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tv   Bloomberg Businessweek Debrief A Conversation With Jamie Dimon  Bloomberg  December 26, 2016 4:00pm-5:01pm EST

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>> i sent him a dimon and detroit michigan. budget emojis $100 million investment in the city. to discuss whether the strategies used here to be replicated elsewhere. wax i think it would be a total waste of time. >> enough you want be part of he gave his take on where president trump can affect real change. >> it is an corporate taxes. although properly. we will be having that in america. coming up in this
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business week debris. a conversation with jamie dimon. recent newsbout first. i am sure the audience is as interested as i am. job were you interested in? did you turn it down? dimon: i love what i do. i said i was always not hope i did secretary of treasury. when i look as recently as september, when i look back at what you saw in the next administration, after the outcome of the election. you said you thought it would be very difficult for wall street guys to get confirmed. landscapek at the that we have. we have several wall street
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figures. some of them you know very well. including gary cohn from goldman sachs. from exxon mobil. what do you think they will bring to the administration? is this a good thing? dimon: i was dead wrong when i said you will not see a wall street person in washington and retention. the republicans are in charge and they have not been antibusiness the way you have seen the democrats largely be antibusiness for years. i think that if you're going to be a president you should have the best people sitting around the table. i think it is a mistake for the american public to possibly be told that if you work for oil companies banks, that automatically makes you back. you want to investigate. i think is a good thing because a lot of these people are very qualified. they're going to want to help the country. they're not going to try to help their former country. these are people with deep knowledge and we hoping to do a great job.
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>> when you look at that shifted terms of wall street. his is a reset moment -- is this a reset moment? >> i think it is a reset moment for how business retreat is. i believe 145 people were in america -- million people work in america. we hold them in very high regard. firemen, sanitation, police, teachers. i thinkwe hold them in very high regard. that business is a huge positive element to society. for years it has been as if they are terrible people. i think it is a good reset. detroit is a perfect example. ,ou can see where civic society not for profiteer, governments, business, working together to improve the lives of american citizens. so yes, i think the reset has the chance to do the same thing. and detroit,t
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around the country, he will have a huge renaissance. >> let's talk about that. you travel around the country and around the world. part of this phenomenon, when you look at this, what is your diagnosis from your travels and experience about what is going on and what is really driving this explosion that we have seen. this economic angst that people feel. their dislocation from society. what you diagnose of that? jamie: it was an anti-immigration per se, there was a fear that america has changed too much. it was an anti-immigrants. it was children, great-grandchildren, immigrants. it wasn't even anti-tray. i think at the core of the matter was frustration and anger because of two things. middle-class incomes have not grown for 15 years. likeyou hear facts
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this. people don't analyze them. in this case, it happens to be true. the unskilled and skill have been growing for a long time. the unskilled have had a hard time of finding a living wage. i think those things are true but you have to diagnose what it happened. it didn't happen because business is bad. there are a million reasons. there are solutions. are around training, or skill initiatives. i would really expand the income tax credit so that if you are making it or nine dollars an hour than the government will pay you three or four. think of it as a negative income tax. we only do it for mothers with babies, not single men. living wage.ou a we can help small businesses. i think it is a wonderful thing to do for society. i think there are solutions that you can have.
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doneration, trade, all properly will have faster growth in america. the people who talk about his problems, they beat up on business and think it will make it better. it won't. you are going to be chairman of the business roundtable and on a group that advises the president elect about policy, business policy. those twoook at roles, but are the initiatives that you think he will tackle first? dimon: i always offer my help. i did for president obama. i will for president-elect trump. think of the ceos and a bunch of other people. he wanted them to be about jobs and going into the economy. hopefully, we will have good ideas.
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people yapping. -- not just people yapping. this is 192 companies. pretty much representing large companies. these large companies represent in the all expenditure united states. i think they are fabulous citizens of this country. they are philanthropic. everyone gets medical benefits. we take care of our veterans. we take care of education, schools. i think they could take a very to help solveoach the nation's problems. and be part of the solution. that is why i took on that challenge. need corporate tax reform. we are driving capital overseas every single day. i think the government made a
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mistake to act like the immersion was the problem. the problem is that our tax rate is somewhat higher than the rest of the world. companies are living among the overseas to be invested overseas. they are buying companies overseas. every study shows that reducing corporate tax rates helps lower paid people and wages. make, we should solve that problem and hope that the administration can do that. dimon sounds off. they want a wrecking ball brought to the government. they want change. we will t take 11 million people out.
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>> you talk recently about
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immigration, education and infrastructure. dimon: i think one of the biggest disgraces in this 50% of kidshat don't graduate high school. and even the kids that do our job ready. as a crime. that is a disgrace. that is america at its absolute worst. we are allowing that to happen. these gives don't have opportunity for the opportunity that we all had it like. we had to fix it. it is not whether things are free. it ends up with you are properly trained for jobs. if you go to germany, two thirds of kids go to vocational school. they get a certificate and a job. city, it's york called aviation high school.
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kids drop out all over the city and they are trained at to maintain small aircraft. hydrolysis, legible systems. and they graduate, $60,000 a year, and phone gets a job. you can do that with accounting. there are another 20. i can't remember the list. that is what we need to be doing. it means that you get an education that leads to a job. it has to be done with local business. local businesses will pay for that. i've been to focus all. that is a fabulous thing we can do. we can create jobs for people. there is a huge amount of social benefits. infrastructure, you mention it, we need to take care of that. control allows educated individuals who went to american -- who got degrees
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here. it allows them to stay. and it we should let them stay and build their careers and their homes. their other 40% of the companies in silicon valley are immigrants. russian, indian, german, etc.. and then i have some kind of path to citizenship. it is very tough. it takes like 15 years if you are a good law-abiding taxpayer here but not a documented can have a petou to become a citizen behind anyone else. you are not going to take 11 -- on annoying people out. all of the things can be done. it is haven't been done. it is a shame. aboutn you talk immigration. you just said we're not going to the port and picolinate -- 11 million people have.
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-- we are not going to kick 11 million people out. we need a much more pragmatic solution. are we going to bring this as an economic argument? dimon: i go to j.p. morgan chase and if you are black, jewish, lgbt, african-american, woman, who support you? it seems the rhetoric has gone away. even the rhetoric on immigration. trump says that if you break the law we will do for you. we estimated that 11 million haveumented, only 800,000 broken luck. i think president obama deported 2.5 million people were breaking the law. it is a pro-jobs, so are you.
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-- is not that they don't like immigrant. they are more afraid that the american way of life is changing. you can be multicultural. you can still support the american way of life. lincoln?abraham we are here to rededicate ourselves to the station. dedicated to the notion that all men are created equal? that washe only nation an idea. it wasn't a tribe. some people are confusing multicultural with somehow changing. that we won't tolerate different religions, we won't tolerate different opinions that we won't tolerate free press. you can support that and be multicultural. when you travel in europe
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where this is also a very deep and him and on, we see it in italy and germany, france, the u.k.. do think that this is a temporary phenomenon in terms of how people are feeling? do they get is generational? do you think it will essentially we'd itself out? ll it be a permanent movement of people more focused on redrawing national borders. regrouping around that? dimon: when you look at something like brazen. there are many different forces were present. some anti-immigration, someone to free trade. people voted for all different reasons. there is to europe, the same frustration on income equality. growth wages. the loss of jobs. if you go to europe, 25%, not
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the u.k., not germany. 30 of people between 25 and are not working. is that sustainable? if we have another generation of that? how did it happen? it was government policies. that of you saw in america they wanted change. they wanted a wrecking ball brought to these government. they want change. they were necessarily voting for what a lot of people said. they want something very different than what they have seen. we want to see something different. we want this to be better. ultimately, we have facts, analysis and details that make that happen. populism itself can be very disruptive -- destructive. look at venezuela, cuba, argentina. we talk about all this disruption. they didn't have peace for the
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2000 years before world war ii. it is our benefits that people are reading. they forget about it but it is important to have peace in europe as well. back, a look at the turnaround. >> this is been a train wreck. >> and how the lessons learned in the motor city can benefit others.
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>> we talked a lot about how getting things done and government policy is structured right now not to get things done. let's look at the troy. -- detroit. the mayor talks about it, it is a lot about nonpartisanship. that is what happens. people coming together, it might not be driven by policy. how is that working? how does that work your? was it that it was a situation that could work?
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do you see that being able to read replicated in the time of that we work on? on a national level. dimon: i would to see lee saunders. i walk in the room and i sadly, what are you saying? he said i don't why we are saying that, i think you guys are a great company. i immediately left that meeting i called appears in the room. it is the people in this room. we did all the heavy lifting. when you look at the mayor, he had a manner. going door-to-door, a white man in a mostly black community got elected. he was talking about what you needed to do in detroit. we needed the street lights on. he said we need jobs, we need affordable housing. we need housing for commercial markets.
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any training. we need entrepreneurs of color. helped byses were this fund. i think one of them worked on your life project here. that was a facing the day. restaurants, this mayor had a huge set of problems. people say what was the one thing you are focused on? he doesn't want to do one. we either get hoback, businesses at again the police come and sanitation, sidewalk. and with a smile, this man set up all of these things. he were percent efficient, it is working. i don't give a dam about the reservoir republicans. -- democrats or republicans.
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it can often be wasteful. the team came up. they asked what do you need? ball.eeded 70,000 fly you know where they were. they said user iphones and ipads. take a picture and you locate every home. he started selling homes. he has on his mobile home it now. we want to be the excelling. we want to get these movies. we can build here and get people into it. i can help the whole community. it helps the whole community. if we try to do everything will eventual -- venture capitalists. working with the governor, the mayor, all the civic unions, the not-for-profit's. there are a lot of things we couldn't possibly do.
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we had 68 people work of others for 20 not-for-profit. they need help. we given data. analytics, money, advice, consulting. all the things you need to get through this and get things off the ground. it has been a fabulous effort. without a mayor like this, i figured it would've been a total waste of time. the 65,000 light is going into night actually. that will be quite an event and an achievement. we are talking about good business. why is an initiative like this before jpmorgan? dimon: we are the largest bank in detroit. we were started by general motors and 1954. the banks were closing.
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they said that we needed bank in detroit. dimon: we are the largest bank in detroit. j.p.one emerged with morgan chase. we bank all the major institutions. the hospitals, the major companies here. it is an important time for us. despite the only towns in america that do not have the signs. most of the major cities did. this is been a train wreck. you all knew it was coming. it was for 20 years. you can throw money at public policy and unfortunately it's a itd trainer to happen -- took a train wreck to happen. this could be a shining example of the right way to do things in society. -- we could do this here. we need a healthy, vibrant bank. we could do this elsewhere.
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we can help these communities. i think it is very good for business. >> when you look at doing projects in detroit. it centers around -- economic opportunities and making a place where people can walk to work. where they have easier access word starts with the family, the job the home. -- ist wreck the payable that replicated? >> you can travel around the world and see what singapore does. it is a country. it was part of malaysia when informed. a prime minister came in with the same provision and strength to get it done. thegep is now higher than gdp of the average american. if prime minister was pretty tough.
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he made sure the streets were clean. they have a lot of affordable housing. -- you sure that they could live like there was segregated buildings. people want to spell each other's food and know each other's kids. i told people that if you put some of my liberal friends down there, it was so be a backwater. forcan punish people spitting on the streets. you can't make people learn english. some people have to think that about what works and what doesn't work. i just mentioned germany possible -- vocational schools. your friend is is when you go around the world about what works and what doesn't. you can read about it. venezuela, ecuador, argentina, cuba, north korea, what did they
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do? you can look at what worked and what didn't. singapore, no natural resources, and unbelievable story. i can go on and on about what works and what doesn't. i worry about that public policies and the constant damage at that. the people in america, you people are hearing the plot -- productivity is low. there is a new normal. that is not true. .e've had multiple awards we are not educating our kids. -- there are failures in the health system, that is what we're going slow. it is not the economic model. asple are looking for simple is. sometimes there are not. all of these things are fixable. next, his thoughts from the world business played for
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the administrative push for change.
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megan: in a new administration with a cast of characters that is very different to what we have seen in past administrations, is it possible, you believe that it is actually possible to unite given this extreme division and particularly on issues like infrastructure that we have tried to get in this country for two decades now, on tax reform, talking about regulation as well, do you think you will be able to lead and business will take a bigger role in saying look, this needs to get done? jamie: business has to have a seat at the table. infrastructure will not be built properly without business having a seat at the table. schooling is not going to happen if businesses don't work with schools about what kind of jobs they really need. so yes, i think business can be a huge positive in the development of an infrastructure plans that both democrats and republicans agree on.
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the democrats, spend money, just spend money, and we do a lot of that. even larry summers wrote about this bridge in cambridge, a tiny little bridge, five years being rebuilt. it is corruption, folks. don't tell me it is not corruption. people are buying up their local mayors, or friends, unions. so the democrats are right. we need infrastructure. we don't need it to create jobs. you all remember that famous milton friedman story? milton friedman was in an asia somewhere and they are building a highway and they have big machines in the back, but they are all using shovels. he says why are using shovels? he says, mr. freeman, that's a great question. jobs. milton friedman said, oh, well in that case, why don't you use spoons? [laughter] jamie: that is the democratic mentality. it will create jobs, but if it is a bridge to nowhere, you are wasting your money.
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if it is a bridge to somewhere, not only do you create jobs in the short run, but it is conducive to growth in the long run. so the republicans are right to question how the money is spent. if they are going to do it, they will want to say, who is doing it, how will it be done, is the money properly spent? this mayor knows how to do it. we don't want washington telling the mayor what he needs. he knows what street lights he needs. there are things to be done, and i think business can bridge that because we are also a watchful eye on wasting money. megan: going back to that milton friedman story, do you think we have done a good enough job explaining to people that part of the fundamental disruption that they are going through and has disrupted your own industry is this move to automation, that some of those jobs, many of those jobs, including detroit and places where we saw a heavy swing in this election, western pennsylvania, ohio, michigan, wisconsin, where i am from, that
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those jobs are gone and they are likely not coming back, and training people for the kind of jobs, the mid-skilled jobs, the upper skill jobs, next-generation jobs, equipping our next generation, are we doing a good enough job explaining that to people and equipping them to succeed? jamie: we are educating people the wrong way. technology is the greatest thing that happened in mankind. until we had agriculture, we would still be hunting buffalo and living in tents. specialization created a knowledge, knowledge built on top of each other building institutions. we went from fire to the wheel to steam engines to wonderful phones we have in our pockets now that do things you couldn't imagine. this is the reason that mankind is living the way it lives today. i'm not going to deny the problems we have, but we would not be living where we are today. when my grandfather was born,
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there were no cars, 1897, no cars, no planes, no health care. you got sick, you died. ok? so now it is 120 years later and it is pretty good over that time, and mankind has gotten better and better. there is a book called, the better angels of our nature, and it analyzed things like people who were murdered at the hands of other people, and that number has been coming down every single century for the last 20 centuries, including last century, which included world war i and world war ii. i believe this century so far is better than last century, despite what you read in the paper, so mankind is slowly learning how to get better. technology drives it. yes, it is scary. it changes things. it is disruptive. we have done a bad job helping the disrupted. what we need to do is say let's not hold back technology, let's use it to improve mankind. people are worried about autonomous driving. 40,000 people a year die in cars.
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40,000 people. when we have autonomous driving, it will probably be 5000 people. it will be a good thing, not a bad thing. warren buffett talks about 11 million people working on farms 40 years ago or 50 years ago, and now it is a million. that is a good thing. you want people to go back picking corn? is that going to make society better? because you have a job? not really. mankind has gone from seven days a week, six days a week, and five days a week, and i suspect that we are down to four as i speak. [laughter] jamie: we will adjust if we need to adjust. if you and i are running the government and all of a sudden there are going to be 10,000 jobs lost, we would do something, slow down, retrain. this is not about youth. it is about good paying jobs. how do you do with that? if a trucker loses a job, he doesn't want to go back to earning seven dollars an hour. he has got a family. he wants to live with dignity. there you can redevelop, retrain, and do things to ease that issue and make jobs available and stuff like that. i think it is doable.
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i wouldn't stop it. maybe you might slow it down or modify if it is going to cause too much disruption to society. megan: this is why, and i'm glad you brought up trade, people who feel that global trade has hollowed out their community, their manufacturing, their industry in the part of the world where they grew up. it is difficult to explain that globalization of industry generally lifts the boats higher, but may not have lifted your boat. those jobs of gone to more cost-efficient factories in mexico, places where labor is cheaper and they can get the product done just as well. that is a message that we see came flying back in this election cycle, everywhere across the world, and people are saying, resisting globalization, that is a trend that if it deepens will be bad for business and likely bad for your business? jamie: there are issues where globalization was unfair. i won't go through, you could say in steel or something like that.
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there are issues where we did not deal with disruption properly. hugely beneficial for mankind. hugely beneficial to the united states. if it helps 98 people, maybe two people are hurt. but we all get cheaper sneakers, but now someone lost their job. now most manufacturing jobs, everyone estimates automation has generally been a good thing. some of these were very tough jobs. mankind adjusts. i would be in favor of having proper trade, fair trade, that is a legitimate issue to be fair, that helps american net-net-net, but where it does cause something negative, in the tpp, there was a thing called trade adjustment assistance where people can say this hurt my community or my business and they get relocation, redevelopment, retraining, income assistance, all those things. the republicans always worry about that, but the concept is very good. we just need to find a way to broaden it out so people say, fine, i understand society will take care of me too because i am
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a net loser from this thing. megan: coming up, dimon's take on minimum wage. jamie: i say raise it. share the wealth, ok? ♪
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megan: let's talk about regulation, which you have mentioned as one of the policy issues. when i talk to people on the street now and talk about regulation in the financial sector in particular and we see what may be a rollback of certain parts, dodd-frank, other elements brought in since the crisis, and there is concern it will go back to a less regulated, and in people's minds less regulated means more risky, and that there will be no way to control the more esoteric corners of the world and that risk will migrate there. and there is a real risk of this
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regulation is stripped back. i know you think they have gone too far in certain respects. how do you see that playing out over the next four years? jamie: it is a legitimate, j.p. morgan did not jeopardize the system. we did not cause the crisis. we have three times more capital than we had back then. how much do think we lost in the nine quarters after the lehman crisis? people guess $5 million, $10 million. we made $20 billion. we were not jeopardizing anyone. we helped. we bought wamu. we bought bear stearns. we saved 30,000 jobs, and in doing so, helped governments, cities, schools. i understand the concept. the american public saw a disaster. it wasn't their fault. and generally it was wall street and washington. they absolutely have the right to say that we want a safe and sound banking system that does cost me money and doesn't take down my economy. those are true. that does not mean therefore
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that all these rules and regulations are good. they are unrelated. the american public has been told that. what ever the banks want, don't do it. strengthen dodd-frank, that is not accurate. a lot of these things in dodd-frank had nothing to do with the crisis, zero, just the pet peeves of certain democrats who put things in because they felt like it. if it had the name of a senator on it, that was the bad part. like barney frank and i agreed who put things in because they felt like it. if it had the name of a senator on it, that was the bad part. that some of the thing should have been in there. any time you have done major legislation and major regulation, and they are different by the way, it is perfectly reasonable for people to look back, re-analyze, recalibrate, think it through, talk about what good it did, what damage it did. folks, we have not solved the housing market with mortgages. because we have not solved that issue among seven agencies, banks and others are afraid to make mortgages, first time buyers, self-employed, and people with a prior bankruptcy. there is nothing wrong with them. it was usually due to death, divorce, disease, loss of job. not in one case was it a bad
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person. they deserve a second chance. we have not fixed that. i would look at some of the the rules and regulation reducing credit available in the system, but they do not create more safety and soundness. i don't want to bore you with the details of that. dodd-frank is not the bible. to me, even chuck schumer said to me, when we look at it, recalibrate it, synchronize it, reduce the negative parts, while still accomplishing the ultimate goal, so it's perfectly reasonable to look at these things and try to figure out what you can do better as opposed to a knee-jerk reaction. megan: do you think the days where the industry essentially has a scarlet letter on its back still from the crisis are over or at least fading? jamie: the second tarp happened, and that was a scarlet letter. not every bank needed it, but
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the rhetoric was all the banks were all bailed out. they were not all bailed out. that part was not true. no one ever asked that question, but that became a scarlet letter, and i don't think that will go away for a long time. i think you have to earn your stripes every single day with every single client in every single city around the world, and that is my job. i am very proud of j.p. morgan chase. i am proud of what we do and what we accomplish. we help society. when we do make mistakes, we admit it and try to fix them. megan: as we approach the end of the president's eight years in office and look at what he has accomplished and his relationship with business. you have had an up-and-down relationship with the administration. if you are being candid, what grade letter would you give him on what he has done for business? jamie: i am not going to do that. [laughter] jamie: i wish they had spent more time having conversations
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about what works and what doesn't work, and working with business, and not acting like business was the opposite. so today, democrats say very often, i'm going to take care of you, you, you. i'm going to give you free education, and it is almost like the person they're going to take care of you from is us. i just think it is wrong. i think that whole attitude is just misguided. sounds good. it is misguided. i listen to bernie sanders speak sometimes. he wants insurance for everybody. he wants pension benefits for everybody. he wants good paying jobs for everybody. he wants education for everybody. the minimum wage is $15 for a teller. we train them. we pay people well. everyone who works at j.p. morgan chase gets medical insurance. so that person making $15 an hour makes $33,000 per year and gets insurance worth $10,000, and a pension and a 401(k) match.
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listen, we do all those things. we train our people. we take care of our people. we take care of our communities. we are doing exactly what you want a good company to do. somehow bernie and i are together on that. [laughter] megan: i'm sure bernie will love that when he sees this. let's talk about minimum wage. jamie: you talk about the press, ok? here in the american press, no one asked bernie sanders or a supporter, what is socialism? and how is it done elsewhere? well, there are two answers. it is never done well elsewhere. it has been a disaster. and socialism is when the state owns all private enterprise. that is what it is. you think someone would ask, do you think people would have voted for that? megan: next time i see him. but talking about minimum wage, that has been one of your big pushes.
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and you believe it is vital to growth as well. you have moved up at j.p. morgan. we now have a nominee for labor secretary who has been one of the most open advocates against raising the minimum wage and has been quite firm about that. jamie: i don't think so. what i read, what he said is that the government should be careful about raising its minimum wage too high. it should be a decision made at a local level. a lot of businesses, california and new york can afford $15, but upstate new york probably can't. i think he was saying he's not against the state raising it thoughtfully that can help people. i am kind of in favor of that. i would not be in favor of the government doing it and imposing hardships. i save you can afford it, raise it. share the wealth of little bit. we are more worried about the pay of our lower paid people than our higher paid people. the other thing is to help with tax credit. my example is, that will help small business.
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so if you are a small business that needs wages at $10 an hour to get by, then this will help you. you can attract better people. they will be paid more. you have less attrition. it may allow you to afford more benefits over time. there are solutions to this. up raising is a tiny piece of it. i want to make the place better and i will give it everything i have got as long as i am here. megan: a peek into the future as jamie dimon talks about his legacy and j.p. morgan chase. that is up next. ♪
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megan: when you look at the world as it is shaping up right now and when you look at this administration, what are the things that concern you and the possible black swan events that we could see that would be truly disruptive? jamie: if you look at the geopolitical trends, and we made at a list of all the big one since world war ii, korea, vietnam, afghanistan, iran, iraq, china had a border
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skirmish with russia, india and pakistan, china and vietnam, i am missing a bunch, only one derailed the global economy. the others had an effect. vietnam had a huge effect, but only one, and it was the 1973 middle east crisis that derailed the economy. geopolitics is always noisy, but with little effect. from normal friction, it is it better or worse? it's probably worse. there are more wars in the middle east. more and more uncertainty around the nuclear risk, because of iran, russia, north korea. north korea has a bomb and will soon be able to deliver it to california. that is not my assessment. that is the assessment of top people in the government, two years or so. that is a serious issue for the
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world, but i worry obviously about that, and peace in the middle east, but in reality what i worry about most is bad policy, us doing things that makes it worse, government shutdowns, not fixing the school system. if you want populism and want it to get worse, don't fix the school system, grow the economy slower. that will be worse for the world than anything else, and the world needs a strong america. i remind people, our military might, and if you have served in the military, god bless you for doing it. it is unbelievable. it is directly related to our economic might, so we better be careful about the vibrancy of this economy and make sure we have that. that is the solution to a lot of these geopolitical issues too. megan: if the world needs a strong america, does the world need an america closer to russia? jamie: geopolitics is different than friendship. when you say that, it is like we are going to hug russia. there are serious issues with russia. they should be dealt with
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seriously. i think they are kind of resolvable. i don't know that. i'm not an expert in that. we obviously do business there, but i would put that on the list of things that should be done. my own view, we should have a very strong relationship with nato. nato has been dramatically weakened all these years, dramatically. and american troops should be side-by-side in the middle east and if anything takes place in europe to defend europe side-by-side with the british, french, german, italian troops, not just american boys out there. ok? by the way, that is exactly what donald trump is talking about if you listen to him. that group, the transatlantic group, should offset putin. all that means is that he can't go anywhere that is in the eu, and my own view and i've listened to henry kissinger, you can have a negotiated settlement of ukraine, and it is probably doable at one point. after that, i don't think putin wants to pick a fight. i think he want's to get rid of the sanctions.
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i think he wants to become important in the world, and be an accepted leader around the world, so we will see what happens with russia, but i think it is a serious issue now. megan: there has been a lot of reshuffling in recent weeks in leadership, and you are not going to be the treasury secretary now. when you think of your own legacy in looking forward, with detroit very much part of it as well, what is it that you want to be remembered for? what is it you want to have achieved? jamie: when i was a young ceo, the former ceo of the company came to see me and said you have to make your mark, leave your legacy, do one big thing. i said, what you're talking about? international, whatever, and i think if a ceo talks about one thing, sell the stock, ok? we have to do it all right. i have to do it right in every country. i have got to get the whole mosaic right or i fail.
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the one thing i want them to say, "we are going to miss that son of a --." hopefully the world is better off for him and he made the world a better place. that's it. i'm not looking for any thing else. i am so proud of my company. i want you to know that. i am proud of our people and what we do every day. it has unbelievable capabilities. i still want to make sure this is still one of the best banks in the world in 20 years, so i am proud to be part of the place. megan: is there going to be a second act after you leave, when you leave? any hints? jamie: one of my great friends and partners said to me one day, you need to do one last thing. i said, like what? turnaround g.m. for the government or something like that? i said, are you kidding me? i live and breath j.p. morgan chase. i wear this jersey. you say, don't tell the board that, but i really mean it. it makes no difference to me.
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i want to make this place better, and i am going to give it everything i have got while i am here. when i'm no longer here or if i cannot give it what i have got, then i should move on. that can help do stuff but i should not be the ceo. if you're going to be the quarterback or head coach, you have to give it your all. there is nothing else you can do. and so when i leave here, no, i will probably teach a little i may write. i may write a book. i have a lot to share. [laughter] jamie: get involved in business. i have been on boards. i'm not on boards for a public company board that i like, the people, the product. i'm lazy, so i probably will go to new york city. i will have a gas. i will do a lot of stuff. megan: one last question then, if donald trump did call you up in a year or two years and we did see the economy teetering a bit and felt like things were slipping back into recession, would you take that call? would you join him? jamie: first of all, i would never not take a call from the president of the united states. i would consider what he has to say. again, i don't think i am suited for it.
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if you can convince me that i'm the only person who can do something like that, i would consider it a patriotic duty. i doubt that will be the case. megan: but you are open to it? jamie: i would take the call. again, i don't think it would happen. ♪
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announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: welcome to the program. we begin the program with two supreme court justices in conversation. we spoke with ruth bader ginsburg and sonia sotomayor. >> i saw myself in those days as a teacher. my parents about the teacher would be a good optic -- occupation for me because they were welcomed there.

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