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tv   BBC News at Five  BBC News  October 22, 2019 5:00pm-6:01pm BST

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today at five, we're live at westminster where mps are due to take part in two crucial votes dictating the future of the brexit process. arriving at the commons today the prime minister was facing a vote on his own brexit legislation and on the parliamentary time to debate the bill. a clear majority in the country is now imploring us to get brexit done in this house of commons. i say to the house, let us therefore do it and let us do it now and tonight. but for labour, jeremy corbyn insisted the government was not allowing nearly enough time for mps to consider such an important bill. it's an abuse of parliament, and a disgraceful attempt to dodge accountability, scrutiny and any kind of proper debate. the first vote here at westminster
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is due in a couple of hours. ministers warn they will withdraw the brexit bill if they lose the timetable motion, and they'll push for a general election. we'll have the latest on the debate in the commons. we'll be looking ahead to the votes and we'll be examining the likely options, so stay with us. it's 5 o'clock. we're live at westminster just a few hours ahead of two crucial votes which will dictate the future of the brexit process. at around 7 o'clock tonight the house of commons will vote on the main brexit legislation, the withdrawal agreement bill, and then, crucially, on the parliamentary timetable for scrutiny of the bill, which is limited to just
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three days of debate. many mps believe this is totally insufficient given the complexity and importance of the legislation, but the prime minister told mps this afternoon that if the timetable is rejected, and if he's faced with another long delay offered by the eu, he will withdraw the bill and try to call a general election. so, to underline, at 7 tonight there'll be a vote on the withdrawal agreement bill which runs to 110 pages, which puts borisjohnson‘s brexit deal into law. if mps back the bill, they will then vote on what's called a programme motion, setting out the parliamentary timetable. if that motion is lost, the prime minister warned that an election might be needed, possibly before christmas. our political correspondent helen catt has been following the day's developments. the prime minister is urging mps to back his withdrawal agreement bill, but along with reassurances, a threat. if parliament refuses to allow
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brexit to happen and instead, gets its way and decides to delay everything untiljanuary or possibly longer, in those circumstances the government can't continue with this. with great regret i will go directly to the point that the honourable gentleman raises. with great regret the bill will have to be pulled and we will have to go forward, much as the right honourable gentleman might not like it, we will have to go forward to a general election. the government is racing the clock to try to push the bill through both houses of parliament in just over a week so it can keep its pledge to leave the eu on the planned brexit day, next thursday. it gives mps just three days to debate the detail, not long enough say some for such an important document that is over 100 pages long. page after page of what amounts to nothing less then a charter to nothing less than a charter
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for deregulation and a race to the bottom. that's why they like it. a deal and a bill that fails to protect our rights and our natural world, fails to protectjobs and the economy, fails to protect every region and nation in the united kingdom. as it stands, mps will vote on the principle of the bill at second reading around seven tonight. if that passes, the vote on the timetable will be held straight afterwards. if both pass, then the bill will go immediately to the committee stage where mps will try to amend or make changes to it. the bill deals with the technical nitty—gritty of turning what is in the withdrawal agreement into uk law. so, for example, it sets out exactly how the uk will make payments to the eu. parliament has to pass this bill if the deal is to come into force, and if it doesn't, the default legal position is no—deal brexit next thursday. but it is thought that in that case the eu would almost certainly grant a further extension. but borisjohnson has repeatedly made clear that is not what he wants
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and if he abandons his attempt to get a deal past and pushes for an election, expect him to try to direct the finger of blame firmly at parliament. those are the day's development so far. the debate in the commons is still going on. the debate in the commons is still going on. let's get the latest now from our chief political correspondent vicki young. we had a sense earlier clearly of the position of the two front benches, but let's deal first of all with the prime minister's some would say threat, some would say assertion, that if he does not get the timetable through, he will withdraw the entire bill. he said this in the house of commons and a lot of people are seeing it as a direct threat. he said if the timetable is voted down and if the eu were to grant what he called a long extension to the end of january or beyond, he would decide not to
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progress with the bill any further. he cannot pull it, it may well have got its second reading, but it would not go through any further stages. the question is how would he get to the point of holding a general election? it is tricky to do under the fixed—term parliaments act. could he bring forward a simple one line bill so he needs a simple majority? if the extension, that delay to brexit had been granted by the eu to the end ofjanuary, if delay to brexit had been granted by the eu to the end of january, if you look at what is being said publicly by labour, they said if an extension is there and no deal is off the table, they would vote for an election. mps have said they want an election. mps have said they want an election. i have talked to a senior liberal democrat and they have also said they would back an election. it would be difficult for labour not to back one. you could be looking at a december election in that scenario. the other scenario is that the eu comes back and says we will give you an extension of a few weeks simply
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to get that legislation through and then borisjohnson to get that legislation through and then boris johnson has to get that legislation through and then borisjohnson has a choice. does he change and go against what he has said publicly about living on october the 31st, do or die? does he do that and accept a short extension oi’ do that and accept a short extension or does he lose the bill altogether? quite a tricky decision for him later or in the next few days. certainly tricky. when you look at the size and the complexity of the legislation, on average what kind of timescale are mps looking at which would seem to them to be a reasonable time to scrutinise a bill of this size? clearly three days is not enough for most of them, so what would be sufficient? this argument has been raging all day really. there are many who say we have been discussing this for three and a half yea rs discussing this for three and a half years and there will not be a single new argument put forward now because we have talked about it endlessly in
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parliament. on the other hand, people are saying they have not seen the withdrawal agreement bill before, it was only published yesterday, it is important that parliament does its job of closely scrutinising what is being set out. most people think that by thursday it is not long enough. there are people who would say another two or three weeks would be sufficient to get it through. but what the government argues is that there are some calling for more time to debate it who simply want to stop brexit and they say they are not being honest about it. equally on the other side there are opposition mps saying this is all because boris johnson made that promise and kept saying it, do or die, iwould rather die ina saying it, do or die, iwould rather die in a ditch than go beyond october the 31st. they say there is no need to do that, you can go beyond that and nobody would care about it. by 7:30pm this evening we will know what has happened. this is rory stewart the former conservative
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leadership contender. let'sjoin rory stewart the former conservative leadership contender. let's join the debate. in return people deserve scrutiny. this is a hell of a big document. we cannot pretend that two and a half days is long enough to scrutinise it. i know there will be many voices in the chamber who say we have been talking about this long enough and what are we going to scrutinise anyway? what speeches are we going to hear that we have not already heard? we going to hear that we have not already heard ? the we going to hear that we have not already heard? the whole place is a talking shop. we cannot think like this. this is our parliament, we cannot do down our parliament. this was an exercise, as the honourable memberfor was an exercise, as the honourable member for wokingham has said was an exercise, as the honourable memberfor wokingham has said again and again, in regaining the sovereignty of parliament. if it is about regaining the sovereignty of parliament, then treat parliament with respect. we are taking back control from a european court to a british court, treat the british
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court with respect. if you are taking that control from european parliament to a british parliament, then treat parliament with respect. if you are taking back control, then show that you are worthy to exercise that control. all i am asking for is a little patience. three days in committee, three days in report, you can have it done in the house of commons by the 31st of october and taking it to the lords. i promise you, there is moment for you, instead of being poisoned with the stain of illegitimacy, instead of being associated with bullying tactics and a casual attitude towards the supreme court and the monarchy and the parliament, can instead be done in an honourable, responsible and proper fashion of which you can be proud for the next 40 which you can be proud for the next a0 yea rs. which you can be proud for the next 40 years. jonathan edwards. rory stewart making the case for a much longer period of scrutiny for the builder borisjohnson's
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longer period of scrutiny for the builder boris johnson's government has put forward, it will put his brexit bill into law. it runs to 110 pages in the case being made by rory stewart a nd pages in the case being made by rory stewart and others is that the three and a half days set down for this rapid and intensive debate to get it through parliament quickly, there is a lot of opposition to it. at the european parliament in strasbourg the european council president donald tusk told meps the political situation in the uk had become more complex and that eu leaders would decide whether to grant any brexit extension based on what westminster did or did not decide. the eu's chief negotiator michel barnier said the deal reached last week was "the only possible agreement". from strasbourg our correspondent adam fleming reports. tonight, the moment of truth. good morning, sir. do you think it will go through? it's the only question being asked today in the european parliament. president tusk, do you think
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the deal will go through tonight? are you going to cross your fingers? presidentjuncker, do you think the deal will go through tonight? the answer can't come soon enough for some in the eu. in truth, it has pained me to spend so much of this monday dealing with brexit when i have thought of nothing less than how this union could do better for its citizens. waste of time and waste of energy. eu leaders are waiting for news from another parliament before deciding on a possible extension to the brexit process. i am consulting the leaders on how to react and will decide in the coming days. it is obvious that the result of these consultations will very much depend on what the british parliament decides or doesn't decide. we should be ready for every scenario. meps also want further reassurance about how eu citizens in the uk will be treated under the deal.
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i want to see this problem solved, dear colleagues. we don't want that eu citizens become victims in another windrush scandal in britain. that cannot happen. and for the brits, this is their last trip to strasbourg...again. on saturday, i marched with a million others in london calling for a people's vote. i marched because leaving the eu through the british government's rotten deal poses a threat to our country. parliament does not have a democratic mandate for a second referendum or cancelling brexit, and yet they are amending their way to it. control has been stolen from my people. and that's it for today, for meps on all sides of the debate. the next time they talk about brexit, it will be to approve the final deal and they won't do that until it's gone through all its stages at westminster.
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adam fleming, bbc news, strasbourg. kevin connolly is in brussels. let's talk hypothetically for a moment. let's say that this timetable motion at westminster is rejected and that therefore leads to calls for another extension, what is the likely response there? let's talk hypothetically for months, as we have been doing and we may be forced to do for a while yet. if the timetable motion fails, then donald tuskis timetable motion fails, then donald tusk is going to have a very intense talks with the leaders of the other 27 member states. they will have to come up with a plan. the feeling is that if things were going through parliament just about, and that if things were going through parliamentjust about, and there was a need for a short extension, you might be able to do that with a meeting of eu ambassadors here in brussels, or with an exchange of
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e—mails among the leaders. if the legislation at westminster fails, they will see that as a political problem that requires a political fix. that means the leaders, rather relu cta ntly fix. that means the leaders, rather reluctantly as they are all fatigued with this, they will have to meet in brussels face to face and work out what sort of extension to offer, a political extension to allow some kind of political fix political extension to allow some kind of politicalfix in political extension to allow some kind of political fix in the political extension to allow some kind of politicalfix in the uk. that would be a matter of weeks or months, the end ofjanuary that would be a matter of weeks or months, the end of january is that would be a matter of weeks or months, the end ofjanuary is a popular date. some people think it should be longer. that includes people like the french who are exasperated by the thought of another extension, but want to make sure if they are forced to give one, that it sure if they are forced to give one, thatitis sure if they are forced to give one, that it is long enough to allow some kind of political solution to emerge on the other side of the channel, on the british side of the channel. to add to the complication there are whispers from downing street again suggesting that the prime minister may say to eu leaders, i don't want a delay, i want to get this done by the end of the month, it will not
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help me if you offer another delay. how does that change things on the other side? i don't think that does because one of the big rules of the european union, which i know it doesn't always feel like this, but i think it is broadly true, is that you don't interfere in the politics at home of a member state. so any manipulation of the idea that an extension can be taken for granted, oi’ extension can be taken for granted, or it would be impossible on the other hand, that will not play in brussels' politics because they will never want to look as though they are intervening in politics in the uk and try to push things one way or another. they don't like the idea of brexit, that has not changed, they are brexit, that has not changed, they a re weary brexit, that has not changed, they are weary of the negotiations, that will not change. they accept, however, and this will not change either, that they have to grant an
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extension if it is requested because as donald tasker said today, they are never going to want to look as though no—deal brexit was their choice and their fault rather than something that came from the uk. kevin, good to talk to you. kevin connolly, our correspondent in brussels. kevin connolly, our correspondent in brussels. with me now is ian blackford, the snp's parliamentary leader at westminster. thank you forjoining us. it is a pleasure. you have made your view clearer about the legislation and the parliamentary motion itself. what do you think will happen later? the prime minister will get his way on the second reading. i fervently hope that colleagues reject the programme motion. what that is all about is the time we are given to debate. there is little time to discuss what is really complex legislation. in the committee stage, when the maastricht treaty was being discussed in parliament there were more than 100 hours for debate. it
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is really important, given the significance of this. whatever your view on this, this will affect us for decades, our children and grandchildren, and there has to be effective parliamentary scrutiny and i really hope parliament votes down the programme motion tonight. that is the right thing to do for all of us. is the right thing to do for all of us. give us the time to have a debate about the implications, what it means for northern ireland and the trading relationship, the environment, workers' rights. we really have to have scrutiny of this bill, it is a big bill, it was only published last night and parliament has to do its job. just a very clear understanding of the potential options. if the second reading gets passed for the prime minister, and if he gets his way on the parliamentary motion, what is left for you to do, you people who have got concerns about the process and the substance of it? can you do anything? yes, we will bring forward
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amendments because there are many things that concern people. if the bill goes through and it becomes an act and we leave at the end of october, we are then in transition and by the legislation we remain in transition by the end of 2020. but crucially the government has got to put into place is new relationship with the eu and it has little time to do that. if the government has not got a trading relationship by the middle of next year, it has to ask for an extension and the government has said it will not do that. there is a very real threat that. there is a very real threat that we crash out on a no deal basis at the end of next year based on decisions we take this week. i am saying to members to be very careful about what we are doing and the power we are giving to government. many people in the vote lead campaign want that no—deal brexit. for anybody voting on this bill and acting on the legislation, you have to be concerned about the implications. lots of people are
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focused sharply on the end of this month as the cliff edge, as people call it, but it extends way beyond that. it does indeed. the european union tends to take its time in negotiating trade arrangements with third countries. i don't think many people realistically believe we will have a trade agreement in place by the middle of next year. if the government does not extend in the middle of next year, we crash out on ano middle of next year, we crash out on a no deal basis at the end of 2020 and that is a price not worth paying. good to talk to you. in blackburn, the snp leader at westminster. in blackburn, the snp leader at westminster. the withdrawal agreement bill which mps are being asked to consider is complex and long. so let's get an explanation of what's in the legislation and the potential hurdles ahead at westminster for it to become law from our reality check correspondent chris morris. well, we know the new withdrawal
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agreement, which specifies the terms on which the uk will leave the eu, has now been negotiated between borisjohnson's government and the 27 other eu countries. so it's a draft international treaty and the purpose of the withdrawal agreement bill is to turn that treaty into uk law and to give the government permission to ratify it. so now the prime minister needs to win the backing of mps several times in short order to turn his agreement into legislation. part of the bill gets rid of the need to have an additional meaningful vote on the deal, the legislation would be enough. well what the prime minister wants to do is get this bill through by 31st october, to keep his pledge to leave the eu by then and if he had a comfortable majority in the house of commons then he might just be able to do that. but he's going to find that very difficult. first of all because this is a hugely constitutionally significant piece of legislation that mps are going to want to scrutinise the details of very closely and more than that
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mps are going to want to cause political trouble for the government. they're going to try and insert amendments in the bill to change the direction of travel. so what are some of the those amendments? some mps want to add the requirement of holding another referendum on brexit. others insist the aim after brexit should be to negotiate uk membership of a customs union with the eu, but what does the bill cover already? among other things, it sets out exactly how the uk will make divorce bill payments to the eu for years to come. it ensures that eu law will continue to apply in the uk as long as the post—brexit transition period lasts. it gives some idea of how the new protocol on ireland, setting a de facto customs and regulatory border between northern ireland and great britain will work in practice. and it makes the withdrawal agreement in some respects supreme over other areas of uk law. in other words, it gets into some controversial tropics. that is why the bill
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is tricky for the government. sensitive issues, such as what happens at the end of the transition period, can be fudged a bit in political communications. but here they have to be set down in precise legal language for all to see. so the government has tabled a programme motion, which is basically a timetabling motion which provides for the bill to get through the house of commons extremely quickly by the end of thursday this week. that is where a lot of political controversy today is going to be. the government is saying, let's get brexit done and get the bill through and mps will be saying, some mps will be saying, we don't want to vote for this programme legislation, because we want to scrutinise it properly. yes, the government says it's time to get brexit done, but if it can't get the withdrawal agreement bill through parliament in time, then the default position is currently that the uk would leave the eu without a deal on october 31st, but, under the terms of the benn act, the prime minister has sent a letter to the eu council leader, donald tusk, making a formal request for an extension to the brexit
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process until 31st january 2020. the eu will watch events in westminster closely over the next few days, before deciding how to respond to that extension request. chris morris, our reality check correspondent. he was taking us through the details of the legislation and the options within it and the potential impact of it. you get a sense of the content and the fact that lots of mps are complaining that they simply do not have the time to scrutinise this legislation in the kind of detail they would like. legislation in the kind of detail they would like. let's cross now to the houses of parliament where we can speak to sir ed davey, deputy leader of the liberal democrats. thank you forjoining us. what do you think is going to happen tonight, notjust on the legislation but on the programme motion? view in
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the tea rooms and the corridors is that the government will get a second reading, but it could be very close. on the timetable motion i think that could be very close and the government could lose that one. the reason is the government is trying to concertina a huge debate ona trying to concertina a huge debate on a massive constitutional change into just three days. i have started reading the bill and it is hugely complicated. there have been quite big changes since theresa may's deal, it is worse than theresa may's deal, it is worse than theresa may's deal, and i think this important bill needs scrutiny. mps from all sides of the house will want to vote down the prime minister's timetable so they can give this the attention it deserves. what did you make of the prime minister's contribution earlier? he said if i do not get the timetable as i propose it, and if i am faced with the eu offering another delay, i am withdrawing the
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bill? do you believe him?|j another delay, i am withdrawing the bill? do you believe him? i don't know because i don't trust this prime minister, but let's take him at his word for once. i think he is trying to bully labour mps. he knows he has lost the support of the dup, he has lost the support of the dup, he betrayed the northern irish by doing something he said he would never do with a border down the irish sea, so he has lost their support. therefore he will require a labour support. if his bill goes through tonight, if his timetable motion goes through tonight, it will be on the back of labour votes. he knows many in the labour party are worried about a general election, so he is threatening them with the possibility of a general election. i would say to my labour colleagues, don't be bullied by this man. he has tried to bully his own side, he lies and he changes his own mind and he does things he says he will never do. it is very important mps of all
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parties come together so that we act in the public interest, the national interest. if we do that and have a proper debate on what is before us, we can debate issues like the people's vote. the liberal democrats believe the final decision should be taken by the british people and we would like to insert into this bill are people's vote. let's go through another option if i can with you, and let's say he gets a second reading and he also gets his timetable in the way he wants it, what options are left to you because the legislation will go through the housein the legislation will go through the house in a few days? it may or may not, it may get amended and it may not, it may get amended and it may not and i would not want to predict the house of commons. let me take you further, let's say he gets this through, brexit is not finished. he is telling people brexit will be done, it will not be done. the first phase will be done and then we will go into the transitional period.
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that will take at least 14 months. people watching this, i have got bad news for you, boris johnson told people watching this, i have got bad news for you, borisjohnson told you that brexit would be done with this bill, it will not. it will go on for months and probably years. that is the reality because the whole thing is so complex and costly and difficult. that is why the liberal democrats say the quickest way to end this whole nightmare for people is to put it back to the people, a people's vote would not take that long, and we could stop this thing much more quickly than the proposal of borisjohnson. much more quickly than the proposal of boris johnson. good for you to join us. the deputy leader of the liberal democrats joining us from the palace of westminster. 28 minutes past five, more from westminster in a moment and on the ongoing debate in the house of commons we are looking ahead to those two votes at around seven o'clock tonight. the first is on the legislation and the second is on the
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timetable or the programme motion. the second one we think is the one thatis the second one we think is the one that is likely to cause more kind of tension in downing street in terms of the outcome. that is what we are looking ahead to. in the meantime, let's catch up with the weather. the sun is going down in what has been a much better day for many. further north there will be more cloud and breeze with rain close to the highlands and islands. mild for scotla nd the highlands and islands. mild for scotland and northern ireland and chile for england and wales. temperatures not far away from freezing. we will see changes in the southeast with more cloud coming in, it may be a few showers. cloud putting into the midlands and eventually into lincolnshire. generally dry across scotland and it will turn wetter in the west much later on in the day and in the
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afternoon rain in northern ireland. temperatures much like those today. not much changes on thursday with outbreaks of rain and cloud. brightening up from the west with sunshine and showers, some frequent heavy and thundery showers in western scotland and northern ireland and gusty wind as well.
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hello from the bbc sport centre. england head coach eddiejones says all the pressure will be on new zealand in saturday's world cup semi—final as he claimed his side's training session on tuesday had been spied on. jones said it looked as though there was someone filming england from one of the flats overlooking england trainning, the implication that it might have been someone from the new zealand camp. jones was asked if he had ever spied on any other teams training sessions in the past. i haven't done it since 2000 and... i better get my numbers right. 2001 we used to do it. you don't need to do it any more, mate, because you see everything. you can watch everyone because you see everything.'s training on youtube or whatever there is. there is everything out there. there is no value in doing that sort of thing now. absolutely zero. the champions league returns tonight and last year's runners—up
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tottenham are in desperate need of a win, notjust in this competition either. they face red star belgrade at home. tottenham havejust one point from two matches so far, but their last game in the competition saw them humiliated 7—2 by bayern munich. tottenham's league form has also been poor and manager mauricio pochettino has admitted hisjob is on the line if he can't turn their luck around. however, he says thatjust goes with the territory. i understand it's business. i understand. i am 47, 48. look, why do you think that i don't have white? because i don't pay attention to this. i only pay attention that we need to improve our performance. if we don't improve our performance, what is going to be the result? it's always the same in football. let's take a look at the other fixtures in the champions league tonight.
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amongst them, manchester city who're in action against italian side atalanta. city have made a perfect start in theirgroup with two wins from two. great britain's rugby league side were evacuated from their team hotel in auckland after a major fire at a neighbouring convention centre. they've moved to hamilton, where they'll play tonga on saturday in the first of four test matches on their three—week tour. jackson hastings is one of the australia—born players selected by head coach wayne bennett — he was the super league's man of steel last season and helped inspire salford to a first grand final. the home nations haven't combined to tour as great britain since 2007, they're also facing new zealand twice and papua new guinea. anthony crolla's final fight before retirement will be against the spaniard frank urquiaga next month. the former world lightweight champion will be fighting for the vacant wba continental title in his home city at the manchester arena on 2nd november.
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that's where he made his professional debut 13 years ago. the 32—year—old challenged for the world title earlier this year but lost to vasyl lomachenko. scotland's cricketers have had another blow to their chances of making the t20 world cup, with a surprise 24 run defeat to namibia in the qualifying tournament. namibia hadn't previously won a match in the competition, but that's two defeats in a row for scotland after they lost to singapore on friday. they're now fourth in their group. only six teams from two groups go through to next year's world cup in australia. we'll have more for you in sportsday at 6.30. thank you. the time is 5. 34. more now on our top story and the prime minister has
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threatened to abandon the draft legislation to turn his brexit deal into law, unless mps agree to get it through the commons by thursday night. a vote on the government's three—day timetable for debate will be held this evening. mrjohnson, who's promised to deliver brexit by the end of the month, told the commons he couldn't accept any delay. let's take a look at what we're expecting to happen in the commons later. at 7 tonight, there'll be a vote on the withdrawal agreement bill, which runs to 110 pages, which puts borisjohnson's brexit deal into law. if mps back the bill, they will then vote on what's called a programme motion — setting out the parliamentary timetable. if that motion is lost, the prime minister warned that an election might be needed, possibly before christmas.
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we have fallen into the hypothetical trap several times in the brexit story. with me isjoe owen from the institute for government. let's start with the first vote tonight on the legislation itself, is it your sense that that will get through? a lot of people running the numbers seem to think there might be a narrow majority for the deal. there may be some mps that are not in love with the deal, but are willing to get into the amendments and see if by attaching conditions it isa and see if by attaching conditions it is a deal they could support. if it is a deal they could support. if it does scrape through, there have been a number of these votes trying to get parliamentary support, if borisjohnson to get parliamentary support, if boris johnson can get to get parliamentary support, if borisjohnson can get a majority of mps behind his deal, even if some are still waivering, that is a position that theresa may would have
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loved to have been in. so it will be still a big moment. the question will be, does he get the time tabling. on that issue, when you have looked at the legislation, let's put it politely, how ambitious is it to get a piece of legislation like that through its stages in three days? what would your assessment of that be? there is one challenge which is the ambition of just driving it through the house of commons, where you need to be confident you've a majority that will stick with you vote by vote. so politically it is ambitious. from a scrutiny perspective, it is much shorter than previous pieces of legislation, big contentious pieces of legislation, let alone constitutionally significant ones. it is much shorter. there is an argument that says there has been plenty of hours of debate around brexit, a lot of this is about what will uk law say and how will it
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work? and mps, whether it is in the chamber orfrom work? and mps, whether it is in the chamber or from taking hearings from experts, to really understand exactly what the implications of some of these things are, there isn't necessarily possible over three days. let's say the prime minister gets his way on the time table, so then we are looking at the three days and the debate, after that, for those mps who want to take a more detailed look and maybe try to change one or two things, do they have the option to do that or not? they can use the house of lords. that will be the next step if the programme motion goes through. we know the house of lords particularly like to put detailed scrutiny into things called power, henry viii powers, the powers which minister will take to implement the northern ireland agreement. it almost says give us the powers and trust us and
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we will do it. mps could try and work with the mps to get amendments. but then you're into difficult times. you cannot time table the lords. they can take as long as they want. thank you. i'm just going to pop into the chamber, because owen paterson is on his feet, the former northern ireland secretary. let's listen to him. i find it extraordinary that members for... brighton pavilion talking in glowing terms about the benefits of the eu, a million tonnes of healthy fish dead, because of the stupidy of the way the common fisheries policy is managed. i'm delighted to hear we will bring back
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control of our ee z and manage them ina control of our ee z and manage them in a modern way, as i wrote back in 2005. the other area, i'm concerned what will happen in transition. secondly i'm concerned about this issue of northern ireland. only ten days ago i wrote an article that i was concerned by antagonising the unionist community, as the honourable lady mentioned, on numerous occasions we had an incident in new miles road last night, my feeling is there has to be andi night, my feeling is there has to be and i hope that thejustice secretary and lord chancellor when he comes to reply can give us some assurance that when we conclude a free trade deal with the eu, all these current arrangements in the protocol will be dissolved and this sovereign uk parliament and government will pass a law that northern ireland moves into the free trade agreement on a level of level
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pegging with the rest of the united kingdom. that might alleviate some of the concerns. the former secretary for northern ireland making the case that many unionists have been making. let's come back out to the green, with me is the conservative mp nigel evans and the former deputy speaker. you have been in the house how long? 20 plus yea rs. in the house how long? 20 plus years. this is my 28th year and we have known nothing like this. i have never seen have known nothing like this. i have never seen anything at westminster that comes close to this. even maastrict didn't come close. as an experienced parliamentarian, are you going to tell our viewers you think three days is enough time to scrutinyise this legislation. three days is enough time to scrutinyise this legislationlj scrutinyise this legislation.” heard joe owen say there are lots of researchers who will be read aspects of it, we have been debating the general subject for three and a half
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yea rs, general subject for three and a half years, those bits that deal with the most contentious bits, maybe the customs union, which i think is something for after we have left the eu. and then there are things like workers' rights and environmental standards that there are concerns about. it was raised in the house to the prime minister and borisjohnson said, we don't want to lower them. if something could be done to give them assurance that we are not going to stop people having maternity leave or cut holidays down to one week a year, then maybe we can bring a few more on board. there is a sense that we just might get the second reading through, because some labourmps, one said second reading through, because some labour mps, one said she wants to let it go at least to its next stages, so she can add things. whether that is enough, i don't know. but the important thing is the programme motion. what is your hunch on that? it is going to be a lot
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more trickier than getting the second reading through. i think that what you will find is some will vote for the second reading ing to go to second stage, but won't give it the programme motion and borisjohnson said you don'tjust pull it, itjust says there, but without a programme motion. what happens then? what happens then? the prime minister will make a statement and it may be the eu, they look at everything we do very carefully and with astonishment from what i can make out, they can say, we haven't given an answer on this extension to article 50 that you sort of asked for. if we give you an extension, is that time for a general election. that is what borisjohnson wants. the snp want an election. jeremy corbyn probably wants an election, but a lot of people around him don't. i was with emily thornberry
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yesterday and i asked her, if you think a second referendum is so popular, why are you so low in the polls. she didn't answer it, but went on to the fact she doesn't want a general election, because she thinks that will be about brexit and general elections should be about general elections should be about general things. i think that is code for we don't want an election while jeremy corbyn is leader. how does the prime minister get a general election if he can't get a majority in the house to vote for pun? -- vote for one. if the eu give you an extension and the snp on poord board and the liberal democrats come on board, it is very hard for the labour party to say we want a general election, but not yet, it is becomes more difficult and it may be persuasive to say, all right let's just do it and the dates are 28th november and 5th december. so we can
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get it out of the way and whoever is prime minister, if it is boris johnson, the programme we have got will be part of our manifesto. are you expecting an election before christmas? yes, i have been expecting an election for some time. the last thing we want is paralysis, which is what we have got at the moment. if he can't get his deal through and everybody said he couldn't even get a deal, but he has got a deal, if he can't get there through, why? are we going to carry on. the labour party could keep him prisoner in no 10. but we are not focussing on other bits of legislation. i heard you on the queen's speech day describing the p°mp queen's speech day describing the pomp and circumstance of that whole occasion, wonderful as it was, we still haven't voted on the queen's speech yet. how much of his programme could he get through with the minority government we have got? we may as well move on. if we can't
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get the bill through, as far as i'm concerned and i think there is a desire out there from the public. they want to get brexit done. if not let's get the general election done at least. thank you. nigel evans there. now we have listened to some of the debate in the house of commons this past hour. let's get a bit more of a flavour of some of key points raised during the afternoon. and start with the prime minister warning mps that he will try to hold a general election if they fail to support him. if parliament refuses to allow brexit happen and instead gets its way and decides to delay everything until january or gets its way and decides to delay everything untiljanuary or longer, in those circumstances can the government continue with this is? with regret i must go to the point the honourable gentleman raises, with great regret i must say the
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bill will have to be pulled and we will have to go forward, much as the honourable gentleman may not like it, we will have to go forward to a general election. i do not, not does my party indicate we have any desire to stay within the eu. but what we do demand is that since we are part of united kingdom, since we took pa rt of united kingdom, since we took part in the united kingdom—wide referendum, that as part of the united kingdom, we leave on the same terms as the rest of the united kingdom. the the deal is on the table, the legislate what issing —— legislation is before us. the country is imploring us to get brexit done. let us do it and do it now and tonight. this a big of huge significance and complexity and will decide the future of our country and the future of our economy and the
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economic model we follow. and to propose a programme motion at the end of this debate, will mean all 68 clauses have been considered and voted on in 24 or 48—hours, starting this evening is actually an abuse of parliament and an attempt to dodge accountability, scrutiny and any vote. for many people back home in towns like wigan, this is an article of faith in the labour party and democracy and those of us who are seeking to engage in the detail do so not because we support a tory brexit, our votes are not secure, because we want to see if we can improve the deal and keep people's trust in our democracy. my view is we should vote against the bill for the reasons i have set out. i understand her view that it is possible to amend it in committee,
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thatis possible to amend it in committee, that is always the process. but my recommendation would be to vote against this bill. the truth is we are faced tonight on two votes with are faced tonight on two votes with a simple question — do we now want to give the reality to the vote in 2016 when the british people voted to leave the eu? if we delay it one more time, not only will we have defied them, worse than that, the british people will utterly lose face with this place, which i think has to be their representative body, but it will seem to them it is no longer. let us get this done and start that process tonight. what is a fundamental piece of legislation, which is going to affect all of us, our children and grandchildren for for decades to come, we must have scrutiny. get brexit done. that is
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the latest slogan, we have been hearing from the british government. but allowing this bill to move to the next stages would not mean an end to brexit. it would not even be the beginning of the end, it would simply be the end of the beginning as we enter phase two and start discussing trade arrangements. the british government will be negotiating one of most complex trade deals in history, different from all the others, as it would seek to build barriers rather than break them down. i believe this house also needs to take account of the shift that we are seeing in attitudes amongst other governments in the eu. sometimes i think that collea g u es in the eu. sometimes i think that colleagues in this house are guilty ofa colleagues in this house are guilty of a bit of wishful thinking. frankly those governments no longer hanging on hoping that the united kingdom is going to change its mind.
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they are impatient, they are increasingly exasperated with all political parties and the ability of the uk system to take a decision on this matter. as far as the eu governments are concerned , this matter. as far as the eu governments are concerned, they want this brought to an orderly conclusion as soon as possible, in a way that does as little harm as possible to the interests of eu. that was david lidington speaking in the house of commons. pippa crerar is with me. what is your sense first of all of the vote on the legislation? i think it's accepted here at westminster that the second reading vote will go through. i think that the fact that the ex—tory rebels, almost all of them are planning on backing it and
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a substantial number of labour mps with leave seats, who are not necessarily backing it because they support the substance of it, but they don't want to amend it and make it better legislation. some mps stuck their heads up and said we are not necessarily going to get it to the third reading, they want to see what happens next. the consensus seems to be that the prime minister will with a small majority get the second reading through. what is interesting next, the time tabling. just looking at the images of house of commons, later at 7 o'clock, it will be much fuller than that. i'm going to bring in steven swinford of the times. your thoughts on the time tabling, the programme motion? what are you being told by people in the palace of westminster, certainly the tory whips, what is their hunch as
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to how it will go. it is very tight, they think there are one or two votes in it. they're braced to lose it. if we do lose it, they will find without the extension motion there is no time to ram it through before october 31st and if so boris johnson will say we don't want a long extension and he is suggesting that he could be open to a technical short extension. that do or die brexit pledge could fall tonight. that is i mean the stakes couldn't be higher. when we look at the time tabling of this legislation, and this is to think again about labour strategy, what can you tell us about the way labour is trying to manage expectation and what is its own approach. labour's chief whip has written to his government counter
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pa rt written to his government counter part and says he thinks that the time table is not sufficient. it is three days to get this crucial legislation through the house of commons, that is less than the wild animals at circus act and less than maastrict and lisbon treaty. labour feel they would like longer. the government's response is you're trying to just stop brexit again and there won't be a sufficient conclusion. but in the letter today, after an offer to sit with his counter part, nick brown said they should work out a time table, which i understand would be a short extension to give mps time to scrutinyise the legislation and go through the controy verse shall elements. —— controversial elements. if they look at the figures and think they're not heading in the right direction, is that a realistic compromise? it is possible. and
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let's not forget there are two votes. if borisjohnson can let's not forget there are two votes. if boris johnson can get a majority for a brexit deal, that is something quite extraordinary. it would be the first time since the referendum anyone's managed to pull that off. theresa may never got close to it. it is a question of how long that takes. also it is a question of when does jeremy corbyn wa nt question of when does jeremy corbyn want an election to be held? ultimately that is in his gift at the moment. we have spoken to nigel evans and other mp5, nigel was forthright in saying he is expecting an election before christmas. that is his hunch, what do you think? the prime minister's tried to do that twice and give mps an option to do it on twice and give mps an option to do itona twice and give mps an option to do it on a third occasion and they did not. so he has tried it. it is not in his gift. he is dependent on the the leader of the opposition pushing ano the leader of the opposition pushing a no confidence vote or a vote of house of commons majority to get
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through the first... the fixed the term parliament act. neither of those looks likely. although term parliament act. neither of those looks likely. althoutheremy corbyn likes a general election, many people around him, including i'm told the majority of shadow cabinet and some in his inner team who are not so keen on the idea and would be happy to extent it further and push it possibly beyond christmas, where it might be looking better for labour. timings? two key dates, december 5th and 12th. anything after that, if they can't get an agreement will have to start after christmas. where will you hold the polling booth. cabinet ministers are talking about late january or early february. but in all honesty it is down tojeremy early february. but in all honesty it is down to jeremy corbyn. he early february. but in all honesty it is down tojeremy corbyn. he said he will only do it when a threat of
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no—deal brexit is off the table. thank you both very i much. it is four minutes to six. just before 7 o'clock on bbc news channel and bbc two, we will be hear with a special bbc news programme on those votes and don't miss that. in the meantime over to darren and the weather. it has been a day of mixed fortunes. a better day in the south, with sunshine in the south—east. it felt very pleasant. it is turning chilly. it won't be so cold further north, where we have had the cloud. tonight some rain flirting with the highlands and islands, otherwise it is dry. where you have clearer skies in the south, there will be some mist and fog patches. milder further
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north into scotland and northern ireland, where we have a breeze and that cloud and some rain not far away. further south, the mist and fog will lift, but we will see more cloud coming into the south—east of england. maybe a few showers. some cloud spilling into the midlands and lincolnshire. the rest of england and wales seeing more sunshine and mostly dry in scotland. it will turn wetter later in western scotland and northern ireland. that front that is bringing that rain and it will move into england and wales and near the other front bringing showers from the south east. wetter in england and wails over night. —— england and wales ore night. that will allow brighter skies to come in from the west with showers and some heavy showers in northern ireland and western scotland and some strong and gusty winds here as well. the temperatures similar to today, and very similar to what we are expecting tomorrow. 12 to 15
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degrees. there was the expectation we could get some warmer air by the end of week. that looks less likely, because this rain is in a different place. along that front we are developing an area of low pressure which slows the rain and pushes it into england and wales. still low pressure to the north of scotland and windy in the morning. clouding overin and windy in the morning. clouding over in many areas. rain coming in from the south—west. wettest in wales and the north—west of england and nudging into the borders and northern ireland. mild tore the south, where it should be largely dry in the south—west of england. the rain could cause some issues. the rain could cause some issues. the heaviest rain will be in wales and the north—west of england. by saturday there could be 100 millimetres of rain over the hills and that could lead to local flooding and travel disruption.
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the prime minister tells mps to back his deal, and to back his timetable or says he could push for an early general election. two crucial votes take place this evening. the first to see if boris johnson's brexit deal has the support of parliament. the second to see if mps will agree to rush it through in just three days. the deal is here on the table. the legislation to deliver it is here before us. a clear majority in the country is now imploring us to get brexit done. but it's the timetable that's expected to cause most problems — with many mps feeling they're being given too little time to debate such crucial legislation. page after page of what amounts to nothing less than a charter for deregulation with a race to the bottom.

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