tv Charlie Rose Bloomberg December 7, 2013 8:00pm-9:01pm EST
>> he was born july 18, 1918. his mother gave him a name meaning "troublemaker," but later a school teacher in nelson. he moved to johannesburg at 23. he became one of the nation's first black lawyers and joined the opposition african national congress in the early 1940's, devoting himself to peacefully ending apartheid. then in 1960, peaceful black demonstrators were killed by white south african police in the infamous massacre. mandela came to believe then that the only recourse was violence. >> it is futile for us to continue talking peace and nonviolence against a government whose reply is only savage attacks on an unarmed and defenseless people. >> he was arrested and sentenced
to life for sabotage and conspiracy. he served most of his life on robben island, the alcatraz of south africa. a fellow prisoner said mandela never let his spirit die. >> he accepted that he may not live to see the victory. but he did not doubt that the freedom struggle would triumph. >> mandela was imprisoned for 27 years. on february 11, 1990, at the age of 71, he walked free. cbs news correspondent bob simon covered his release. >> the mandela limousine was a beat up toyota. >> archbishop desmond tutu says prison made the man. >> he was a fairly robust and aggressive young militant who
became a generous, understanding person. >> i cherish the idea of a south africa where all south africans are equal. >> in 1993, mandela and the south african president who freed him, f.w. de klerk, shared the nobel peace prize. a year after, mandela became south africa's president. >> bread, water, for all. let freedom ring. i thank you. [applause] >> mandela chose to serve only one term. in the end he came to personify the struggle, a political prisoner who became president and save case south african
nation. >> he could have easily led our country down the road of retribution and revenge, and we would have been up a creek. >> maya angelou new nelson mandela since 1960. >> nelson mandela represents the best any of us could hope for. the world is better for having known him. >> we begin with bono. >> i have been working for nelson mandela pretty much my whole life. since i was 18, u2 did the first anti-apartheid gig. the anti-apartheid movement was really big in dublin.
i, his instruction to be that great generation, he made that incredible speech at trafalgar square where he said, the fight against extreme poverty is not the task of charity. poverty, like apartheid, is not natural. it is man-made. you know, you must be the generation that takes it on. that has been my instruction book. and i slowly got to know him over the years and received his guidance and his wisdom over the years, and even those last moments, even to go meet his maker. he will decide.
the man who would stand up an entire day in a courtroom to protest over there being no african blacks in the room. he wanted everyone to see that a man could stand up, not have to sit down. a genius of the high ground. i am not sure if people understand that he had an operation on his tear ducts because when he worked on robben island in the salt mines, the salt burned out his tear ducts. this man, this figure who will be remembered not just in south africa, not just in africa, but china, asia, everywhere, the man who could move so many people to
tears himself could not cry. i don't know why that really sticks with me, but, defiance and humor. wicked sense of humor. " what would you want to speak to an old man like me for?" i have been involved in probably, i have been involved with this idea called rock 'n roll. the great intention is to use music people and fashion people to raise money for his charity and children's charities. a great friend, naomi campbell, was organizing it, but it had gone horribly wrong in barcelona. there was an arena that fits
20,000 people and about 4000 people had turned up. they didn't understand. there was some confusion. a lot of people bailed from the project. the great man arrives, all my goodness, there is nobody there for him to make his speech. maybe they will be here by 8:00. we will wait. still, there was hardly anybody there. he has to leave -- wait, wait until it 8:30. 9:00, sure enough there are a few more spaniards. it is not the fault of spain. there was confusion. so we walked out, and there was this huge hangar of a place, empty. he goes, it is a great thing to have high expectations, and i had high expectations of coming to barcelona. we are staring at the ground.
he looks at me and goes, you have more than exceeded my expectations, that you should leave your houses, leave your lives and come and see an old man and help him with his work. it is more than i could ever -- and i am looking at this seating of 5000. low expectations. i guess that is the way he saw the world. he was being real. he was being grateful. 10,000 people there, that was 10,000 people he was not expecting. >> it seems to me that if there was not a word for dignity nelson mandela would have to find it. >> you know, his name, his birth
name means "troublemaker." they gave it to him because he broke a tree. he was a troublemaker. mischief. i think his partners are the same. there is mischief in his eyes. they are refusing to be saints. a defining moment of all our lives was nelson mandela's long walk to freedom. he taught us in his demeanor and in his poetry how to see our captors. and we all have them. it could be your boss, whatever. whoever it is.
i heard a real insight about the long walk to freedom. i don't know if you know this. he was going to nationalize the mines, the diamonds, so the south african people would have those diamonds, they would own them, not these companies. the pragmatist said -- there is a little problem. what is the problem? there is a lot more of them in the ground than we are letting on. what are you saying? diamonds are tightly controlled because we want to keep their value high, and it is a mysterious thing, these companies know how to do it and we probably would not be very good at it. if people discovered it, then we have valueless pieces of glass.
>> supply and demand. >> like that he went, ok. i guess that is why i so admire him, admired him, the pragmatic thing. no piety. absence of piety. >> and morgan freeman, who played him in the movie "invictus." >> when he first mentioned you should play him, were you in his presence? >> i was not. i was in south africa at the time. >> when did you first meet him? >> i met him after, right after he had left the presidency. the producer arranged it. he did not make this one. he had the rights. so he was, of course,
orchestrating all my meetings with madiba. >> madiba is what mandela is called by his people. >> everyone in south africa calls him that, and everyone who knows him well calls him that. he organized a meeting. i told madiba, i need to see you as often as i can, to get close and hold your hand. he said, of course. over the years i saw him all around the world, and we would sit and talk, or i would just watch him and learn. >> what did you see? >> the basic thing that to me, in order to play a living human being, i think, is what goes on inside. how much energy is needed to be that person?
and with mandela it is a very low-energy ebb. he's very quiet. inside, he is quiet. i learned that. he is commanding. he has a most commanding presence without being lordly. he doesn't walk into a room as nelson mandela. he walks into a room as madiba, as nelson. he doesn't take the room. the room gives itself. when he first got into robben island and they issued short pants to everyone except the one indian among them, he rejected his long pants.
madiba said, no, put them on. we will all have long pants. he said to himself, they're going to call me mister. how did he do that? he hears the guard's child is sick. he says, how is your baby, is he all right? things like that. he doesn't feel like the big success we all hold him up as. he thinks of himself personally, deep inside, because of his family life. >> south africa became his family. >> yeah. so his obligations to his village, to winnie, his son,
that weighs on him today. and it infuses his being with a sadness. >> william ernest henley. >> that poem was his favorite. as he explains, when he lost courage, when he felt like just giving up, to lie down and not get up again, he would recite it and it would give him what he needed to keep going. >> can you recite it? if you can't, here are some words. >> out of the night that covers me, black from pole to pole. i learned it when i was in
school. i thank whatever gods there may be for my unconquerable soul. in the fell clutch of circumstance i have not winced or cried aloud. under the bludgeonings of chance, my head is bloody, but unbowed. beyond this place of wrath and tears looms but the shadow of the shade, and yet the menace of the years finds and shall find me unafraid. it matters not how strait the gate, how charged with punishments the scroll, i am the master of my fate, i am the captain of my soul. >> this is a magical moment in the history of this show to hear you do that. thank you. he had it and he memorized it, and it was his anchor when the winds were at their worst.
>> he wrote this poem out and gave it, and i think it served the purpose it needed to serve. when the team visited robben island, this poem played in francois's head. i think he knew then, not only did they have to win, but they would. >> kurt campbell, former state department official. you got your phd at oxford and you had an opportunity to know people that knew mandela. tell me about them, and tell me about the man you learned about and then knew. >> first of all, it is great to be on this show. the world mourns. a million years ago, i was a student in oxford and i did my thesis on radical politics in
south africa and ended up meeting almost every one of nelson mandela's compatriots who worked with him in the struggle to make a multi-racial south africa in the 1960's, before he was arrested. the interesting thing, even years later you meet these guys, they all live modest lives in angola, the outskirts of london the united states. they talk about their experiences. when the time came to talk about mandela, it was as if their gaze settled on something in the distance. everyone, despite their ideology, talk about him with reverence. they rarely talked about his policies. they talked about his character as a person, and how dominant a physical presence he was. people forget, he loved sports, he loved boxing, he used to practice boxing in his jail cell. he loved to follow the races.
fascinated by all global sports. follow them closely. wanted the guards to update him on various sporting events. the cricketer tours that would come from great britain. it was a human touch during periods of unbelievable, stark hopelessness that kept these men alive for decades. it is easy to forget that now that he is a former president, but keeping hope alive when there was no hope is just such a remarkable thing. hopefully something that can animate our world going forward. >> you said he had these huge hands. >> when i first met him -- i spent a lot of time in southern africa. the first thing you realize about him is he was part of a noble family from that part of south africa. when you first see him, he is
much taller than the average south african. well over six feet tall. when he first got out of prison, despite the heavy labor and the hard times, he was ramrod straight. when you saw him, it almost took you a back that, if you focused on him, he was unusually fit and his hands were thick. i was with the new australian prime minister, tony abbott, who himself was a former boxer at oxford. he had a look in his hands, he could get up at any minute and hit you with an upper cut. >> you met a lot of leaders. he had what larger than most? >> i have to say, it is interesting. connecting a little bit with asia, one of my responsibilities when i was in the state department was i was the person that interacted with, when she was under house arrest, with aung san suu kyi. what was interesting about her,
at one moment she could be extraordinarily vulnerable, he would be drawn to her, but in the next moment she could be tough when it was necessary. i found the exact same thing with president mandela. he was deeply human, extremely compassionate, very empathetic for people. his family, people around him, cared how people felt. very unusual in politics, as we know. at the next moment, when you had to make the tough decision, he would make it. >> i have often found among leaders i have interviewed over the years, if they were a dreamer, if, in fact they were men or women who had a sense of enormous compassion, there was at the heart of them, at the
core, a capacity to be as tough and secondly as analytical as anybody you ever met. >> i like that. that is exactly what i saw in him. what was also interesting, you look at other leaders, i was always struck when we used to travel with president clinton, he had the common touch, he knew the people that work the elevators, that drove the cars, they cleaned up the rooms after we left. mandela was exactly the same way. he knew that one audience was the person sitting across the table from him or meeting with the queen or whoever, but he also knew that the people behind the scenes that facilitated the events were just as important, and he could be more open and compassionate and engaged with those people than he often was with the leaders that he met. that is a remarkable quality. frankly, i don't believe in any way that that was an act. that is who he was, down to the core.
>> i also found that the leaders i think he represents, obviously for all of us, represents the expression of courage and leadership and all the best qualities that you can imagine in a human being. the capacity to live as he had in prison, and to come out with a certain sense of grace about him, the capacity for reconciliation. also, leaders, it seemed to me, have always had the ability to calculate risk and be willing to have confidence in their own capacity to overcome risk. >> yeah. i agree with that. in a way, when i interacted within the most was right when he came out of prison, getting ready to run. he was aware in a way i have rarely seen political leaders, he knew the tolerances, what the system could manage.
he was as effective speaking to his own supporters about what was going to be necessary to accommodate, to live in the new south africa, as he was to international investors or to whites that were worried about the future. one other thing. the other thing that i would say about him is, and again, you see this with other leaders. just beneath the surface there was a little bit, a little touch of loneliness to him. you could kind of sense. surrounded by a lot of people, but the closest of relationships, that handful of people, he was not with them sometimes. he was imprisoned during a difficult period, a lot of hard changes, some alienation. i think that marked him. so the incredible combination of being essentially optimistic,
how would we focused, but when the cameras were down and he was sitting alone, having a cup of tea or just reflecting, you could sense there was a little bit of sadness to him. >> sadness and a sense of the burden they had to bear as well. >> that is right. >> at this time, we remember stories. a story you already knew, that says something about how stories happen, that he went to london and to buckingham palace to see the queen and they expected him to stay for 30 minutes and he stayed for more than two hours. later, somebody with him, i guess, when he got a call from the queen and took the call and they talked on the phone, the story goes that when he hung up the phone and said, goodbye, your majesty, his friend turned to him and said, what did the queen say? she said, please call me elizabeth. there are only three people in the world who called her elizabeth.
her sister and her husband and nelson mandela. the other story is how he at the time of his inaugural had his jailers sitting there in the audience. you would be familiar with that. >> what was remarkable, and many of the people around him initially were actually uncomfortable and thought this gesture would be misunderstood. but some of the people who imprisoned him, some of the people that on a daily basis kind of subjected him to terrible physical labor for years, were there in the front row. what was astonishing, if you see the exchanges during this period, there was a familiarity and respect that had grown over time between them. in the end, in a sense it was as
if mandela was their jailer, even though he was imprisioned. he was the one who looked after them, and they looked to him for grace, which he delivered in a remarkable way. they were comfortable and honored to be there, and he was respectful of them. it was from those early associations. remember, the guys who came to power with mandela, the armed wing of the african national congress was called the spear of the nation, and these guys were warriors. they had been fighting underground against the apartheid regime, so they were in no mood to go to a situation where they are sitting down and breaking bread with the former enemy. think of how hard it is here in the united states. mandela insisted that these people be treated with respect.
he kept on members of the previous administration. he insisted the military integrate, but integrate in a way that white military officers remained in power. it was remarkable. to tell you the truth, his aides were initially profoundly uncomfortable and worried he was on the wrong foot as he got started. >> that was the story that came out of "invictus," the movie made with morgan freeman playing nelson mandela. >> the reason that was so wonderful, rugby until that point was considered a white sport in south africa. african south africans did not play rugby very much. those who did were looked on a little bit with contempt. he championed that team. he met with the captain. he inspired him, i think personally. when i think of a scene that has
inspired me a movie perhaps more than any other, i really encourage people to look at it. look at the sit-down between the rugby captain and morgan freeman. the subtle dance that they initially engage each other in around leadership, how to motivate a group of people in an impossible set of circumstances. it is the best example of leadership i have ever seen in a movie. i have to say, what is fascinating about him is that there was a period in his life where he did study and think deeply about marxism. there was a period where the resistance movement in southern africa was about the forces of history and deeply animated by support from the outside. the great irony is that in the
theology, early theology of the resistance movement, the idea was that the great forces of history, machine and agrarian development, really ruled out the role of the individual. how ironic it is that probably the most influential individual of the last 50 years came out of that system, and it was nelson mandela. >> here is an excerpt from a 1993 conversation with nelson mandela, which we will show in its entirety tomorrow night. >> help us understand what it was like for you, and how does a man maintain his strength, his belief, his integrity on an island or you have been sentenced to life in prison? >> there is nothing as inspiring as to know that the ideas for which you have sacrificed will
triumph in the end. one of the things we were constantly aware of throughout, 24 hours a day, was the fact that the ideas of liberation were much alive. that our people inside the country were fighting back. that the international community, your respective of the government in power, liberal or conservative, fully supported our struggle. that was a source of tremendous inspiration. it helps the morale of all of us. and therefore, we were very
the spanish language network univision. he is a strong supporter of the democratic party and one of its largest individual donors. this weekend, the brookings institution will hold its annual saban forum in washington. the israeli-palestinian peace process, nuclear negotiations with iran, and other subjects will be at the top of the agenda. i am pleased to have haim saban at the table. >> thank you. >> that me talk about israel. it is said that prime minister netanyahu in his fierce opposition to this interim agreement between iran and the united states is not doing a great service to the united
states and the effort to find some possibility of going from an interim agreement to a final agreement. >> the prime minister is doing well to keep the issue of iran at the top of the agenda. they could have been other ways to do it. i am not suggesting that he picked the best way, but that is the way he picked. it is semantics. because the fundamentals are the following. president obama made it very clear, iran will not have nuclear weapons. that is his red line. prime minister netanyahu said, iran will not have nuclear weapons capability. that is his red line. but the difference between those two creates a certain gap.
is that gap fundamental? no, because the bottom line is the same. they have different red lines, but they have the same bottom line. iran will not be a nuclear weapon country. this is what we have to remember, that israel and the united states are completely aligned on that issue. there might be different path to get to that result, and there might be disagreements along the way between friends, but the bottom line, which is what is really important in life, is completely aligned. >> others come to this table and make the following argument. why now? the reason the iranians are talking is because of the sanctions. why not tie long more sanctions so they will not make an interim agreement that will say, ok, we
can't live with the sanctions anymore, what is it you want? and therefore not only stop, freeze, but get them to dismantle the centrifuges? that would be the result if you double up on the sanctions? >> the people who sit across the table from our negotiators are ideologues for the most part. and we are trying to reason with them based on our way of life. it doesn't work. however, with rouhani there, and by the way, we had a ahmadinejad and now a smiling rouhani. i don't know how different they are. this agreement is both a good agreement and a bad agreement. i am not saying it is very good or very bad.
it all depends on what happens at the end of the six months or if they extend it by another six months. if, at the end at six months or extension of six months, there is an agreement that guarantees that iran for at least 10 years is -- whatever sanctions you apply, whatever inspectors you send, is limited in time, but iran for at least 10 years will dismantle its nuclear capabilities, it is a great agreement. if there is not such an agreement, it is a very bad agreement. nobody knows. should we try? absolutely. we should absolutely try. and i think the president did the right thing by reaching out and trying to make a deal. and i don't think that additional sanctions -- all those people that talk about
additional sanctions are the same people who said sanctions don't work. these are the same people. so make up your mind. do they work, or don't they work? >> what does the prime minister believe? you know the mind of the prime minister. you know him, and you know people who are opponents of his. what do they think will come out of this? are they, in the end, prepared to give it a chance? >> i can't speak for the prime minister. i don't know what he thinks. >> you know people who know what he thinks. >> i spent quality time with the prime minister. i can tell you what he said to me, which is what he also said in public. he didn't go beyond it. i asked him point-blank, do you really have the military capability to take out the iran nuclear facilities? he said, i will tell you what i say all the time -- how i get there is for me to know.
and for you to guess. the bottom line is, iran is not going to be nuclear. that is what he says. >> there are many people who believe that they do not have the possibility to do anything other than to delay for six months or a year. that is the possibility, and that is the military potential they have. >> let me tell you something about the idf. in 1948, 500,000 -- we are sitting here with one of the most advanced militaries in the world, after seven wars which they won every single one of them. i don't know what they have or don't have. i know that the israeli people and jewish people around the world can rely on the idf. >> there are now israeli-
palestinian negotiations taking place. i know what the issues are. you have to do with territory, the right of return, jerusalem, borders, and in some case with the jordan river. but the essential question is security, and you just laid out the most important thing in israel's security. what the israeli defense force has become. when will israel feel secure enough so that it can make a kind of agreement so that it would ensure a two-state solution? many are arguing now that that idea is slipping away. because of the demographics, and other factors. >> it is a very, dated issue. when you ask me when will israel feel secure, a statement by golda mehr comes to mind when
she said, we will forgive you for killing our children. we will never forgive you for forcing us to kill yours. what i'm trying to say, israel is reaching out for peace. not because there is a big love between the arabs and the jews, but because it is in israel's interest. even hawks like prime minister netanyahu understand that. against many in his own party he said, two states for two people. now, the devil is in the details, but in the name of the government of israel benjamin netanyahu made that statement. >> the present secretary of state, the present president, the former president bill clinton, former secretary of state hillary clinton, and most
americans in the leadership, most believe that settlements, increasing settlements are not in the interest of finding an agreement between israelis and palestinians. where do you come down on that, and where do you come down on sharing jerusalem as a capital? >> you are asking my personal opinion? >> your personal opinion. >> my right-wing hawkish friends are going to be very mad. i am going to tell you that jerusalem is already divided. jews don't go to the arab sections or very rarely go. when they go, they get stones thrown at them. so i believe that the clinton parameters are the right parameters. 1967 borders, territory swaps.
>> the same equivalency. >> exactly. 1967 borders with territory swaps, dividing jerusalem and finding some arrangement so that jews can go to the holiest place in the jewish religion. jews are not allowed to go to the temple mount because the mosque is there. that is outrageous. places of worship should be open to everybody who wants to worship. but israel does not allow jews to go out of respect for the muslims. tell me another country that behaves like that. >> your argument is more with the government of israel than with the palestinians? >> not true. >> it is true. you are prepared if palestinians would accept the deal president clinton offers. the government of israel would not accept the offer president clinton offered.
when he offered it, yasir arafat turned it down. some say that later he regretted that. >> you know who told him not to accept it? even though he changed his mind since? the head of the palestinians told arafat not to accept it. >> you are arguing for a deal -- >> do you know that for a fact? >> we can find out by asking, would they accept the 67 deal offered by president clinton at camp david? why don't we do that? >> for the israelis, we will do that at the forum with pleasure.
for the israelis, for the majority of israelis, of course there are right-wing hawks that don't agree -- >> when you say right-wing hawks, do you mean prime minister netanyahu? >> no. >> how would you characterize him? >> i think he was a right-wing hawk. look, i saw a tape of benjamin netanyahu may be 25, 30 years old. he says, there is no need for a palestinian state. jordan is a palestinian state. he has come a long way. give him some credit. he has come a long way. so for the israelis, the majority of israelis, it is all about three things. security, security, and security. >> exactly. if you look at the israeli prime
minister rabin, he went to oslo, signed an agreement, shook hands with yasser arafat. because he believed israel was strong enough to take care of itself. he began to believe it was in israel's interest to have an agreement with the palestinians, as hard as a was for him to accept that and shake hands. >> very hard for him. >> when they were standing in front of the white house, he turned to shimon peres, and said, you go shake his hand. >> but he believed in the strength of the israeli defense force. everybody understands the security interest is understandable and significant. in the middle east, you are in the middle of a number of
countries that are hostile or a number of organized groups like hezbollah and hamas, and iran. >> two factors have changed since 1995. number one, rockets. they didn't use rockets in those days. and if i address that for a second, the number one threat in the event of a pullout is over the ridge where they ca shoot rockets at the airport. all they need to do issued two rockets a day into the airport. israel comes to a screeching halt, and the second thing that has changed is terrorism now has
a different phase than it did then. then, it was stones. now they blow up school buses. that is what they do. these two facts, if they exist in 1995, believe me, rabin's position would have been -- rabin is the one who said not to give back the jordan valley. >> i am not sure netanyahu wants to give back the jordan valley either. he said, you don't give back the jordan valley. >> these conversations, like you and i are having, have been had in the middle east and in washington and in other capitals. the question is, do you believe the israelis have confidence in president obama? >> very good question. can we separate the people from
the various factions of the government? i think that when the moment of truth comes, president obama has the ability to build confidence within israel. >> when you say that, that suggests it is not there now. >> 77% of israelis at the moment based on the latest polls think that this nuclear deal that was done with iran was a terrible deal and does not include -- >> that is one thing. therefore, do they believe that they can't depend on the united states? >> no leader in his right mind would ever outsource the security and the existential fact to another country, no matter how close.
>> this week on "political capital," former secretary of state madeleine albright talks about nelson mandela and north korea. the latest on the widget negotiations and the november jobs report. margaret carlson and ramesh ponnuru debate obamacare's revival. we begin the program with the former secretary of state, dr. madeleine albright. madame secretary. >> good to be with you. >> you paid tribute to the noble statesmen, nelson mandela.