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tv   BBC News Special  BBC News  October 19, 2019 1:15pm-4:30pm BST

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could lead to be a trap door to a note deal because of the lack of backstop. if there is no trade agreement by december 2020, that is. of course we have had many people speaking in favour of the deal. borisjohnson speaking in favour of the deal. boris johnson saying speaking in favour of the deal. borisjohnson saying it is now time to back this deal. just draw a line under what is going on. we also seeing here in central huge numbers of people protesting on the streets, calling now for a second referendum and a vote might come on that today or in the next few days. whether we will get a final vote on boris johnson's deal today is still not clear, but coverage continues on bbc one. welcome to westminster for this bbc news special as the house of commons sits on a saturday in emergency session to debate the prime minister's new brexit deal.
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borisjohnson went to parliament to tell mps that a further delay would be corrosive, and it was time to get brexit done, but labour said it couldn't support a deal which would damage the uk. and now is the time for this great house of commons to come together and bring the country together today. today's session will last for several hours, at the end of which mps will decide whether the prime minister's deal needs greater scrutiny before it is formally approved. he has renegotiated the withdrawal agreement and made it even worse. he's renegotiated the political declaration and made that even worse. it's the first time in 37 years that the commons is sitting on a saturday.
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the result of the main vote on brexit deal is on a knife—edge and there's still the possibility that brexit could be delayed. and as the parliamentary debate goes on, thousands of protestors are making their way to westminster, campaigning for a second referendum on the outcome of the brexit process. we'll bring you the latest from the palace of westminster and reaction from around the uk and the rest of the european union, so stay with us. welcome to viewers around the uk — and indeed around the globe, on bbc world — as we follow this historic debate at westminster, where mps are sitting on a saturday for the first time since the falklands conflict in 1982, to debate the brexit agreement that borisjohnson brought back from brussels earlier this week. all eyes are on the palace of westminster — home of the two chambers of the united kingdom parliament — where once again the brexit process, which started over three years ago,
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is proving to be difficult to predict. and even today we could be in a position where mps do not give a formal yes or no to boris johnson's deal. as we can see, thousands of people congregating around westminster to make their case for a second referendum. we meet here —— that we may hear that reflected in the commons. so let's take a closer look at what's going on in parliament this afternoon. mps are expected to be voting on the brexit agreement that borisjohnson secured with the eu earlier this week. the parliamentary numbers are extremely tight for the prime minister — it's by no means clear that he'll secure the votes needed to pass the motion. in this new deal, the whole of the uk would leave the eu customs union. this means the uk would be able to strike trade deals with other countries in the future.
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there would be a legal customs border between northern ireland and the republic of ireland. but in practice that border would be between britain and the island of ireland, with goods being checked at points of entry in northern ireland. lets go straight to the house of commons. theresa may speaking for the first time in public on this debate. i thought that perhaps a consensus had come across the whole of the house and it had already been decided that this deal would be supported by the house tonight. u nfortu nately, supported by the house tonight. unfortunately, my view on that was premature and i think only premature, but happily for england, of course, it was a reference to jonny may having scored the first two tries in our victory against australia. i hope the whole house will forgive me that's i say standing here i have a distinct sense of deja vu. i know how you feel!
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laughter but today's vote is an important one. . . laughter i intend to rebel against all of those who don't want to vote to deliver brexit. cheering mr speaker, today's vote is important. the eyes of the country, the eyes of the wider world, they are on us. everyone the eyes of the wider world, they are on us. everyone in this house has a responsibility in the decision they will take to determine whether oi’ they will take to determine whether or not they will put the national interest first. and notjust an ideological or a single issue or a party political interest, but the full wider interests of our constituents. and as we look at this... as we look at this issue, it is something... the decision we take tonight will decide not just the future of our country and for future lives of our constituents, but i believe the very future of our
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politics. because we have today to ta ke politics. because we have today to take a key decision, and it is simple. do we want to deliver brexit? do we want to deliver on the result of the referendum in 2016? we know the views of the scottish nationalist party. they reject results of referenda. they have... when this house voted overwhelmingly to give the choice of our membership of the eu to the british people, did we really mean it? when we voted to trigger article 50, did we really mean it was yellow when the two main parties represented in this house stood on manifestos in the 2017 general election to deliver brexit, did we really mean it? i think there can only be one answer to that, and thatis can only be one answer to that, and that is yes, we did mean it. yes, we keep faith with the british people.
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yes, we want to deliver brexit. because if... know, i'm... if the right honourable lady willjust because if... know, i'm... if the right honourable lady will just wait for a minute. if this parliament did not mean it, then it is guilty of the most egregious con trick on the british people. there have been many views across this house. i want to say simply to some of the groups involved, there are those, some of whom believe passionately and have for some time, others who have come to this more lately, that they should be a second referendum. i say simply, you cannot have a second referendum simply because some people do not agree with the result of the first. i don't like... there are many people who wanted to speak so are many people who wanted to speak soi are many people who wanted to speak so i will carry on. i've taken many interventions and questions across here over time. none have been worth it! i don't like referenda, but i think if you have one, you should
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abide by the result that people have given you. then there is the labour party front bench. i have heard much from the labour party front bench over the last three years about the importance of protecting jobs, manufacturing, people's livelihoods. if they really meant that they would have voted for the deal earlier in the year. now is their chance to show whether they really care about people by voting for this deal tonight in this house does macro this afternoon, i hope, mr speaker. in this house of commons. i say to all of those across this house who say they do not want to know deal. i have said it before, i have said as many times. i hope this is the last timei many times. i hope this is the last time i have to say it. if you don't wa nt time i have to say it. if you don't want note deal, you have to vote for a deal. businesses are carrying out for sedative. people want certainty in their lives. —— businesses are
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crying out for a certainty. they wa nt to crying out for a certainty. they want to know this country is moving forward. if you want to deliver brexit, keep faith with the british people, if you want this country to move forward, then vote for the deal today! cheering thank you. studio: there was a lot of interest understandably by that contribution by theresa may. the first time she has spoken in the commons since she left office of prime minister. making it quite clear that that in her view the result of that referendum back in 2016, although it is three and a half years ago, must be respected. and that is her line. there was a hint of irony that mrs mate was reflecting on the fact that clearly this deal is not that different to the deal she presented to the house several times and the house turned down. laura kuenssberg is with me. that was an interesting intervention. basically boris johnson is looking up in some
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admiration and gratitude at mrs may for the contribution. it almost seemed as if he was saying to her and saying thanks. that is exactly the case he has made to mps since he moved into number 10, that the public was given a choice. they chose to vote to leave the european union, and therefore he thinks mps don't have any excuse but to vote for the deal he got with the eu. but he knows full well opposite the benches in front of him, even some behind him still have grave doubts about it. and the vote today is likely to be extremely, extremely close. i don't want to joke around and say it might be 48—52, percentage wise, but it really is that narrow. that will only happen after they vote on whether or not to delay even before they get to the final thumbs delay even before they get to the finalthumbs up orthumbs delay even before they get to the final thumbs up or thumbs down. to help viewers on that, clearly the choreography is very important. before we get to any debate on the
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actual deal, there will be a vote before that on an amendment by sir oliver letwin, which in effect has the purpose of delaying the process a little more so that mps can have more time to scrutinise a. that's right. according to number 10 it essentially makes what should be a meaningful vote that would legally say, yes, we accept this deal, yes, we are leaving at halloween, into a meaningless vote. what the actual proposal is, is to say to the government, well, we might quite like your deal but we will not give ita like your deal but we will not give it a legal force until all of the laws that would bring it into force have also passed through the house of commons. that is a process that would probably take ten days or so and it is basically setting a much higher barfor the and it is basically setting a much higher bar for the government because it is one thing for boris johnson to get mps over the line to say, yeah, your deal is fine, let's push ahead but another thing to get them to say yes, your deal is fine, let's push ahead but we also agree with every single tiny detail of all
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the new laws that have to be brought in to give effect to our departure from the eu. mps, they have moved the goalposts. let's be clear. what if they vote for the letwin amendment, what then happens to the main motion that mrjohnson once passed? if mps vote to delay, this insurance policy that oliver letwin wa nts to insurance policy that oliver letwin wants to put forward, the government cannot cancel the vote later on. they cannot pull the motion, as it's known. that will happen. what downing street sources have told me is what they plan to do in that case is what they plan to do in that case is to say to their mps, go home, this is a farce. there is no point continuing because what parliament has shown this morning is all they are has shown this morning is all they a re interested has shown this morning is all they are interested in is having another delay, moving the goalposts and making it even harder. that first result on that letwin amendment will have a huge impact on the rest of the course of the day. if that happens the government's plan is then to bring that bill, all of the
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legislation that has to go through to make this happen, to parliament on monday and to make what was going to be super saturday into a decisive vote on tuesday. try again tuesday, torture tuesday, whatever you want torture tuesday, whatever you want to call it. this really hangs on this first vote, if that is clear enough? i don't know, we are doing oui’ enough? i don't know, we are doing our best to. it's clear, thank you. i'm wondering how realistic it is to bring that huge block of stuff forward in a few days. well, here's the thing. laws going through parliament have lots of different stages. the vote on tuesday would be on what is called the second reading, and that is before you would be into the really complicated guts of it. at that point the government believes they could get a legally binding... not quite binding but more a broad brush, a legally binding decision from the house of commons to say this is going to happen. once laws start going
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through parliament, mps can then helpfully put down their own suggestions and have the votes in all sorts of things. it makes it ha rd to all sorts of things. it makes it hard to wrangle and predict as this whole process has been. hard to wrangle and predict as this whole process has beenlj hard to wrangle and predict as this whole process has been. i will let you go in a second because i know you go in a second because i know you are busy, to say the least. when can we expect some kind of vote? what is your sense of the timings? round about 2:30pm, in about one hour. it could run a bit longer and there is no official cut—off date, so we there is no official cut—off date, so we will be here for as long as we need to be! the thing to look out for is a michael gove, it was the prime minister's sort of effective deputy, he will be winding up for the government, probably winding up another lot of people. he will be closing the government —— closing the debate. as soon as you see him on his feet we are into the finale before the votes. thanks, laura. you can see behind me plenty of protesters because this has been a familiar feature protesters because this has been a familiarfeature in protesters because this has been a familiar feature in westminster over recent months. not just familiar feature in westminster over recent months. notjust those people who are in favour of another
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referendum, which is the purpose of today's a big march and demonstration, but also those people who are very angry about the fact that brexit still hasn't been delivered. we have heard those voices over the previous months and they are represented here at westminster again today. though this big march we are looking at is all to do with what they call a people's vote. calling a second referendum on whatever the deal is passed or not today. that is a different kind of opposition that people are marching on. we will talk about that later. i mentioned at the start of the programme that we are broadcasting around the uk but also throughout the world on bbc world and lots of eyesin the world on bbc world and lots of eyes in brussels on what is happening today given the summit that we were attending just a few days ago and i was there with my colleague katia adler discussing the outcome of that summit and she joins
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us now. we are still not certain what will happen at the end of this debate and we are still not certain whether borisjohnson will get we are still not certain whether boris johnson will get the vote we are still not certain whether borisjohnson will get the vote he needs and we were discussing earlier this week about the readiness or a lack of it between european leaders to allow this process to drag on even more and your suggestion then was they would not shut the door, is that still your view? yes. i think, you said all eyes in brussels are on a parliament today, all eyes across the european union, which have a radio station i was tuning into this morning, everyone, germany, france, the netherlands, everyone is looking at parliament today to see what happens. three years of the brexit process and the eu is fatigued and they want now, as they tried at the time with theresa may to encourage mps to focus their minds on the brexit deal in front of them. they say it is the end of the negotiating line for them in the eu, and
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therefore they are being very coy about the idea of granting another brexit extension, in order to keep the pressure on parliament. but it is very difficult to say the same eu that has now made two bags it deals with two different prime ministers suddenly turning round and saying we have had enough and we will close the door in the face of the uk. mainly out of self interest, eu leaders have always tried to avoid a no—deal brexit and if they refuse an extension and there is no deal, that is what they would be walking themselves and their economies and and they are extremely unlikely to do that but for now they are watching the vote and worrying about the future, because can i point out, this leaving process was supposed to be the easy bit? then comes the whole idea of trade negotiations if this deal is passed and they will be complex and they could take a very long time. katya i am going to pause their second and i will come back to. i want to go into the commons where the father of the house, ken
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clarke is speaking, the former chancellor. there is no doubt, there is quite a clear customs and regulatory board are being envisaged down the irish sea. it has to be said, the effect, to say the all irish economy, to save them from the near calamity that a total no deal would have resulted in. i have no idea how anyone would have operated ano idea how anyone would have operated a no deal situation across the border and i thought these propositions of a customs border somewhere in northern ireland but not on the border had little or no chance of working. although the irish at least have the economic consolation that they will sail on through the transition period as they are now, i am extremely worried that the purpose of going to negotiate this convoluted arrangement over ireland will show
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that the economy of britain could be taken out of the customs union and the single market straightaway. and if that holes after the transition period, i think that will have the most damaging effects on our economic future for all the reasons that other people have given in the earlier lengthy speeches we have had. therefore it is all to be played for in this transition period. i actually do not believe that a good free trade agreement, a good agreement on security, fighting international crime, agreements on the lightening —— mac licensing of medicals, all things spelt out, are likely to be achieved by the end of next year. the thing that brexiteers like to hold up as a model took
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about nine years before that was put in place. i do wish that we are prepared to contemplate a more realistic timescale. but meanwhile, i think the votes today and the process for the next week or two have got to get us through the necessary process to put in place of withdrawal agreement so that we have a transition period in which we can have the full negotiations about the ultimate destination and all my votes in this house personally have been to ensure the calamity of leaving with no deal on the 31st of october or whenever was never allowed to happen. for that reason, i think we should support this deal. i cannot understand the government ‘s resistance to say that of course we should legislate before abandon the protection of the benn act and
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decide we do not need an extension. the government says you can take that for granted, the detail, getting the vote, we all know that none of us are getting the vote, we all know that none of us are sure getting the vote, we all know that none of us are sure whether there is a majority for this government at all for the present deal today! if they can keep it through the hole of legislation, i would they can keep it through the hole of legislation, iwould be they can keep it through the hole of legislation, i would be very reassured and i would be rightful to say. more gratefulthan reassured and i would be rightful to say. more grateful than ever before to the right honourable and learned gentleman. the former chancellor, home secretary, the father of the house, the most senior member of the house of commons, ken clarke has been a member of the house of commons since 1970, always listen to with great respect but he has massive reservations about the brexit process itself, making his case. let us show you what is going on outside the palace of westminister. there is the thing for you. congregating around parliament square, we can just see the corner of whitehall there and the treasury and the foreign office on the
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corner, the other corner of parliament square and you can just see the palace of westminister in the foreground with all the scaffolding and there is a big renovation programme which is getting under way at the palace of westminister which is to cost between three and £6 billion and will take a decade or more to achieve. looking on this vast crowd and you can see lots of eu flags because this crowd is all about demanding a second referendum on whatever the deal is that comes out of parliament and today ‘s debate is all about the shape of the deal that was negotiated in brusselsjust a few ago. back to brussels and katya adler who is our europe editor. just another thought from you about what happens in terms of the european leaders themselves if there is no outcome to this parliamentary process today, what did i have up their sleeves in terms of contingency? it is not about contingency, do not forget that this
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deadline that borisjohnson set for achieving a brexit deal, the deadline that also appears now in the benn act which says if no deal is made with the eu and then agreed on, he should ask for another brexit extension. that deadline is not an eu deadline, it is a uk one and under eu law, the current brexit deadline, where the uk would leave the eu automatically under eu law is the eu automatically under eu law is the end of this month. so at the moment, the eu finds itself again in the position of watching and waiting to see what happens in the uk. but they still have to do on this site is to give the go—ahead to the european parliament to say yes to this new brexit deal. it has a veto along with our parliament as well, but it is not thought or expected to make any trouble if you like, because the european commission, the building you see behind me, where all the negotiation to place, has been very careful to keep parliament in the loop and updated all the time
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and now that every single one of the 27 eu leaders have said we are happy with this brexit deal, it certainly respects all of our red lines, yet the european parliament is unexpected to make any trouble and yet the eu waits to see what parliament decides. will this deal be given the go—ahead? the eu would like it to a brexit is going to take place so that they can move on now with the next process, move on with the transition period, the standstill period after brexit takes place, when negotiations start about a new trade deal between the eu and uk and new security relationship with the eu and the uk and the pressure is tight, because the current transition only last for 1h months and you think how long this brexit process, the leaving process has taken us and it is not over yet, is it realistic that the trade deal can be done in 1a months, that is the next big worry for the european union. katya, many thanks, katya adler there in brussels.
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union. katya, many thanks, katya adler there in brusselslj union. katya, many thanks, katya adler there in brussels. i want to jump adler there in brussels. i want to jump into the common straightaway for sammy wilson from the dup. it says that any controversial issue has to be decided by a cross community vote. that part of the belfast agreement, which is so sacrosa nct belfast agreement, which is so sacrosanct in his house and to those who negotiator, has now been torn out of the belfast agreement and i will give way. i am very grateful to the honourable gentleman, he is making his own powerful argument that we have heard and can i ask him that we have heard and can i ask him that he turns his attention and addresses the amendment made by my right honourable friend for dorset west. if he is concerned about a ha rd west. if he is concerned about a hard border, mr speaker, he must recognise that the door may be opening, if that passes today for a ha rd opening, if that passes today for a hard border and at two brexit to emerge. first of all, the hard border is there and i have made the argument and i defy anyone to tell me that if you have got to fill in a customs declaration, you have got to have lorries and vans searched at the ports coming in to northern ireland, you have to pay taxes on
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goods that come from gb, that that is not a hard border already. but let me come to this issue of consent, it is important, because the minister dismisses unionist fears by saying you can vote your way out of it. of course mechanism the for voting our way out of it is laid down by an international treaty. why is that not going to be adhered to? because the government and the eu and the irish government knows that that would be an effective way of northern ireland doing the very thing that the minister has said we would be able to do? remove that and you remove the ability of northern ireland to ta ke the ability of northern ireland to take itself out of this arrangement and of course we only get the chance after four years, we are and of course we only get the chance afterfour years, we are put and of course we only get the chance after four years, we are put into and of course we only get the chance afterfour years, we are put into it without any consent at all.” afterfour years, we are put into it without any consent at all. i thank my honourable friend for giving way, way to graze me... studio: sammy wilson from the dup, a
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block of mps who have been parliamentary alliance with the conservatives for recent years, but clearly very opposed, as they have made clear repeatedly, very opposed to this deal going ahead. sammy wilson making a forceful point in his usual way of his sense of what a ha rd his usual way of his sense of what a hard border is and why this deal, in his view, is far worse than to raise my ‘s dale and they were working on that. they are in a worse position today than they were before in their view. vicky young is in the central lobby with a guest. a senior conservative? that is right, eve ryo ne conservative? that is right, everyone here running around trying to do the maths and work out whether oliver letwin ‘s amendment might get through, which could effectively scupper the chance of a meaningful vote happening later today. there are vote happening later today. there a re lots of vote happening later today. there are lots of angry conservatives here who feel that those who went to court to secure a meaningful vote are now trying to stop it. the other
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side of the argument is that there are many who do not trust the government, they do not trust some in the tory party and they are worried that if the deal is voted through today, and they then get to the legislation that has to get through in the next couple of weeks, that could well be voted down and then we the deal, which is what many are trying to stop. let us speak to nigel evans, senior conservative mp. you're in the opposite camp to sammy wilson, because you think this is a better than theresa may's?m wilson, because you think this is a better than theresa may's? it gets rid of the backstop and we are out of the customs union, single market, not being justiciable by the court “ core. not being justiciable by the court —— core. i have been in the chamber for most of this morning and this afternoon and i am amazed that we can see one another for all of the smoke screens that are being utilised in order for people to justify why, when they have said that they could not possibly support ano that they could not possibly support a no deal exit, now all of a sudden they do not want to steal either! theresa may made a powerful
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intervention, the first time she has spoken ina intervention, the first time she has spoken in a speech i think since she quit being prime minister and she said basically, the eyes of the world a re said basically, the eyes of the world are upon us, our voters are looking at us and they are saying, you promised us this referendum, you promised us in the general election you would fulfil it, can we trust you's i think this is what it will be about to die, can the voters actually trust us to deliver what we want? you mentioned the oliver letwin amendment... people might not be following this closely, the amendment says that this house mac has considered the matter of the deal and withhold its approval until any legislation gets through. what is wrong with that? because, basically, it would mean that they could carry on talking for the next six months on the aspects of any legislation that needs to be there. i got elected in 1992 and one of the first bits of legislation i did was the maastricht treaty. we sat through the night in order to get
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that legislation through. i'm not saying it was the cleverest thing as faras saying it was the cleverest thing as far as working hours and all that sort of stuff is concerned, but we knew that there was urgency because we needed to get that legislation through. we can do exactly the same here. we are sitting here on a saturday, i have been an mp for 28 years and have never sat on a saturday before. this is the first time since 1982. let us set on saturdays and sundays, let us meet at atm, not finish until 10pm, we can get that legislation through the benn act which says the prime minister has to for a delay, that doesn't happen, we then move next week to debate legislation. what if that legislation is voted down by maybe some of your colleagues who secretly don't like the deal, then we would leave without a deal. we don't have the numbers for that because what you will find then is that the labour party and the vast majority of conservatives would actually go for the deal. also, i
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went to the brexit supporting tory erg meeting this morning at 8:30am and it was announced there by steve baker and mark francois, and mark francois has said himself in the chamber that we will support therefore all the legislation that follows from that. there is no trust here. the erg would be well outvoted if they tried any shenanigans like that. the only shenanigans being tried in the chamber is to try to prevent or delay brexit from happening. after having debated this for three and a half years, after having extension after extension, the last thing anyone in this country now wants is another extension until the 31st of january when we could then get another extension and just carry on talking. the last thing that people like dominic grieve and a few of the others in parliament want is for us to come to a decision. today they have that opportunity. what do you think might happen? the numbers look incredibly close. privately downing
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street might have thought they had the numbers for getting approval for the numbers for getting approval for the deal but of course this oliver letwi n the deal but of course this oliver letwin amendment could change everything. it is tight. i have been receiving messages today from singapore to the usa. the eyes of the world really are on us today. people have been asking me what will happen. i really don't know. i knelt the whips are talking to a lot of mps. they will have the figures, i am certain —— i know the whips are talking. in the end it will come down to how many labour mps representing chemically constituencies think they are being scrutinised by their voters and have to justify to them why they failed to justify to them why they failed to vote for the brexit deal that is on offer. and so the speculation that there may be 15 of them that are prepared to come over. if that is the case it will be incredibly tight but the governmentjust might get it over the post today if that is true. nigel evans, thank you very
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much indeed. that really is the speculation that everyone is indulging in here. i think the one thing we can say for sure is it will be closer than any of the other votes we have had on a withdrawal deal. huw: vicki, thank you, and thank you to nigel evans for views on what might happen. what i would like to do now outside here is to introduce my panel for the next hour or so. all three of you seasoned observers, all three of you have been following the twists and turns of this. i will start in the middle with this debate today. lots of people consider it to be something that is rather difficult to follow in terms of not just the parliamentary procedure but precisely what boris johnson has brought back which theresa may did or didn't do. how much difference is
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there? what are we talking about in terms of this deal that is so different to the one mps rejected in massive numbers just a few months ago? there are real differences between the two. the most obvious and most politically important is that the backstop is gone. critics will argue it has been replaced by a front. which means that what the deal does is put northern ireland in a different situation within the eu to the rest of the uk. the reason borisjohnson has secured the support of the erg in a way mrs may never did, it is the reason he shelved the backstop is because he can promise a far looser relationship with the eu going forward than mrs may was offering. i think that part of the party is reconciled to what he is trying to do. there is always the flip side and that is that those who prefer a softer sort of brexit don't like what they are seeking. kevin clark said he is concerned about the
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economic. we had again from the dup. we have heard from lots of them today who are unhappy with the shape of the deal. they feel they have been let down and feel this is a much worse position to be in than the deal that mrs may delivered. what are you hearing from them and what do you think the likely impact will be on today's events? the dup we re will be on today's events? the dup were not happy with either boris johnson's deal or theresa may's. there is a lot of anger in dup because it feels like borisjohnson made promises to them, some at their annual party conference. when he was trying to be the next tory leader, and there are some cabinet ministers i have spoken to today who think we can perhaps get the dup back onside. anyone who has been watching what the dup mps have said in parliament, i think it is probably very unlikely. it makes it hard to pass the deal because for every dup mp you don't have you need another labourmp. you don't have you need another labour mp. we will pause for a
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second because i want to go into the commons. dominic grieve, the former attorney general on his feet.” remain of the view that if one looks at its detail in terms of the likely negotiating process that will have to ta ke negotiating process that will have to take place next year, i am left in very serious doubt that will in fa ct in very serious doubt that will in fact be possible to achieve a free—trade agreement. and that therefore this house will be confronted in 12 months with very similar challenges to the ones that we face at present and with deep economic consequences if we cannot find a way through them. so i'm afraid i am not enthusiastic about the deal. listening to my right honourable friend the member for maidenhead, who has been very consistent in her view on the issue of brexit, mainly that for us as a house or mps to both offer a referendum and then to thwart it by our own actions or reject it is a con trick. i don't disagree with her
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about that, although we have this disagreement, and if! about that, although we have this disagreement, and if i don't believe that it disagreement, and if i don't believe thatitis disagreement, and if i don't believe that it is in any way a con trick, when one finds oneself ending up with something so utterly different from what was being offered, i don't see anything wrong in going back and asking the electorate whether that is what they really want. i remain of the view that that possibility exists, and if it were to be a majority view of the house that it should be done, i would support it and seek to have that carried out because i think the consequences are so because i think the consequences are so momentous. i would also like to make clear to the prime minister that if that were to fail, i would not seek to oppose leaving on these terms. i want to make that quite clear. we have to resolve this stop you that brings me to the amendment of the member of west dorset. it is vitally extraordinary that a government that says it wants to follow a sensible process then seeks
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to railroad that process that makes it likely that proper debate will not take place. and two that i am profoundly object. for that reason i will support that amendment and anybody in this house who wants an orderly form of brexit should do so, as well. huw: that was dominic grieve, the former attorney general, conservative mp. i'm going to stay in the house because hilary benn, the chairman of the brexit select committee, is on his feet. the deal the prime minister has brought back will give us less good access to our biggest, nearest and most important market that we enjoy today and less good access than the deal negotiated by the former prime minister would have given. i cannot understand why anyone should regard that as something to be celebrated, cheered, or recommended. it is no wonder the
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government does not want to do an economic assessment because it would show what the government's last assessment shows and i thought it was very assessment shows and i thought it was very striking as my right honourable friend, in his typically forensic and eloquent way, told the house what it would mean in practice to watch at the euphoria that was evident on the benches opposite earlier give way to cold realisation of what it will mean for the businesses and industries that we represent in our constituencies. i simply ask the question, why would we wa nt simply ask the question, why would we want to undermine our future economy, investment opportunity and potential in this way? the second point i want to make is about consent. the prime minister was right in asking us how will we heal the rift brexit has created? if this deal is defeated today it will be the fourth time the house has been unable to agree a way forward. i am
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the first to admit that we cannot carry on like this. we need to find a way forward and that is why a way of doing so has been offered there was a compromise proposal and it is a compromise because there is in politics a division between those who advocate if we can't get a deal we leave with no deal, on the other hand those who say let's just cancel the result of the referendum, pretend it never happened. i do not subscribe to either of those views are. the compromise is to say there isa are. the compromise is to say there is a way in which we can get this done and achieve a decision, and thatis done and achieve a decision, and that is by asking the british people. at the heart of that question is this. do the british people have the right to change their minds? ifear people have the right to change their minds? i fear that some people have the right to change their minds? ifear that some people who reject a referendum would cry no, they don't. we had the one vote
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and that is it. i disagree with that view. because it is fundamental to our democracy that when the facts change, events and change, or time passes we should have the opportunity to change our minds if we wish. i do not know the answer to that question. the only people who know why the british people and that is why i will vote for my honourable friend's amendment today because i think we should ask the people what they now want. huw: the senior labour mp hilary benn, chairman of the brexit select committee. letsjoin benn, chairman of the brexit select committee. lets join my benn, chairman of the brexit select committee. letsjoin my panel once again. just to pick up on where we were, the point that you are making their about the role of the democratic unionist party and the way that that has affected this process , way that that has affected this process, given the new deal. just your thoughts on how that will impact on today's proceedings and the kind of calculations that the conservative whips are now making, given that the dup is clearly not on board. they need a significant
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number more of labour mps to back this deal. there's a sense within government that they are quite happy with what has happened with the european research group, the eurosceptic mps. it seems the majority of that group have now come on and that is good news for them but if this is to have any chance of passing, they have to get more labour mps. at the moment it seems they are on 12, 13 march and it needs to go up somewhat. also independent mps. on that point, don, what do you pick up in terms of what the labour whips are calculating? ——. nigel evans are suggesting there may be 15 labour mps had to back this deal. they are suggesting there may even need to be more than that. what is your reading of the potential labour rebellion? most people expected more. the conservatives thought they could pick up 19 easily at some point. they were quite confident. as katy
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says, the conservatives had to be certain of bringing people on site after they lost the dup mps. last night labour mps were called around who might be considering to rebel, trying to bring them back onside. it looks as if the labour rebellion will be smaller than expected. that is interesting. it is difficult to foresee, i know, but do you think it could be considerably less than 12 at the end of it, or do you think there are ten or more who are determined to vote for the deal?” think 11 have come out firmly now and said they will. i still think 12, 13 is probably the highest we are looking at. if that is the case, what does that mean for the overall calculation? i think this could lose bya calculation? i think this could lose by a very, very small handful. we are looking at single figures. we could have a massive upset in the commons when that happens and i think the lights when amendment will put them past. -- letwin amendment.
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if the letwin amendment we have been describing, the one that calls for more scrutiny and in effect delays the process, if that passes, where are we in the process at that point? by are we in the process at that point? by 11pm tonight the prime minister is committed by lot to write to brussels and request an extension. i am one of the people who think it is very unlikely they will say no. it is conceivable they might come back with a different date but even that is unlikely because they know that leaves them open to a parliamentary debate. and then in a sense we are almost back where we were under theresa may. we have a deal on the table that parliament hasn't voted for, an extension upcoming. i suspect borisjohnson for, an extension upcoming. i suspect boris johnson will try to bring his deal back to parliament, partly because he thinks it might go through, partly because he thinks the optics might be good for him if there is a general election. he will say, i kept trying, get me a parliament that will put it through. we are all saying look at this historic day in the commons, the first time sitting on a saturday for 37 years because they are going to
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make the big decision on brexit. that is the reason everyone is here. we are now saying, actually, they might not? as often is the case with a crunch brexit felt it could be there is not that much crunch. if there is not that much crunch. if the letwin amendment passes, there is talk that conservative mps will be told to abstain on the next vote. it wouldn't actually give us any real bearing on whether or not boris johnson has a majority for his brexit deal. that would be delayed until next week and we are hearing that if this happens then perhaps tuesday will be the next time we'll gather and say it is important. there is some delay but i think that borisjohnson there is some delay but i think that boris johnson wants to there is some delay but i think that borisjohnson wants to pass the brexit deal. he thinks he can perhaps scrape a majority and if you can't today he will push for it this week coming. it won't be over. you're saying that we might have our own version of super tuesday coming up. we have had some really good thoughts from all of you. it is two
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o'clock here at westminster and welcome to viewers around the uk and indeed around the world and we are here for this bbc news special, we are following the events in the houses of parliament today. it is the first time in nearly a0 years that mps have sat on a saturday and they are doing so to consider the deal that borisjohnson struck they are doing so to consider the deal that boris johnson struck with the european union earlier this week in brussels. a lot of debate about the quality of the deal he has brought back with lots of people saying it is not as good as the deal that theresa may struck earlier this year which mps rejected in record numbers. that is part of the debate today and then throwing into this the complication into the parliamentary process that there might be an amendment which forces parliament in any case to tell the prime minister to extend a little further so that these legislation can be scrutinised in more detail. this process today is not quite as straightforward as some people had
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foreseen and i have to say, in this long brexit saga, that should not surprise anyone at all. let us have a look outside the chamber because there are thousands of people congregating on westminster, there we have the great buildings in whitehall, the foreign office and the treasury there on the right—hand side and just behind it, the tiny straight, downing street, which is backing onto horse guards parade, that vast open expense that we can see bottom right of frame where there are all the big state events including trooping the colour and white all to the left this leading up white all to the left this leading up towards trafalgar square and the admiralty arch which leads down to buckingham palace and nelson's column dominating trafalgar square. this crowd of many thousands have been congregating on central london, demanding the right to have a second referendum on the outcome of the brexit process and they want what they call a people's vote. this is they call a people's vote. this is the picture right now, live, in central london, as a parliament is
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in session on a saturday and there are thousands of people congregating on westminster itself and i should say, of course, that you have people here who are very much in favour of brexit and you have people who are very much against it and those views are very much against it and those views a re reflected very much against it and those views are reflected around this area today, as they have been for the last few months. what i would like to do now is move away from westminster for a second and go to bury in greater manchester which didn't vote to leave in the 2016 referendum by just didn't vote to leave in the 2016 referendum byjust over 5a%, slightly more than the national figure, what do voters there make of what they are seeing in parliament today? our correspondence andy gill is there with some of them. we will join him now. yes, as you say, huw, a very laid—back voting constituency, we have laura here who voted remain might accept leave, a couple who would vote remain and david here who voted leave. if i can start with you, the mps are still
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talking, what would you like to see happen today. i would like to see the uk leave the eu, the reason being that i would like to hope it would create more jobs and an improvement in manufacturing and industry within the uk. a lot of people think that living we do the opposite. personally i do not think so, but that is only my view and at the end of the day, i was hoping that there would be a lot less unemployment and things would improve within the uk. would you like to see the commons past mr johnson's taylor? i'm not familiar with what his deal is and i voted leave in the first place and i have not changed my opinion. jen, you voted remain, what would you like to happen now? i am not sure. i think they need to sort it out one way or another. i don't think this stale that boris has put on the table is any better than what theresa may put
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on the table, i do not trust him and ido on the table, i do not trust him and i do not see how he is going to get everything sorted out. i don't know. it will take a lot more time. ijust don't know... not pass the deal today, but yet more time. some people would say get it over with. get it over with and then what? when there is no staff in the hospitals, no food in the supermarkets, you can't just say get no food in the supermarkets, you can'tjust say get it over with and then deal with whatever happens after that. ok, martin, what do you think? what would you like to happen today? it is an incredibly complex situation and i think, for me, i would probably go with a bad deal being better than no deal. i would go for us getting out, even though i voted remain, we have to honour the original tale and democracy has to ta ke original tale and democracy has to take precedence. ithink original tale and democracy has to take precedence. i think we can then move on and hold the government
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accountable for the mess that they have created and their failure over the last three years to sort it, head for an election. you would like to see the commons pass mrjohnson ‘s today? to see the commons pass mrjohnson 's today? i would accept it. that is probably in the national interest. laura you voted remain but might accept leave? i think it needs to be resolved. i would accept leave? i think it needs to be resolved. iwould ideally like accept leave? i think it needs to be resolved. i would ideally like us to have a deal, but that should potentially we should be ready to leave without a deal. you're not worried about the warnings that some manufacturers have put out about no deal? very concerned but we had the vote and we have to stand by it. i did not particularly want to leave the eu but we have to honour the vote. that is where we are and personally i think deal would be better than no deal. thank you all very much for your opinions and that is what some people here in barry are thinking about the vote today.
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rank you very much and thank you to your guests. but here in westminster, my colleague laura kuenssberg, the political editor putting on social media that she has been told that mark... that is the message that laura is getting from number 10. let us talk to someone that knows this process in great detail, who served as brexit secretary and that is the conservative mp david davis, thank you forjoining us. where are we today in your assessment with this debate? where is your sense of the temporary —— mark bridger and mood
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of the commons? to say the obvious, it is ona of the commons? to say the obvious, it is on a knife edge, very fine and calling the outcome will be pretty difficult. the vote will be at 5:30pm, i think, and difficult. the vote will be at 5:30pm, ithink, and i think difficult. the vote will be at 5:30pm, i think, and i think the balance of probabilities that letwin amendment will not get through. why do you think that those who are voting for the proposal are really voting for the proposal are really voting against brexit. lots of them would say no to that. all the way through this process he has argued for a meaningful vote so that the commons can look at the deal and say yes or no. now he will not take yes foran yes or no. now he will not take yes for an answer. if he did not want no deal, it is a deal. this is the best deal, it is a deal. this is the best deal boris could have got. i think number 10 unfortunately our right to increase no deal preparations, if oliver letwin wins but i think the balance of probability is it will not win and we willjust squeak
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through by a couple of votes. that is interesting. we get different versions obviously. you ask about the mood, this is one of those rare occasions when it a debate in the chamber may move it. these things are normally pretty much set in advance and this summer somewhere where someone could make a persuasive speech and move ten people. given that the dup are still sounding pretty negative about this, iam sounding pretty negative about this, i am told that nigel dodds was seen with the prime minister a short while ago, but so far they are pretty negative. that obviously means that the prime minister needs quite a few labour mps on board. what is your sense of the possibility of that? getting 12 or 15 or more. reasonably good. those labour mps... 15 or more. reasonably good. those labour mps. .. this is 15 or more. reasonably good. those labour mps... this is the decision day in all of this. those labour mps might stand back behind the party for a long time, those with large
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leave votes in their constituencies and be too obvious about a block in the process, now today there is a deal on the table and i think you you either want this deal or you wa nt you either want this deal or you want no deal or want to stop the whole process of brexit and i don't think labour mps want to answer those second questions. i think there is a decent chance. i also think, look, i have every seventh day, i have spent more time worrying about northern ireland than most english members of parliament, and i would sympathise with the dup position. the union is that they represent, back at the time of the belfast agreement, gave up the rights of the majority to the minority and said you have got a veto and now they are the minority being asked to give up their veto. you can understand how they feel about that. my message to them is 0k, about that. my message to them is ok, abstain and if they abstain, i think that would tip the balance. they could say that they did not support the deal but nor did they stand in the way of the uk having a
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good future. viewers could be watching saying hang on, what is wrong with the house of common saying we want all the legislation passed and looked at before we give formal approval, doesn't that sound like common sense? the people who are supporting letwin amendment set today as a deadline. they set today asa today as a deadline. they set today as a deadline and that is why i say they will not take yes as an answer, we have met the deadline and provided a deal and they are changing the terms of the agreement. the basis of argument is oliver letwi n the basis of argument is oliver letwin saying basically he does not trust its members of the tory party, they might overturn this legislation, wait a minute, three quarters of the house of commons are remainers, there are only 106 to two people in the house of commons who voted to leave and they do not have it in their power to stop this process and force a no deal. it is a bogus argument and it is based on a bogus argument and it is based on a bogus analysis and they should take
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yes for an answer, do what they imply they would do when they kept saying we respect the result and the referendum. respected and vote for the deal. final point and this is also to do with northern ireland and the quality of the deal and given your deep involvement at one stage in the negotiations as well, this is a very important question. there are collea g u es a very important question. there are colleagues of years saying, this actually is a worse deal than the one theresa may brought back which mps rejected forcefully and for that reason alone, people should be sceptical about it. what is your view on the difference between the two sets of deals and is this a deal which you think is better than the one negotiated by theresa may.” resigned over an early version of the theresa may deal. there are eight differences, i will not list them all, but the key ones for northern ireland or the question of the border in the irish sea. many
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yea rs the border in the irish sea. many years ago, you mayjust remember, there was the mad cow crisis and i remember vividly ian paisley senior being the man who said, i want english cows inspected in belfast. when is a practical reality, the deed he looked at a common—sense outcome. we already have one, it is almost invisible and that is what we will do, make it almost invisible. ifiam will do, make it almost invisible. if i am selling 1000 refrigerators to northern ireland and they are only going there, it should go with almost no visible effect at all. if i want half of them to be sold in the south, right enough, there should be a customs check and the only difference is that those checks will probably take place in liverpool or stranraer or holyhead rather than belfast itself. that is proper. if we do a good deal, a good final deal, future economic partnership deal, with no tariffs, no quotas and minimal regulatory
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checks, which is what we would be aiming for, it will make there is almost entirely invisible. that is what we are aiming for. bear with me, ithink what we are aiming for. bear with me, i think we have some social media from parliament itself on the timings. let us look at what is being said. that is maybe slightly earlier than you were expecting. would that make sense to you's the word i got back from somebody who had been in the chamber was that he was expecting it to run until about 5:30pm. that is not official, i don't think, but a lot of people wa nt to don't think, but a lot of people want to speak, this is a big day, he has accepted that 2:30pm was not necessarily going to be a hard stop. i think it will run later, but i might be wrong. look at the commons, i think this is rebecca long—bailey winding upfor i think this is rebecca long—bailey winding up for labour. you could be right! and it's one of my forecast
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could be wrong! not a single trade union backs this deal. the tuc say andi union backs this deal. the tuc say and i quote, this would be a disaster for working people. unison have said it would risk every workplace right and leave public services exposed and vulnerable. while unite saved by further dilating the legal protections for labour and environmental standards, the prime minister has made the laws that underpin the rights of workers and public safety extremely vulnerable in future trade deals. mr speaker, i could go on, but we should also look... please forgive me for not giving way, we are pushed for time. what does this deal mean for time. what does this deal mean for business ‘s put it simply, for business, for our industries and manufacturing, it reduces access to the markets of our biggest trade partner, threatening jobs up and down our country at a time when more investment is needed, not less.
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there is no economic impact assessment and no accompanying legal advice, funny that, i wonder why, because according to the guardian, britain is on course to sacrifice as much as 130 billion in lost gdp growth over the next 15 years if the deal goes ahead. industry has been clear on this. it needs that market access and it needs a customs union to keep vital supply chain is blowing, yet this deal sells them out. no barrier free blowing, yet this deal sells them out. no barrierfree access, no customs union, instead it puts the fa ntasy of customs union, instead it puts the fantasy of chasing damaging trade deals with donald trump over the needs of our country. make uk who represent british manufacturing are clear, commitment are the closest possible trading relationship in goods have gone. and that this deal will ask cost and —— add cost and bureaucracy and lack of clarity inhibiting investment and
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planning. even the cbi have added, the deal remains inadequate on services and that they have now serious concerns about the direction of the future uk eu relationship. so this is a bad dealfor industry, a bad dealfor this is a bad dealfor industry, a bad deal for manufacturing and, this is a bad dealfor industry, a bad dealfor manufacturing and, more importantly, a bad dealforjobs. but let's look at what this deal will mean for the environment. let's see what green groups are saying about it. greenock uk, for instance. there is an excessive noise in the chamber, it is unfair on the honourable lady who is developing her contribution. let's listen to each other courteously. greener uk have raised the narrowest huge concerns saying have raised the narrowest huge concerns saying environ mental safeguards are absent from the new withdrawal agreement and that the toothless environment bill put forward by the government, and i quote, provides neither an enforcement body with independence nor a commitment to non—regression
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into domestic law. all at a time when we are facing a climate crisis across the world. this is simply not acceptable. this government is asking us to simply trust them on all these issues. quite tellingly without setting out any detail or legislation today. the prime minister says nobody in his government wants to reduce rights or standards in this country. that is a remarkable statement, especially when you look at their track record. how can we trust them? well, members on the opposite benches can cheer all they like but how can we trust a secretary of state for business, energy and industrial strategy when she has made clear that the small businesses she envisages their being, and! businesses she envisages their being, and i quote, no regulation whatsoever, no minimum wage, no maternity or paternity rights, no unfair dismissal rights, no pension rights. how can we trust the foreign
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secretary who wrote a pamphlet called escaping the straightjacket, which outlined his plans to cut workers' rights and regulations? and how can we trust the prime minister himself, who has said the uk should scrap the social chapter and has claimed the current weight of employment regulation is backbreaking. the answer is we cannot trust them. if their intentions were to maintain current standards, then why have they slashed every level playing field commitment in the withdrawal agreement? we are about to make history and in the final moments before we enter those luvvies, mps will consider the weight placed upon their shoulders. is this a deal right for their communities, industries and future generations? no, it isn't. agreeing this deal doesn't get brexit done, instead it will sell out our country and our communities, leaving us open to an onslaught of deregulation, reduction of rights, putting jobs at risk, and it is something no labour mp, nor
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any other mp worried about protecting their community could ever support. mr michael gove. huw: michael gove summing up for the government. mr speaker, our democracy is a precious thing and this parliament is a special place. our democracy depends on a respect for difference and this parliament thrives on respecting the sincerity and commitment to public service of every member. that is why i know that deciding how to vote today for many members will have been difficult. it is important that all of us recognise that for those who argue to remain, and still argue thatis argue to remain, and still argue that is the best outcome, they take a different view from some of us. from those who have argued to leave and consistently argued we should leave and argue for a better deal,
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we should all recognise that they are arguing for what they believe is best for our country. i respect those who have argued for both positions but i respect most of all the many people in this house who argue that we should remain. who during the course of that campaign believe it was the best course for the country, but who now recognise that the people having spoken that verdict must be respected. and that is why does michael not yet, not yet, not yet. that is why in a debate characterised by many brilliant and passionate speeches, the speech that stood out for me was the speech that stood out for me was the speech that stood out for me was the speech by my right honourable friend the member for maidenhead. she argued for remain, but she also recognised that when the people had spoken, their verdict had to be respected. it is notjust on our benches. it is on every bench. members like the member for great grimsby orfor don members like the member for great grimsby or for don valley, awful rhondda valley. they'll argued that
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we should remain —— orfour at rhondda valley. they now recognise there is something more precious than being a leaver or eric remain —— orat remain than being a leaver or eric remain —— or at remain it. that is being a democrat. what unites us in this house is that we are democrats. and we voted in this house of commons to have a referendum. we voted in this house of commons to say that we would respect the verdict of the people. we voted overwhelmingly for article 50, which honoured that referendum and said that we would leave. how quickly it look to those who sent us here at now if we say to them, we made those sacred promises but now we choose to dishonour them? it is the case, i know, that there will be individuals who will have specific qualms and concerns about this deal, and they exist across the
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house. it is also the case that the time has come for us to decide. none of us ina time has come for us to decide. none of us in a country that voted 52—a8, none of us in a house of 650 members, none of us in a country of 65 million people, can ensure that we have our own perfect brexit. no. but what we can do is we can be prepared to put aside our perfect for the sake of the common good. that is what the public wants us to do now. in his speech, the member... no, i won't. do now. in his speech, the member... no, iwon't. the do now. in his speech, the member... no, i won't. the memberfor holborn and st pancras laid out his concerns for the political declaration. he knows and we know that if we vote today for the deal, for this withdrawal agreement, we can then move on to ensure the future economic partnership we all want can be framed in the best interests of the british people, and we have given... i shall not give way but i
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am gratefulfor given... i shall not give way but i am grateful for his given... i shall not give way but i am gratefulfor his persistence. laughter we can ensure... order! order! the chancellor of the is not currently giving way. thank you very much. during that discussion about our future economic partnership, every party in this house, every voice in this house will have equal weight and value in making sure that we can deliver a brexit deal that delivers for the 52 and for the a8. that is our intention. let me be clear. we on this side of the house. no, i shan't, and no, iwon't. laughter however tempting it might be, i will decline on this case. the truth is, because no deal can ever satisfy anyone, we could spend all our time searching for that elusive perfect deal. and what would that position
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look like to the country? what would it look like to all those who have sent us here? to the honourable lady's constituency voted to leave and expected that felt to be honoured? they voted to put trust in this place, to put trust in parliament, to make a vital decision. if we duck that decision, if we did there, delay, then i'm afraid the people will feel a sense of depression and dismay and demoralisation that the parliament they hoped would keep its promises has chosen once again to deduct its responsibilities. i am clear, also, that everyone who has spoken in this debate spoke from the best of motives, including the memberfor west dorset, a dear and old friend of mine. one of the things i would say to him and to others... on that point... thank you to the chancellor
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forgiving way. everyone has their beliefs and everybody does what they believe is right, including the memberfor believe is right, including the member for west dorset. if the bill that follows the meaningful vote we re that follows the meaningful vote were to fail, how would the government avoid no deal for the end of october? one of the things this government is absolutely committed to doing is making sure we have a deal and we are also committed to making sure we ovate the law. we are also committed to making sure that we respect the voices of all of those in this house. let me state firmly from this dispatch box, this government is committed to ensuring we have a deal, and the best way of getting that deal, leaving on october 31 and being able to move on to the other issues which the people in this country want us to discuss, is by accepting the honourable motives of the amendment but recognising also that if we accept that amendment we will not have a meaningful vote today. we will not
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unlock the door to the deal being passed. we will have a voted i'm afraid in the terms of that motion for more delay. and i'm afraid, on that basis, i would urge everyone who wants us... know, who wants us to honour the referendum mandate to recognise that that amendment, however sincere it is put, is unnecessary. what is necessary is for us to reach a moment of decision. in the other place, the leader of the crossbench peers, in some respects the voice of moderation in that house, explicitly said that the time has passed for people to quibble and question the precise terms of this deal. he said that parliament needs to get on with it, otherwise there will be profound damage to public confidence in this place. and that is the question that every member of the house must ask. how will our constituents feel if tonight we vote to support this deal
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without the amendment? our constituents will feel that the cloud has been lifted. cheering parliament... parliament has listened to them with respect. that the vote in 2016 that we promised to honour it has, after three and a half years of deadlock and division, been honoured by a house that at last is ready to unite. that is the choice that faces us all. because we do not vote for this deal unamended then i'm afraid that all of those who sent us here watching our deliberations will say parliament has failed to meet the moment. parliament has failed to rise to the occasion, failed to ensure that an important democratic vote, the most important democratic vote, the most important vote for any proposition in our history will be delayed, dishonoured and will not be
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delivered. that is why i urge eve ryo ne delivered. that is why i urge everyone in this house to recognise our first everyone in this house to recognise ourfirst duty... ourfirst everyone in this house to recognise our first duty... our first duty... our first our first duty... our first duty... ourfirst duty is our first duty... our first duty... our first duty is to the principle that underpins this place.” our first duty is to the principle that underpins this place. i said no! at the right honourable gentleman is responding and will be heard to the conclusion. our first duty to our constituents and to our country is to keep our promises. of this house said we would honour the referendum mandate. the time has come. and the question that all of us come. and the question that all of us must answer come. and the question that all of us must answer when we come. and the question that all of us must answer when we return to our constituencies is, did you vote to break the deadlock? did you vote to end the division of these days? did you vote to bring the country together? i know that members across this house will support the government this afternoon to do just that. cheering
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huw: michael gove to the government. lam indeed putting huw: michael gove to the government. i am indeed putting the question. i am extremely grateful. the question is that amendment may be made. as many as are of the opinion, say "aye". division! clear the lobby! studio: so mr speaker calls the division which is on this first amendment presented by the senior conservative mp and former cabinet minister and close colleague of david cameron, sir oliver letwin, he has put this amendment forward and what i would like to do as mps are filing into the division lobbies is just explain to you once again what this is about. we are not at the stage yet where mps are voting on borisjohnson ‘s stage yet where mps are voting on boris johnson ‘s deal. stage yet where mps are voting on borisjohnson ‘s deal. we are not at that stage, we are voting on an amendment which will have a big
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impact on what happens in the next half an hour or so in the of commons. the letwin amendment basically withholds approval of boris johnson's basically withholds approval of borisjohnson's deal basically withholds approval of boris johnson's deal with basically withholds approval of borisjohnson's deal with the eu until a certain point, until the legislation to enact the deal has been safely passed. in other words, it delays it. it automatically triggers the so—called benn act, the act associated with the labour mp hilary benn. this tells the prime minister that he must seek a further delay to the brexit process beyond the current deadline of october the sist. the current deadline of october the 31st. that is because, according to the law, an extension must be requested if a deal has not been approved by mps by the end of today, todayis approved by mps by the end of today, today is the deadline for this approval. once the legislation is passed, if it is, the delay would fall away. very important about coming up on this letwin amendment.
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if it is passed, it bills in another delay and we heard michael gove saying there that if it is passed, then the government is not minded to have that big vote on the deal itself. this vote is really a crunch vote on the process that we are seeing today on this historic day in westminster, the first saturday setting for 37 years. if the letwin amendment is defeated, then we will move on to vote on borisjohnson's deal struck in brussels early this week and the vote coming up puts us ata week and the vote coming up puts us at a fork in the road, if you like, but it is a very important fork in the road. let usjoin but it is a very important fork in the road. let us join vicky young in the road. let us join vicky young in the central lobby. a short distance away from where mps are voting on what are you picking up now? you can see mps going through, most of them we re see mps going through, most of them were in the chamber for that rather rowdy end to proceedings and as you say, this is the amendment, not the
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vote on the deal itself. this is oliver letwin saying that the house has considered this but we are withholding our approval until legislation goes through. i have to say, there is a lot of anger here, particularly amongst pro—brexit conservative mps. they feel that this is a group of mps who went to court in order to make sure that there was a so—called meaningful vote in this place that mps would get the chance to vote on a deal and i now feel that this is really moving the goalposts, taking that opportunity away, because downing street said, what this does, if it goes through for oliver letwin, it actually means that the next vote that we might come to would be totally meaningless because it is not in any way saying that the house of commons supports the deal. there isa of commons supports the deal. there is a lot of anger here, lots of people trying to persuade oliver letwin, he was in downing street last night, trying to persuade him not to go ahead with this. what i think downing street hoped was he would table it slightly differently and may be say in this amendment
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something like we approve the deal or support the deal but we will not give it a formal approval until the legislation goes through. it really is partly because there is a lack of trust and something what might have happened today is the mps could have voted for the deal and the legislation that you have to have before we leave, that could have been voted down and we are potentially in the position of leaving without a deal once again at the end of october. a lot of unhappiness here and downing street saying we are not going to take part in something which is an irrelevance and they would not take part in any bills if it came to it if there is oliver letwin amendment goes through. just bear with me and i will return to you in a second. i wa nt to will return to you in a second. i want to explain to people what is going on. there you have an image, look, from layla moran, one of the mps voting there of what the division lobby looks like. there are no television cameras in there, as we know. i'm not sure that people are meant to take photos anyway, but we are grateful to her for treating this one, because it gives you a
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sense of the absolute intensity of the atmosphere, as mps are queueing up the atmosphere, as mps are queueing up theirto the atmosphere, as mps are queueing up their to pass the tellers desks. if you look at this picture, they are queueing up and they will pass a desk at the end of the lobby were the tellers, the mps counting the votes, will tick off names as they go past. they have a long list of 650 mp5 go past. they have a long list of 650 mps and they will tick off the names as the mps pass the desk and then of course they will count them allup and then of course they will count them all up and because it is a full house today, it will take maybe 12 or 15 minutes for the vote to come through. just an image there from inside the lobby in the house of commons. there are two voting lobbies, one on each side of the house, one behind the government benches and one behind the opposition benches and depending on whether you're voting yes or no, you will go into either lobby. that is what is happening now and if you look in the commons, have a look at
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the commons chamber itself, you can see mps having voted coming back into the chamber. they have filed out, they have gone around the back and around the sides of the chamber if you like and they have come back in again. once they are all in place, we will wait for the tellers to come and stand at the dispatch box, where you can see the mice on display, the mice has to be there when the house is in session, the tellers will group, four of them, and then we will get the result of this first amendment that we are looking out for sir oliver letwin. as the voting goes on, we willjoin vicky young again. an update there from our colleague laura kuenssberg. there has been a lot of speculation about what the dup would do. the government has been desperately trying to persuade them and i spoke to one minister, to at least abstain on this and give them a chance to get to the main vote with it not being change. that has failed by the sounds of it, a dup source telling
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laura kuenssberg that they are going to back the oliver letwin amendment and that makes it very difficult for the government to get the numbers to defeat the letwin amendment. the dup as you know incredibly unhappy about the deal that boris johnson as you know incredibly unhappy about the deal that borisjohnson has done with the eu. they have been very outspoken against it and i don't think they were really in the mood to do boris johnson think they were really in the mood to do borisjohnson any favours with this and we know that nigel dodds, there westminster leader, was having meetings in the last few hours as they tried to persuade them, who knows what count of back and forth there was in those negotiations, but it sounds like that is not going to happen, the dup trying to do everything they can to stop a deal going through parliament, which they totally disapprove of and that is very bad news for the government, as we have just previously said, if the oliver letwin amendment goes through, the government has indicated that they will not take pa rt indicated that they will not take part ina indicated that they will not take part in a further vote. there are various ways they can do that, but they simply won't provide the people
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to count the votes and it would be quite unlikely that that will go ahead. we will wait and see when we get the result of this. each result normally takes about 50 minutes. that is interesting, when he spoke to david davis earlier on, he was holding out the possibility of an abstention by the dup, but as you say, they are notjust unhappy, they feel very badly let down and they are very feel very badly let down and they are very angry. the likelihood of the dup actually doing the prime minister any favours today, as you say, was pretty much close to zero. it was, listening to sammy wilson one of their mps and house of commons earlier, just absolutely furious about what has happened. they did not like the theresa may deal because they felt it effectively put a regulatory board down the irish say, splitting them off in some ways from the rest of the uk. this deal, they say, is not a thin line, it is a very thick borderline and i feel they are being pushed closer to the eu and of
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course ireland, rather than the uk. they feel they have been betrayed on all of this, extremely unhappy, the government of course have said, hang on, in law northern ireland is not leaving the eu customs union, it is time within the territory but they get the option of course of having a footin get the option of course of having a foot in each camp which should be beneficial to northern ireland businesses but that is not how the dpc had. they see it purely in terms of the union and they think that the deal undermines the union. we will be back to you as soon as it looks that vote is taking place. a quick look into the commons, it is filling up look into the commons, it is filling up again and lots of mps have been voting, 650 mps as the number in house of commons. of course the speaker and deputies do not vote and the sinn fein members do not take part, they do not attend the house of commons. the numbers are adjusted because of that. but we will see very because of that. but we will see very soon because of that. but we will see very soon whether this amendment by
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sir oliver letwin is carried or not a defeat is, it presentsjohnson with a massive headache and as we look at these images and i will bring in my panel again, just to tell us, really, what they think will happen if this is carried out the reason i am saying if, as we know that dup will vote against. they are not going to abstain, they will make it even more difficult for borisjohnson. let us have a scenario question, don foster, what do you think will happen if this is carried ‘s i think the government will immediately panic, they have been trying to issue threats all day, basically trying to convince people not to vote for the letwin amendment, desperately trying to get the dup right to the last minute and i think they will panic, there has been talk about whether or not they could ask mps not to go and vote.” think the letwin amendment will pass and we willjust see a panic immediately from the government. i think it will be quite unclear what
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has happened. michael gove did give us has happened. michael gove did give usa has happened. michael gove did give us a hint, if this passes, there is no point having a meaningful vote at all. that was clear. what is not clear is what they do. they have to fundamentally change their strategy. what borisjohnson fundamentally change their strategy. what boris johnson wanted was a clean vote on his deal that went through and then mps had two weeks to pass the accompanying legislation or face the prospect of no deal. if that threat of no deal is lifted, parliament has the time and leisure to go over this deal in excruciating detail, select committees that mark committees can do enquiries about it and that is a rocky path for the pie minister. viewers will be watching this thinking, what does the practical implication of this amendment coming up being harry, what would you say is mike it means we are not living on october 31, but it also means there is a bruising battle ahead for the pie minister because even if he secures a majority for the deal as it is, getting the implementing legislation, which will contain all
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the gory details, getting it through parliament is going to be a real struggle. it is your view, katie, now that they dup have made their views clear, the government are not just doing it, they are voting for the amendment, where do you think i believe the prime minister?m the amendment, where do you think i believe the prime minister? it is a difficult position they will find themselves in but they will try and push and have a vote next week on the legislation, but as he pointed out, you will see labour mps thinking about backing the deal thinking about backing the deal think we have more time to look at all the potential pros and cons, which is exactly what number 10 did not want, so it is a more uphill task and i think it gets less likely that we are living on october the sist, that we are living on october the 31st, but not impossible, because ultimately the eu have to say yes to an extension. that is the other thing we need to play in. we were in brussels just a couple of days ago and jean—claude juncker could not have been clearer. he stepped up to the microphone and was asked several times, if there is a deal would you
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consider another extension and he was clear, he said look, we have a deal, there is no argument for another extension. now, was that being totally upfront? patti adler, our colleague said there is no way she thinks that other eu leaders will shut the door of the possibility of an extent, is that your take? he said there was no need for a prolongation, he did not say he will block it and even if he had, it is not up to him anyway, it is up to the heads of state and the government and i find it hard to believe that they would reject a request for an extension because they do not want no deal and they do not want to be responsible for no deal. the blame game in this has been very important. absolutely. as soon as been very important. absolutely. as soon as the tellers come back in and we find out that the letwin amendment has passed, number 10 and borisjohnson will amendment has passed, number 10 and boris johnson will immediately amendment has passed, number 10 and borisjohnson will immediately be turning round to everyone who voted for the amendment saying you are blocking the exit. they will be trying to completely blame everyone who voted for this amendment for
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stopping brexit. the campaign strategy, the political campaign strategy, the political campaign strategy is now going to be very clear, isn't it? boris johnson wants to push for general action and he has not been allowed it yet and the fa ct has not been allowed it yet and the fact he has negotiated a deal, even if things do not go their way and they do not seem to be, i think there is renewed optimism that they have a deal they can put forward in a general election that they think puts the conservatives in a better position. look at the chamber, it is now very position. look at the chamber, it is now very full and as we can see, a huge crowd of mps at what we call the bar of the house, the entrance point which approaches the dispatch box there with that nice in a place in the parliamentary clerks behind it and then the speaker chair which of course is at the moment the chair of course is at the moment the chair ofjohn bercow although he has announced that he will soon be resigning, stepping down as speaker. at which point, there will be a new speaker appointed, but i think it is
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fairto speaker appointed, but i think it is fair to say that this speaker, certainly has played a very important, some people would say controversial, some people would say troublemaking role in the brexit process , troublemaking role in the brexit process, depending on when —— mac where you are coming from. john bercow still presiding on this first, and sitting on 37 years, still very much aware of the historic significance of what is going on, still very much aware that what happens today will dictate the future of this brexit process, a full three and a half years after the referendum took place. for the first time, from the former prime minister, theresa may on brexit issue itself. she has spoken on other issues in the house including domestic violence, but on the brexit issue, she got up and made a fairly concise beach but basically said, i have a sense of deja vu here, there was a bit of laughter around that, because she has presented her deal several times
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to the house and i think it is fair to the house and i think it is fair to say, she was rather embarrassed and humiliated by the scale of her repeated defeats, but she is putting her backing here for borisjohnson and his deal and he has urged other mps to do the same and respect the result of that 2016 referendum. that was her contribution and boris johnson looked on in i thought a rather grateful way at the kind of intervention she had made. but the labour front bench, in the form of kier starmer earlier and rebecca long—bailey have made their opposition to the still very clear. it is their view that it is a far worse deal and more harmful to the uk than the one presented by theresa may earlier this year and for that reason they will vote against the deal. just to remind viewers who are joining us at this point, this very important moment in parliamentary procedure and parliamentary history, the vote coming up is not on the deal itself.
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"no" this is an amendment presented by sir oliver letwin. if this is carried it will delay the brexit process and means the prime minister will be forced, obliged by law, to ask for extension to the brexit process. it is that important. for that reason, if it is carried, we will not have that big vote on the brexit deal today despite all expectation, all the talk about today being the day of the big decision, the big d date, that will not be the case if this amendment is carried. the tellers are still not in place. we will see four of them in place. we will see four of them in place are standing at the dispatch box when they are ready to announce the vote but because the house is so full and we have 650 or so house is so full and we have 650 or so mps or just house is so full and we have 650 or so mps orjust under that number here present today, it takes a good 15 minutes, sometimes longer to count all the votes. as we stay on
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this image, i will bring my colleague vicki young back in she is in the central lobby outside the chamber. the expectation now is reaching pretty intense levels. chamber. the expectation now is reaching pretty intense levelsm is. i think the news that the dup are not backing the government is very significant. i think they will really struggle to win this vote without the support of the dup. they need to have an awful lot of labour mps on their side. they certainly have some of the former conservatives, the ones who were booted out of the conservative party. 21 of them. certainly some of them are not happy about this oliver letwi n them are not happy about this oliver letwin amendment. alistair burt, a former foreign office minister said it is not what he wants. he wanted a delay to brexit to be a possibility if there was no deal on the table, if there was no deal on the table, if borisjohnson if there was no deal on the table, if boris johnson had if there was no deal on the table, if borisjohnson had decided to go for no deal. that's why he wanted it there. he says it is not what is
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needed now because there is a deal on the table. borisjohnson went out there, got a deal even though lots of people said he didn't want to or couldn't get it. that deal is now there and could be voted on today, but instead mps are now voting on delaying once again. if oliver letwin's amendment goes through, and that will be the ayes will stop the ayes will be oliver letwin and the people wanting to pass the amendment. the noes will be the government. if it goes through by 11pm borisjohnson government. if it goes through by 11pm boris johnson bylaw government. if it goes through by 11pm borisjohnson bylaw has to ask the eu for yet another delay to brexit. we've heard a lot from him about how he will not do that but will leave on october 31, he will never ask for a delay. he said he would rather die in a ditch. i think the tellers are coming back. i am looking very closely. they are standing, here we go. cheering
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order. order. the ayes to the right, 322. the noes to the left, 306. cheering the ayes to the right, 322. the noes to the left, 306. the ayes have it. unlock. a significant moment. this builds in delay. what will the government say? the motion as amended be agreed to. as many as are of the opinion, say "aye". to the contrary, "no". the ayes have it, the ayes have it. order, we now come
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demotion number two, minister or whip on duty formally not moved. thank you. order. bit of order, the prime minister. thank you, mr speaker. i am very grateful to you, iam speaker. i am very grateful to you, i am grateful to the house of commons staff, everyone who has put themselves out, everyone who has come to give up their time in this debate today. it's been a very important debate, an exceptional moment for our country. alas, the opportunity to have a meaningful vote has effectively been passed up because the meaningful vote has been voided of meaning. i wish house today that i am not daunted or dismayed by this particular result andi dismayed by this particular result and i think it probably became likely once it was obvious that the
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amendment front might right honourable friend the member for west dorset was going to remain on the order paper. i continue in the very strong belief that the best thing for the uk and for the whole of europe is for us to leave with this new deal on october 31. and to anticipate the questions that are coming from the benches opposite, i will not negotiate a delay with the eu. and neither does the law compel me to do so. i will tell our friends and colleagues in the eu exactly what i have told everyone in the last 88 days i have served as prime minister. that further delay would be bad for this country, but for our european union, and bad for democracy. so next week, the government will introduce the legislation needed for us to leave the eu with our new deal on october
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31. i hope that our european union collea g u es 31. i hope that our european union colleagues and friends will not be attracted as benches opposite art, or rather i should state the front bench is, by delay. i don't think they will be attracted by delay and i hope that then honourable members faced with a choice of our new deal, our new dealfor the uk faced with a choice of our new deal, our new deal for the uk and the faced with a choice of our new deal, our new dealfor the uk and the eu will change their minds because it was pretty close today. i hope that they will change their minds and support this deal in overwhelming numbers. since i became prime minister i have said we must get on and get brexit done on october 31 so that this country can move on. mr speaker, that policy remains unchanged. note delays, and i will continue to do all i can to get
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brexit done on october 31, and i continue to commend this excellent deal, mr speaker, to the house. cheering huw: jeremy corbyn trying to get in. point of order, mrjeremy corbyn. thank you, mr speaker. i welcome today's vote. parliament has clearly spoke... its order, or a day. the prime minister was heard. yes, he was. don't argue with the chair, i am telling you what the situation is. the prime minister was heard, and the leader of the opposition will be heard. it is a simple and unarguable as that. i welcome today's vote. it is an emphatic decision by this house that has declined to back the prime minister's deal today and clearly
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voted to stop and no deal crashed out from european union. the prime minister must now comply with the law. he can no longer use the threat ofan no law. he can no longer use the threat of an no deal crashed out to blackmail members to support his sell—out deal. labour is not prepared to sign up to the communities we represent. we are not prepared to sell out their future. and we believe that ultimately the people must have the final say on brexit, which actually only the labour party is offering. today is an historic day for parliament because it said it will not be blackmailed by a prime minister who is apparently prepared once again to d efy is apparently prepared once again to defy the law passed by this parliament. i invite him to think very carefully about the remarks he just made about refusing, apparently, to apply for the extension which the eu number two
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act requires him to do. mr ian blackford. thank you. i am most grateful. i think all of us in this house are aware of the responsibilities we have. this is a crisis we are in. i am thankful that the house has voted the way it has done on the amendment this afternoon isa done on the amendment this afternoon is a clear expression from this house that we cannot crash out on the 31st of october popular i want to ask you what we can do to make sure that the prime minister respects the law of the land, that the prime minister respects the benn act and sends a letter to the european council seeking that extension. i wonder what we can do to make sure that the government does not spring forward the bill until that extension, as has been
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instructed, is delivered upon. and any failure of the prime minister who thinks he is above the law... well, prime minister, you will find yourself in court. i don't mean any spirit of discourtesy to the right honourable gentleman but i think his contribution was rhetorical in the sense that i don't think he was particularly inviting my immediate response. if he was doing so, i would say to him that i think judicious consideration of these matters is always beneficial to colleagues across the house. everybody of course must abide by the law. the right honourable gentleman is versatile, dexterous and versed in parliamentary weaponry to try to ensure his point of view prevails. we will leave it there for now. point of order, jo swinson. the prime minister's deal was a bad deal and the public deserve to have the final say. not just the and the public deserve to have the final say. notjust the hundreds of
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thousands who are marching outside, but the millions of people across our country in. order. i recognise there are very strongly held views on both sides of the house, on both sides of this debate. but the leader of the liberal democrats must be heard! and it is unconscionable if there is an attempt to stop someone being heard. jo swinson. the people who are outside this building right now will be heard and they deserve the final say, along with millions across the country. so the most urgent thing right now is that the prime minister complies with the law andi prime minister complies with the law and i ask your guidance. would it be possible to suspend the setting for a short time to allow the prime minister to go and sent his letter and come back and make a statement to the house to confirm he has done so? i am gratefulto to the house to confirm he has done so? i am grateful to the to the house to confirm he has done so? i am gratefulto the honourable
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lady. it is not... order. it is not my intention to suspend the sitting. the point will have been heard by the prime minister. i say to the honourable lady all sorts of things are possible, but as to what is judged appropriate at this time, i think the puckish grin on the contours of the honourable lady's face suggests she was making a point but not expecting such a decision. i am grateful to her. of course i will come... momentarily. of course i will come to the honourable gentleman. point of order, sir oliver letwin. i want to say first of all to the prime minister that i agreed with what he said at the end there. that i am absolutely certain he will comply with the law. i want to say to friends and colleagues across the house who helped us achieve this amendment which i agreed to be profoundly in the national interest, that our ways
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will part. for many who have cooperated in preventing a no deal exit by putting in place the benn act and helping to keep the insurance policy in place today, now when the prime minister brings the withdrawal implementation bill to the house of commons, we will be voting for it. we will continue to vote for it. we will seek to ensure that it becomes law before the 31st of october and if it does so, this country will leave on the 31st of october. i hope i share with the prime minister, but it will do so on the basis of knowing that should anything go wrong we will not crash out without a deal on that day. lam i am grateful to the right honourable gentleman for the clarity of his exposition. people will take their own view but it is certainly clear and petty and i am grateful to the right honourable gentleman. point of order, mr nigel dodds. this decision now will give further time
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for detailed consideration of the bill when it comes forward and it will also give an opportunity to consider in detail whatever amendments come forward, it has the effect of not approving this deal today. and of course, we will examine all the details of the bill and all amendments in the light of our overriding concern about the constitutional economic integrity of the union. that is our priority, it will remain our priority in the days ahead and that is the basis on which we will now proceed, in a timely and sensible manner. i am grateful. i hope the honourable gentleman will ta ke hope the honourable gentleman will take it in the right spirit if, i say that i feel that our proceedings would not be complete without a point of order from the honourable gentleman, the chair of the european scrutiny committee. well, somebody
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is suggesting a division, but i will not allow a division on the matter. point of order, sir william cash. there is much talk about the law of the land and as it stands at the moment in time, it is simple, section one of the withdrawal act 2018 categorically states that the european communities act is repealed on exit date which is the 31st of october, just anyone cannot read.” am always grateful and i am sure the house will be indebted to the gentleman two huw: we heard a hugely significant vote in the house of commons and mr speaker isjust managing the responses to that vote right now. if you're just right now. if you'rejustjoining us here on bbc news for the special coverage, let mejust bbc news for the special coverage, let me just update you on what has just happened in the house of commons as mps are filing out of the house now, having really started to digest the importance of what has
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gone on. because an amendment presented by the conservative mp sir oliver letwin has been carried and has been carried by 322 — 306, so in this very finely balanced house of commons, that is a pretty decent majority of 16 and a very big setback for boris johnson because what does this mean? it means that mps have backed an amendment which says that you cannot have a vote on the final brexit deal until all the legislation has been passed by the commons. now that is a very big development in this process and for those people expecting the big vote on brexit to happen today, well, it is not going to happen. what is going to happen now is that boris johnson will bring forward legislation next week, in the hope that that can be passed in rapid order by the houses of parliament in order by the houses of parliament in orderfor brexit to order by the houses of parliament in order for brexit to happen on the 3ist order for brexit to happen on the 31st of october. i think it is better to say that that is an
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ambitious parliamentary task that he has said, but he was adamant that thatis has said, but he was adamant that that is what he was going to do. vicky young, our chief political corresponding in the central lobby of the houses of parliament, we have to underline how significant a moment that was. the government just did not have the numbers to defeat that i'm just to recap, it means that i'm just to recap, it means that what they have passed it something that says that this house has considered the matter, the deal, and withhold its approval until the legislation, the bill that enacts the withdrawal agreement, goes through. those who voted for it say that it stops the possibility of by somehow the prime minister and the house of commons, people in the conservative party may be, trying to get a no deal a brexit at the end of october. there are others who are saying that they are simply trying yet again to block brexit completely. the big question what happens next? this means that by law the prime minister has to ask the eu for another delay to brexit, it is called the benn act and that kicks
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in at 11 o'clock tonight but boris johnson as he has said all along suggesting there he is not going to do it. i will not negotiate a delay nor does the law forced me to. there has been so much speculation about how he could somehow get around this law and no one really thinks he can, but there has been talk about sending one letter and then another saying i do not really want this. one thing he did say and what we know will happen is that the legislation, the withdrawal agreement bill, will be introduced in house of commons early next week and it would mean potentially a big vote on tuesday night on what is called the second reading, the first stage really of really of any bill that goes through this place. that will be a big moment because that could be, if it gets through the second reading, the first time that the house of commons has backed any kind of withdrawal agreement to do with brexit. that is now being seen, potentially, as an alternative to the big meaningful bout that we might have had today. there is not a
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large one, that if that bill gets through the house of commons and house of lords by the 31st of october, that we still do it leave with a deal on the 31st of october but the big question is what will borisjohnson do but the big question is what will boris johnson do tonight but the big question is what will borisjohnson do tonight about sending that letter? if he sends it or someone sending that letter? if he sends it or someone else does, what does the eu do in return? that is the question, vicki, because the word from number 10 earlier was that the prime minister himself, as i read it anyway, would not be sending a letter, it was worded very generally suggesting that parliament would be requesting an extension. can you help us with that? i don't think thatis help us with that? i don't think that is in the bill. you have to remember that the benn act is very specific. it is written in there at the end, the letter itself, and it says that the prime minister has to send it. it is quite difficult to get around it, even though the prime minister has said all along he will not do it. there has been lots of speculation, could you get the cabinet secretary to do it? this is unlikely, dragging on the civil
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service to all of this. but he said one letter followed by another, saying i actually do not mean it is not what other options are there? get the speaker to send it? that does not seem plausible, it is not about parliament asking for a delay, it has to be the prime minister and the government. we will have to wait and see what they decide to do, they we re and see what they decide to do, they were really tight—lipped about this earlier, even though people were predicting that the letwin amendment would not get through and they keep repeating, as borisjohnson has done, i will not negotiate a delay. is there any wriggle room ‘s we will have to wait and see. but the benn act, the first point is he has to write a letter asking for a delay until the of january. write a letter asking for a delay until the ofjanuary. vicki, we will talk again in a while. let us rejoin my panel once again who have been looking very closely at what has gone on considering the applications. right. let's take
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stock. the amendment has been carried, the prime minister and i think it is fair to say, he was unrepentant, if that is the word, saying he did not consider this to be much of a setback. let us be very clear what the benn act asks him now to do. is he really in the position where he can avoid sending that letter asking for an extension? absolutely not. it is clear in the benn act, it is written right into it, for the prime minister himself, he has to write and send that letter by 11pm asking for an extension, so that they can scrutinise the bill. that is clear. is it remotely possible that there is a way around it for him? not that i can think of are not that i have seen any lawyers come up with and the prime minister himself in his written submission to the scottish court confirmed he would send the letter. the tone of the contribution and indeed if we are to believe it, the kind of words coming out from unnamed sources at
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number10, coming out from unnamed sources at number 10, was not in that kind of area and seem to suggest that he would not be requesting an extension, is notjust bluster?” would have to assume so, given that i cannot think of an alternative that would not be in breach of a very clear law. we know, katy, it is the last thing he would want us to do but ultimately by 11pm he may have to sign. it is interesting that borisjohnson said he would not negotiate an extension. i think sending a letter might be different than negotiation. i think what you might see numberio than negotiation. i think what you might see number 10 do is say, yes, there is legal pressure on boris johnson to send a letter, but i think they will try and frustrated and there is some talk in number 10 about frustration. how much can you get away with sending one letter, perhaps sending a second same something else or other people around borisjohnson something else or other people around boris johnson say that this government is still in charge of its own policy, they can still choose their own positions and their brexit position and their view has not changed in regards to not getting an
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extension. i think you might start to see lots of confusing messages, the government doing one thing because they have to, but saying something completely different. just to go through this again, this is from a source at number 10, an unnamed source at number 10, but from our parliamentary colleagues in the bbc, parliament has voted to delay brexit once again, says the source, the prime minister will not ask for an extension. that is quite clear. he will tell the eu leaders there should be no delays, that they should reject parliament ‘s letter, parliament's letter, should reject parliament ‘s letter, pa rliament‘s letter, asking should reject parliament ‘s letter, parliament's letter, asking for a delay and we should get brexit done on october the 31st with our new deal so that the country can move i respectfully say that that contribution from whoever the source is is factually not right, is it?” don't think so. we have seen this
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before, unnamed sources from number 10 brief out a very aggressive message, the prime minister in public sound slightly different and that way he can get credit from the brexiteers for talking tough, but he can equally claim it is not him when he wants to appeal to more moderate people. let us talk about next week, this is also hugely important. the prime minister wants to bring forward legislation because he still wa nts to forward legislation because he still wants to leave on october the 31st. that is a lot of stuff to get through. just a thought on what next week could bring. i think next week labour will continue trying to stop any of theirmps labour will continue trying to stop any of their mps voting for boris ‘s date and i think with this much space, think actually some rebels will actually roll back and say they are not going to vote for it, they wa nt are not going to vote for it, they want more time. what you think will happen? the crucial thing is when the eu reply and what they say. if we assume that they say yes and they say the 31st ofjanuary, then
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debates will start in parliament over this withdrawal agreement, which is a massive piece of legislation that puts the agreement into domestic law. it will be big and complicated and potentially messy because it will fill out the details that the document agreed with the european union is pretty ambiguous about. then i suspect the select committees will start saying we need to have an enquiry into this that or the other. i think parliament will try and this out. that or the other. i think parliament will try and this outm is essential just to parliament will try and this outm is essentialjust to clarify, lots of viewers will be wondering, we have just heard the prime minister say one thing and then you are explaining to us the complexity of the legislation, his assertion at the legislation, his assertion at the dispatch box was that this could be completed as a parliamentary process and legislative process by the end of october. you are saying that that is pie in the sky. it is theoretically possible, absolutely, if parliament just waved this through a can be done in a few days. what i am saying is absent the threat of no deal of a get this
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extension, parliament will not feel the same pressures to do that and i find it hard to see the parliament would do that. we are going to let you go, you have been very patient, final thought, katy, on you go, you have been very patient, finalthought, katy, on where you go, you have been very patient, final thought, katy, on where we now stand looking at next week. what would you say to viewers about what they can expect in terms of the process next week? we will get a meaningful vote in terms of a vote on borisjohnson 's brexit deal and we thought we would get that today. i think it has become more a pill for borisjohnson to i think it has become more a pill for boris johnson to have a majority for boris johnson to have a majority for his deal and particularly a majority that has happened really quickly and another thing we need to look out for is what is happening with this extension. if an extension is granted, at that point do opposition parties bring down the prime minister in a confidence vote and go fora prime minister in a confidence vote and go for a general election? that is what the snp and labour have been suggesting they want and it may be that borisjohnson does not get the chance to try and push his brexit deal through. and we thought today was exciting! it has been
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this was the only way we could ensure that there was an opportunity
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to give the government a chance as well to reflect on what stopped the deal going through today. there was one way this could be changed which was ensuring the mechanism in which northern ireland could get out these arrangements for northern ireland using the voting mechanism and the belfast agreement. it sounded like you were doing them a favour. we were, and doing the people of northern ireland a favour too by ensuring they were represented and now enduring the scrutiny of the bill with amendments and changes that address some of the concerns, the rightful concerns, where people in northern ireland have about a bill that separates us from the rest of the united kingdom, and will damage our economy by putting a border between northern ireland and gb where most of our goods are sold.
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and are you concerned about another delay brexit? if they proceed with the bill through the house of commons, that might be something to avoid, having to write the letter and i'm sure he will have advice on that but one thing we were not prepared to do was to avoid an extension when the rest of the united kingdom left. we have the referendum that was voted on by the people of the united kingdom. it would be ironic having been one of the strongest brexiteers in this house and finding a company what about those who say in lawton northern ireland stays in uk customs union? we stay in the uk customs
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territory, that is right, and paper. in practice we are part of the eu customs arrangement and don't forget... the prime minister, although he says there is no border between northern ireland and great britain, we have to accept that the advice given by his own officials was that first of all, every good move from gb to northern ireland will be subject to customs declarations. that will be subject to customs checks were necessary. until manufacturing firms in northern ireland can confirm their output was not going into the eu, they would have to pay tariffs on any materials which they brought in. if that has not been part of the eu customs union, i don't know what is and of course the other thing is, it is very clear that we can only take pa rt is very clear that we can only take part in uk trade deals provided those things did not conflict with the protocols of the eu, of which there where i think 58 pages. just a
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look ahead to tuesday, that would be a second reading of the withdrawal agreement built. that is normally a general debate about the bill itself. it would need to proceed beyond that in order to get the changes you want. what will you do on tuesday? we will vote against a second reading. if it fails a second reading the bill and deal will fall again. given the speeches were made in the house today, it will get through the second reading because some party members will help it through. we will be able to put some concessions or lever is on the government to make changes to the bill which will not address all the concerns. are you still talking to the government? we want to work with the government? we want to work with the government. don't forget we actually want to deliver brexit. we have been the ones defined the
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chicanery that has gone on in this house and opposed it. we are not going to deliver brexit for part of the uk and not for the part we live in and in doing so constitutional it damage northern ireland and put a situation where in northern ireland d rifts situation where in northern ireland drifts and more towards unity with the republic. thank you very much indeed. you can hear there, not at all persuaded by the merits of the deal. still looking for some concessions from the government. if this bill comes forward, that could happen. vicki, many thanks once again and thank you to sammy wilson for joining again and thank you to sammy wilson forjoining us. vicky young, our chief political correspondent in the central lobby of the houses of parliament. a real sense that something hugely significant has happened in westminster this afternoon. the house of commons has decided by a majority of 16 votes that it wants to get through all of
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this brexit legislation before it is prepared to approve the brexit deal itself. that is a huge setback for borisjohnson, itself. that is a huge setback for boris johnson, although when itself. that is a huge setback for borisjohnson, although when he spoke after the vote in the house of commons, you wouldn't have thought he had suffered a setback at all because he said, actually, i am stillaiming because he said, actually, i am still aiming for brexit on the 31st of october. as anna and menon was telling us earlier, to get this —— as anand was saying earlier, to get this through by the 31st is to put it mildly unlikely. it gives the government a huge headache. let's think of what they are making in brussels of all of this. katya adler is there. if the prime minister, as we expect, signs a letter asking for an extension to this process, as he is required to do by law, what will the response be? first of all, the eu will not rush to take any action. as far as it is concerned it has negotiated a new brexit deal as requested by the uk government and
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now it is up to that government to sell that deal and its opinion. this can be summed up in a tweetjust now by the polish prime minister who says, we take note of the vote in the house of commons but not as a rejection of this new brexit deal, but a postponement of the approval of the new brexit deal. there is a zero appetite in the eu to renegotiate the deal itself and if the eu receives a request for an extension, don't expect a rush under the eu side to grant it. absolutely not. as far as the eu is concerned, the legal deadline before the uk it leaves the eu is the 31st of october. in order to approve or discuss a new brexit extension, all eu leaders will have to come back to brussels. they just left less than 2a hours ago. they could potentially hold an extraordinary summit to discuss that extension on the 31st of october itself because the deadline runs out at 11pm uk time.
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first and foremost, the european commission has said it will now wait to hear from boris johnson commission has said it will now wait to hear from borisjohnson what steps he plans next and what has changed since he stood here in brussels a day or so ago saying he was absolutely sure that his new brexit deal would pass today in the house of commons. bear with me for a second. just in line with what you we re second. just in line with what you were saying, on social media statement from the commission and this is it. that underlines what you were just telling us there. exactly. that is what the commission has said. they wait to hear from what the commission has said. they wait to hearfrom borisjohnson, all 27 eu national leaders now wait to hear because he absolutely promised
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them here at the summitjust over 2a hours ago that he was sure the new brexit deal would be voted on in parliament today and would be approved by the majorities of mp in parliament today. the eu, even if there is a request for a new brexit extension, will not hurry to answer that request. they have got time until the 31st of october to do so, and they hope that in hesitating they will maintain pressure on mps to really look at the second brexit deal that the eu has negotiated with the uk prime minister and think long and hard about what they want to do with it. they are saying at that moment they don't want to grant a new extension because they are fed up new extension because they are fed up with the brexit process. if push comes to shove, i cannot see eu leaders are saying no to a request for another brexit extension if the alternative, come 11pm on the 31st of october, would be that no—deal
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brexit that eu leaders have wanted so brexit that eu leaders have wanted so much to avoid. if they see in the uk that by having an extension it could mean a second referendum or a general election or a referendum on this brexit deal, i really cannot see eu leaders are saying no, you cannot have the extension. that is to unfold now in the days to come. thank you very much for the latest in brussels. cathy adler, our europe editor. in a few moments i will introduce my new panel. we have an exciting cross—section of people again. i will introduce you properly in a few minutes to get analysis on what is going on. just to shed light on the next steps. let's join vicki once again with guests in the central lobby. people here talking about the fa ct lobby. people here talking about the fact it seems that the leader of the commons, jacob rees—mogg, may have announced a meaningful vote next week. we think that is the second
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reading of the withdrawal agreement bill so effectively the government is going ahead as if they're deal has been approved and they will introduce the legislation which also needs to be approved before the uk can leave the eu. let's discuss this with conservative peter bone and liberal democrat chuck ramona. what do you make of what has gone on today? i'm fed up. a complete waste of time. it is my birthday and i have had to be here talking to you rather than eating cake. that doesn't sound good at all. you have ruined his birthday. a bad deal was put in front of us. it will be bad for our economy. all of the northern irish politicians in the commons today have said it impinges on the good friday agreement. parliament wanted to scrutinise it which is what the left—wing amendment allows us what the left—wing amendment allows us to do. the question —— the letwin amendment. the question is whether
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borisjohnson will send amendment. the question is whether boris johnson will send the letter he is required to do. i think he will because if he doesn't do it by 11pm today he will be in contempt of court because the government has given undertakings to a scottish court which they will send that letter. you can still send that letter. you can still send that letter at the same time as pursuing his bill. the question is when we will get a response from the eu to that, confirming that an extension is being granted so we don't drop out of the eu without a deal in the near term. do you think the prime minister should send a letter to brussels? i'm sure he will do what the law says. i think the leader of the law says. i think the leader of the house of commons is making a statement at the moment about future business. what i disagree with with chuka is scrutiny. we were all going to scrutinise the bill. we are here today because then act required something to be done. it was about having a vote today to see whether there was a bill and that will decide whether the letter is sent. we we re decide whether the letter is sent. we were not allowed to have that
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vote because of oliver letwin's amendment so it has been a complete and utter farce and up and down the country people are saying what and it is parliament doing? you people went to court to ensure there was a meaningful vote in this place. that was the opportunity today and when the benn act went through, people put it through in case there was an no deal scenario looming. there is not a no deal scenario looming because boris johnson not a no deal scenario looming because borisjohnson got a deal. not a no deal scenario looming because boris johnson got a deal. he got a deal with the eu but he needs to get it through the democratically elected parliament of the united kingdom. they haven't been able to have a clean vote on that today. that looks like it will happen next week. you won't have the outside of damocles hanging over. boris johnson doesn't have a majority in this place. you have shown as opposition mps that you can seize control of the agenda anytime full stop you could have stopped no deal. we wanted to sure we had enough time before the 31st of october because
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the mac which is why the deadline up to date was set, ten days before the scheduled date of departure. if we are not on route to leave with a deal that both the eu and the uk parliament accept then we should request an extension so we have more time to do that. i make no bones about it. peter is a hardcore, wants us about it. peter is a hardcore, wants us to leave the eu, and i am hard—core i don't want to leave. i wa nt hard—core i don't want to leave. i want to stop brexit because i think it is fundamentally bad for the country. you want to stop it completely. which is why i think it is important to make the point. there are hundreds of thousands of people outside parliament right now who also don't want to leave the eu and think, actually, this shouldn't be something thatjust and think, actually, this shouldn't be something that just 650 and think, actually, this shouldn't be something thatjust 650 mps determined. 65 million people's voices need to be brought to the table and have a people's vote. people's vote? we have that, it was the referendum. over 70 people's vote? we have that, it was the referendum. 0ver70 million people voted to leave and we still haven't left. parliament have let
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people down and let them down again today. thank you very much indeed. two very different views on brexit. we have heard a lot of them over the last few years. indeed, an understatement. thanks very much and thanks to your guests. if you're just joining thanks to your guests. if you're justjoining us on this bbc news special, let me update you on what has happened in the past hour. the house of commons has voted in favour ofan house of commons has voted in favour of an amendment which in effect builds in another delay to the brexit process, at least in theory. the prime minister could still get his way by the end of october but all experts suggest it is unlikely. the letwin amendment, which was presented by sir oliver letwin, was passed by 322—306, a majority of 16 and a heavy blow indeed to boris johnson and the government. his response was pretty blunt. he wasn't considering this to be too much of a setback and indeed now his
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colleague, the leader of the house of come on, jacob rees—mogg, has been talking about what is likely to happen next week. this is what the official parliamentary channel on social media is saying. soa so a possible so—called meaningful vote on this brexit deal on monday. this is despite the fact mps have decided they want to pass all the legislation, all the legislation involved with this brexit deal, before they gave their final approval to the actual deal. we can see that this is still a highly unstable, fragile and turbulent process. let's get the view of my panel — they've shifted around and with us now until the end of the programme are kevin maguire, associate editor of the daily mirror, laura hughes who is political correspondent for the financial times, and hannah white from the institute for government.
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thank you for waiting so patiently. i'm fascinated to know what you make of today and in the light of what we have just heard from jacob rees—mogg, what the next week brings us. rees—mogg, what the next week brings us. your take first. the queen speech is still under way, jacob rees—mogg would like to have a meaningful vote on monday but the big question about whether the speaker will allow the government to do that. the house hasjust been asked to have a meaningful vote and we have all learned clearly this parliamentary bill that you cannot ask the house the same question twice in one session. this speaker is taking advice about whether to allow this or not. kevin, what i wa nt allow this or not. kevin, what i want you to do, for those viewers joining us, underlined the significance of what happened today. it isa significance of what happened today. it is a saturday shambles and a humiliation forjohnson, but he has won the war. effectively no deal is off the table and he is required in law to send a letter to the other european countries are asking for an
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extension. he said immediately afterwards he would not negotiate an extension, but that does not mean he will not send the letter. you send a letter and not ask it, it is like the family saying organise a party for your auntie and you never quite get around to it. it will be difficult now, strains on party time on parliament, he has no majority in the house of commons or the house of lords to get his brexit plan, if it isn't rejected, to get it through by the end of october. what is your ta ke the end of october. what is your take on the likelihood of getting the necessary legislation through both houses of parliament by the end of the month? i don't think it is impossible, i really don't, and if you are the government today you would be going out and arguing that it is still within the reach of the prime minister to get it through. crucially, oliver letwin himself and other conservatives, independent conservatives who have had the whip removed, say they have given
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themselves the insurance policy of taking no deal of the table, that does not mean they support the deal of the prime minister and from now on, when boris johnson of the prime minister and from now on, when borisjohnson starts tabling actual legislation in the house of commons, they will support it. if you were going to be optimistic, you could argue that actually it is still not impossible, itjust makes actually it is still not impossible, it just makes the actually it is still not impossible, itjust makes the bar a lot harder and higher for boris johnson. itjust makes the bar a lot harder and higher for boris johnsonm itjust makes the bar a lot harder and higher for boris johnson. in the commons his majority is some thing like -ao, commons his majority is some thing like —ao, he lost it with the by—election and then there were defections to the liberal democrats, he has 19 mps who have had the whip removed, crucially he has lost those ten dup votes from northern ireland. they were the tail who enjoyed wagging the conservative dog. he has turned on them and nigel dodds and sami a speeches attacking their former ally. how he gets them back on site, i do not know. normally it isa on site, i do not know. normally it is a check, but they see it as fundamental now that there will be a
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border between their corner of the uk and great britain. it does not seem uk and great britain. it does not seem that they will compromise on that at all. just a thought about what anand menon told us earlier, saying, yes it is possible to get the legislation through theoretically, but what he was saying was you may well get request for committees to start scrutinising this, to have extra layers built into the scrutiny, which means that this is not something that can be donein this is not something that can be done ina this is not something that can be done in a few weeks at all and because it is by definition a highly complex piece or package of legislation anyway, why i'd even suggesting that it is realistic in that timescale. what would you say to viewers about the timescale and what the government might be able to achieve, given, as kevin says, that they are very hampered in of parliamentary numbers?” they are very hampered in of parliamentary numbers? i think the numbers have changed from when theresa may was trying to get her deal through and i think there was a point in the past couple of days
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when the government generally thought of before the limavady came along that they might be going to win this book today, but i think passing a piece of legislation is not a one—off meaningful vote, you do notjust not a one—off meaningful vote, you do not just need not a one—off meaningful vote, you do notjust need a maturity for that, when you pass the other treaties for les and maastricht, there were between 80 and over 100 votes on these things, you have to sustain your majority through that whole process, doing that under a rushed timetable look like a big challenge. why is it even been held up challenge. why is it even been held up as challenge. why is it even been held upasa challenge. why is it even been held up as a possibility? is thatjust borisjohnson up as a possibility? is thatjust boris johnson bravado? it is bluster. he will be embarrassed and stung by it. one government minister who is a true brexiteer, he has been a brexiteer for 30 years, there is no master plan. what he is trying to do, he is looking for way, he goes down that way, when he is not bad, he looks for another way, he is bullish about it, he does with good humour, but there isn't a master plan. you keep saying we can do it,
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but if you are the opposition parties, you will be thinking we are going to put down an amendment requiring treasury economic impacts, what will be the effect on economy of this plan? a reasonable request, but it would delay at several days. they will come in trying to attach, let us pass this plan, but then put it to another referendum, a fresh vote, a people's vote, but if you wa nt vote, a people's vote, but if you want to call it. it came within 12 volts at one point, the people's vote. there are lots of ways he will be slowed down and when it gets to the house of lords, the numbers he will be queueing up to speak, where they all think they are experts on this and tabling complex amendments, it is going to eat up a lot of time. interesting to look at the list of former cabinet ministers who voted former cabinet ministers who voted for the amendment today. they included david gauke, i know people who say, that is not that surprising, amber rudd, who was in
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cabinet very recently, phillip hammond, former chancellor, who has been pretty forthright on this in recent months, justine greening, greg clark as well. will theyjust be surprises, no surprises or surprises for the government? what is the impact of having people of that stature voting for this amendment? i do not think it is used to price, for a lot of them their priority has been to stop a no deal. they will do whatever it takes to ensure that that is still the case. it is worth looking at who put their names to the amendment, because they are split in terms of their overall objection, for that first half, the former tories, it was an insurance policy against a no deal, but the reason why the government are so nervous and why this is so problematic is that others, jo swinson, the welsh parties, their objection —— mac objective here was to delay it so there is an opportunity to delay amendments for a second referendum. sorry to interrupt, i mentioned david gauke,
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ta ke interrupt, i mentioned david gauke, take a breath, ok, i'm going to go back into the houses of parliament, because i think he is with vicki. he is and we are trying to digest what has been going on because jacob rees—mogg he was the leader of the house of commons said there is going to bea house of commons said there is going to be a vote on monday. the problem is there's not much detail on all of that, even the speaker was surprised by that. we do not know exactly what it will be, is going to be a straight vote on the brexit or is it possibly the first stage really of the legislation, the bill, the withdrawal agreement bill that would need to go through. let us discuss it with david gauke, the independent, we do not know for sure but this is about, but why would the government do this? one of the things that we saw today was if you like two issues being entangled. one was about whether the government should seek an extension to get a letter in, if something goes wrong with the legislation for the deal,
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that we have that in place so that we do not crash out without a deal on the 31st of october and people like me want to make sure that we have got that insurance policy in place. then there is also the issue of the prime minister 's deal and if parliament backs it or not. for someone parliament backs it or not. for someone like me, i want to make sure that the insurance policy is in place, but if there is a clean vote on the deal, then i would vote in of it. we did not get that today, so we do not have the details, i don't know what the motion will be, but i suspect that what the government wants to do, is in a way what should have happened today, which is that a clean vote on the deal, without disabling the provisions of the broccoli. that is the thing, we did not get to that vote, but people like you and others of your colleagues, possibly some labour mps, might well feel on monday, we would vote for the deal and now that we know that the delay has happened and we are not crashing out without
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and we are not crashing out without a deal. that is right. with the insurance policy in place, people like me can support the deal, we can get into legislation, we can scrutinise if there are particular issues, but basically wanting to wish this a fair wind and make issues —— making progress on this, we have more chance of getting labour people on board because they know they're not voting something because there is no risk of crashing out on october the 31st. i hope that the prime minister can make progress and from what i have seen today and talking to colin —— michael collins, he can win the vote but it is on monday or tuesday. do you think it is realistic that the bill that needs to go through, the withdrawal agreement bill, could get through by october the 31st? it is not normal to have something as important as this going through both houses of parliament quite quickly. it is very tight and the balance that needs to be struck is a proper scrutiny,
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ensuring that we do notjust push something through that is very important, but at the same time the public do not want this to drag on for ever and ever. it is important to get it right, but it cannot drag on for ages. i think it is a matter of getting the balance right. the 3ist of getting the balance right. the 31st of october is very tight, but let us see what the government proposes and if there is a workable way of doing that i would not want to stand in their way. as a former justice secretary presumably you would advise the prime minister to adhere to the law tonight and send a letter. he has to abide by the law. and no doubt he is getting advice on precisely what that requires. i don't think one should necessarily make a big thing about the letter. the effect in terms of providing an insurance policy is right, but in the end the way the government will be viewed as whether it has been able to deliver a good brexit. the letter is not at the heart of that question in a way and let's
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remember, if it is possible to get the legislation through by the 31st of october, the way the letter will have gone in, it will not be operative, because the whole process is done. it is still possible for us to leave on october the 31st. i always thought that was ambitious, but it is still possible. there's quite a lot of anger from some conservatives who have said, people went to court to make sure there was a meaningful vote today have actually stop that happening. it is very ha rd to actually stop that happening. it is very hard to explain to the public, particularly given that boris johnson does not have a majority here. opposition mps have shown they can take over the order paper and it could have stopped no deal and they did not need to do this today.” come back to this point i'm trying to disentangle the two aspects, whether there is support for the deal and whether we want to take away the protection that the broccoli provides. i don't think we should take away that protection, it remains there, but there are people who voted for the limavady including
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oliver letwin, who want to support the deal and want this to progress as quickly as possible. i am in that camp and! as quickly as possible. i am in that camp and i think next week, we can return to what is the issue of substance, what the bill is, what it does, where does that leave us and i think we ought to be able to do that andl think we ought to be able to do that and i think the government is set set fair in order go through the second reading of that whether it is a monday or tuesday. to go to go to the extra deal itself, how does it compare to the one that theresa may managed to negotiate, do you have any concerns, particularly hearing dup mps say how much they dislike it and think it undermines the union?” will be honest, i think the theresa may deal was a better deal. because of the union, but we have got to find a way through this, we have got to reach a deal, the theresa may deal didn't get through the house of commons and i suspect that the boris johnson deal will get through the
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house of commons on the second reading next week and although it is not perfect and i think there are things that we want to scrutinise, there are aspects of it that i think we need to properly understand. i think leaving with a good deal is still the best outcome for the country. david gauke, thank you very much indeed. so, we will try to work out exactly what that that would meet on monday, but it is interesting that for quite a lot of mps, if that delay to brexit, if that letter is sent by the prime minister and that is there as an insurance policy against leaving without a deal at the end of october, a lot might be more favourable and they might vote for borisjohnson ‘s favourable and they might vote for boris johnson ‘s deal favourable and they might vote for borisjohnson ‘s deal in whatever form it comes next vicki, thank you. back here on the grain outside parliament, i would like to take a look at parliament square which is not too far away and there we have sir ed davey from the liberal democrats speaking in the big rally
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i suppose, the big campaign rally in favour of a second referendum, a people's vote. let us listen for a second. a certain boris johnson, do you remember him? do you remember what he said? he said you could vote leave and we would still stay in the single market. can we believe anything our prime minister says? he does not have the mandate for this deal. he does not have the mandate for breakfast. and that is why we need a final say. and we will campaign with you all the way to get that final say. and when we do, we are going to do two things. first of all, we have got to reach out to our leave brothers and sisters because if there is one thing that this whole thing has taught us, it's that we live in a country that is too unfairand too
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we live in a country that is too unfair and too unequal and we must work together to tackle that inequality. cheering and when we come... huw: sir ed davey of the lib dems who is just one of many speakers at the rally taking place in parliament square. earlier onjohn the rally taking place in parliament square. earlier on john mcdonnell for labour and the former conservative mp. that is ed davey speaking. a big crowd of thousands of people who came down whitehall to parliament itself making the case for a second referendum because they feel that is the right approach. though of course as we know boris johnson and the house of commons indeed has voted against that option itself. anyway, that is the substance of today's demonstration here around the houses of parliament. what i would like to do before i have another chat with the panel is to look beyond westminster and talk
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to our correspondent across the united kingdom and in ireland. let's start with our scotland editor sarah smith who is in glasgow. given that the snp have played such a very important parliamentary role in this process, where does today leave the snp as a party, but more importantly where does it leave the scottish government's approach to the brexit episode? the scottish government will be very pleased with this. i spoke to the first minister about brexit and about the process earlier this week and asked her if she really believed she could still stop brexit and she said, while we remain members of the eu she will do everything she can to try to stop us from leaving. although it is a slim hope she thinks there is still a possibility. that is what the snp would ultimately like to see and of course they say if they can't get the whole of the uk to remain then scotla nd the whole of the uk to remain then scotland should be able to have a referendum about being independent and rejoining the eu. the thing to remember about this whole brexit debate in scotland is it looks
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rather different here because you hear politicians across the uk going on and on about how we have to respect the result of the referendum, that the will of the people has to be honoured. the will of the people in scotland when they voted in that referendum was to remain. 62% voted to remain. so that argument doesn't cut quite the same ice here. instead what you have is the snp repeatedly making the case that scotland is being dragged out of the eu against its will and that thatis of the eu against its will and that that is anti—democratic as well as potentially doing damage they say to the scottish economy, and they are using that argument not only to say brexit should be stopped, but also to stoke up the idea that westminster is not listening to what scotla nd westminster is not listening to what scotland once, that this system of the uk where all four nations are supposed to work together in their common interest simply doesn't work, that brexit shows the westminster system is broken, they argue, and that means they keep talking about wanting another independence referendum and think that all of
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this chaos in westminster is furthering their cause for that. good to talk to you. thank you. sarah smith with the latest in glasgow. let's go to belfast, chris page. we had some very strong contributions today from the dup who have really made life difficult for borisjohnson. certainly have really made life difficult for boris johnson. certainly in have really made life difficult for borisjohnson. certainly in the vote today and previous to that, given their view of the deal he struck. what is the view in northern ireland across other parties about what has happened today? there may only be 11 mps who take their seats in house of commons but their were critical. the ten dup mps voting for the letwin amendment. the independent unionist, lady sylvia herman, also voting in favour of the letwin amendment. they are all of the view that the deal needs to be scrutinised, that it
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drives a wedge between northern ireland and the rest of the uk. as far as the wider political picture in northern ireland goes, the other parties will say that the dup don't speakfor the parties will say that the dup don't speak for the majority of people in northern ireland, they will go back to the 2016 referendum and remind people that 56% of people here voted to stay in the eu. the dup was alone amongst the major northern ireland parties in wanting brexit to happen. sinn fein, the biggest irish nationalist party, they will point to the events at westminster and say they are farcical and they will say they are farcical and they will say the way to move forward for northern ireland will be for there to be another referendum, but this time on irish unity. that is unlikely to happen certainly in the near future, but sinn fein are very much viewing all of these events around brexit, all of these events around brexit, all the uncertainty in parliament, asa all the uncertainty in parliament, as a way to push forward their united ireland argument. as the fire —— as faras united ireland argument. as the fire —— as far as the dup is concerned they will be sure to use their negotiating leverage to the max, particularly the primary issue for
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them, i think, particularly the primary issue for them, ithink, overthe particularly the primary issue for them, i think, over the last few days has become the issue of democratic consent. they want the devolved stormont assembly here in northern ireland to have an upfront vote on the new arrangements for northern ireland for brexit. the deal borisjohnson northern ireland for brexit. the deal boris johnson proposed northern ireland for brexit. the deal borisjohnson proposed gives only four years after those arrangements come into force. the dup view that stormont was given an upfront dup view that stormont was given an u pfro nt vote dup view that stormont was given an upfront vote could solve a lot of their objections. one huge problem with that is that the stormont assembly hasn't sat for two and a half years because of the political deadlock that this agreement between the dup and sinn fein and the complicated politics of brexit is making the complex politics in belfast all the more difficult. indeed. thank you for the overview and the analysis from belfast. chris page. i want to go to dublin because keith doyle is outside the taoiseach‘s headquarters. i suppose
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this deal that boris johnson taoiseach‘s headquarters. i suppose this deal that borisjohnson struck was because he had basically come to a new agreement with the taoiseach in the talks they had in the past week or so. how will the vote in the commons today be seen in dublin? leo varadkar was instrumental in getting that deal between the uk and the eu. lee varadkar said that today eve ryo ne lee varadkar said that today everyone in ireland would have eyes only on the house of commons and by. only on the house of commons and rugby. for the first half of the day, i have to say, most irish interest where on rugby. the result of that was very disappointing as ireland got knocked out of the rugby world cup. disappointment there. and then for the irish government, disappointment at what happened in the commons this afternoon. ireland did not want brexit, doesn't want brexit. but the fact it is happening, the irish government did wa nt happening, the irish government did want this deal to go through. as you say, this deal was in part helped
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and facilitated by leo varadkar. he tried to help borisjohnson last night and today. he appealed to unionists to vote for this. he said this deal would not undermine the constitutional position of northern ireland or unionism. he said the queen would still be the queen, the pound would still be the pound, and people in northern ireland would still be posting letters through the royal mail in red post boxes are. that didn't go down too well with some unionists, certainly some members of the dup. now that this vote has been suspended, delayed, that will be disappointing for the irish government. as to what happens next, well, lee other advocate said yesterday that plan b is no deal —— lee over radtke said yesterday that plan b is no deal. what are we looking at? and extension. the taoiseach said the irish government would be open to an extension but warned that that may not be the case
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for the other members of the eu. it isa for the other members of the eu. it is a watching and waiting game to see how things develop in westminster. many thanks, keith doyle with the latest in dublin and the latest thoughts on what the taoiseach and the irish covenant will make of today's vote at westminster. let's go live to cardiff and speak to hywell griffifths outside the senedd. i'm wondering because if you go back three and a half years, wales did vote to leave the eu, so that has been a prime feature of the debate in wales. what will the welsh government be making on what has happened to date here? within minutes of that vote coming through, mark drakeford minutes of that vote coming through, mark dra keford tweeted minutes of that vote coming through, mark drakeford tweeted pretty plainly what he thought, that the pm must now obey the law and request an extension to avoid and no—deal brexit. the labour party here in
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wales is slightly, dare i say clearer than the westminster party. he says they should be another amendment, a second vote, and in that vote that welsh labour would campaign to remain within the eu. the first mistake mark drakeford making pretty plain, if one amendment can succeed, he thinks they should be another which opens up they should be another which opens up the thought of another eu referendum. although he leads the welsh labour party, he doesn't lead with one voice. we have also heard from stephen kinnock who was in the chamber. we learned he voted for this amendment. he has been a key voice, one of those leaders of the mps fora voice, one of those leaders of the mps for a deal. no one was certain which way he would go if it came to a meaningful vote. he now has a few more days to make up his mind but he said he voted for this amendment because he wanted more time to scrutinise the johnson because he wanted more time to scrutinise thejohnson plan. there has been concern here in wales as to what it would mean, particularly with that board it being in the seat between ireland and wales which could potentially mean fewer freight
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lorries coming to wales because of difficult time consuming customs checks. as you say, that is the view of the politicians. the view of the people polling suggests that they wa nt people polling suggests that they want exit to be sorted, so this possibility of a further delay will not necessarily go down well —— want brexit to be sorted. thank you very much, hywell griffifths, with thoughts on the welsh government response to the vote today. one of the most prominent supporters of the brexit process in parliament is the former conservative leader iain duncan smith and he is with vicki young. really trying to mull over what has happened today and maybe more importantly what should happen next. things are moving quickly. there is talk of a vote on monday. jacob rees—mogg announced that, although no one is entirely sure in which one it will be. let's try to talk about that with iain duncan smith, former conservative leader. to go back over today, we didn't actually get to a vote on the deal. you would have voted for it.”
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would. the thing i am picking up from out there, remain or leave, is they have had enough. they want us to get this done. the anger that is boiling up, got a's sake, get it done. they are turning attention on parliament. —— forgot's sake. oliver letwin producing this last—minute amendment which emasculated the motion and meant we couldn't move it. i gather, motion and meant we couldn't move it. igather, however, i hope, moving forward that the european union may well take a view that says, look, you will not get an extension, just get the dam built through. the prime minister either writes a letter or doesn't. if there we re writes a letter or doesn't. if there were a delay or if it were to be vetoed, that changes the dynamic stop it changes it completely because it means that there is no place to go for those who want to delay it. the delay would end in and no deal. the important thing is you need compression to focus minds in
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there. but now you had better pay attention and getting this deal through otherwise we will go to no deal. i want a deal. i would think most people in their want a deal and it is time to vote for it. if emotion comes on monday and it is clear from the eu that they do not wa nt clear from the eu that they do not want to give us an extension, certainly not at this point anyway, then there is no point in an amendment. in which case we can get straight to the motion. we have the numbers, that is the irony. we could have won the motion even without the backing of the dup. does that mean that it could get three by the 31st of october? a lot of mps will say scrutiny is needed. you can have ple nty of scrutiny is needed. you can have plenty of scrutiny. we need to timetable it otherwise people who don't want to get it through will delay it. this house can sit as long as it likes. i would advise the prime minister to go around the clock, just go around the clock. keep everyone here, have as much debate time as you want, don't go to
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bed. we will maybe do this for an hour or two. just do it. we have done that before on big legislation and then took it back to the lords and then took it back to the lords and tell them to do the same. i think we can get it through, we have roughly two weeks. work through next weekend, as well. we will stay here on saturday and sunday. sorry about that! we will get it done. that is how to do it. looking at the deal itself, you had some reservations about it. i did. i was itself, you had some reservations about it. idid. iwas concerned itself, you had some reservations about it. i did. i was concerned a bit about the consent issue with northern ireland. very concerned about how we get the next ia months done once we go through the period without being damaged by the eu. we will put some sovereignty clauses into the bill which protects us on that. and the government is guaranteed in ia months we will go ha rd guaranteed in ia months we will go hard for it, get the free trade deal. i am satisfied. a free trade deal. i am satisfied. a free trade deal is the end point. very much what we need. iain duncan smith, thank you. looking ahead to if this bill were to get through and of course people start to look ahead at
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what the future relationship with the eu will be like, but that is probably for another day. vicki, thank you. the time is precisely four o'clock on this bbc news special from westminster on the day mps have voted to build in another delay to the brexit process, in effect, by backing a very important amendment presented by the mp sir oliver letwin, which really cause a big headache for the prime minister because what mps have decided is they will not approve the prime minister's brexit deal until all the legislation attached to it actually is passed. that clearly presents the government with a problem. let's look at the numbers in terms of the vote that happened a short time ago. we had the resultjust before three
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o'clock with 322 mps voting for the letwi n o'clock with 322 mps voting for the letwin amendment, until the legislation is passed. a majority of 16. which in this house of commons, which is very tightly bounce, it's a pretty decent majority, and the role of the dup in northern ireland, the democratic unionist party, was crucial in the outcome of that vote. iam going crucial in the outcome of that vote. i am going to reintroduce the panel, and they have moved around a bit for us. let's underline the significance of what we had today and what the vote means, what it means for the
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government in terms of the plans for next week and the brexit process and delivering it for the prime minister as he wants to do. it's usually frustrating for the prime minister. when you look at the numbers, it's not impossible that if there had been an up and down vote on his deal as it stands, you might have got that through. he is now facing the prospect of writing a letter to the eu admitting to extending article 50, which he has repeatedly said and said today that he will not do, and this is a huge obstacle because now he will have to put his bill through parliament where it will be scrutinised, where people will seek to amend it, and it's a nightmare for him. it's not impossible. i still think number ten think it is impossible for it to be through by october, but going tomorrow and the sunday papers, they don't want headlines saying that borisjohnson is forced to accept an extension to article 50. it shows how low the
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trust is in parliament. number ten will say they are frustrated with oliver letwin for putting forward the amendment, but the fact he felt he needed to, and the only senior conservative politicians have felt the need to support it, they don't trust the prime minister when he says, if he gets the vote through he will leave with a deal by october 31, they still think there is a risk ofa no 31, they still think there is a risk of a no deal. kevin? boris johnson called the first saturday sitting of parliament for 37 years, since the falklands war in 1982, he thought it would be a great victory and the platform for him to get his brexit plan through. but it has backfired, a saturday shambles, losing authority again. there is no master plan. in truth we see that time after time after time. he thought he would get the general election, but labour didn't walk into his trap. he thought he could sideline parliament but he failed and lost in the supreme court and embarrass the
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queen. now this setback effectively rules out no deal and requires him to send a letter he said he would never send. he said he would do or die ina never send. he said he would do or die in a ditch on halloween if brexit never happens. politics is about momentum. if he had won today then he would have had momentum and he doesn't have it. instead he is rather deflated yet again. do we assume that the eu would extend? i think the eu, as ever are reconciled to the fact that the uk wa nts to reconciled to the fact that the uk wants tojump reconciled to the fact that the uk wants to jump out of the window but don't want to be accused at any
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point of having pushed us. that is the risk for them. i suspect the eu would like the outline agreement to begin with the amendment. but if it doesn't, they would want the eu to go with the deal as well. boris johnson chose his words carefully in parliament. he said he wouldn't negotiate that extension. that doesn't mean you don't send the letter, it means you send it and then don't bang on their door or ring the bell and bang the table. you wait and see. he always has hopes on his side. the majority is -ao hopes on his side. the majority is —ao something in the house of commons. he doesn't have a majority in the house of lords he
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they don't know what the impact would have been on the economy. so he is really in trouble now. the eu don't want to have to extend. they wa nt don't want to have to extend. they want this over and done with but more importantly they don't want a no—deal brexit. so they will grant an extension. there have been some comments from the french president that they would help boris johnson. they have said, we don't see why you need an extension. we have the deal, so need an extension. we have the deal, so get it through parliament. but ultimately they will not be left responsible for a no—deal brexit so they will extend it. could they may extend it for less time, until the legislation is brought through and help borisjohnson that legislation is brought through and help boris johnson that way, but crucially he doesn't want to sunday front page stories tomorrow that have a picture of him writing a letter asking for an extension. what about monday and tuesday and what jacob rees—mogg will propose, in
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effect what we could call a meaningful vote, probably on monday, although we expected it today. kevin, what does that mean? they are incredibly high stakes. monday and tuesday next week, the queen's speech debate and the vote. almost certainly defeated. if he sees that we have the legislation, he would have tried to get that through, but the speaker might yet rule, you have already had one goal so you can't bring it back in the same session. we have seen this before. now all eyes will be on interventionist speaker, who has given the executive a hard time all the way along. he has championed mps against the government so they will be fretting in ten downing st that their latest current plan doesn't allow them to go before the house of commons. how
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do we explain the context, the thinking at downing street, as they thinking at downing street, as they think about the process but always thinking further ahead to a potential general election and how they sell this strategy, whatever they sell this strategy, whatever the outcome is. how does monday fit into that? what is the purpose politically? what has to happen for us politically? what has to happen for us to leave with a deal is you have to have a meaningful vote and put the deal into legislation. it is possible that you could use the legislation too so you don't need the meaningful vote but the government's calculation will be you can't start on the bill until tuesday at the earliest so they will have to have the first meeting on monday if they decide to do that. they will try to frame this to say we are doing everything we can to fulfil the pledge so if they end up with a general election they can say, it's not ourfault, we were doing what we could, it was parliament and the courts and eve ryo ne parliament and the courts and everyone else who stopped a. back to the blame game again. and the prime minister will make clear that
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parliament has sent this letter, that parliament called for the delay and he will not want to take any responsibility for it himself. we can see the images of westminster here. it is a nice and sunny day now. the heavens opened when the vote happened, i don't know if that was symbolic or not but the sunshine is back out. you can see the palace of westminster covered in scaffolding and building work going on. because there is a major renovation of the houses of parliament that is about to start which will take a decade or more and cost around £6 billion. that is getting under way. the elizabeth tower clad in scaffolding. the crowd in parliament square. you can see the protest being addressed by senior politicians today. this is the demonstration in favour of a second referendum, or a people's vote, as they call it, those people who want this deal, whatever it is, to be put to a vote up and down the uk. and then defending on what to
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your view of the ballot paper would look like, that remain should be on it, or maybe no deal should be on it. but that is a debate for another day. but the principle of the second vote is what these demonstrators in parliament square are gathered for here today. they have made their way down from trafalgar square, to whitehall and parliament square where the crowd is being overlooked by such great figures from the past as winston churchill and lloyd george. a bit of a political context for you. one of those addressing the crowd earlier wasjohn mcdonnell of labour. we have also seen lib dems including sir ed davey and former conservative sam gyimah. that march is still under way. still listening to some of the speakers there.
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earlier we heard from labour leader jeremy corbyn. his response to what has been going on. we had a response from the commons from the dispatch box. this is what mr corbyn had to say a short time ago. yet another defeat for the government. they brought their case to parliament. we had an amendment from oliver letwin that was successful in essentially preventing the government is taking us preventing the government is taking us out of the eu without a deal. what do you think should happen now? i think we should have the opportunity to scrutinise what the government's plans are on this but primarily the prime minister must acknowledge he will abide by the benn act and make sure we do not crash out without a deal, and therefore there has to be an application for extension stop what he seemed to imply in a house he would not ask for that extension. what will the commons do then? the commons will come back on monday and i hope they will reiterate its view that we do not support or with the
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proposals he has brought back. the agreement he has brought back. and ensure there is no crash out. if he doesn't write the letter, or even if he potentially does, is it in our time, as some have suggested, for the opposition to table a motion of no confidence? we will do that when the time is right to do it. but our priority is to prevent this country leaving on the 31st without a deal. asi leaving on the 31st without a deal. as i pointed out in my statement to the house this morning that this deal borisjohnson the house this morning that this deal boris johnson has the house this morning that this deal borisjohnson has with the eu is not acceptable. parliament has clearly not accepted it today because of the damage it would do two jobs because of the damage it would do twojobs as because of the damage it would do two jobs as well as consumer, environmental and workers' rights in this country. and so, until we are absolutely clear there will be no crash out of the european union without an agreement, we will make sure the house is still sitting to hold the government to account.“
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the government asks for an extension, will you then say it's january, and if they then say they wa nt january, and if they then say they wantan january, and if they then say they want an election, will you whip for an election? when we are clear there will be no crashing out, then obviously that is the next stage for us, and we are the only party that was going to an election campaign, it's very clear, the terms of agreement we would seek to find with the eu, the five red lines we have a lwa ys the eu, the five red lines we have always outlined, and put that to a referendum within six months of the government coming into office. so people would get a choice between an arrangement with the european union that would protect our trade and rights, but put alongside a remain and reform option. jeremy corbyn, the labour leader, speaking to is a short while ago. i mentioned the fa ct short while ago. i mentioned the fact there were thousands of demonstrators in parliament square and behind us as well who want a second referendum. lots of them very, very opposed to the brexit process itself. some days here we
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have had far more people supporting brexit. for many people, the site of cabinet ministers drive them to angen cabinet ministers drive them to anger. feelings are running high on both sides. andrea leadsom and jacob rees—mogg, both cabinet members, experience some of that today after the vote. shouting shame on you! booing this was andrea leadsom earlier with a police escort leaving the houses of parliament. people shouting shame on you as she passed by. we have seen on you as she passed by. we have seen different instances of this kind of behaviour in the past, indeed on both sides of the brexit debate. lots of anger in the crowd
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today. andrea leadsom being escorted by police from the commons a short while ago. in a few moments i will speak to former conservative cabinet minister stephen crabb. but vicki young is back in central lobby. as you say, those people advocating for another referendum, a lot of them out campaigning today. labour mp peter kyle is backing just that. we didn't get to your amendment today. what other chances do you have now to try to bring about another referendum, which you have been campaigning for. we need to be clear, we didn't get to the referendum today because the prime minister chose not to put it to a vote. it's his decision and nobody else's. it's not parliament buying more time or refusing to do itsjob. parliament was chomping at the bit hoping to get stuck into both issues. the prime minister aborted it. we know there will be a motion
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presented on parliament again, the same one the government pulled today, so they will be playing games again, putting it in on monday. we know the legislation will follow so there are lots of opportunities for us there are lots of opportunities for us to put a full debate and allow people to express their views and have a final vote on it when the prime minister allows us to in the coming days. we will find the right time to do it. it has always been a compromise and we want to work with mps from across the house. if people and they want to focus on one thing and they want to focus on one thing and it not be this then we will give them that opportunity and respect it, but we will find the right time, probably in the next week. lots of people saying you have been running away from holding a vote in a house because you don't have the numbers for another referendum. absolutely not the truth. we push this to a vote back in march and were defeated by 12. the prime minister at the time, theresa may, was defeated that same week by 58. we are still the single proposition for brexit that has got closest to forming a majority. today the prime minister
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saw where the mood of the house was and the numbers. he was defeated on one completely procedural issue, which was to ensure we don't crash out if his legislation does not get completed, exactly what the prime minister says his own intentions were. you didn't back the deal. the amendment meant that the motion as amendment meant that the motion as amendment said we have looked at it but we will hold onto our support until the legislation goes through. so it didn't fulfil the benn act. that's not correct. all the legislation did was say, if the legislation did was say, if the legislation falls or stumbles, we can't fall out of the eu by accident. the prime minister says he doesn't want that to happen. the commons has said it doesn't want it, and we all agree on that. but the prime minister doesn't want to allow us prime minister doesn't want to allow us to put the measures in. nothing in the letwin amendment stops us leaving on the 31st if the prime minister gets his legislation through. we can see the prime minister acting in through. we can see the prime ministeracting ina through. we can see the prime minister acting in a really petulant
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way and if he sees the numbers are not right he runs away from the debate so we will now have the same debate so we will now have the same debate on monday. we know full well if the numbers are not going his way he will pull it again. a lot of people around here think enough of your collings would be willing to back that deal. he hasjust been defeated by 16 on something he says was essential. we know some former tories would vote for his deal. we will only find out when we have the vote. i wanted will only find out when we have the vote. iwanted it will only find out when we have the vote. i wanted it tonight. will only find out when we have the vote. iwanted it tonight. i will only find out when we have the vote. i wanted it tonight. i am will only find out when we have the vote. iwanted it tonight. lam not blocking it, iwanted vote. iwanted it tonight. lam not blocking it, i wanted a vote on a referendum tonight and if the vote passed on his deal, i wanted to get stuck into the legislation first thing on monday. incidentally, the queen was trying to parliament ten days ago because he said we needed the full legislative programme for government, but where has that gone now? we were supposed to have it next week on monday and tuesday but it has been swept aside. again, parliament did not make him do it, borisjohnson is parliament did not make him do it, boris johnson is running parliament did not make him do it, borisjohnson is running away from key votes tonight and it's important people recognise this because we
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wa nt people recognise this because we want a resolution on whether we will have a referendum or not. we want the resolution as to whether his deal is fit for our country or not so we can move deal is fit for our country or not so we can move forward in an orderly way. that's the view of those who wa nt way. that's the view of those who want another referendum attached to whatever deal that may or may not be approved by this place. thank you to vicki young and your guest. its a.19. with me as former conservative cabinet minister stephen crabb. a direct question, how did you vote for the amendment? i voted against the amendment because i thought it prolonged the confusion and uncertainty around brexit. we came here with a job to do, to provide clarity and a sense of going forward for the nation after three years when the house of commons has gone round in circles chasing its tail on brexit. we have the opportunity to break that deadlock today and we fudged it again. the amendment got in the way of it and the fact mps
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are walking around in circles tonight asking each other, what on earth happens next week, shows the fog of confusion continues to hang over this place. the prime minister was clear when he said he would press on and he doesn't regard it as a major setback, although it has been portrayed as such by others. and he wants to see brexit by the end of the month. is that remotely possible now the commons has decided that the legislation has to go through first before it gives its approval? it is possible and the house of commons has shown several times in its history that when it needs to and there is a world that it can pass major and sensitive pieces of legislation very quickly indeed. that's no reason why the house of commons shouldn't sit all night if necessary if we can honour brexit and get the legislation through. the prime minister is right to stick to his guns. we had a missed opportunity today to provide a strict yes or no vote on the deal that many people thought he couldn't negotiate on the deal. i think he
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has brought back a reasonable set of compromises and a brexit package and i think he is right to stick to his guns and make the house of commons have a yes and no vote on it. according to the leader of the house monday will provide another opportunity for what we call a meaningful vote. what are the stakes involved? the stakes are huge, as they have been throughout this. borisjohnson as prime minister has paid a high—risk game. many thought he would play it with bravado and be a tough no deal prime minister but he has proved them wrong by being a compromise on pragmatic prime minister and that is how he intends to carry on. if we get to a general election and the forces opposing brexit to continue to get in the way, iam brexit to continue to get in the way, i am comfortable going into a general election with a prime minister who has proved he is willing to compromise and be flexible on this. a final point, when you speak to your constituents and they say to you, will we see brexit by the end of october, with
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confidence, what do you say to them? can you say to them with full energy and commitment, yes it should happen and commitment, yes it should happen and there is no reason why it can't happen? following the vote today, what will you say? all i can do is carry on doing what i have promised them, to try to get it done by a certain date. my track record on brexit is known within my constituency, i have argued consistently for a deal that protects industries that are important in west wales like farming, but is also sensitive to the needs of northern ireland. boris johnson's deal, more so than theresa may's deal, treats northern ireland with the sensitivity i believe it deserves a. stephen crabb, thank you. let'sjoin deserves a. stephen crabb, thank you. let's join vicki young once again back in the houses of parliament because you have the lib dems leader with you. things have thinned out here and the action has stopped in the chamber. we will be
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back on monday to do it all again. jo swinson, liberal democrat leader, people watching outside will wonder what on earth has been achieved by today. you haven't had a meaningful vote on anything. what we need to make sure it is we don't have the risk of crashing out without a deal. frankly, people don't have much faith in the prime minister's reassurances on this. a conservative mp yesterday talked about backing the prime minister's deal because it gave the option of having a no deal crash out in ia months' time. therefore, what we had today was the house of commons voting on an amendment meaning the prime minister will have to send that letter to request an extension to article 50, enabling us to have the time to deal with this in a way that is not rushed. as a lib dems i obviously wa nt rushed. as a lib dems i obviously want to stop brexit and believe remaining in the eu is the best possible deal and i will use that time to argue we should have a people's vote and let the public have a final say on the brexit deal.
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hundreds of thousands of people are marching in london today for that very course of having a people's vote. many people with different views also had concerns there are no economic analyses or impact assessments on the prime minister's deal that the government have put forward that is updated as a result of the negotiations that have happened. it could still go through by october 31. even with what has been agreed today, there is a builder prime minister could come and bring forward, but they need to request the extension of article 50 because we are at the date specified in legislation and by law the prime minister has not secured for a deal, he has not secured support for a no deal, so he has to write the letter to the president of the european council. what happens if the extension is not granted? my understanding from brussels as they will. that gives us the time and space will. that gives us the time and space we will. that gives us the time and space we need in my case to argue for a people's vote, because i think thatis for a people's vote, because i think
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that is the best way to resolve this, rather than a that is the best way to resolve this, ratherthan a rushed that is the best way to resolve this, rather than a rushed decision in parliament. let the public look at the deal. this deal is bad for the nhs, bad forjobs, bad forthe economy, and that's why people need the right to reject it and choose to remain in the european union. clear view from the lib dems leader, jo swinson. thank you to vicki young andjo jo swinson. thank you to vicki young and jo swinson. as we approach the end of this broadcast, a quick word with reality check correspondent chris morris. tell viewers what they can now expect in the proceedings next week. one thing we will see is the withdrawal agreement bill, which is the massive piece of legislation thatis is the massive piece of legislation that is supposed to turn the withdrawal agreement into uk law, and more difficulties for the government there. they haven't got this vote done today but the withdrawal agreement bill in detail will have to set out how, for example, government ministers would pay money to the eu as part of a divorce bill, which many tory mps do
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not like. it would tell us how exactly the controversial elements of the northern ireland protocol would be implemented. every step of the way there are potential elephant traps in therefore the government. at the same time we have the queen's speech and that debate going on. all sorts of different legislative things have to happen. on monday we might have another go at a vote. it isn't clear, john bercow will make it clear when parliament resumes again. but today wasn't really all that super saturday. on we go. chris morris, good to talk to you, with some final thoughts on this final day here at westminster. it brings us day here at westminster. it brings us to the end of our special coverage today on this saturday. for viewers around the world, thank you for joining viewers around the world, thank you forjoining us, on the day the house of commons sat on a saturday for the first time in 37 years with mps delivering a defeat for boris johnson and his brexit agreement, in effect delaying it, backing an
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amendment forcing him to write to brussels today, later on, asking for that delay. so we can just hear once again how that vote on the amendment went. the ayes to the right, 322. the noes to the left, 306. the ayes to the right, 322. the noes to the left, 306. the ayes have it. mr speaker confirming the result of the vote on that amendment. the result meant that amendment. the result meant that the prime minister did not then present his bill for a vote today. he basically decided not to have a vote on his deal because the amendment bills in yet more scrutiny, and the government is
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extremely frustrated and annoyed about the result, although the prime minister try to make out, he insisted it wasn't in his view a massive setback. the best thing for the uk and for the whole of europe is for us to leave with this new deal on october 31. and to anticipate the questions coming from the benches opposite, i will not negotiate a delay with the eu either. and neither does the law compelled me to do so. i would tell my friends and colleagues in the eu exactly what i have told everyone in the last 88 days that i have served as prime minister, that further delay would be bad for this country, bad for our european union, and bad for democracy. the prime minister speaking earlier. that's all from westminster on this historic day.
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our coverage continues on the bbc news channel and on bbc world news. thanks for watching and goodbye. welcome to our continuing special coverage of today's events in the house of commons, where borisjohnson has vowed to press on "undaunted" with his brexit undaunted, after being defeated in the house of commons this afternoon. mps voted by 322 votes to 306 votes to back an amendment put by the former conservative mp oliver letwin , to ensure approval for the new brexit deal is withheld until all the necessary legislation has passed through the commons. so what does this mean?
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it means that, under the law, the prime minister borisjohnson will have to write to the eu asking for brexit to be delayed. he's been forced to shelve a vote on his new withdrawal agreement, and that highly anticipated vote will not now take place today. instead there could be what's called a ‘meaningful vote' on monday, when the government brings forward to the commons the withdrawal bill, which would enact the agreement in uk law. let's just hear the moment that vote on the letwin amendment came in. the ayes to the right, 322. the noes to the left, 306. cheering thank

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