you're watching a bbc news special. as opposition parties and rebel conservatives are squaring up to the government in an attempt to seize control of proceedings so they can pass a law to stop no deal brexit. the prime minister has told mps in the commons to reject a bill that's aimed at preventing a no—deal brexit. that is what they want. to undermine out that is what they want. to undermine our negotiations and force us to beg, force us to beg for yet another pointless delay! if that happens all the progress that we've been making will have been for nothing. senior conservative mps, including the former chancellor, are among those rebelling against the government. they say they won't be swayed
by pressure from downing street. we have to act now to make sure that there is an insurance policy against a no deal crash out on the 31st october. it comes as conservative mp philip lee defects to the libdems, leaving the government with no working majority. well just ahead of an expected welljust ahead of an expected vote in the commons which could see mps to control of commons business, phillip lee crossed the floor to sit with the liberal democrats losing the working majority for the conservative government. phillip lee crossed the floor to sit with the liberal democrats as the prime minister was addressing the house. the labour leader, jeremy corbyn, said mrjohson was losing friends at home and failing to win them in europe.
well, a little earlier — my colleague huw edwards, asked philip lee — who's crossed the floor to join the liberal democrats — why he felt compelled to leave his party. i've been a member of this conservative party for 27 years. but over recent months i've increasingly felt uncomfortable about representing my constituents as a conservative member of parliament. i am elected to best represent them and i now believe strongly that i can fulfil that duty best as a member of parliament for the liberal democrat party. tell us a little about the representations that you had from senior ministers, cabinet ministers, in recent days and what kind of impact they made a new? i have not really had any representations, if i'm honest, i think they thought i was a lost cause. i strongly believe and have done, it is why i was the first to resign as a minister last year if you recall, that brexit, the brexit the public are going to get is not the brexit they were promised. and i do not think that is acceptable and that is why i think that brexit should be taken back to the public in a peoples vote in a final say. and i still strongly believe that. and the liberal democrats have been the party that have backed that approach longest.
vicki young is in the central lobby in the houses of parliament. what is happening in the commons in the next few minutes because mps will vote on whether to take control of the comms agenda to block a no—deal brexit? of the comms agenda to block a no-deal brexit? they're currently finishing a statement from education secretary about funding for schools and then they will move on to this emergency debate. it is called 5021! and normally is used for an emergency if a party wants to talk about something which they have not been given notice of but on this occasion it is going to be a bit more meaningful because there will be about attached to that and that could mean if the government is defeated that mps, backbench mps will take over the business of the commons tomorrow and as we know
they're going to try and get through they're going to try and get through the house of commons in one day a bill which would force the prime minister to go to the eu and ask for another debate to brexit until the end of january next year. if no deal has gone through parliament by the 19th of october. it has been a pretty momentous day as we heard today. we had that defection from phillip lee which means that the tories have lost their working majority. boris johnson tories have lost their working majority. borisjohnson has made it clear if he loses the vote tonight he wants to have a general election. the question is whether mps will vote for that because they have to come he needs two thirds of mps to back that call for a general election. so another busy day. then bradley is with me now. what to make a philip hammond festival suggesting this morning that people were threatening him with leaving the party. is it right that tory mps who
do not vote tonight with the government are booted out of the party went so many others have not voted with the government in the past three years. it is incredibly difficult and i have sympathy for in particular at my local colleague ken clarke who has been consistent with his views on europe since before i was born. we have got this point by leadership not grasping the nettle and brexit and decisively doing something. shame we have got to this point but for me it is clear we have to leave on the slst of october and tonight is not just to leave on the slst of october and tonight is notjust about policy but do we support the government to continue to do that or have an election. 50 continue to do that or have an election. so tonight if as we expect the government will lose. and then we have a vote in the house of commons tomorrow that mps take over. . . that commons tomorrow that mps take over... that position is this. first the honourable gentleman is rather
slow in rising when i had already called the right honourable gentleman. and typically sell i read epic and knowledge. secondly i stated honourable gentleman in terms of crystal clarity if he wishes to raise a point of order he will of course have the opportunity to do so. course have the opportunity to do so. i challenge him and to identify any occasion upon which i have sought to deny him and i do not do so. sought to deny him and i do not do so. i'm simply saying that i will ta ke so. i'm simply saying that i will take the application first and there is subsequently a ten minute rule motion before we proceed to any debate. if there be such. the honourable gentleman is never knowingly understated or not heard when he wishes to be. i will hear him. patience, sarah, it will be rewarded. sir oliver letwin. thank you mr speaker, in light of the government decision to prorogue parliament next week it has become
an urgent matter for parliament to discuss and in particularfor this house to discuss whether it can accept a no deal exit and i therefore am asking you to grant an ocean debate under standing order 2a about the matter. -- an urgent debate. i'm grateful for the application which is not entirely a matter of surprise either to members of the house or to large numbers of people outside it. i've heard what he said and i'm familiar with his rationale. and i'm satisfied that the matter is proper to be discussed under the terms of standing order number24. under the terms of standing order number 24. does the under the terms of standing order number24. does the right under the terms of standing order number 24. does the right honourable gentleman have the leave of the house?
the right honourable gentleman clearly enjoys the support of the house and i will go further, i will beat my normal generals self to the honourable number for wellingborough in advertising for those who did not hear it that the honourable gentleman was robustly objecting which he is absolutely entitled to do. so people need be no doubt that there was an objection and in the circumstances it is necessary for at least 40 members to rise in their places to support the application. there is very much larger number than 40 members rising in support so the right honourable gentleman has obtained the leave of the house. the debate will be held today is the first item of public business it will last for up to three hours. and thatis will last for up to three hours. and that is to say if it starts before seven o'clock and it will arise on a
motion that the house has considered the specified matters set out in the application by the right honourable gentleman. we now come to the ten minute rule motion. the honourable gentlemen, he is just minute rule motion. the honourable gentlemen, he isjust gesticulating ina gentlemen, he isjust gesticulating in a monthly eccentric manner but i am agog to learn more of what he wishes to race in his point of order. it was reallyjust a procedural point and i draw your attention to page 33 of the standing order number 24. when a standing order number 24. when a standing order is notified on a tuesday it has to be by 10:30am in the morning. i enquired has to be by 10:30am in the morning. ienquired in has to be by 10:30am in the morning. i enquired in the vote office after 10:30am this morning and i was told that no standing order 24 application had yet been made. though they were expecting it. so it
seems to me that under the circumstances it could not be heard today and it should have been heard tomorrow. and that was why i was trying to make the point early on. so that seems very clear. i understand the rationale of the honourable gentleman and thank him for explaining his agitation to races point as an early stage however i must advise the honourable gentleman that the responsibility of a memberseeking to gentleman that the responsibility of a member seeking to make such an application and i must admit i would have thought he would have known this, the responsibility of a member seeking to make such an application is to lodge that application with the speaker and i can advise the honourable gentleman that that application was lodged with me and
my office yesterday evening. so it was well in time and moreover i hope i carry the house with me in observing that whatever people think of the right honourable gentleman the member for dorset west, his courtesy is unsurpassed by any other memberof his courtesy is unsurpassed by any other member of his house. and it was partly on account of that courtesy and because he wanted his intention is to be entirely intelligible that he was keen that his motion if judged orderly should be published as early as possible and it was published some hours ago. so the honourable gentleman has had a good try but i think his efforts on this occasion on that point have been exhausted. and i would suggest that the courteous thing now to do would be to proceed with certain minute dash the ten minute rule motion with
which the honourable gentleman has been patiently waiting. ten rule motion. we were just leave the commons for a few minutes while that te na nt rule commons for a few minutes while that tenant rule bill is discussed. the important news that the speaker has granted that debate on a standing order at number 24 from oliver letwi n order at number 24 from oliver letwin so it is an urgent debate which will get under way shortly. it will go on for three hours, effectively it will end with mps voting on whether to take control of the commons agenda with a view to passing legislation to block a no—deal brexit on october the 31st. all quite technical but that is why it matters. let's go back to vicki young. as the speaker were saying not a great surprise that this application was made or that he granted it. that is right and you could hear some toy brexiteers challenging it and saying it should not be discussed in this way and
should not be discussed now. it is still pretty controversial and some feel that the speaker is bending the rules and pushing conventions to the limit. he would argue he is determined to give mps, backbench mpsa determined to give mps, backbench mps a say on an incredibly important issue. ben bradley and alison mcgovernjoin me now, the speaker is bending the rules? well our constitution always changes in this way and this is not really unprecedented, but we are doing is using the standing orders in a new way but it is not unprecedented. but in the end this is not about parliamentary procedure. this is about the substance of the issue and thatis about the substance of the issue and that is my constituents and their jobs and people particular work in manufacturing for whom no deal would be just catastrophic. we also know it would affect food prices and we've already got a problem with food banks in the country so the
parliamentary procedural aspects are one thing but much more important to me is what we're trying to do which is to say no to no deal because of impact our country. boris johnson who has not gone through a general election, he is trying to potentially get something through which is controversial and which cannot be sure people voted for even those who voted for brexit. that is not ready democracy some would say. your assuming that is pushing for no deal and that is not what he is saying. at the end of the date we have to grasp the nettle and the best way to get a deal is to have that threat on the table. alison spoke about it not being an issue, parliamentary proceedings but boris has been slated for doing something similar in terms of progression. it seems to beat one rule for one and the speaker certainly has meddled in terms of $024 and normally bees are not decisive debates with the vote.
there is a lot of meddling going on. what you say to people who would argue that many mps in their did vote to trigger article 50 and they have refused to back the deal and actually they take responsibility partly for the fact that you have a prime minister now willing to go with no deal. all of us in british politics bear responsibility for this so what mps are trying to do is to find a way to come to a better compromise and without wrecking over old ground. the mistakes were made when the red lines were drawn without cross—party when the red lines were drawn without cross— party consensus when the red lines were drawn without cross—party consensus so it be jointly what brexit would mean for that now when the situation where a small number of people are saying that the only proper brexit is no deal. i do not recognise that, ido is no deal. i do not recognise that, i do not recognise the idea that people voted for the kind of consequences that no deal could bring about. one alternative is
another three—month delay and some people will say what on earth for, what is the point. that is why i have argued for a single market customs union brexit and argued that if there is a prime minister who has a deal that they think is good enough then they should give the public the final say and ratify that because there is no doubt that we had a referendum in 2016 and then a general election in 2017 and we have beenin general election in 2017 and we have been in the situation of having a hung parliament that has made brexit very difficult ever since so there are ways out of this but the problem we have is that instead of trying to find one, borisjohnson is kowtowing to quite a small group of people in his own party and nigel farage and the brexit party. and that is the problem rather than saying ok, what isa kind problem rather than saying ok, what is a kind of way of dealing with brexit that we could get the vast majority of mps brexit that we could get the vast majority of mp5 on board with and then get back to things that people really care about like schools and health service. by delaying for
another three months your assuming that boris is pushing for no deal but that is not what he said in his statement. what evidence is that that he is going for a deal, you had philip hammond saying there is no evidence that he is trying to get a deal. he might have got on well with emmanuel macron in biarritz but that is not the same as going to brussels with serious proposals. theresa may tried for a long time to conduct this negotiation in the public domain and it does not work. you cannot release details and then parliament standing up to say it is i'io parliament standing up to say it is no good and the european parliament before even a proper discussion, it has to be done in a professional way because people around the table before it can be out in the public domain. theresa established her red line which meant there could be no ci’oss line which meant there could be no cross party consensus line which meant there could be no cfoss party consensus on line which meant there could be no cross party consensus on what brexit was. then boris johnson cross party consensus on what brexit was. then borisjohnson has let nigel farage write his red lines which the labour party will definitely not sign up to. his red lines are the only thing that got a
majority in the house. would you vote tomorrow for a general election? if it means we are going to crash out with no deal that we cannot allow a general election on october the 14th. my red line would be i'll be able to stop no deal. that is what we're doing today and we will have to have a general election, we need it at some point because we have a hung parliament and in the british system that does not work well but not falling into the trap set by boris johnson to a child —— to allow no deal. the trap set by boris johnson to a child -- to allow no deal. vicki young there. let's get more on this now with the former head of press at number 10, giles kenningham. talkradio presenter and political commentator, daisy mcandrew, joins me now from westminster. mps are debating whether they will seize control of the agenda to push through this legislation. you think
they have the numbers and can do that? well the government are moving the narrative now onto the general election. it seems labour are shifting their position on that. so they will not vote for that and that leaves the government in a bind. they will not vote for that and that leaves the government in a bindm could be a complete mess. is that how you see it? i think it is probably going pretty much as number ten predicted. the way i see it is they are going for something of a scorched earth policy whereby they think a lot of these tory rebels are going to rebel and they may as well force them out. a lot of those mps who we know in fact we saw in the commons chamber they stood up when the speaker said who is in favour of this bill. by standing up they were declaring that they were going to vote against their own party. i think many of those mps are just thinking to help with it, my career asa thinking to help with it, my career as a politician is pretty much over i'iow as a politician is pretty much over now borisjohnson is as a politician is pretty much over now boris johnson is a as a politician is pretty much over now borisjohnson is a number ten so
imight as now borisjohnson is a number ten so i might as well go down fighting. so i think tonight as everyone is saying we're definitely going to see a defeat for the government but whether or not number ten will be devastated by that i'm so sure. an interesting point because there is a school of thought saying that downing street all along have wanted a general election very soon. downing street all along have wanted a general election very soonlj think it is incredibly volatile atmosphere at the moment. and with a general election to worry about labour, a resurgent liberal democrat party, the snp in scotland. ms davidson standing down put think john curtice said that the tories could lose 56 seats so a big roll of the dice for the borisjohnson would go to the pills and it could be the shortest serving prime minister in history. daisy, do you think that this would be a gamble that boris johnson would win if he went for an election on october the 14th?|j