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tv   Dateline London  BBC News  October 13, 2019 2:30am-3:01am BST

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or nigerians, or calling isis arabs? or is the term being used consciously to make some pressure on turkey? doctor hussein you said that turkey has no problem with kurds for that question there is saying, you are saying everybody is the same. there is this fake verses in the western media outlets not about you but others. they are saying that there is turkey on the one side and there are other kurds on the other side. which is a totally false verse actually because if you look at the situation there are 200,000 syrian kurds. right now living in turkey, and some of them escaped from the peabody. they monopolised political power in northern syria, they got rid of many dissidents and those people sought shelter in turkey was even the body does make the founding person of the people idea, his own brother lives in turkey. he ran away from the pid persecution. they are
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opposed from the human rights source, the point is in a nutshell, it's not turkey versus the kurds, it is turkey and turkey kurds and arabs, this kind of block versus the peabody. let's go to another question. please, if you could have the microphone. i wonder about the sta kes the microphone. i wonder about the stakes involved in turkey '5 refreshment with stakes involved in turkey 's refreshment with asia or the circle shot palace of eurasia. are there any risks involved and if yes, what are they? and how is it perceived in general in european capitals? who would like to us that first? since russia and turkey is a big topic, professor? i believe turkey should have solid lines and that alliances with the west. with the western democracy, western civilisation,
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that was the main historical aspiration of the turkish public stop i know that we have some tensions with the west recently in the last couple of decades, both with the european union and the united states. but i am sure there are not —— they are not good and we should be able to sort them out and have a close relationship with europe. and indeed, even the ultimate empire had an aspiration to go west. the closer we are with the worst in the stronger shall be. the closer we are to the west, the more we shall be expected in the middle east. the closer we are to the west, will be even stronger, even in eurasia. ok, we have tensions, for example, some things which are provided to some other allies in our
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alignment otherwise not provided you turkey and we are sad about it but i'm sure those will be sorted out.” will answer from the turkish public opinion angle again. whenever there is distress, troubles, inside turkey or around turkey, the public support for the eu membership or around turkey, the public support forthe eu membership goes or around turkey, the public support for the eu membership goes up. or around turkey, the public support forthe eu membership goes up. and again in the recent years, after the coup attempt, the public opinion polls show that the support for european union membership is increasing. it's around 65%, it's fluctuating but it's around there. but the turkish public also feels as i mentioned before, neglected. so they feel abandoned by also the european union and they think they will never be become —— they will never become a member. that the eu is hypocritical about membership issues. but at the same time that it
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regard russia as an ally as well. just according to the recent numbers of metropole, the recent reports, september report, 73% of the turkish public regard russia as an enemy. so, alliances of that sort hasn't stuck up for the turkish public. they see their future as part of the western alliance although they suspect the alliance. more so the western alliance is not a good road. more in the european future, let's say. this still to the east of the tilt to the west? when i was an ambassador in this country, spent a lot of my time trying to work with the turkish government and the european union colleagues to try and get negotiations begun. and we succeeded in doing that. in october 2005. those negotiations have gone slowly and were not there yet, but i was convinced that if turkey met the standards for membership of the
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european union, that there was no reason why turkey should not be admitted. not every other european union country agreed with that but i also felt that in the end, turkey did not become a member and i don't know whether it still does today... they have frozen talks, haven't they? the actual negotiations are still just about alive. my point was that by meeting the standards for membership, turkey itself would be a better and more prosperous and free country. therefore it was a very good objective to pursue. at the same time, let's remember if you get ona train same time, let's remember if you get on a train in istanbul and had east, it is said you can get all the weather, speaking turkish and begging yourself understood. so we need to remember a little bit where turkey ‘s roots are and i think it's perfectly normal that this remarkable country soon stick with many of the turkish speaking other central asian countries and develop its cultural and business links. turkish companies are hugely successful in russia and other parts of central asia. that is all good,
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it doesn't need to be a choice. in the last and i will say is that turkey is a member of a number of western institutions, the council of europe, nato, maybe one day the european union but that's usually precious to those countries. it's important for turkey to and i do not wa nt to important for turkey to and i do not want to see it developing relationship to the other in the region that undermined the important contribution it you nato. hussein, question was about to cater present with eurasia, we think about the sale of the s 400 missile defence system that turkey bought from russia which upset the united states and nato and so on, so how do you a nswer and nato and so on, so how do you answer this question question mark turkey had traditionally been a western country. taking its role in the western institutions, the second largest army of nato, and a long time almost forever, candidates country for the eu. we had good relations with the west. but turkey 's recruitment with russia was not turkey 's original intention. if you ask my opinion, i think turkey was pushed towards russia by its western
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powers. we have this deep crisis in november 2015 in terms of downing the russianjet, november 2015 in terms of downing the russian jet, turkey november 2015 in terms of downing the russianjet, turkey don't do it allies but they dismantled patriot missiles, and turkey wanted to buy, wanted to purchase patented missiles from the united states. they did not sell those pieces to us and turkey had no choice but to start this approach meant with russia. if you ask what's going on right now, is turkey now turning against the west? no. turkey is not categorising the world in terms of good guys versus bad guys. turkey has legitimate interest like every country has and if it can work out over those interests with russia, we will do it. if we do it with united states... it's more about issue specific abridgement. can we get another question question mark your question is about the european union. my question is why is turkey not a member of the european union?
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so peter? i think there's two or three reasons, one is all that we got off to a good start would be open negotiations during the british presidents and the european union in october 2005, i think it was, things began to falter soon afterwards for one very specific reason, which was cyprus. because in my view unfortunately, even though the greek cypriots vetoed the united nations plan for a settlement of a cyprus problem, greek cyprus joined plan for a settlement of a cyprus problem, greek cyprusjoined the european union and then they became an issue of member states solidarity and a numberof an issue of member states solidarity and a number of obligations on turkey to recognise that state of affairs or stop turkey found this politically extremely difficult and they became complicated series of negotiations over the next few years which slowed things down. that was one point. a second point was that i think in many other european countries, the enthusiasm which we had to kind of press for as brits,
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began to wane. the opinion had grown fast, the united kingdom reckoned that one of the great achievements of the european union was in large promotion of democracy and freedom has many countries as possible, not least to formally detract from the commonest bottles of many european countries were that it is yes to get some thought turkey was to be, to muslim and too poor. and the third reason why turkey hasn't yet become a memberof the reason why turkey hasn't yet become a member of the european union is that i'm afraid over the years after the negotiations began, turkey did begin to go backwards in terms of meeting what you would call the copenhagen criteria, in terms of rule of law, human rights, freedom of expression and so on. and so that has slowed the process. personally, i would still love to see turkey being a memberof i would still love to see turkey being a member of the european union one of these days but i'm not sure i got much right to say that because my own country and —— appears to be oi'i my own country and —— appears to be on the verge of leaving. to my regret was to professor, why is turkey not part of the european union? do large extent i agree with
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sir peter, turkey is to be, to was slim and third one to four. i don't agree with that totally. one very important then, the cold war is over, if the cold war was still going on, turkey would become a full member, irrespective of the loss of rule of law, loss of democracy deficiency of democracy and so on. the cold war made turkey very important for the west but now cold war is no more valid. but i do believe that europe needs turkey if they could be conscious or aware of it. turkey is an important ally, an important country here in the edge of europe, and it should be embraced. will in the future europe except turkey is a full member? i
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doubt it. i doubted because europe has its own crisis. it has integrity problems. integration problems, and it seems very unlikely for turkey to become a full member of the european union. and it does lack some of the political requirements which the european union needs. especially rule of law and freedom in turkey. freedom of press, freedom of expression and so on. is a very important issues in europe because the other values of europe. in turkey in the last couple of decades had gone down, declined. this pre—empts a point that our next question wants to raise. if i could ask that question please? my question is what is the effectiveness and the utility of
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president erdogan‘s so—called near ottoman ‘s policy? president erdogan‘s so—called near ottoman 's policy? near ottoman is, before everyone reaches for the dictionary, you may not be familiar with that. it's a reference we have heard that the president styled himself as a malted —— modern day sultan of the ottoman empire and that application is authoritarian rule and autocratic rule. building relations with the muslim neighbours. and trying to assert himself as a supreme power as it we re himself as a supreme power as it were among muslim neighbours. domestic and regional aspect that question. i think that is one for you. hussein, i know you're not a spokesperson for the ruling act party but you do work in a think tank is very close to government thinking. so, your answer please? it's an independent thinker and nobody is and i government, i'm not pro—government. on the point of near
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ottoman aspirations, is a bit of an exaggeration. what turkey is doing right now actually for a while, turkey is now building some relations with its forgotten neighbours. for so long turkey turned its back to its eastern neighbours which was a wrong policy. but right now if turkey built some sort of institutions which might be a trigger for cultural relations, educational programmes, a mode of this programme is turkey is rebuilding its bridges. but its forgotten neighbours. it is turning out good, i think this topic instead of forgetting those relations with the countries of, even more, the president is quite popular in the balkans, in those african bases. i ama balkans, in those african bases. i am a student from some other, and he told me that if there is the president running against another presidential candidate, he will win. he likes as some ——he dislikes the
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somalian president very much. for this reason it is good not to build an empire again but building relations. there is an internal aspect to that question of the authoritarian, autocratic tendencies. domestically as well. as a journalist we do feel that side, let's say. as far as the residents of near ottoman is, we can say, it's becoming a passe thing, it's rather attributed to the period of the former prime minister of turkey. we don't have the institution of payment history to start with so things are changing fast in turkey. and near ottoman —ism is not the idea the moment. and i think it has lost its appeal with the conservative circles, more
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nationalists circles as well. it has tried and it didn't work, and now i mentioned before there is a valuable isolation, so to say, that turkey is betrayed, turkey is not, in a way supported by anyone and it's going its own way. i think that is now the new motor in the foreign policy. let me mention some ottoman states. egypt, libya, syria, israeland yemen. these other provinces which the ottoman empire consisting of. we don't have ambassadors for those countries. i think it's a sufficient answer. i have a reaction to that. right now, turkey doesn't have an ambassador in some of those places,
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in syria and libya, but there's civil war in many of them. look at what happened to the american ambassador in libya, they killed the quy- ambassador in libya, they killed the guy. yes, the point is some of these countries like israel turkey has mutual problems, but for some there's civil war and some european countries also don't have a spot there. it isn't just countries also don't have a spot there. it isn'tjust turkey. other countries do have ambassadors there. not all of them. the united states suffered from this, like many countries, including turkey. question from beryl, a journalist here in turkey, and she has sent this question which is, as the crackdown on journalism escalates, such groups as lawyers and human rights defendants are being targeted by the government. her question is how do you cover this ongoing crisis and draw attention to make people ca re and draw attention to make people care and what is the responsibility of western powers in that? hussain, this is a regular criticism, regular and robust, that turkey's record on
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freedom of speech which has already been alluded to is not a great one. again, in my opinion, there is some. . . again, in my opinion, there is some... right now in turkey there's a very lively political scene. the governing party lost in stan ball, the biggest country, —— biggest city in the country, and the next elections, the governing party might lose —— istanbul. that is democracy. in terms ofjournalism, yes, there's some journalists in terms ofjournalism, yes, there's somejournalists in prison now, but theissue somejournalists in prison now, but the issue is, let me give you an example... there's this newspaper being published not in turkey. it is forbidden, criminalised, it's in germany. in the headlines it is saying the ak party officers are all terrorists. that's notjournalism. the pkk, this is the pkk media outlet organisation, and the pkk killed 37 ak party officers, kurds,
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killing kurdish people for supporting that party and those newspapers orjournals, supporting that party and those newspapers or journals, they supporting that party and those newspapers orjournals, they are making propaganda for that and for that reason some of these organisations were shut down, including pro— pkk sources and the four tula terror organisation behind the coup d'etat of 2015. they are all terrorists, notjournalists, because there are 250 —— 150. all terrorists, notjournalists, because there are 250 -- 150. it's not the most democratic country in the world. the pro for chula or they showed the targets, the hit list of the pkk on their front pages. when you say terrorists, not journalists. you work on independent media platforms, what is your response? of course turkey has
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legitimate security concerns and we are all united in that. for example, for my part, the koop attempt was a big shock and i never thought i would see that in my lifetime. i thought that period of turkey's history was over for good but it didn't turn out to be that way. that doesn't also legitimise that now, according to the international press institute, the ipi numbers, 130 journalists are in prison today. human rights activists aren't enemies, norare human rights activists aren't enemies, nor are journalists. i human rights activists aren't enemies, norarejournalists. iwish they had more power and influence over turkey's history, i mean human rights activists organisations and also the journalist. there was never such a power anyway to begin with, andl such a power anyway to begin with, and i don't think by and large the press and the ngos have used their leverage in a negative way. do you feel any restrictions yourself personally in your work as a journalist and broadcaster? first of
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all, it's notjust about censorship, it's about the erosion of institutions. the media has eroded toa institutions. the media has eroded to a large extent the institutions themselves and journalism and ethics have gone way down. that's counter—productive have gone way down. that's counter— productive for the government because i've participated in some recent studies and focus groups in syria and i see government supporters themselves are not really believing in the media. they might believing in the media. they might be consuming pro—government media i'iews be consuming pro—government media news 011 be consuming pro—government media news on syria, but they aren't believing in that. trust in the media is very, very low, so they're turning increasingly to social media. i don't think that anybody is suggesting that there is fascism in turkey, but there is rising authoritarianism. those two things are completely different. what do we understand by authoritarianism? we understand by authoritarianism? we understand there is a sufficient freedom of press and we understand
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there is no monopolisation —— monopolisation of the press, the media, and there is certain restrictions on freedom of expression. for example, there's a case by someone who is still in prison... explain who he is. he supported some protests in turkey and he is still in prison. he is not directly involved in terrorism or armament, but he is still in prison. more than 100 websites are being pulled in turkey. let me tell you one, you all know it, wikipedia. in turkey, you can't look up anything and search through wikipedia. you know all our european counterparts can look at wikipedia. blue well, ask the president. you know the answer? there was an insulting
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thing. it was about the president. another figure is the personal applications to the european court of human rights. turkey is the numberfour of human rights. turkey is the number four country, yes? there's russia, ukraine and another country, but turkey has the fourth largest numberthere. but turkey has the fourth largest number there. who or what do you blame for all of this? not myself, not myself! nobody is. you from saying what you want to now.|j wouldn't blame the opposition parties. i wouldn't blame the soccer players. i would naturally blame the government. in democracies, you blame the government for something going wrong in the country. it should be corrected that people should be corrected that people should have more rights, more freedom and application for the human rights supports that. hussain?
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thinking of wikipedia, as far as i remember, there were two issues. one was insulting the founding father of turkey, ataturk. turkey asked them to ta ke turkey, ataturk. turkey asked them to take down that page, that was one issue, but the other was financial. we had a similar issue with youtube and turkish officers said if you're making millions of dollars in turkey, you should have an office in turkey, you should have an office in turkey and pay your taxes. turkey made this deal and youtube opened again, that's a financial matter. my last line on that, if you're allowing isis to operate newspapers in the uk, germany or france, then you cannot expect turkey to allow the pkk or fatah to run newspapers. peter, you haven't replied on this point about press freedoms and human rights in general. point about wikipedia, it is simply not about tax. wikipedia is a not—for—profit
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and those using it are often asked to make a contribution. i think it isa to make a contribution. i think it is a great shame and i found that to my cost this afternoon when doing some research that i couldn't get into wikipedia, which is an important part of my life, especially as i'm no longer part of an organisation and just an individual and need to find data wherever i can. that's a shame. reputationally, it distresses me as a friend of this country that turkey regulates the bottom of the table when it comes to number of journalists injail and when it comes to number of journalists in jail and press freedoms and so on —— regularly it's. i think that independent newspapers and tv channels have been taken newspapers and tv channels have been ta ken over by newspapers and tv channels have been taken over by groups seeming not so keen on pluralism and freedom of expression as they have in the past —— regularly hits. i thought after the murder of froggy and the correct response by the turkish government that that would not only be seen as an outrageous merger but also an attack press freedom —— jamal
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khashoggi. we have more constraints on press freedom that's unnecessary and an honest, open and well—informed debate in an informed society are fundamental for a healthy, prosperous and vibrant society and i would like to turkey going back in that direction. let's get reaction from the audience on this issue. the question we gave on this issue. the question we gave on social media was about the crackdown on journalists, as well as lawyers and human rights defenders who feel the situation is very compromised in turkey. put your hand up compromised in turkey. put your hand up if you want to say something. hand the microphone to that gentleman. i agree with sir peter on the wikipedia issue, because the organisation is a non—profit organisation is a non—profit organisation which asks for contributions from the users of the website. it is a purely political reason behind that. my concern is that there is a really growing
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multiple ovation of media in turkey that doesn't seem to concern the general population —— multiplication. i would argue that the fact that we have this programme being... it has relative freedom of expression being able to be done here in the centre of istanbul is only because the bbc is an international organisation. a turkish tv channel wouldn't be able to make such a free tv programme. thank you to all my panel and that brings this addition to an end on tu rkey's role brings this addition to an end on turkey's role as a regional power. a very appropriate discussion to be having given the recent developments. thank you to my panel and my audience here in istanbul and, of course, to all of you wherever you're watching or listening on tv, radio or online.
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from me, zeinab badawi, and the rest of the global questions team, goodbye. hello. that we can ? ?nosapce ‘s weather continues on that fairly unsettled, autumnal note. more rainfall sunday and this comes from anglesey —— the weekend ? ? nosapce ‘s and this comes from anglesey —— the weekend ? ?nosapce ‘s weather. many places will see rain at times on sunday but more sunshine and dry weather later, especially in the south and west. we won't all see the rainfall but generally through the day we've got low pressure still in charge setting out to the west and a couple of weather fronts to watch out for today, producing heavy bursts. first thing sunday morning
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we've got clear spells initially for the far south—east of england and parts of east anglia but the rain will soon sweep in here and as it moves north and east across the bulk of england and wales, it will bring showers to eastern parts of northern ireland and southern and eastern scotland. further north and west in scotla nd scotland. further north and west in scotland and northern ireland, sunny skies and sunshine returning to england and wales late in the day. the wind is less of a feature but blustery conditions in the south during sunday afternoon in particular. temps around 11—16. fairly typicalfor the particular. temps around 11—16. fairly typical for the time of year but feeling cheerily where you're stuck under the cloud and rain, especially for the north—east of milan and scotland. that area of rain should clearfrom milan and scotland. that area of rain should clear from the north the sunday night and into early monday —— north—east of england and scotland. some mist and fog and the touch of frost in northern scotland possible. this is how we start monday and initially mostly dry but low pressure not far away and we
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have this wading weather front close to the south—east of england. that's going to bring us some possibly heavy and thundery bursts of rain. keepin heavy and thundery bursts of rain. keep in touch with that forecast in the south—east. rain expected for parts of northern england, perhaps temperature and cornwall will be affected but in parts of northern england, north wales and much of scotla nd england, north wales and much of scotland not bad with sunshine and highs of around 12—16 on monday. low pressure sticks around for much of the week ahead. still unsettled with showery rain. some will see dry weather at least for a time on tuesday and those temperatures, fairly typical, generally in the mid—teens. bye for now.
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hello and welcome to bbc news. i'm maryam moshiri. kurds — who're under attack from turkey in northern syria — say they will no longer prioritise guarding detainees from the islamic state group, if the offensive continues. since hostilities began on wednesday, nearly 50 civilians are thought to have died on both sides of the frontier, and more than 100,000 people have fled their homes. much of the latest fighting has been in ras al—ain. our correspondent orla guerin is on the turkish side of the border. her report contains flashing images.

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