tv Victoria Derbyshire BBC News November 11, 2019 10:00am-11:01am GMT
hello. it's monday. it's ten o'clock. i'm victoria derbyshire. good morning. £4 billion a year extra is needed just to maintain the social care system in england at current levels. could this become the defining issue of the general election? last week we spoke to edith monk. she is 32 and has ms. her council hasjust told her that because of a shortage, they've got no carers to help her. it's really stressful, and it just feels so fragile and every time it gets harder because, obviously, ms is progressive. like, between last year and this year, my right hand has got worse and weaker and i just feel
like i'm going to have to fight this for the rest of my life. we've got three people here who've struggled with the system in england. what should the parties be doing about this? let us know your own experiences. over 100 people who live in flooded fishlake near doncaster are defying the authorities and refusing to evacuate their homes. we'll speak to some of them. and the police officer who was standing next to pc yvonne fletcher when she was shot dead outside the libyan embassy in london 35 years ago, john murray, tells us exclusively why he's still fighting forjustice for her. he's brought a legal claim against a former aide to colonel gadaffi. i want the person responsible for what happened that day to face justice. the suspect was arrested two years ago. the cps decided there was insufficient evidence to press criminal charges.
hello. welcome to the programme. we hope you had a good weekend. we are alive until 11 o'clock this morning, as we are each weekday.“ you are still flooded, wherever you are, let us know how you are coping and what you will do, particularly with more rain forecast for yorkshire and the midlands. environment agency has issued more than 50 flood warnings across the country, including five severe warnings on the river don in south yorkshire. if your places flooded, let me know how it is going. send an email with a photo if you can. firstname.lastname@example.org. we are going to talk more about that later. at first the news with carrie gracie. british steel is set to announce a rescue deal
with chinese investors which could save up to 4000 jobs. the £70 million agreement will secure the future of the firm's flagship scunthorpe plant, but there's a warning that costs may have to be cut. british steel has been kept running by the government since may, when the company went into liquidation. two cannabis—based medicines to treat epilepsy and multiple sclerosis have been approved for use on the nhs. it follows new guidelines from the drugs advisory body, nice. the move has largely been welcomed by medical charities, but some parents who pay thousands of pounds for cannabis medicines say they're unhappy that those products are still not available on the nhs. we'll be speaking to one parent of a child with epilepsy later in this programme. political parties are marking armistice day by promising measures to support military personnel and veterans. labour wants to improve pay and housing conditions. the conservatives have pledged new protections to prevent former soldiers from what they describe as vexatious legal action. the uk economy returned to growth in the third quarter.
gdp increased by 0.3% betweenjuly and september, according to the office for national statistics. construction and the services sector performed well, but manufacturing failed to grow. two people are critically ill after violent scenes in hong kong. a protestor is being treated in hospital after a riot policeman shot him at close range. footage has also emerged of a second man who confronted demonstrators being doused in a flammable liquid and set on fire. more than two inches of rain could fall today in parts of northern england, where five severe flood warnings — meaning there is a threat to life — are already in place. river levels are rising again. an raf helicopter has been strengthening flood defences in doncaster after a months worth of rain fell in just 2a hours. a state of emergency has been declared in two australian states
which are under threat from bushfires. the authorities in both new south wales and queensland have been struggling to control dozens of fires, which have killed three people and destroyed scores of homes. firefighters say the weather conditions are getting worse and that the coming days are critical. there is another top news stories. back to victoria for the rest of the programme. thank you. the adult social care system is in crisis and could end up as a dominant issue in this election. today, the independent institute for says councils in england need an extra £4 billion a yearjust to maintain social care services as they are. last year alone, local authorities received over 1.8 million new care requests. the ifs says an ageing population and an increase in the number of working age people with disabilities has led to the funding crisis.
the social care system is different across the four nations of the uk, and we've got three people here with different experiences of the system in england, where social care is not necessarily free at the point of use, and some politicians to tell us what they think should be done. first, let's have a look at this stark illustration of the crisis, a case we highlighted on last week's programme which had a huge impact on social media afterwards. 32—year—old edith monk has ms. she's an accountant and lives independently with the help of carers coming into her home twice a day to help get her in and out of bed, showered and dressed. but her council has told her that because of a shortage of carers, no one can come in and help her. i am just in complete limbo. my existing agency was so short—staffed and they gave in their notice to social services.
i had a call on friday for the first time telling me that my care was ceasing this week, and they were looking for a new agency. as of yesterday morning, no—one could be found. my parents had to drive over, last night and this morning, to hoist me into bed, get me out of bed, and i'm waiting for a call from social services. i'm hoping after this there will be a missed call on my phone to tell me if i've got a carer tonight or not. it's really distressing though, isn't it? not knowing. yes. it's really stressful and itjust feels so fragile and every time it gets harder because, obviously, ms is progressive. like, between last year and this year, my right hand has got worse and weaker and ijust feel like i'm going to have to fight this for the rest of my life and itjust gets harder.
we have an update on this case this morning. "care update: two agencies are visiting me today for ca re assessments to hopefully commence asap. why did i have to go a week without care & go to victoria derbyshire and the ms society to get here?! so tiring & tiresome. i will need social care for rest of my life. wish the system worked." this morning we are speaking to kayteejones, a nurse and a single mum to two year old jaxon, who has a range of life—limiting conditions, as well as a life—threatening heart
condition. she says her local council and the nhs treat her like a ping pong ball, making her go back and forth between them. iain hutton, whose mother—in—law pauline, is 87. she is disabled, doubly incontinent, and has alzheimers. pauline‘s been in a care home for 6 years. he says it's cost £150,000 so far. adam gabsi is a rapper and has multiple sclerosis. he is the chair of a disability charity. barbara keeley is labour's shadow minister for social care. dr sarah wollaston is a lib dem who was chair of health and social care select committee. we were also due to be joined by a conservative but they have pulled out of the conversation this morning. can you tell the audience and our fellow guests about your son and his disabilities? he has a range of disabilities. barter syndrome, cytomegalovirus, and severe... what does that mean? learning disabilities. he has got this done
his brain had poor liverfunction for the first year. his kidneys don't do what they are supposed to do. they get rid of all of the things that our body needs. he is solely tube fed. 0n things that our body needs. he is solely tube fed. on top of that, with a heart condition, it is life—threatening. what we are looking at here is either caring for him for the rest of my life, or worst case scenario, his life being shorter and him needing care in that time. he is tube fed, so because it doesn't take large volumes, he had gastric problems as well. we have to utilise the full 2a hours of the data to get to minimise his vomiting, which is a huge problem. —— the full 2a hours of the day to get food in and minimise his vomiting. we need a specific feeding plan over 24—hour is. he has video every day. he had speech and
language therapists. he can't walk. he can't talk. you can say a couple of words but they don't match what he is saying. he doesn't sign or use any other communication methods either. it is just a battle. continence problems on top of it all. when was the last time you had all. when was the last time you had a proper sleep? probably last night before i came here. the first time! you have been told that jaxon no longer qualifies for the level of ca re longer qualifies for the level of care that he was receiving and his ca re care that he was receiving and his care plan could be taken away by the local clinical commissioning group, the nhs. 0bviously local clinical commissioning group, the nhs. obviously you disagree with that assessment. tell us why you say you are now being thrown back and forth between the nhs and social care? jaxon qualified a year ago and they have an annual review. you go through this every year. every year you have that anxiety of whether
they will suddenly become ineligible and this yearjaxon was deemed ineligible and didn't meet the criteria of continuing health care. when they said that to me in my kitchen, he is ineligible, i sat there and then i will have to appeal this. it is putting our lives at risk. i called social care out of desperation for some help and i was told that his needs are predominantly have, then health care should be meeting those needs. i got a letter a few days later saying they had heard my concern is that they had heard my concern is that they were not taking the case at this time. i then called continuing health care again to say that social ca re have health care again to say that social care have said this so what is the situation? they said he is ineligible and it has been confirmed by panel, and his care will stop on a certain date. i said in the assessment that you would refer to social care, so accepting that he
does have needs and somebody needs to provide it. have you put that with end? she said no. we could see on the system that you have done that and they have rejected it so there wasn't anything for us to do. you are stuck in a medal. they are washing their hands of us. i did have guessing it is social care and vice versa, and nobody taking responsibility and leaving us in the lurch. thence then we have appeal that we are in that process and we are waiting for panel to come back and reassess. i called social care again when i had a bit of a breakdown when we got the reassessment by the continuing health care and i could see it going the same way. we had a different assessor. what do you mean you had a breakdown? i had to finish the meeting halfway through because i was crying my eyes out and i could see where it was going and they were going to say he was ineligible again. we were months down the line andi again. we were months down the line and i thought we had such a strong
case. he has 12 to 15 nappies a day. and eight or ten of those can be through the night. there are health reasons behind that because of his kidneys. there are communication issues. he can't tell me if he is hungry, thirsty, in pain, if he needs help. when he vomited to silent with no communication. you don't care if it is the nhs or social care because you just need some help. it is so obvious. actually, there are similarities with ian, with your mother—in—law. she is 87 and severely disabled, without sinus. she was deemed not ill enough for continuing health care, on the nhs. she was passed on to social care and they said that she is too ill for them to provide ca re she is too ill for them to provide care for her. what happened?“ she is too ill for them to provide care for her. what happened? it went to an appealand care for her. what happened? it went to an appeal and the health authority overturned social services. this is very similar to
kaytee because you have this health ca re assessment and kaytee because you have this health care assessment and they are very nice to you and they were calling her mum, and they made us feel really warm, they are there to help us. really warm, they are there to help us. but what they consistently do is down score the actual health needs. they really we categorise them into social care needs. from our point of view, the way they do this, if you have property, assets, it is means tested and then you have got to pay for your care. so your mum has been ina home for your care. so your mum has been in a home since 2013. how much has it cost your family? somewhere in the region of 130,000. what do you think of that? it is disgraceful. we have someone with a memory of less than two minutes. she is hoisted out of bed in the morning, washed and dressed, hoisted into a padded wheelchair, cannot mobilise herself, and she has got depression. she is
also unable to let any of her care needs to be known, said they have got to be assessed by the carers. and she has got to be prompted to eat and drink. she has other illnesses as well. a still says she hasn't got primary health care. we were nearly at one point of getting it. but then it came back, they said we don't believe it's complex enough. not intense. and so they keep trying to put a stop at this point. we have reported about the issues with families trying to get continuing health care. and it feels like they are trying to get there in the go close of change. exactly. adam, let me bring you in. before we talk to the politicians. he said getting help and support was difficult and at times emasculating. tell the audience what you mean. even though it's not an emotional issue, the fa ct it's not an emotional issue, the
fact having to get assist financially on a yearly basis. and you have two let the council know some of your most embarrassing features. it can be emasculating. the way you look at yourself, take that down. i think, i am chairman of a charity. the association of disabled people. we need many people to fund our services, or welfare benefit services. the adult social ca re benefit services. the adult social care services. because harrow council have pulled out. and they are reassessing everyone. and with regards to care, the contribution is oi'i regards to care, the contribution is on the increase. and that's all over the board. i am currently dealing with a lady who has multiple sclerosis. she cannot use her hands. and therefore cannot fill out an appeals form. she doesn't have talked to type set on her computer
so talked to type set on her computer so she cannot do the appeal and therefore needs advocacy. the council have cut her funding. so we can't provide an advocate. but she is in desperate need. so that's the situation where we need to have donors, we need to find people with a good heart to give us the money to subsidise the cost that they are cutting. since 2010, central government has cut 700 million is spent less within communities within social care. iam going i am going to bring a neighbour and the liberal democrats to see what they were due to help you. we were going to talk to the conservatives but they pulled out. sarah wollaston, you were a conservative mp until earlier this year. i am not asking you to speak on behalf of the conservatives, but you were a tory mp when the conservatives cut billions from the social care budget
from 2010. i was chair of the health and social care select committee and we looked at this over a number of yea rs, we looked at this over a number of years, working with the systems assembly, to see what needed to happen and what has happened is a disgrace. we have more than1 million people who are not getting the care they need. what i was going to say to you what? i want to tell you what i think should happen. and iam going you what i think should happen. and i am going to ask you this. i checked your voting record this morning and you supported austerity and this is the result. moving this into local councils, and this is something i have repeatedly told my collea g u es something i have repeatedly told my colleagues about, if you move it into local councils the trouble is that the areas with the highest need to have the least ability to pay. i was very clear with my colleagues that their plans under brexit will make this far worse because what we will see is what is even worse with the nursing tax they will introduce to make it more expensive for nurses
to make it more expensive for nurses to come across from the eu, that will be even worse for social care workers because many of them, most of them, and under the threshold of 30,000, and the amount they will have to pay is even greater. we will see a very fragile social care system, completely dismantled, as a result brexit. what we need to see is much more realistic plans for how we fund this. we have had 20 years of reports describing the problem and what i have been arguing for and i have been doing so all my time as chair of the health and social care select committee before the election, is rather than describing the problem, we need to get on and have practical solution that this is what i have always been pressing for. so what would the lib dems do to help our families for. so what would the lib dems do to help ourfamilies here for. so what would the lib dems do to help our families here today? we will be publishing our manifesto next week but what i am hoping we will see its cross—party working, not just to be will see its cross—party working, notjust to be describing the problem again but to set out how we are going to find it. what we have
seen are going to find it. what we have seen is years of political failure with one side calling it a dementia tax and the other side calling it a death tax. we worked with the citizens assembly and we have a range of possible solutions, and now we need to get on and have a mature discussion about how we share the risk and make sure that social care is properly funded so that we don't see people going without the care they need. i am going to bring in barbara from labour. the report from institute for fiscal studies shows that an extra 4 billion a year would be needed on top of labour's pledge of6 be needed on top of labour's pledge of 6 billion. and your plan is also only to provide free adult social ca re only to provide free adult social care for the over 65s so it wouldn't help adam and it wouldn't help jaxon. it is a plan that falls short in terms of money and access. it is not good enough, is it? you are only talking about one particular aspect of our plan. there are four strands
to our proposals for social care. the first one is we have already pledged £8 billion across the parliament to do with the care crisis. what we have just heard there from the people with you, victoria, is a crisis and a scandal. people shouldn't have to be fighting the system as they are and it is totally wrong. in the first place we had already pledged £8 billion. the free personal care comes on top of the money we had already pledged to deal with the crisis. then we are also going to propose a cap on care costs, said the catastrophic costs that you heard there, 130,000 being spent on care, there will be a cap on care costs. and finally we will work very hard to improve quality of ca re work very hard to improve quality of care they were changing the terms and conditions and improving pay and conditions for care staff. there is other four elements of our proposals. but according to the iff it is still not enough money and
also what the issue really is is the assessment system which is not fit for purpose. i agree. so assessment system which is not fit for purpose. iagree. so can assessment system which is not fit for purpose. i agree. so can you pledged to scrap the current assessment system and make it suitable? i think you are in a situation of an assessment system being used for rationing. if there was sufficient funding to fund nhs continuing care, we wouldn't be hearing it. it is my experience when trying to help constituents is that what happens is there is a continuous marking down to make sure the person doesn't qualify and that is not what staff should be doing. staff in the nhs and local authorities should be working to help people and working to find a ca re help people and working to find a care package that meets their needs and we must get back to a situation where that happens. 0f and we must get back to a situation where that happens. of course what we have seen is a reliance on council tax, which the iff report points to, and i am insulted at my
local authority has lost nearly 50% of its budget since 2010. budgets have been slashed and it is totally wrong that local authorities and nhs staff are pushed into doing this with assessments. it is not the assessment process itself. there just isn't enough funding in the system. hope on twitter says my dad lives in a nursing home. he is 91 and he has dementia and he scrimped and he has dementia and he scrimped and saved all his life and yet he pays privately. care costs are more than those who cannot pay for themselves. effectively he is subsidising the council which is not sustainable. full tweets: my wife has ms and as her condition got worse, i was advised i should get help. it took eight weeks to get a one hour a day care package in place. social care is on its knees. nina texted: last week i saw edith on your programme and i really felt for her. i have a rare condition thatis for her. i have a rare condition that is also progressive and degenerative. i did get any help at
all either and i am sending hugs to edith. daryl said: way not scrap hsz? that edith. daryl said: way not scrap hs2? that said that could help their social care system with 60 billion. penny says: my mum needs daily care andi penny says: my mum needs daily care and i live two i was away and i spent several days a week with her but the care companies are not able to cope and my mother had 21 different carers in three months which added to her confusion. let me ask you will briefly and finally, you have heard sarah wollaston of the lib dems and barbara of labour, sadly no conservative representative. do you hear stuff that will help you? do you trust politicians to do something about this? i think there is a lot of focus on funding when ultimately the prevention is not there, as we have discussed. at the end of the day it is ok saying it costs this much and we need to find the money from somewhere and we are having cuts, but if the money is put in the right
spot to start with, instead of having money but in the appeals process. i have been to the gp twice about my mood and jaxon has been in hospital. it is more expensive by not doing it properly in the first place and i think that comes from the assessment tool being used. as a nurse myself, it disappoints me that these are nurse excesses dealing these are nurse excesses dealing these assessment tools, and as a nurse it is person centred care and it should be holistic. that is not what is happening here. do you trust politicians to stop this? not at all. boris johnson said he would sort the health and social care system sort the health and social care syste m o nce sort the health and social care system once and for all. it is disgraceful. both governments have known this problem for a long time. green papers have been promised and promised and delayed and delayed. we we re promised and delayed and delayed. we were told it was just a few details to be sorted. i don't believe them. it is election propaganda and they need to sort it out. for the
environment, young people can go marching in london but old people can't and it is high time this be sorted. they undermine disabled people's human rights to live an independent lifestyle. it would be good for a party to scrap these charges. regardless of which party is in charge, these charges have got to stop. what the lib dems scrap those charges, sarah wollaston? our ma nifesto those charges, sarah wollaston? our manifesto will be out next week that the point is this is notjust about funding. it is also about the work force and how we value the social ca re force and how we value the social care workforce and that has got to be at the heart of everything that people look at going forward. if you don't have the workforce in place, you're not valuing them and paying them properly and you are not supporting carers, and we need to make the difference to people's lives. i have got to leave it there but i appreciate your time. sarah wollaston of the lib dems, barbara keeley from labour and adam and iain
and kaytee. please keep in touch. we wa nt to and kaytee. please keep in touch. we want to hear about your cases. still to come: an exclusive report on pc yvonne fletcher. she was 25 when she was shot dead outside the libyan embassy in central london 35 years ago. the man who was standing next to her when she fell talks exclusively to us about his search for her killer. the nhs in england is about to approve two medicines derived from cannabis, but many patients are still set to lose out. we'll speak to the father of one of them. over a thousand residents in the flooded village of fishlake near doncaster have decided to ignore warnings from the council and stay in their homes. more than two inches of rain could fall today in parts of northern england. river levels are rising again, and the raf has been called in to help bolster flood defences in bentley. yesterday borisjohnson visited matlock in derbyshire, another of the affected areas,
and picked up a mop. let's speak to pam webb, who owns and runs truffle lodge, a spa which is completely under water. she also lives there. she is the leading member of a group of business owners and residents who have refused to be evaucated from their homes. alsojoining us is clair and louise holling who run the old butchers cafe, and nicky hill whose house has been flooded. nikki, iwill nikki, i will start with you, if i may. you are outside at the moment. cani may. you are outside at the moment. can i see how deep it is? you can see where the water has actually gone down. it has gone down a lot, did you say? if we put the camera back on you, how deep is it still? it is just below my wellies outside. inside it is going down. in different places it is different. this side of the village we are stranded. unless you have a tractor
or 4x4, you can't get anywhere. do you think you have to fight instructions to get out? —— you have defied the instructions?” instructions to get out? —— you have defied the instructions? i don't have a lot of choice. looters have been coming into the village and boats. i wanted to stay for now. we don't have an option because nobody is telling us where to go and what to do. i have seen nobody. nobody from the council has given me an option of where to go, to a rescue centre with three children. fairenough, fair enough, but the council is saying is anyone who refused to heed the evacuation orders, they won't be helped by local authorities, what do you say? they are not helping people, my mum and dad have been evacuated, they are staying with a friend. let's bring in pam who runs a nearby lodge. how are you? as
nicky rightly and correctly reports, the flood levels are receding at the moment. the environment agency are continuing to give out a warning of severe weather that could create the possibility of more flooding. the appeal to the environment agency this morning directly to the chief executive was would he get a member of the environment agency to come here who could make a decision as to get some pumps here? without pumps local knowledge, people who have lived here well into their 90s has said there is no way this water will go anywhere, it's in a holding pattern until we get pulled out. just to say, we are showing the audience pictures that you have let us audience pictures that you have let us use, showing us around your home and your spa us use, showing us around your home and yourspa and us use, showing us around your home and your spa and we've been told by the environment agency they are going to start pumping which
presumably is something. in the last 40 minutes they have got in contact, we've got a gentle man here who i've now met, he has enough authority to have agreed, he's met with the commanderfrom have agreed, he's met with the commander from the fire service, they are working together now, on they are working together now, on the back of one of the local tractors to identify the points where pumps need to be and the good news is they are going to start activating the pumps and start getting the water out of this village so people can start to return to some kind of normality, businesses can start to function, people can get back into their homes and start to regroup and get their lives back together. have you got any idea how much damage this flooding has caused to your home and business? huge amount. i can't trade at the moment, i can't live there, i'm grateful to louise and claire,
louise, iam i'm grateful to louise and claire, louise, i am staying on her property at the moment, until some insurance assessor has been in, i have no idea, i will also want to thank the people who have booked in at the lodge over the next few months that are sending wonderful messages, that are sending wonderful messages, that are bearing with us and we are trying to do our best to get back up and running, get this village back up and running, get this village back up and running, get people back into this lovely village and get back to normality. let me bring in clare and louise, you are staying with them at the old butchers cafe. good morning. there's quite a lot of feedback. we will try and sort that, louise, and claire. why haven't you left? we are housing some of the residents at my house at the moment but the major problem is we are a farming village, we have livestock, cattle, goats. we can't evacuate and leave the animals
and no one seems to be taking this into consideration. when the council says we can't help you when you don't leave, you say that's fine, i will take that because i need to look after the animals. the line keeps we are trying to keep the residents who don't want to leave the village safe. we simply cannot leave, we can't abandon their animals and leave the village to go toa animals and leave the village to go to a rescue centre. your line keeps breaking up, i'm really, really sorry, i am going to go back to nicky if i may, i think herface time is working. nicky, i hope you can still hear me. maybe not, maybe you've got more important things to do which is fair enough, the environment agency will be coming and pumping soon. let's hope that is the beginning of this clear up operation for you and your family, you can see nicky there, talking to
people who are coming on boats and tractors to help evacuate residents. so yes, nikki, i don't know if you can hear me? sorry, i'mjust getting some help. who are you chatting to? they are the rescue workers. they are helping me secure my mum ‘s else. that's good to hear. listen, i'm really grateful for your time, else. that's good to hear. listen, i'm really gratefulfor your time, i know you've got a lot on your plate, i really appreciate it, all of you, cani i really appreciate it, all of you, can i say thank you to the communities that are helping us? we had so much donated. ijust want to say a huge thank you. no problem, cheers, nicky, we wish you all the best. thank you all, thank you for your time. if you are coping with flooding, send us an e—mail, tell us how it's going, whether you are getting the help that you need,
whether at the pumps are arriving, send us an e—mail. 0r message me on twitter. pc yvonne fletcher was shot dead 35 years ago while she was policing a protest outside the former libyan embassy in london. bullets were fired from inside the building. herfriend and colleague — former police constablejohn murray — held her as she died, and ever since has been trying to find her killer. a civil action has been launched by lawyers acting forjohn murray — they have served papers on saleh ibrahim mabrouk, a former aide to libyan leader colonel gaddafi. it aims to force him to appear in court and reveal who shot the officer. 0ur reporter clairejones has been speaking tojohn murray and has tracked down and brought together three other officers who were on duty the day yvonne murray was killed. it's a story of an unsolved murder
that started 35 years ago. it's been a long fight but the events that day were horrendous and horrific. a 25—year—old woman went to work but never came home. it was a very bad day and it affected everybody. while carrying out herjob, the woman was shot in the back. the man stood next to her held her as she died. it's something i will never ever forget. ever since he's been trying to find her killer. it's taken a long time. we've waited 35 years. you will get justice. i'll make sure of that. this is his story. 0n the 17th of april 1984,
pc yvonne fletcher was sent to police a protest at the libyan embassy in london. shots were fired from a window of the embassy and yvonne was shot in the back. a short time later, she died from her injuries in westminster hospital. yvonne's death started a tense diplomatic stand—off between uk and libyan officials across different sides of st james' square. over the coming days, the police hats that fell during the attack continued to lie on the streets, becoming a symbol of the ongoing tension. john murray was the man stood next to yvonne when she was shot and killed. for the past 35 years, he's been trying to find out the truth. i want the person responsible for what happened that day to face justice.
the suspect was arrested two years ago, the cps decided there was insufficient evidence to press criminal charges. john is bringing a civil court case against saleh ibrahim mabrouk to try to get him to reveal who shot yvonne fletcher. saleh ibrahim mabrouk was one of a number of libyans deported from the embassy after yvonne's murder. he returned to the uk in 2000, when he began studying for a doctorate. he was arrested in 2015 in connection with yvonne's murder but was told by police in 2017 the case would not proceed. his son, 0sama saleh ibrahim said at the time his father didn't do anything. i'm now suing mr mabrouk in the civil courts. i believe i've got sufficient evidence to take that further. this is my last chance. i have waited 35 years for this, and it will happen.
so this is stjames' square. this is the site where, on the 17th april 1984, pc yvonne fletcher was shot from the former libyan embassy and murdered. this is the first time in 35 years that four of herformer colleagues have come back to the scene to remember what happened on that day. we have tracked down and brought together retired metropolitan police officers clive mayberry, tony long, john murray and mattjohnson. this is yvonne's memorial. you've probably never seen it before. 35 years ago was the last time i was here, yeah. wow. no, it's sad. it is. it's sad. such a young girl, you know what i mean? i've been retired 25 years now. that poor girl didn't live to see 25. the police hats of yvonne, john and other officers remained at the scene for ten days of the siege. requests for yvonne's hat to be
returned for her funeral were refused by the libyans but clive mayberry decided to take matters into his own hands. i was annoyed. i knew the commissioner had asked for the hat and they'd refused. when a person in uniform dies, they always put the hat on the coffin. they killed her and yet they wanted to stop her having her hat as well. that's taking the mick, isn't it? so that was it. i was going to get it. all i wanted to do was get the hat, pick it up and go. i got the hat out, grabbed my helment, which had rolled off, put it on. i saluted the libyans, and then i legged it straight back over there and then got arrested by the inspector and another pc and dragged off down the road. very embarrassing really. story of your life. i'm in uniform, you know. they used to call me uncle clive because i was an older pc. clive was never charged. in fact, his actions received national attention but no—one knew his name. we're the first to reveal it.
so despite you actually being arrested for you retrieving the hat, you also managed to get freedom of the city. yeah, being a naughty boy and getting the freedom of the city of london. that's good, isn't it? south—east london boy does good. all of the men had a role to play on the day of yvonne's death. tony long was a firearms officer, who was sent to the scene after the shooting. our primary object was to contain it to make sure nobody could escape, and to make sure that there was nobody on show who could get shot. we were there, dealing with people that had harmed police officers and we wanted to see them arrested, and we should have been able to put handcuffs on the person that shot yvonne and we had to watch them leave. mattjohnson was driving the ambulance escort vehicle that took yvonne to hospital. we received an emergency call over the radio to say,
"could we go to regent street to pick up an ambulance to escort it to the westminster hospital on the hurry up. we didn't realise it was a shot police officer and we didn't realise it was yvonne fletcher and that she'd died. when the news came on that evening, i realised it was yvonne, which was particularly relevant to me because about six weeks prior to that, yvonne had been at my housewarming party. when something like that happens, particularly when it happens to a close friend, you realise that you're not invincible and, in an instant, your life can end, simply by doing the job you've been called on to do. it had a profound effect on me and eventually resulted in me having to part company with the police. the retired officers are about to visit the met police museum at new scotland yard. they're going to seejohn's original police hat from 1984. morning, john. morning. nice to meet you. heard an awful lot about you.
you've done some great work for yvonne, so... i've actually got your helmet in here. you haven't seen it for a few years, i think. it's been a long time. it's very important in the museum. takes pride of place in the section — officers killed in the line of duty — right next to yvonne's. it's been so long since i've seen it. the last time i saw it, you know, i put it down in st james square, next to yvonne, who was dying and, to see that, brings it all back again. brings tears to my eyes. it really does. we've travelled down to wiltshire to yvonne's home town and this is st leonard's church where, 35 years ago, yvonne was laid to rest. just over there to the right of the church, just behind that hedge over there. such a tragedy. 25. you've not lived, have you? you've got your life ahead of you. that's right. 25.
i was 29. i was there to look after her. i failed in that respect. you haven't failed. i haven't been here for many years but, you know, we've come today to pay our respects. the promise i made to her i've kept and we've done it. we've all had our part to play and i think we've done very well to get this far. well done, mate. thanks. we'll never forget you, my dear. you will get justice. i'll make sure of that, if no—one else does. and it will be worth it. yeah. how have you not ever lost hope? the only thing — you can never give up. i said to yvonne,
i'd find her killer. i said that to her in an open coffin before she was buried. i'm going to say to her again. you never give up hope. the stained glass window created in yvonne's honour shines across the church, reminding her home town and the country of her sacrifice. john has never lost faith that he will bring yvonne's killer tojustice and it's that unwavering faith that could, after all this time, finally lay yvonne to rest. john is here. good morning. you are emotional watching that, weren't you? yes, emotional watching that, weren't you ? yes, rather. emotional watching that, weren't you? yes, rather. yes. what was it like getting together with those former officers? clive, i had never met before, i didn't realise he was the person who went and got the heart and the hat was very symbolic,
as was mentioned in the report when as was mentioned in the report when a police officer is killed in the line of duty one of the first things is the heart goes with them on the coffin. i know it meant a lot to me and to yvonne is family. we have a statement from mr mabrouk. he has previously been interviewed since the commencement what do you say to that? that is the sort of response i would expect from
him and his lawyers, proceedings have been issued, he has acknowledged the claim, no matter where he is in the world, that claim will go ahead, regardless of where and what he does. why are you so determined to keep going, to find out who killed yvonne fletcher? yvonne was only 25, 26 years old when she was shot and killed, i told her as she lay dying that i would find out who did it and that's a promise i will keep to this day and thatis promise i will keep to this day and that is why i carry on. those were the last words she heard. you have said before i think, that you felt guilty that it wasn't you that died that day. why did you say that? on that day. why did you say that? on that morning of the demonstration we changed places to three times, you know, if we'd done it once more then it could have been me. if it had have been me yvonne would be sitting here now, doing exactly the same as iam doing. here now, doing exactly the same as i am doing. what do you think she
would say if she knew? she would say, go for it, you can get him, i will get him. do you think you will find out who did it? there is no doubt about it at all, we will get justice for yvonne and we will find out who did it, yes. thank you so much for coming on the programme, we appreciate it. i want to read a couple of messages that you have sent in. you been watching the programme. about the social care crisis. 0ne viewer it says i watch a programme every day, i love the u ntold programme every day, i love the untold stories, i'm 34 years old. diagnosed with motor neurone disease for the past year, living in a council house for the past five yea rs. council house for the past five years. i can't walk, dress myself, my wife is helping but i can't use my wife is helping but i can't use my toilet at home because my flat is on the second floor and it seems no one cares. how much i am struggling in my life. and steve says this, we we re in my life. and steve says this, we were turned down for nhs continuing
health care for my disabled brother. he is deaf, blind, registered blind, profoundly deaf, has epilepsy, and eye disease, autism, learning disabilities, complex multiple disabilities, complex multiple disabilities and health conditions. we were turned down on the grounds he was not disabled enough. after four successive residential care home placements failed because they couldn't cope with him, i now look after him and my mum ‘s home having abandoned my own house and job in order to do so. my mum is 90 and has her own health and care needs. i am so sorry to hear the stories. but we will continue to shine a light on this throughout the election campaign and beyond. the first cannabis—based drugs have been approved for use on the nhs in england. the two drugs are epidyolex, which will be used for treating two rare forms of childhood epilepsy, and sativex, which will be used
to treat ms patients suffering from muscle stiffness. but for some, this announcement doesn't go far enough. that's because epidyolex does not contain thc the main pscychoactive chemical in cannabis, which some epileptics believe is crucial for their treatment. sativex — which does contain thc — will not be prescribed to treat chronic pain, another common symptom of ms. let's speak to matt hughes, his two year old son charlie has severe epilepsy and is currently taking two cannabis based medicines which contain thc. the drugs are legal, and matt says that they are very effective, but because they aren't available on the nhs, the family pays for them privately at a cost of around £1500 a month. good morning, how are you? thanks for coming on the programme. tell us about your little boy. and the epilepsy that he has and how many seizures he can end up having.
charlie suffers with a rare form of epilepsy, called infantile spasms, at its worst he can suffer up to around 120 seizures every day. how are you coping with that? just a shock to the system to both me and my wife, turned the world upside down. seeing it and it's my wife, turned the world upside down. seeing it and its constant, it's just constant, constant seizures, if it's not, with the pharmaceutical drugs and everything he was on, he was just like a zombie, laying there. we didn't know charlie, we didn't know who he was. we were just looking after this prayer, little baby who was co nsta ntly prayer, little baby who was constantly seizing. when he's not seizing is just asleep. constantly seizing. when he's not seizing isjust asleep. yes, it wasn't great. you started treating him with cannabis —based medicines, two of them, that is improve things quite a lot. we had an eeg three weeks ago, he's been on these medicines for five months.
weeks ago, he's been on these medicines forfive months. and the eeg shows a significant reduction in epileptic activity, clinical evidence. his seizures have dropped from 120 everyday down to on a really bad day 20, on average 5—10. he's had days he's been completely seizure—free. it's made a significant impact on him, his development has now progressed and he's now at preschool, we now get to see our little boy, so happy and giggling and it's just brilliant, see our little boy, so happy and giggling and it'sjust brilliant, a brilliant little lad. and our lives, it's made a massive difference. these drugs are called and you pay for these privately? why? simply not available on the nhs, the guidelines say because of the thc and what they deem a risk to the developing brain of that is no clinical evidence on that, they don't deem it as effective, they are saying there is no evidence. but we
are stuck in a deadlock. nicer asking —— asking for random controlled trials, they can't go under those trials so until nice agree to that, there is never going to be trials. i understand, the news today that these other drugs are going to be available on the nhs in england, that's not like it's a step forward to these being it's not, the guidelines don't go far enough. we've already been turned down for one of the drugs twice under the grounds that charlie doesn't come under the syndromes because he has his own particular syndrome and the funding, when we had the evidence that his eeg was significantly improved. and that stands for what? i'm not entirely sure. but it's the readout the brainwaves. both his nhs clinician said if they could they would describe it because
they've seen such a dramatic change in him. i wrote to the trust and they said we can't because, i wrote to the trust and they came back and said regardless of what's been said in parliament and regardless of clinical evidence, they are not funded or commissioned for even epidyolex are extract cannabis oils so we are stuck, we are going around in circles, basically. nice saying we wa nt in circles, basically. nice saying we want evidence, the pharmaceutical companies no full extract cannabis oils can go under rct s so we are stuck, going around in circles. £1500 a month. could you get it cheaper abroad? we could, the supplier who supplies are all, initially we were paying £488 in the uk every bottle, the bottles last us for days because the dose has increased, if we, we have been to holland and we brought back three months worth which was a
significant, we saved ourselves, something like £7,000 but we use a uk importer who is doing it at cost price, adding a little bit some so we pay £180 every bottle, it's a little bit cheaper. yes, it helps. brio allowed back in the country with them, with three months?” walked without declaring it. i am breaking the law by doing that but we will do it. you will do it, of course you will, you will do it because going from 120 seizures a day to ten or 15 and sometimes note seizures is a no—brainerfor you and your little boy. he's got his quality of life back, there are children who have used epidyolex and been prescribed it and sometimes they have had tolerance and the seizures have started coming back and it hasn't been that effective and it hasn't been that effective and they've moved across to exactly the same product and they've seen a remarkable difference. until nice realises this, we are banging our head against a wall and they need to
look at worldwide evidence, we are not doing this on a whim, there's tonnes of evidence out there, it's being ignored. if someone from nice we re being ignored. if someone from nice were watching now, what directly would you say to them?” were watching now, what directly would you say to them? i would say they need to be looking at worldwide evidence, they need to be talking to experts in canada, holland, all over the world, israel, they've got tonnes of evidence, canada has 10 million points of observational data from a clinic. so there is overwhelming evidence this is a safe product, it works, and that we should be prescribing it here in the uk. it's 2019, you know. we are so far behind other countries in the world. it's time we, they change the guidelines. they go prescribing. thank you, thank you for coming in the programme.
the country will fall silent shortly, at exactly eleven o'clock, for a two minute silence to commemorate the dead of war. it marks the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month — the time in 1918 when the guns finally fell silent along the western front, and an armistice was declared. we'll leave you with these images of the national memorial arboretum in staffordshire. help us to lift our eyes above the torment of this broken world, and grant us the grace to pray for those who wish us harm, as we honour the past, may we put our faith who wish us harm, as we honour the past, may we put ourfaith in who wish us harm, as we honour the past, may we put our faith in your future. you are the source of life and hope, now and forever. they shall grow not old, as we that are they shall grow not old, as we that a re left they shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old. age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn. at the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them.