tv Charlie Rose Bloomberg April 10, 2014 10:00pm-11:01pm EDT
she wrote about this experience in her new book. it is called "the wrong enemy: america in afghanistan, 2001-2014." i'm very pleased to have her at the table. welcome. >> congratulations. much to talk about. what is your assessment of the election? praising it once and for the other to the afghans who went to the polls. >> it was very exciting. lots of debate. talking about voting because who didn't vote for because they either did not like karzai or they were distressed because of the state of the country. in kandahar, whole lines of people. last time it was an empty city, no one went out. there are some great movements there and it's very exciting. >> you contributed to what?
>> 12 years of the karzai era is over. they all knew it was something to think about. they're very worried about what happens beyond 2014, the withdrawal of western troop. they really want to have someone -- >> someone that will stop the taliban. >> they talk to me inside the palace about how concerned they were that karzai had not had a security agreement with the states. they want someone to help tackle which they see as the real culprit. >> and so do you. we will get to that in a moment. tell me about the afghan people. >> why did i stay so long? it is because of the afghan
people. they are incredibly warm and tough. they are amazingly hospitable. they are almost otherworldly in that they have had an ancient civilization still intact, traditions still intact. they have a very tribal system, a very religious system. they're very conservative muslims. i think they still have values that often in the west we have forgotten. they go to funerals, weddings. they visit you when you are sick or when you come in to all of those personal things that matter. that is wonderfully impressive when you are a reporter traveling through or even just to visit for a few days. they are amazingly warm. it draws you into the culture
and their whole tradition. >> explain hamed karzai to me. >> he's an amazing character. he's had a rough ride. we will probably reflect a good holbrook used to say this. >> he did not get along with him. >> he recognized his clever political ability to maneuver, to debate, to get what he wanted. that can be frustrating. for a long time, the bush administration found that he was a yes man. he was easily led. he went along with the entire western project. then i think he got very disillusioned with the west and americans in particular. there was also the dense of
confronting karzai about what was going on. he became disillusioned. he went on the same thing. he thinks america is against him, trying to stop his efforts to make peace with the taliban a lot of that is question and it has become a personal vendetta against the west. he feels betrayed, badly used. he cannot get over that. his ability to move through and survive is amazing. he's the longest standing leader of afghanistan after the king. for a long time, he stayed on the hell man survived while not having a knife in the back. a lot of former leaders --
>> america believes still strongly that he is corrupt. >> he's not a bad man. he's one of the most likable. >> i've interviewed him as well. his attitude to corruption is "don't make enemies." that's a method of survival in afghanistan. he would rather look the other way when confronted with something, including his own brother. then there is a sort of looseness about what is corruption. that is a failure. he was given all of these suitcases of cash but he just took it for granted. he loves to show largess and pass it on. he runs his own presidential palace.
it is not a lack of morality. he just has a looser view of what is corruption than we do, perhaps. i think that is a failing but i don't think he's a bad man. i think he just lets corruption happen. >> there is the question of where troops will remain and why he refused to reach an agreement with other presidential candidates who have said they want to and even the iraqis have advised that they want to. >> he saw that as a plan. someone put them up to it. he's become very suspicious. >> of? >> the west. he saw himself being scapegoated.
the obama administration started to blame him. >> putting truth in the fact that the obama administration -- >> it was easier. i think the falling out, i think a lot of the leaks were given out far too freely. he had a very close relationship. i think he understood. he's afghan as well. i think he understood his failings but understood and admired his bravery, his desire
to serve his country. he generally doesn't want better for his country. he often does not know how to do it. i think he has had more flak than he deserves. as we move onto another president we will probably see people having a second look at karzai. >> who do you think the new president will be? >> i think it will go to a second round. i think he will have the edge. if the pashtuns come out, which is problematic, the security is there. if they come out, they will stick to the tribe. >> what if massoud had lived? >> i think that almost every week, every day.
with great sadness, i think you would have built an army and a police force much quicker. it was one of the lessons he learned when they were in power in the 1990's which was a terribly difficult time in the afghan civil war and all of the factions fighting each other. he tried to hold things together in kabul. he said that they police academy money was in the resistance against the taliban down. he would have known immediately to forge a strong police force. that is one of the major failings in the early years after the taliban down felt. there were no police. >> i could be wrong about this and you know much better. i always have some reason to
believe that general mcchrystal had a good working relationship with him. >> you are right. he did. he asked president obama to keep him on even when he was getting fired. mcchrystal made a personal visit back at the invitation of karzai. i think he worked very hard at trying to mend that. he did not manage to get karzai to buy into the surge. he went into did travel down but he still never really supported the surge that i also think was a shame because i think it was needed and he's doing the right thing and he just could not quite take that step. >> pakistan. do you think they are central to
this? >> they feel they have to dominate afghanistan for its own security. >> and worries about india. >> the pakistani military run things and intelligence services are part of the military. since independence, they have had more time under a military government than under a civilian. they have had these military dictatorships and the military just believes that this is the way to go. they have success against the russians and they swore off the soviet union. they just continued and they figured it was the way to do it. they then continued and they had their own proxy to go into kashmir.
and now this is the only thing i think they know. they are in ensuring a state in afghanistan and they will continue doing it until someone stops them. >> could the united states have stopped them? >> they could have done a lot more to help stop them. to bolster the civilians and to tell the people the truth, you have to tell the pakistani people what's going on because most do not know what they are doing. >> most of the front page was white. they did not want to print it.
the pressure on journalists in the editors in pakistan is very strong to not cross certain lines. you don't talk about support for the taliban, sponsorship of terrorism. you don't talk about nuclear issues which is huge. i feel that it must be open to the people. then i feel the civilian government, if it helps to be strong, will eventually seize back security policy and foreign policy. at the moment it's all in the hands of the military. they are set on a ruinous course. in her last campaign she said she wanted to. she was actually hoodwinked and could not control things. at the end, i talked to her quite a lot in her last campaign
and she certainly knew what needed to be done and was determined to do it. >> you believe who killed her? >> he certainly knew about it. he knew there was a plan to kill her. it was talked about at a quarter commander meeting which he chaired. >> should we kill her or how? >> they have a plan to kill her and let's do nothing. >> reduce our own security for her? >> they just never gave her security. that comes out of the u.n. report that she was never given the proper security that other former prime ministers were given. the point is that they knew there was a plot and they did nothing to stop it and they talked about it at the security meeting.
i blame them all. this is where you see that pakistan is really playing with the devil because they have relations with al qaeda. they are listening, watching, meeting. then they are using them sometimes to do their dirty work and then may cannot control. >> today believe they truly know where omar is? >> absolutely. he is their man. >> do the americans know where he is? >> i doubt it. probably not. i'm sure they pick up bits and pieces like we do. you cannot live and work in the country for 12 years and not get these constant feeds out that he was cited here or there.
i even talked to a bodyguard of one of his top commanders. he did not go inside but he knew it was his house and then he returned with the commander. you get the stories. you cannot work and live there without hearing this. often you don't print them because you come across them and it is just this and that. after living for 12 years, you just have to -- >> before we talk about osama bin laden and how they protected him, in your judgment, here is richard holbrooke talking about you. i thought you might like to see this. >> the people who join the taliban down because of it dealing that they've been corrupted or abused by the government, the 25% but join because of perceived injustice, that is our mission, to help the
afghan government eliminate those issues that are so famous and well covered by journalists, brilliant journalists including john burns, dexter filkins, carlotta gall. their coverage has been terrific. the other 70%, the floating people who pick up guns and a culture where guns are very popular, it's a long-standing historical tradition, that you have to deal with by a much better public information program. >> he mentioned dexter. what pakistan knew about bin laden from may 2 2011. now that he's dead, the most intriguing question -- did any officials help hide them. the fact that he was hiding in an urban area raises obvious questions like who was taking care of him and how.
it is only 35 miles from the capital and home to a military base, military academy, and many retired officials. conspiracy theories abound. the most common is that he was being sheltered by the isi. >> everyone talks about it and everyone believes it. he's just a few hundred yards from the top military academy. i went to the house and you could see the wall of the military academy just there. i go through it in the book. there are so many things but you have to build up the case slowly. there are so many things that point to it. every time the head of the army would come to the military academy for the graduation parade every year, the whole town gets checked for security reasons because they do have
their own taliban problem. every street, someone would come and check all the houses. so then you say, ok how come they did not check the house? do they just knock on the door? yet then you find out there is someone working for the isi on every street and then talks to all the servants, usually, who ordered the guards or watchmen who work in the houses and then they find out if there have been any recent comings and goings who lives there, so on. all of these things, you piece it together slowly but you realize they have to have had a watch on something. what happens is that the people watching the street are told that it's a safe house, keep away. they are warned off because it's a special house. it's an intelligence house or it is someone's house. so the police are also taught
that way. they are warned off. then you have to keep looking. eventually, it took me two years but i did keep talking to everyone trying to piece together the former isi chief who actually said that that he believed musharraf had him put there and it was civilian intelligence chiefs that put him there. he then watered down his story under pressure. >> watered down when he told you. >> and what he told the press. he said he was misunderstood. i went back to see him and it was pretty clear that he still believed what he said. >> there was a single desk? >> i found someone that i cannot name, i'm afraid. it's extremely dangerous for
him. he is in the intelligence service and he says there is a special desk. one man man did and only the top bosses. he can act without referring anything so he can make his own decisions and his only job is to look after bin laden. that just made sense to me. i could never confirm it and with another source because people don't know about it or don't want to talk about it. i don't even know if the cia ever found out if they confided in them. i don't know if it would be considered treason for a pakistani to admit that to an american. i really believe it because it makes sense especially when you look at the house he hid in. he did not try to escape. protection was always the
umbrella of isi, the intelligence service. they would warn him. >> you can argue that the americans knew that someone would warn him and that's why they did not tell the pakistanis. >> a senior official said it was exactly that. they noticed there was no back door. it made them think as they were surveilling the house that he was relying on being tipped off. that was one reason they did not tell pakistan about the positions of the house. when you put all that together, i just think it fits. >> recently, mike morel was here. you know him well. we talked about torture. he said an interesting thing.
khalid sheikh mohammed, he said do not dare mention the courier. >> he said that? that's interesting. i heard he was reticent about that. i did not really see actually said those words. that is how they put two in two together. >> one person said one thing and in between -- >> we tried to trace the courier.
i knew i would get stopped trying to go up to the mountain. the courier's father left the mountains and moved to kuwait. he did find people who knew the family that he immediately got into trouble with cisi. he was told to get out of town and stop asking questions. something is very controlled about it all. >> are you worried about nuclear weapons? >> it used a lot of the money they have received since 9/11. it is the fastest growing nuclear arsenal in the world. that's very alarming. on the other hand, i understand the pakistani military is an
impressive organization and many of them are responsible citizens. i just think they have to have civilian oversight because the sponsoring of proxy forces is a ruinous cause. i don't think they are incapable of controlling or managing the nuclear arsenal in a responsible way. >> what is the appeal of the taliban in afghanistan? >> there is not one. people hate them. some young men will join them. they will join on a dare or something to do but people hate them. i saw that in the south last year. >> because of ideology, tactics?
>> they hate them now. it's tactics that have been so tough living with ied's in your backyard every night. in the early years, they formed as a religious movement and they brought security to the country, they were respected in the commanders were elders who had fought with the jihad. now you have a lot of young thugs. they are snatching cell phones off villagers, abusing elders, out-of-control so people hate them more. they are laying ied's in front of everyone's houses. they cannot go out at night. they are operating in a way that the afghans will not tolerate any more.
people are really fed up. i saw this popular uprising against them in the south last year which was a reported the very real. this was the absolute center of controll in kandahar up until last spring. they had elections there the other day. it showed me how exhausted they were there with the taliban and. they help out of money or intimidation. i think if the afghan army can't get stronger, it would just collapse, the support would collapse. >> it was the most important news story of the time.
now the great dread, what happens when they come back but now far more alarming is libya. it reminds me of afghanistan in the 1990's. fighting each other for power, local power. al qaeda is busy and they're doing campaign assassinations, training freedom fighters. these extremist islamist groups are terrifying and they already have a foothold. that will probably take a decade. >> at least the government is still in charge. it is a frenzy of lawlessness. >> these women want to vote. clearly the taliban and did not stop. >> certainly not in the major population centers. the afghans really showed they wanted to vote. >> "the wrong enemy: america in afghanistan, 2001-2014." carlotta gall, what a great picture on the front.
>> kristen wiig stars in a new film, "hateship loveship." she made a name for herself on seven seasons of "saturday night live." she starred in "bridesmaids" that made almost $300 million worldwide. here's a look. thanks hey, buddy. >> i feel so much more relaxed. i'm excited. i feel relaxed. i'm ready. to paaaarty ♪ with the best of friends ♪ and i'm gonna go down to the river ♪ >> wow. it looks like someone is really relaxing now. >> what are you guys talking about up here? >> we are going to a restaurant tonight. >> you do?
the one that you gave him -- he wears that sweatshirt all the time. >> her character is in a relationship with a recovering drug addict and finds something she never expected. here's the trailer for the film. >> there is a lady over there. >> we've been expecting you. >> she's going to work here? >> this is my granddaughter. >> you're the one taking care of the granddaughter? >> i have a headache. >> my dad left this note for you. >> i need your father's address.
>> i can mail that for you. >> i can mail that for you. >> i waited for you to open up. your friend, yohanna perry. >> we will put a fake e-mail address on for your dad and she will have to respond that way. >> how about you say something like you should wear your hair back more often so we can see your pretty face. thinking about you in your nightgown. hold you in my arms. [laughter] >> what are you doing here? >> didn't you get my e-mail? >> i don't have e-mail. i don't know what happened. i'm sorry.
>> where is your mother? >> she died. >> i'm really trying here. i'm really trying. >> i know you don't have many friends. >> hateship, friendship courtship, marriage. >> liza johnson, the director, and kristen wiig. thanks for being here. how did this come about? >> the screenwriter brought the script to me about two years ago
and we worked on it a little bit. as we worked on the main character, johanna, the first person i thought of was kristen. i felt that thematically she would know how to be that character. >> to be really awkward and sad. [laughter] >> that's me. >> i was sent the script and her first movie, the return, i was like i definitely want to work with this director. i really love the script. >> socially inept and is not really in the world that we live in. she is just sort of in her own little world.
she gets sort of pushed into reality. >> did you make the movie you wanted to make? >> i'm told that it really does not always go like that. [laughter] kristen helped me with that because it seems that we really saw the movie the same way. people really want to be honest to alice munro because she is such an important and talented writer. that helped us make a movie of a certain kind. she's very confident that her work speaks for itself.
i would be confident if i were her, too. she's such a beautiful writer and she is so literary that it really -- in the story, the most exquisite moments happen inside the characters minds. it's a very different because you cannot photograph all of the moments in the story. >> you love the idea she put herself at risk for her desire. >> yeah. i like that about it, too. she comes from a world where it does not do her any good to want things she cannot have. >> and you can be hurt. >> that is probably something she did not think about.
she just sort of blindly went into this. maybe she thinks you only love one person in your life. >> does she change or do people change for her? >> she adapts to her surroundings but she stays true. they see that it's a beautiful thing and there is something really exceptional, very silent, just goes with love. >> and has not had an easy life. what is it that she sees in him? >> he liked me.
he will be mine. [laughter] when she sees him she's like, i don't think she looks at men that way probably ever. i think he gives her a little attention and with the note he writes her, just goes for it. he's a great catch. he's a drug addict, just got out of jail, doesn't have a good relationship with his kid. >> responsible for the death of his wife. >> that every girl's checklist. [laughter] >> to me, alice munro is really unsentimental writer. her stories are about how people affect each other but she would
never say that a drug addict will change for you just because you want them to. i like the way that people accommodate themselves to each other but it's not a rescue mission. >> do they expect you are going to be a comedic character? >> yes. can i look in this camera? [laughter] i do want each thing i do to be its own thing. i get it. people know me from comedy. when you see actors like that, you are just waiting for it.
in toronto, people were laughing at certain things that i wanted to turn around and say -- i'm trying to be serious. it's really interesting. i don't know if it would have been a different reaction. >> to me, you also let yourself have a full range and that movie. >> even the scene where i'm kissing the mirror, when we shot that we were all like -- that's so sad. she's kissing herself. when we played it, people were laughing really hard. they know it's sad but it's very interesting to be in a room where you hear that reaction. >> how do you explain the transformation that's happened? >> to me, hailee steinfeld and kristen's character has
different sets of knowledge. she knows how your life is supposed to be. hateship, loveship, friendship, courtship. her life does not go in that order but i feel like she brings something else into sabitha's life in what is happening and not just the set of expectations about how things should be. i feel like they have an impact on each other. >> why did you change the title? >> i was told was too long to fit on the marquee of the cinema. [laughter] >> who told you that? >> some business person. [laughter] >> did you find the experience of doing drama satisfying? >> very much so, yes. this was kind of a good
transition for me because it was not completely a sad sort of -- she was a character. we talked about how she walked, how she did not move her arms really when she did. >> it is also part of dramatic acting. >> you are in a character. >> i'm learning so much. [laughter] >> how did you go about incorporate becoming the character? >> liza and i talked a lot about it. so much of who johanna is is in her mind. she does not have a lot of dialogue.
she's looking out the window, thinking, observing. we tried to find an interesting way to be true to the character from the story and make the transformation she needs to make. >> how was nick nolte? >> he was terrific, such a pro. >> did you meet him before? >> i met him for the first time during casting. we went to his house which was quite spectacular. he grew up in iowa and he came up with all of his prepared actor material with the house he grew up in, that looks like where we shot. we spend a lot of time talking about the background of that character. he brought that all into the shoot.
>> when you first drove to los angeles, what were you thinking? >> i was terrified because i had not told my parents that my car was packed and my cat was in a little carrier next to me. i was in arizona. >> tucson. i went to the university of arizona there. it was a day of thinking about it. >> one day? >> pretty much. it just felt like -- i don't know. it's one of those things where i've learned you cannot lie to yourself in the mirror. if you ask yourself a question, you cannot lie. i looked in the mirror and i was like, what do you want to do? it surprised me. you don't want to be here. >> when were you there? >> i'm so bad at years. >> what year in college were you?
>> i was a junior. and it just sort of happened. my roommate at the time lived in l.a. and i stayed with her. it just kind of happened. then i called my parents. >> and said you were in l.a.? >> i got two very different reactions. >> who was more supportive, mother or father? >> they were both supportive but they showed it in different ways. my father was like, what are you doing? in the most loving way possible. they were both very surprised. i had never talked about acting or done anything like that as a kid. you know when you tell your parents something like that they do tend to look at the numbers. not a lot of people go out there and make it. >> why did you want to act? >> i don't know.
that such a hard question. it was just in me. i took a class at school. i liked it. i don't know, my teacher was just really supportive. >> you worked with groundlings? >> that's a theater improv comedy group in l.a. i had never seen improv before. i was like, i want to do this. i signed up for classes right away. that theatre changed my life. >> how did lorne hear about you? >> a lot of times you just send tapes in. just write "snl new york" and it goes. little things i had done, bits on set, and a lot of stuff from groundlings, characters. >> and you auditioned before
lorne and tina fey?? >> you go to the studio and you go on stage. they are there. you hear they are there. whenever i watch this show i'm always like, what's back there? it's like a black oblivion? >> it goes forever. >> five minutes. show us what you have. i did every character impression, anything i could think of. >> how did you think you did? >> i never leave anything thinking, "i nailed it." [laughter] there's not a lot going on. it's you, the camera. it's very intimidating. then i got the call to come back again and audition.
i was like, what am i going to do? i've done it all. i went back again and i did not hear anything. and then the season started. >> when you do a character, do you try to get the voice first? >> it's all different. sometimes it's the voice. sometimes you overhear someone at the grocery store and you just write it down or someone in your family. >> bill hader. >> let's talk about him. >> let's do. >> is he one of those people when you do the table read on wednesday, you get excited when he's going to do something. you read the character description, "bill walks in as a blah." just to see the way that he can
manipulate his voice and he's just like the nicest guy. he's the best. >> you and bill did amovie together? >> "skeleton twins." >> twins? >> i have brown hair. we play twins. >> what's next for you, liza? >> i'm writing something i'm excited about, a group of teenage girls where something surprising happens to them. i also have a project with michael shannon i'm excited about. >> this was terrific. thanks for coming. thanks. i'm going to walk back here. it's like narnia. i'm going to meet a goat man. >> it's a black hole. ♪
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