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tv   BBC News at Five  BBC News  April 3, 2019 5:00pm-6:00pm BST

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today at five, we're live at westminster, where theresa may and jeremy corbyn have been holding talks, to try to break the brexit deadlock. prime minister, will it be a labour brexit? across party approach, the latest deadline isjust nine across party approach, the latest deadline is just nine days away as they have been spelling out their demands. but the brexit minister is one of two ministers to resign from the government, criticising the prime minister's approach. the leaders of other parties held talks today. this is the scene live in the house of commons, where mps are debating their own options on the way ahead. we'll have the latest on events at westminster, as progress is attempted on several fronts at the same time. the other stories on bbc news at 5.
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who was on trial for the manslaughter of 95 liverpool fans backin manslaughter of 95 liverpool fans back in 1989. a serious error of judgement, condemning the soldiers who were filmed shooting at an image ofjeremy corbyn. £200 million in compensation for the victims of the wind rush scandal, those from the caribbean countries back in the 19505 caribbean countries back in the 1950s and 60s. we are like today if a busy day in
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westminster to try to end the parliamentary deadlock over brexit and the decision to meetjeremy corbyn has angered some supporters, some of them say it is a grave error to collaborate with the labour leader and government leaders have resigned today, and theresa may also had talks with the scotland minister and to meet the minister of wales. it is those talks continue, efforts are still being made by backbench mps to pass a bill which would instruct the prime minister to request a longer delay to the brexit process of course theresa may announced last night that she was already requesting it while trying to find common ground. a vote is under way, the speaker in the chair,
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just a few matters of practicalities from the speaker, but this vote is on whether mps can hold indicative votes in a few days' time, that is to say the list of options that we are now quite familiar with for mps to consider as alternatives in the brexit process, so this vote that we are now looking at finding through to the lobbies, will be the hold more indicative votes, will be more later on the proposals for a bill. a former parliamentary bill that would instruct the prime minister to ask for a much longer brexit delay. two stages to what we are looking at in the house of commons, while we are looking at these images, let's bring in our chief correspondent to find out how. this is highly unusual, the idea that a group of backbenchers, mps from all parts of the government are able to dictate day after day,
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what goes on in the house of commons, it is unlike anything people have ever seen before and they are able to do it, they continue to do it, they have shown that they have a stable number of people managing to achieve this and thatis people managing to achieve this and that is of course means that things are to some extent are out of theresa may's hands. and is making some conservative mps believing that they have lost control of the process and that is before you even get to the point of theresa may sitting down for two hours of talks with jeremy corbyn sitting down for two hours of talks withjeremy corbyn this afternoon. we know that has finished, those talks, but we do not know what came out of that. we are expecting to hear from out of that. we are expecting to hearfrom jeremy out of that. we are expecting to hear from jeremy corbyn soon, but cabinet ministers could do not think this will be the end of it, they think that there will be more discussions coming, probably over the weekend because of course they are trying to thrash out some compromise, everyone is slightly unsure of where that compromise might fall, but nevertheless, theresa may is hoping this may be a way through even though it is hugely
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unpopular in her party. i am talking to tori mps, they are furious, some saying that the atmosphere is toxic, even those who think she is doing the right thing by trying to find consensus, by collaborating with other parties, even they are very fea rful of other parties, even they are very fearful of the impact on the conservative party. 0nce said to me that there is a parliamentary solution to this were a so—called soft brexit might be a compromise, but whether it would destroyed the conservative party, it isjust but whether it would destroyed the conservative party, it is just not going to work for them. to what extent is it true that the prime minister in this context has done her best to really find common ground with those enthusiastic brexit supporters on her own side. that has not worked and she has been forced into a different approach very late in the day, is that the correct reading? yes, i believe that is how she would see it, they say that she has gone back on everything she has said. she said that no deal
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was better than a bad deal and they think it is a bad deal and that they should've prepared more for no deal so should've prepared more for no deal so that it was a credible threat to the european union. they think they would've gotten a better deal by doing that and a sizeable chunk of the conservative party that thinks that would be the best way forward and throw it all of this, of course, two resignations, yet anotherfrom the brexit department, this time chris harris saying that he does not believe that the preparations for no deal, he says i do not believe the briefings you've received on the matters have reflected all that has been achieved, so he is suggesting there that the truth about how prepared we are for no deal, but he thinks we are well prepared is being kept from the prime minister. he says he has resigned because he com pletely says he has resigned because he completely understands of the prime minister does not want to leave about a deal, he says he is the man of charge of no deal preparations, so of charge of no deal preparations, so in fact the job government,
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irrelevant. 0f so in fact the job government, irrelevant. of course it means that there are another two former ministers willing to rebel against the prime minister. but they have moved in the conservative party is pretty gloomy —— mood. jeremy corbyn, we do not know what he said in that meeting, but they said that if another referendum is only needed to stop what they call it is * tori brexit. they believe there some sort of compromise between jeremy brexit. they believe there some sort of compromise betweenjeremy corbyn may but they would not view it as that, they say another referendum would be used in order to stop and no deal scenario, something that people here do not think is going to happen. there will be some unhappiness, but the shadow cabinet meets at six o'clock this evening. hearing thejeremy corbyn has to say, we may hearfrom hearing thejeremy corbyn has to say, we may hear from them hearing thejeremy corbyn has to say, we may hearfrom them in a short while. 0ne say, we may hearfrom them in a short while. one of our colleagues in westminster from the mirror is actually managed to have a quick word with jeremy actually managed to have a quick word withjeremy corbyn and put this out on social media. here is her
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tweet. that is about divisions in the conservative party, there was a separate tweet of having a word with jeremy corbyn himself where it seemed to suggest that the talks went pretty well. we may be able to get that up in a second, but do you think that would chime with the kind of noises that you are getting in the initial stages that were quite constructive and there may be more needed, as you havejust constructive and there may be more needed, as you have just signalled, possibly over the weekend? needed, as you have just signalled, possibly over the weekend ?m needed, as you have just signalled, possibly over the weekend? it seems unlikely, the fact that theresa may jeremy corbyn can decide what goes on with brexit. actually, you can see a way where this might work. i mean, jeremy corbyn has seemed very relu cta nt mean, jeremy corbyn has seemed very reluctant about a second referendum, theresa may definitely does not want
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one, that could be some getting together around a customs union, thatis together around a customs union, that is possible, workers' rights for example that labour wants, that is something that the prime minister is something that the prime minister is happy to do. freedom of movement, which downing street has really sad isa which downing street has really sad is a redline for the prime minister, she would accept that. freedom of movement will and when we leave the eu, so they are not that far apart on that. the problem is, they might be in agreement that parties are not, but if you can have 200 mps on either side voting through some kind of deal, it is perfectly possible. the other one thing that a cabinet minister can say that even if these talks fail, but they have to do is come up with some kind of arrangement for what happens next and that would be so—called indicative votes, not indicative, they're not advisory if the government is saying they will stick by them, they have to come up with how they will get this in place, probably from monday to give mps a series of options on different brexit alternatives and then
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government saying that they will abide by them, again, pretty controversial stuff. not to show that tweet about jeremy controversial stuff. not to show that tweet aboutjeremy corbyn‘s ta ke that tweet aboutjeremy corbyn‘s take on the talks. so the mood so far as quite positive, but what exactly are the conditions thatjeremy corbyn will relay? would have to do at the customs union, will it have to deal with some kind of public vote, and until the stocks happen, we will not be short. everyone is waiting, including cabinet ministers to find out what exactly it is they can be thrashed out. when labour mp said one compromise that may bejeremy corbyn can come up with is having idea of another referendum but he could also say that we could try to change the law with the withdrawal
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bill. that is something that could work, he could order his mps to vote for, a lot of them won't. but it would be unlikely to get through, but he could show that he has tried, but he could show that he has tried, but i think there will be quite a lively discussion in the cabinet about exactly how far and how hard he is pushing this idea of another referendum, because there'll be a lot of people in his party that will say that you are facilitating a conservative brexit and he could be in trouble for that as well. the bigger picture here could be that a deal could be done of both theresa may and jeremy corbyn could decide that they have to get this over the line. they both said they will respect referendum result and that this could be the only way to do it. but that doesn't leave too very unhappy parties. why don't we stay just on these images from the commons at the moment, because the houseis commons at the moment, because the house is filled up again on this vote to do with what mps, this series of indicative votes on
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options and although the tellers are not in place, as you can see, looks as if it's within a minute or so. suggestjust as if it's within a minute or so. suggest just the viewers as if it's within a minute or so. suggestjust the viewers benefit again, just underline, what will be the significance of this coming up which will be announced in the next 01’ which will be announced in the next orso? which will be announced in the next or so? this is called a timetable in bill, all afternoon they have been discussing how they will timetable, what happens in the house of commons, it is quite difficult for a group of backbench mps to organise all of this. they do not have the power of a government to do all of this, to come with the ideas come the legislation to have a civil service looking for them, —— working for them. to take control of what goes on. because they have been unhappy with what they have seen, what they're trying to do today and of course this predates theresa may's statement last night where she said that she was not willing to leave without a deal next week as she would be asking for another later brexit. but they're trying to do later is forced through a deal,
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and actual lot to make the prime minister ask for a delay to brexit. again, not the kind of thing you would normally see, how sustainable is this, to force the government to do something he doesn't want to do? will be very difficult. but those on the labour side did not trust the prime minister enough to just let this drop today, they decide to go through with it, try and get this through with it, try and get this through now, which is time tabling from monday, so saying that again on monday, the government will not be in charge of this, we will be. but as we know, so far, mps have voted against absolutely everything. even though they voted to trickle article 50 say, but if voted against no deal several times as everyone keeps putting into default position. but we leave without a deal but replace it with something. it is pretty clear blessing to the prime minister
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that on monday, the government might be in charge of this process and may be in charge of this process and may be backbenchers, but clearly her deal will still be in the next, she has not given up on that because she says of course you need a withdrawal agreement, whatever future relationship, you still need it withdrawal agreement to sort out money that the eu is owed, and of course, it has the backstop, and if there is no trade deal which sorts out what goes out at the hard border of northern ireland. all of that is still needed, shall be saying to jeremy corbyn that if you back my deal, my withdrawalagreement, jeremy corbyn that if you back my deal, my withdrawal agreement, we will talk about what the future relationship is in the declaration. the dangerfor relationship is in the declaration. the danger for labour there, some relationship is in the declaration. the dangerfor labour there, some of them are very nervous about the idea of signing to something which is not legally guaranteed and could be shredded by a new conservative prime minister, because theresa may said she will stand down once, if this
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first stage of brexit is over. and all of that as well, just to explain in the context of a separate attempt bya group in the context of a separate attempt by a group of mps to present new legislation which would in effect, instruct the prime minister to ask for a much longer delay, so that's happening in parallel. yes, that's right, we have these two things going on. theresa may is that you will go to the eu next week to seek some kind of delay to brexit, she is talking about a very short delay. another thing that will happen later tonight is through the parties, including the s&p, the independent group, the democrats, all of them, putting down an amendment because they want to make sure that there is another referendum. they call it a confirmatory complementary peoples vote, any kind of deal, it must go through to the people for another referendum to be confirmed. so they're putting down an amendment to two nights bill to try and get that
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past. at the moment, without the clear backing of jeremy past. at the moment, without the clear backing ofjeremy corbyn and labour, they just clear backing ofjeremy corbyn and labour, theyjust do not seem to have the numbers. i think they're hoping that eventually mps will change their mind as some buff with no deal or a referendum, but actually mps may change their mind, but at the moment, they do not seem to have enough to get that through. also, groups of mps across party and still the most striking thing about all of this is that there are huge divisions and conservative and the labour party as well, but there also groups of mps working together to try and find a way through all of this because they do not feel that the government is able to that.” the government is able to that.|j think the government is able to that.” think we are not too far away from the vote itself, and i think we can see some people, rather excited, thinking there are a few tellers gathering. but i would like to do then is, you hang on with us there, and to stay on these images as we bring in our europe correspondent
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whojoins us as bring in our europe correspondent who joins us as well, will stand the images and damien will be with us in a short while and we will get him back to talk to us in just a few minutes' time, i think isjust waiting for the result of this vote here because it will give us some indication as to the way things are going and at this point, the house is not pretty packed, i can see quite a few of the prominent brexit supporters, the bar of the house, it is known and everyone reallyjust, their presence reallyjust underlining the fact that the stakes with just nine days to go have never been higher than they are now. yes, that's right and the fact that we do not know how this is going to conclude. theresa may, last night and that statement, certainly change things quite a bit. it was very clear from listening to things quite a bit. it was very clearfrom listening to her things quite a bit. it was very clear from listening to her that she does not want to leave the eu without a deal. she talks about an
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orderly departure and she talks about it being as soon as possible, she still clearly wants to get a deal through and wanted to be done as quickly enough that the uk does not take part in the eu elections, another thing is happening next week is that the lecture to the preparations are hoarding the selections in the uk and what the government is thinking is that they can go ahead with those preparations and then pull of that at the very last minute, the day before the elections take place in may, they can say no, our deal has gone through, we are not going to go ahead with those eu elections, i do not know the eu will think about that. they'll very unhappy and worried about the uk being in the eu and not being represented in the parliament of course, they also worried about the uk being there. nicholas, the first minister of scotla nd nicholas, the first minister of scotland just giving her response to the talks of the prime minister. she sees the room for a compromise on
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her part is, i suppose overall my concern is that in that rush to reach some compromise with the clock ticking, what will happen over the next few days, if anything happens, is that a bad compromise will be reached, people will probably sound relieved that some agreement has been reached but they will realise that it been reached but they will realise thatitis been reached but they will realise that it is not in the interest of the uk, it will satisfy no one and will be open to being unpacked by the prime minister that is not theresa may, some like boris johnson. i think we need to be weary, if i was injeremy corbyn she is right now, i would be very weary about signing up to anything that may not be enough in the first place. well, i have just been in with a meeting with the prime minister trying to find the areas of agreement, where they might be. s&p
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and mp5, they have been working hard to get to a situation where no deal is no longer a risk, i think they have abstained on every vote, apart from the meaningful vote, the house of commons has had in the past few days, i will continue to stand up for scotland's national interests. and i am very concerned that it will continue to be the case, and perhaps neither the tories or labour in the discussions they are having are paying enough interest, if any interest at all, to what scotland's interests are. no, it is not, custom unit is on its own, comes close to scotland's interest, freedom of movement is a big issue for scotland. it is not always easy for politicians to address and perhaps not the same issue for other parts of the uk, but the scottish economy needs the ability to attract workers to come from across europe, so that
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his eye back in 2006 team in the scottish government was trying to feign compromise guy had a background, we wanted a single market. it's still not clear to me whether that something the prime minister is willing to consider. i think, firstly, before i thought we had to see the details of what we've been voting on. but the principles that guide and have guided a been voting on. but the principles that guide and have guided 5 are that guide and have guided us are quite clear, our top preference is to remain in the eu and that is still an option and that is why we will vote for options like second referendum, peoples vote and also to make sure revoke is an alternative to no deal, beyond that, we voted for the single market customs union compromise on monday night in the house of commons and we would always prefer softer brexit to harder brexit options, but we need to make sure that we have scotland's
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fundamental interest firmly in mind because i'm not sure, to be perfectly frank, if any party in these discussions seems to have that. i am these discussions seems to have that. lam not these discussions seems to have that. i am not going to say how we will vote before i know what the choices are that we will be voting on. the detail of that, we need to see before we can say how we will vote on specific days, on specific emotions. in the absence of that information, what i can do and have doneis information, what i can do and have done is set out the principles that will guide those decisions. i do not know, i had a good discussion with jeremy corbyn earlier and i thought that i got the sense from hand that he understood the risks of endorsing a withdrawal agreement and having only vague commitments about the future relationship. iwas only vague commitments about the future relationship. i was making very strongly to him, the points of out very strongly to him, the points of our freedom of movement from the scottish perspective and also from
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my view that any compromise that is reached, should go back to the people in a referendum to see whether people want a second compromise or if they think remain is now the best option. i got the sense in my discussions with jeremy corbyn that he would drive a hard bargain, i have to say possibly have the impression from the prime minister that she's got jeremy corbyn closer to a deal then may have been my view earlier on. i hope they don't signal out for a bad deal. and my view, it is absolutely essential that a second referendum is part of what labour seek to discuss and to do that on a timescale that allows the comments to look carefully at a possible compromise and then have that put to the people. ithink compromise and then have that put to the people. i think there should be a request for an extension to fight the european elections than a commitment to the european union that yes, they may look at a
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compromise but they will go back to the people for referendum. the prime minister as often the case, does not offer too much of what she is going to do and what her own views are on anything she says she wants to get a deal through, but i still think i cannot come out of that meeting much clearer on where, maybe we'll see some more move on that later. i would be very careful, firstly, i would be very careful, firstly, i would be very cautious about agreeing to sign to a bad withdrawal agreement on the strength of big commitments about the future relationship that are new prime minister might reveal. and under whatever compromise that they came to, would have to come back to the electorate and another vote because it is almost three years on end of
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the second best compromise is given to the people, they should be able to the people, they should be able to decide whether they want that are to decide whether they want that are to remain. and i said as much to him when i met him, i would be pretty weary that i wouldn't be falling into the trap of becoming the handmaiden ofa into the trap of becoming the handmaiden of a tory brexit. the first minister of scotland by talks of the prime minister earlier today here in westminster, the first minister also according talks of the prime minister trying to see if there is any area of common ground, but nicholas signalling that there is no mystery really, there are several areas where they are not likely to agree and about the s&p priorities. let's have a look inside the priorities, because this is taking a very long time, at least 20 minutes now. vicky is still with us, any idea why we are waiting so long for the result of this? no, but
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there is speculation circulating amongst mps that it could be a tie. it wouldn't surprise me with what is been going on here and completely how divided this place is. if it is a tie, and normal circumstances, the speaker has a casting vote and the rules and the convention is that by casting the vote, it does not alter the status quo. but in this circumstance, it is hard to know the status quo is. they all hold indicative votes on monday and that the back benches. mr speaker, inform as to what is happening.” the back benches. mr speaker, inform as to what is happening. i have never accuse the right honourable gentleman of being impatient, i was minded very soon to do so and i completely understand by the right honourable gentleman and everyone else wants resolution. there was a degree of uncertainty and that explains the delay, i thought it was
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courteous and the circumstances, and proper to ask that they confer that idid proper to ask that they confer that i did indicate that that exchange between them should be brief. and therefore, i hope to be able to announce the situation of the house extremely soon, but i quite understand by the right honourable gentleman wants to get on with matters. and i want to do so in a way that is proper. the speaker explaining that the front benches are conferring. let's listen again. mr speaker, there are rumours that it isa mr speaker, there are rumours that it is a tie, can we have a brief vote and do it twice? and am faithful to the right honourable gentleman to move further. i know he has had his fun and i'm glad he has preserved his sense of humour. but resolution will be achieved very
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soon, patience is rewarded and meanwhile, the very epitome of celebrity himself, sir william cash. if things did turn out to be a tie, the circumstances i have no idea, cani the circumstances i have no idea, can i ask the question of whether in fa ct can i ask the question of whether in fact if they were the case,. order. cani fact if they were the case,. order. can i very politely suggest to the honourable gentleman, who i always treat with the utmost courtesy and respect, rather than asked me if, wait for a very short time. i know exactly what the situation is in the hypothetical, as yet hypothetical scenario that the honourable gentleman describes, and i will give a very fair ruling to the house. please comment if he is still unclear or dissatisfied, he can come back a bit. the speaker refusing to be drawn into speculation, the two
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chief clips conferring that it sounds as if there is a bit of a problem going on. this can be very difficult to resolve because it is all about back benches having monday as well to take over what happens in the house of commons and they want to ta ke the house of commons and they want to take it over because they want to do it another round of those so—called indicative votes and try to get mps to vote in favour of something, rather than against everything. but i would say is that if peace talks between theresa may and jeremy corbyn don't work out, if they can't find any compromise, then they can't find any compromise, then the government itself says that it will facilitate exactly that sort of scenario. they will allow those votes to happen and they will abide by them and in some ways, it may be a moot point. but it will show that for the first time, there hasn't been a clear majority. let's see.
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order! order! ayes to the right 310. the noes to the left 310. a tie as we suspect that. ayes to the right 310. the noes to the left 310. or derek, in accordance to president, and on the principal that important decisions should not be taken except bya decisions should not be taken except by a majority, i cast my vote with the noes. so the noes habits. the noes had it. i cast my vote by 311 to 310. that is the proper way in which to proceed. mcintyre not to be
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highly significant decision. very big decision. he has cast his vote with the noes. let's listen. perhaps you would like to inform that house on what happened. in my recollection, i been saying this for years, is that... is that the last occasion on which the speaker had set exercise a casting vote was in 1993, andl set exercise a casting vote was in 1993, and i believe, iwill be corrected by the honourable dental meant, that it was appertaining to the mastery tracy bell —— mastery tracy bell. i say to the right honourable gentlemen, i am probably pushing my luck care and established
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authority for member stone, but i think that it was on an amendment relating to the social chapter, and it was an amendment in the means leader of the opposition, i believe. and she cast her vote in the way she did get that amendment. the rationale, i say, did get that amendment. the rationale, isay, but did get that amendment. the rationale, i say, but the exercise of the casting vote, as i have said, it is not by the chair to create a majority that does not otherwise exist. the way in which the casting vote is exercise is also depend upon the stage at which the matter is being aired. for example, it would being aired. for example, it would be exercise differently, or could be, and probably would be, on the
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second reading of a bell but that is an important principle in encouraging for the debate, and it might be use to go to a committee, but it is the final stage of the bill, the casting vote will be against them. in a situation in which a decision would be made that they would be allocated for particular business, ijudge that it is not right for me to make that decision at the house has it by a clear majority does so. i hope that is clear. like the mps wanted to question does speaker's decision. mcintyre to be a significant decision. he is talking there about president and the rules is that the speaker cannot create a majority where there is not. if there is no majority for something what that is
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not a part in decision, he or she cannot do that. interestingly, he said there was a tie in 1993 for a treaty, one of our very clever people back in the office says that timea people back in the office says that time a mistake. it was not as high, at the time he thought it was corrected the next day. the last time there was a genuine type was 1980. this can be very important. as it stands, and peace cannot take control of the agenda on monday. i do not know what that is good or bad news for the prime minister. you might want to do it in the name of the government anyway because she said that it is our plan c probably by then. conflictjeremy corbyn, she said she will have another route be so caught indicative votes, and she will abide by what the house of commons of the site. it could well be any weight that on monday, it is the government bringing forward some of the mps itself. the difference of course, if the government will be in
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control of what kind of options are put down for mps, they will be in control of what the voting system is for example. they will be in control at that rather than a group of backbenchers deciding amongst themselves. that is the crucial distinction. some people might think what is the difference that is going to be indicative vote anyway? that isa to be indicative vote anyway? that is a little big difference in the boat we just had. as you say, if those options to be paid by the government, they can be significantly different in some aspects. for example, downing street has made it clear that there is a redlined, the idea of provoking article that the altogether, stopping brexit unilaterally, they said that that is not something she is willing to consider. i will expect thatjeremy corbyn will agree with her on that. that is that they, they are going to have to get together. if they come to that stage or another route of the boats, they
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will need to do this an agreement with labour because i do not think it isa with labour because i do not think it is a point of pushing ahead with something and they are the second biggest party and they have to be signed up to the same process. there will be things like that where it will be things like that where it will not be one of the object of the government was in charge. the decision prompting lots of interest and at the challenges. the speaker is still addressing them. let's go back. it was the belief that it might be the case that it was secured 311 volts. i do think that there is any suggestion that the decision has biked against the right honourable gentlemen. in the event that there was an error, if you forgive me, iwill say let's that there was an error, if you forgive me, i will say let's cross that bridge if we come to it. i am not anticipating that we will do so.
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i found it prudent to us by the whips to concern, and they appear reach a conclusion. can you clarify for information to the house at the boat that has been announced as the boat that has been announced as the boat based on the wet accounts for the account? the answer is it is on... to count. but it is all the same. i on... to count. but it is all the same. lam on... to count. but it is all the same. i am not on... to count. but it is all the same. lam not inviting on... to count. but it is all the same. i am not inviting the honourable gentlemen to put it in his pipe and smoke it, and he does not have a pipe, and as far as i know, he does not smoke. but give an insight that has his appetite for
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further inquired to be. we come to the business of the house motion itself. the house having disposed of the amendment about the question is the amendment about the question is the business of the house motion. as on the order paper. a5 the business of the house motion. as on the order paper. as many as are of the opinion, say "aye". to the contrary, "no". division! clearthe lobby. the second of the division is on the way after that significant pa rt on the way after that significant part of milestone at this brexit process. 210 volts on each side. in the speaker deciding —— 310 votes on each side. he can be in that to create a majority white no majority exist. he cast his votes with the noes. so a request on indicative on
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monday but turned out. as the key was telling us, that does not mean we will not have a indicative of monday. that is all part of the variety and the light of this brexit process as we follow this parliamentary journey. process as we follow this parliamentaryjourney. the second of the divisions are now under way. the votes in the house of commons. the second session two that is all to do with the plans for a new piece of legislation which in effect will instruct the prime minister to request a much longer brexit delay. ina request a much longer brexit delay. in a short while, we have been in a position to bring you the latest word from john juncker who is position to bring you the latest word from jothuncker who is the president of the european commission, who has been saying something this afternoon at the short cut extension process. —— jean—claude juncker. i think short cut extension process. —— jean—claudejuncker. i think we can. this is what he had to say. the 12th
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of april is the final date for possible approval. at the house of commons does not adopt a stance before that date, no extension, no short—term extension will be possible. after the 12th of april, we run the risk ofjeopardising the correct running of the european elections in the correct functioning of the european union. that was jean—claude juncker speaking at the european union and a doubtful note ofa european union and a doubtful note of a prospect of a short extension to the brexit process. another extension. i am to the brexit process. another extension. iam basically laying to the brexit process. another extension. i am basically laying out some conditions on that and think that at this point, the view taken on that request would be possibly a -1' on that request would be possibly a —1, possibly. that was the hit that he was getting there. that was mr
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jean—claude juncker due earlier today. why do we not put these points to three of our expert guest today. we have the editor of the times, and we had that guardian contributed. first of all, where rb but all that since the amendment did not carry, does that expect us to significantly develop that the conservative mps have returned to provide the family a majority of the promise that she is really going to hold indicative votes. it is a bit of trust. it is interesting because the statement that she made with working with jeremy corbyn, so it is interesting that the tops of strikes has not influenced this particular boat. that is important. as he had said
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assignment next week? she has that carry out her promise or we will not get them. i think of no other way. an enormous amount of trust that she will do that because we know she is a great china, but the dilemma is for labour. labour could potentially walk into a trap. i do not think labour can agree to anything at all. they can agree to stop the forms of brexit, but without putting it back to the books of the people, it will bea to the books of the people, it will be a randy mcdonnell moment. it will be a randy mcdonnell moment. it will bea be a randy mcdonnell moment. it will be a catastrophe, most labour members and the momentum group for jeremy corbyn, passionately want to have a people's boat, so you better go for it. nothing will do without. do you think he will do it?” go for it. nothing will do without. do you think he will do it? i think he has to. but it said that people, but it said the people, it is
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speculated that he is not the one saying that at the moment. his arm is in sit at the party. after all, if he agrees to a deal without any kind of confirmation from the people, he owns it, it becomes his. all brexit will be back, any brexit that we had it will be his father as much as anyone else. does he want back? i think not. the funny thing is that theresa may have been talking tojeremy is that theresa may have been talking to jeremy corbyn today. after a long talk, his priority was not a second referendum. maybe accommodation with the customs union. a long—time referendum, not jeremy corbyn's priority. his great dilemma is whether he is do a custom unions style dealt with theresa may. he is not dead to be a lot of tory
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government. if he can split the tories down the middle, that might bea tories down the middle, that might be a price that might be worth the. the prime minister have appealed that can actually —— could have a pill that she could swallow? we know that the only think that he comes to an agreement with is the customs union. she would have to be forced to do it, but she is trying to say to do it, but she is trying to say to her backbenchers, unless you back my dell, i am going to do this. perhaps she will never go down that road, see how far she can get. the language, it is all about the language, it is all about the language in the political declaration about the future relationship. that is quite a lot of similarities in their positions. but she is trying to do is try to find language that makes the that they can both live with. jeremy corbyn would ever want to sign up to brexit because the money he does that, he
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splits his party. that is what she is trying to do. she would not go as far to agree to a customs union. she wa nts far to agree to a customs union. she wants language to makejeremy corbyn think that it will not be a bit customs union, and arrangement. as the game plant. it is a language game. i will be talking to people and a second who are in favour of the idea earlier. i think it would be an absolute disaster for labour. labour is reasonably united. some people but not vote for a referendum. but it is pretty small compared to the majority party. i think he has no choice. he cannot agree to any deal unless it has a confirmation vote. but at the second referendum loses, because those two people can make the second referendum. at that point, he has to
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choose between no deal and the guilt that he has disagreed with theresa may. what does he do dan? —— what does he do dan? i do not think they will be no deal because i do not think she wants to carry for can't buy no doubt. who would want to be prime minister, wake up next morning, find the likes of the night on... jeremy corbyn wants to get to numberten. on... jeremy corbyn wants to get to number ten. they on... jeremy corbyn wants to get to numberten. they are on... jeremy corbyn wants to get to number ten. they are not going to be very impressed with the promise of the second referendum. does he stop brexit or do whatever he can't to get back into power? i suspect you wa nt get back into power? i suspect you want him to stop brexit.” get back into power? i suspect you want him to stop brexit. i think if they come together, the vast majority of labour voters everywhere do not want brexit. there are swing
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seats, but you let loose so much the other way. you what haemorrhage votes to the greens, to the new party, to also to people. even if she does not want a no deal, if we have not got a deal, we have got no deal. that is just language. have not got a deal, we have got no deal. that isjust language. the problem that they have is that if it goes to the comments, and it has already agreed to a basic deal, and thenit already agreed to a basic deal, and then it loses on the second referendum, is a really going to vote against the deal that he has just negotiated on a basis of the second referendum because she has just been defeated by her own mps? we know that the house of commons are not actually matter. the great majority to want no deal. at the 11th hour at the 11th day, we will get a long extension, we will get whatever it takes to make that happen. i whatever it takes to make that happen. lam whatever it takes to make that happen. i am sure at the comments —— the house of commons will stop it. but what is your sense of the
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temperature constraint incredibly high. mike cabinet will not back me. you can get more manoeuvre than that. she thinks that she can scare them into backing her dale. it is a gamble. we could be looking at the end of the conservative party depending on how the next few weeks pan out. she might say it was all a ruse, i was never going to do anything. and she can then try to rebel. that could work, but if she does the deal, back and see much of my resignation. last night, we saw tori members tearing at their membership cards and putting it on social media. it will be many tories who thinks she has gone beyond the point of no return. i think the whole party is at a point of no return. let's make ——
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whole party is at a point of no return. let's make -- we do not want a long extension, we are not going to support the deal with our own faults, and do not do it to labour, but you cannot do all of those things so great that is what they have all committed to. the manifesto position with a leap with a deal. have all committed to. the manifesto position with a leap with a dealm can be the parliament, the manifestos of both parties are dead. neither of them once a majority. it is over. what happened to the two the manifesto said that we would have a smooth and orderly exit from the european union. that wasn't that manifesto. a no deal is better than a bad belt. the leaf campaign also said that there will be a dell. but
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guiding principle would say that it will be slow and cautious. that was the main thing. actually, they said we we re never the main thing. actually, they said we were never serious, that was a bruise. that no deal is that least most popular option. short—term disruption and that down at that is better than years of agony. disruption and that down at that is better than years of agonym disruption and that down at that is better than years of agony. it is interesting to see how quickly they vanish saying that i never supported that, like the medicines, allthe disasters that are likely to have been. posters will tell you that people will vanish. up that is based on the broad right of the country. i absolutely acknowledge that it is fair. no conservative leader can ignore it. it is also a question of mechanics of who owns the party. i
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think if she goes for no deal, the main site of the party will split off in main site of the party will split offina main site of the party will split off in a way that might not happen on the other way around. you might not split. thank you very much. nice to have them with us. to go through some of the debates again, very useful on a day like today but there are useful on a day like today but there a re lots of useful on a day like today but there are lots of developments in different departments and looked inside at the house of commons again. we are waiting on the result of that division. this is a division ona of that division. this is a division on a new piece of legislation to have a much longer delay for the prime minister. we are going to bring in labour format secretary who has been waiting patiently to talk to us. thank you very much. what is your take on things today? we continue to provide you with interesting material. yes, you are absolutely right. these talks
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between mr corbyn and the prime minister, they were suggesting that some of the reports, unofficial and confirmed, to those deliberations today was that he had not pressed the case for a people's votes in some form. that surprise you are not? a lot depends on how the conversation went and everyone here is about conversation. they are not a lwa ys is about conversation. they are not always shall i say very fruitful. what should mr corbyn be pressing for? he should be present for three things. he should be pressing for her to absolutely rule out snow deal, which would be outrageous for any prime minister. he should be pressing for had to seek a longer extension. the fact is that the government needs a log extension. they have masses of business that they cannot possibly get through the house in any short order. the third thing is that they should be present for the majority of labour voters and members what is a confirmatory
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bowl at the people. that will settle it once and for all. —— eight vote of the people. is this one the prime minister possibly sickness that she cannot come close to the conditions, should mr corbyn persist with the talks are say i am sorry there is not much for us to talk about?” think it may well be that they will get quickly to the stage but that is not much point. let's be blunt, the prime minister's track record of saying something which sounds like she is going to consult people, and it does not really work out like that. listening does not seem to be her strong suit. the noes to the left 311. that is the result from
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the speaker. we will hear the result from the speaker. ayes said the right 312. the noes said that left 311. ayes had it. on lock. this is a day of close results. one vote. but that the debate the bill to prevent and no dumb brexit, and a majority of one in the house of commons approving that debate. let's go back to ask but reaction. i think it has got the prime minister off the hook because most of our prime ministers are saying that this is not only a procedure that they did not like, but it was not necessary because the prime minister was perfectly
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prepared to make arrangements for the house to come to a decision. at this had not carried, maybe she would had to consider doing that. certainly, it does mean that hopefully there is a good chance of getting something through, which means she knows perfectly well she has got to have a longer extension because she cannot possibly finish all of the business that the government has to do. the best thing to do is to come clean. i know a lot of people in her party but not like it, but it is the reality. following this line parliamentary process, ie say that the fact that this is now carried, means that the house of commons could do the prime minister a favour by bailey asking or instructing for much longer delay, which of course by lots of colleagues, would be unacceptable? it seems to me that that is a possibility. certainly, the whole idea of today is to make sure that
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she does not ask for an extension because i am afraid that it has been the case over for a long time now. the prime minister says that we will do this, and it does not seem to materialise. the plant today is to make sure that asking for an extension materialises because that is what we need particularly if we accept avoid crashing out but no deal. i did not hear much of the previous conversation, but i heard that somebody arguing that that will not be a problem. i think people should remember that these reports say things are going to be very difficult at the leaf but no deal or not be published voluntarily by the government. this is the advice of civil servants warning ministers about likely developments. we have had to force the government to publish as much information as we already have. they do not want people to know the real impact of no deal, and maybe people should remember that. and indeed, the prime minister said and down the street
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last night said that there could be accessed as of no deal in the long—term. the clear hints but that in the short time, it would be hugely problematic, and that is why she was trying to seek a deal. fraser nelson, the spectators said earlier, he was suggesting that lots of the public was comfortable with the notion of a no—deal brexit, but when you and others are saying is that the reality it would be rather different. if you listen to what conservative members say, in particular, in the chamber, members of the public may say it probably will not be too bad. but members of parliament had set and here is that it might be five to ten years of disruption, but after that, it might be five to ten years of disruption, but afterthat, it it might be five to ten years of disruption, but after that, it will be fine. that is to government. quick point, she perfected the
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process in the 1990s, some will know, but others will be too young to remember, i am talking about the casting vote there. when we think of the process, how does that process and the turbulence that that cause compared with this?” and the turbulence that that cause compared with this? i am not sure that the ill feeling is not where's. —— not worse. to be honest, i always thought that that the government mishandled the way to construct and use the debates. back then, there was a small number of people, many of my hairand was a small number of people, many of my hair and making the same amount of trouble on the same issues. they were a small number who felt very strongly. on the whole, the government made its way without the government made its way without
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the kind of difficulties that we are seeing now. the atmosphere, i think, is nothing like as helplessness it has been lately. certainly not with the public, and particularly, not in here. thank you forjoining us. labourfarmer here. thank you forjoining us. labour farmer foreign secretary. just before we go to the bbc news at six with george, we have had an update on the talks with the labour and conservative teams that they will hold talks tomorrow to find a compromise for brexit. there was no decisive shift from downing street in the talks today. you can watch the rest of the date dominic debate on bbc parliament.
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tonight at six — theresa may and jeremy corbyn have been holding face—to—face talks to try to break the brexit deadlock. they disagree on most things — but today they appear to have found enough common ground to keep talking. i welcome the prime minister's off for talks following the meetings that i've held with members across this house, and look forward to meeting her later today. i welcome her willingness to compromise to resolve the brexit deadlock. but there's trouble in the air — two ministers quit the government and many more conservatives are angry at mr corbyn's involvement. if you give legitimacy to a man that i think is genuinely not fit to run britain and will do it damage, you will damage the very prospect of your own party — and most importantly for people

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