hello there. all our weather is going to be coming in from the west over the next few days. there's a really strong jet stream tracking right the way across the atlantic and that picks up areas of cloud. this one here will arrive on friday to bring some rain. this one here has already brought some rain across most of the uk. it's around that area of low pressure. those weather fronts are taking the rain further north into scotland. we are also seeing some really strong winds, especially in wales and the south—west of england. it's been another cold night across northern scotland, a touch of frost even by the morning. much milder elsewhere, but very windy, especially in wales
and south—west england. but gusty winds will continue with these bands of showers. and we've got the wetter weather getting stuck across scotland and northern ireland, notjust rain, but some snow over the high ground. let us have a closer look at those showers — they are in bands, really, pushing their way across england and wales. some sunshine in between. a bit of warmth, actually, 14, maybe 15 degrees, south—east england, east anglia, and also lincolnshire. but these showers will be heavy and potentially thundery. and we're much colder as you move into scotland and northern ireland. and north of the central belt, we're going to find that wet weather continuing with some snow over highland and grampian. stays wet in scotland overnight and increasingly back into northern ireland and into northern england too. further south, i think we lose a lot of those heavy showers and temperatures will dip away to around 4 or 5 degrees. it will feel colder, though, as we head into thursday. let's trace where our air is coming from, all the way from the arctic, a cold north—north—westerly wind is going to be wrapped around the area of low pressure,
which, by this stage, is out in the north sea. but around the edge of the low, where we're packing in a lot of wet weather into scotland, especially eastern scotland, northern england, down into east anglia too, some more snow over the high ground and a few wintry showers will be following in behind. probably the best of the sunshine and the dry weather — southern england and south wales, 11 degrees here. but a chilly 6 or so, i think, in northern scotland. as we head into the end of the week, well, that area of low pressure is moving away. it's taking away those cold winds. clearing skies, light winds means friday could start with a touch of frost, and some sunshine too. but it's going to cloud over. we saw the cloud earlier on coming in across the atlantic. this is bringing the rain into northern ireland, into wales, and the south—west of england and ahead of that, those temperatures may get to 9 or 10 degrees. even into the weekend, though, it stays very unsettled, some more rain, some more snow over the hills. it will be very windy. as a result, it is always going to feel on the chilly side.