tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN July 12, 2013 9:00pm-10:01pm PDT
this is "piers morgan live." welcome to the viewers in the united states and around the world. right now the six women deciding the fate of george zimmerman are back in the hotel, and we can only imagine what is going through their minds. that he deliberated for three hours and 33 minutes. the jury will return at 9:00 a.m. to begin deliberating again for the trial that is gripping america. will they find george zimmerman guilty or not guilty of murdering trayvon martin, and could they return for a manslaughter conviction or will they simply acquit him of all charges? they asked for 200 exhibits and reams of testimony to pore over. a fiery closing argument from the defense and an equally rebuttal from the prosecution. >> do we think he might have acted in self-defense?
not convinced, not a concern, that he may just have act in self-defense? if you reach that conclusion, you get to stop. you really do. why? because self-defense is a defense to everything. >> this isn't a complicated se. it's a common sense case, and it's not a case about self-defense but denial, george zimmerman. incredible lineup of guests for me tonight. judges, top legal experts and a studio audience with opinions you'll want to hear. we'll get to them in a moment. martin savidge is outside the courthouse in sanford, florida. martin, this is it now.
the jury is out. they spent three and a bit hours deliberating today and asked for some documents. tell me about significance of that. >> well, they did. the jury is allowed to ask questions, and in this particular case after their deliberation, an hour and a half or so, they said they had one and that, of course, is the window into what may be going on in the deliberation room. they asked for was specifically a list of all the exhibits. they wanted them broken down by number and description. that caught a lot of people's attention because it was like oh, maybe this could be awhile. they seem to have a lot they wish to review. >> they would also be aware there are lots of people watching them all over the america, all the warned, and they will want to take their time. everyone is aware of the o.j. simpson jury factor where it was felt they raced and wanted to do things properly. >> they do. >> keep in mine, of course, that they have been shielded from the way this trial has grown.
they knew, of course, somewhat about the story, but they have not known how significantly the americans have been glued to the television sets watching this. they do know what they have to do it's important. it a matters. there is one life lost and one life that remains on the line. john guy actually summed it up. he took for the prosecution that self-defense argument that the defense has used and turned it on it's ear. listen to this. >> started at the 711 where that child had every right to be where he was. that child had every right to do what he was doing, walking home. that child had every right to be afraid of a strange man following him, first in his car
and then on foot. and did that child not have the right to defend himself from that strange man? >> powerful point. in other words, didn't trayvon have the right of self-defense? it just wasn't one way for george zimmerman. >> right, and also very powerful testimony, of course, pack from the defense, mark o'mara, in particular. being pretty calm most of the time but quite animated, too. tell me about his performance today. >> quell, you know, one of the things he's worried about it's not just second-degree murder, but there could be another charge of manslaughter, and it's possible the jury could say, well, that's the compromise, and it's not going to be murder, but we know someone has died. maybe this is a compromise verdict. and he is very much opposed to that. he worries of sympathy.
here is how he explained it. >> it is a tragedy truly, but you can't allow sympathy to feed into it. when i say that to you, you should sit back and raise your hand and go are you nuts? how dare you tell me to leave sympathy out of my life? how dare you tell me to leave all of my emotions? how dare you? i don't do that ever in my life. welcome to a criminal courtroom because, unfortunately, you have to be better than your presumptions. you have to be better than what you do in everyday life, better, at least different, at least unique. >> and it is a very unique challenge that those jurors now face. their first day is over. they will begin tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m., piers. >> martin savidge, thank you very much indeed. outside the courthouse in sanford is benjamin crump. he's the attorney. thanks for joining me again. what do you make out jury so far
out three and a bit hours asking for a lot of documentation, clearly prepared to go through a lot of evidence, it would seem? >> well, piers, what i think is going on is they are looking at the evidence, and we've always believed that if they looked at the evidence, that they will hold george zimmerman accountable for killing an unarmed teenager. we've always said there is overwhelming evidence to hold him accountable for killing trayvon because he got out of his car, and he profiled and pursued and chased an unarmed teenage kid. >> now one of the more dramatic moments today is when mark o'mara for the defense showed a picture of trayvon martin alive and then held up his autopsy photograph. let's listen to what happened there. >> two months, three months before trayvon martin passed away, that's what he looked like. he lost half his blood. we know that, so on that picture
that we have of him on the medical examiner's table, yeah, he does look emaciated, but here is him three months before that night, so it's in evidence. take a look at it, because this is the person and this is the person who george zimmerman encountered that night. >> what did you make of that, ben crump? because it was clearly trying to create an impression to the jury that trayvon martin wasn't just a kid, he was a quite strapping teenager? >> what is interesting about that, piers, it was extremely emotional, especially for trayvon's mother. it was that point she became very emotional and actually had to excuse herself from the courtroom. you know, mark o'mara said in his closing summation that you
should not use presumptions to convict the innocent when referring to his client george zimmerman, but isn't that exactly what george zimmerman did that night when he profiled and made assumptions about trayvon martin and was wrong and, unfortunately, trayvon had to pay with his life? >> there was a moment when mark o'mara turned his attention to you personally. this was an interview with martin savidge i spoke to earlier. this is a clip in that interview where he talks about you. >> do you think that george zimmerman who have even been charged had been crump not been pulled into this? >> no, ben crump or someone like him because had ben crump not gotten involved in the case, maybe for some good reasons to begin with. if he believed there was something here swept under the rug, get on into it. i'm very okay with that. >> but you didn't quite say it that way. you made it sound like if it wasn't for ben crump, george
zimmerman would be free at this time and we would not be in this trial. >> that's correct. i think it was a made-up story for purposes that had nothing to do with george zimmerman and that they victimized him and complain about trayvon martin being victimized. george zimmerman was victimized by a publicity campaign to smear him when he wasn't and a murderer when he wasn't. >> ben crump, your reaction to that? >> well, piers, you know, they seem to forget that trayvon martin was a dead unarmed kid on the ground who his client profiled, followed, pursued, and shot in the heart. the only thing that brought us into the matter is when they told trayvon's father that they were not going to arrest the killer of his unarmed son, who only had a bag of skittles and a can of iced tea walking home from the 7-eleven doing
everything he legally had the right to do. so what do you tell parents like tracy and sabrina whose child only was trying to walk home and was profiled for whatever reason? we don't know if george zimmerman was a racist or not, but we do know he profiled trayvon martin for some reason and got out of that car with a .9 millimeter gun and pursued him. if we would not have gotten involved as tracy martin told me when i first talked to him, they said they will not do anything about it, and i didn't believe that, piers. i did not believe that as a lawyer. i said hold on. let me make sure i get the facts right because i know that they would arrest certain people on hypothesis. they had evidence of a kid dead, a confessed killer, and they weren't going to arrest him. that's something wrong with that. that's why so many people signed those petitions, over 2 million
people. they said you can't kill an unarmed kid and not even be arrested. >> ben crump, the jury out now so you can speak relatively freely in that sense. what do you think is the most likely verdict? many people think that the case, the second-degree murder, hasn't quite been met by the state but there's a pretty compelling argument for manslaughter conviction. do you agree with that? >> i'll say it like this. i'll quote prosecutor john guy today, who, i think he said -- i have said this previously. if trayvon martin was in the car and profiled and followed and pursued george zimmerman and killed him, what would the verdict be? >> ben crump, always good to talk to you. thank you very much indeed for joining me. i want to bring in my special guest tonight. cnn legal analyst jeffrey toobin
and judge glenda hatchett, host of "the judge hatchett show" and alex and host of judge alex and jane and marc lamont hill. welcome to you-all. what a stellar panel i must say. jeffrey toobin, let me start with you. when you hear ben crump talk like that, it's very hard to see how this jury can basically say to george zimmerman, i think off you go? >> i don't know. i think this jump will do exactly what they think is right. you know, one of the things you don't realize about a sequestered jury is that they really are sequestered, and i am sure one of the things they will say when this trial is over, we had no idea the whole country was following this. i think the initial sign we get is they will be very maticlous asking for a list of evidence, suggest they will look at the evidence with a considerable amount of care, let the chips fall where they may, and i don't think they are going to be focused on the public reaction.
i think they will be focused, as they should be, on the evidence. >> marc lamont hill, do you agree with that? >> yeah, i think they will be focused on facts and biases and interpretations, and their emotions will weigh in on it. but at the end of the day they will make the best decision they can based on the evidence they have seen. >> six women, five of them mothers, some of the stuff today from rebuttal directly aimed at that fact that they are all female, many of them are mothers. this is a 17-year-old boy, you know, walking home to his family who was unarmed and got shot dead just on -- forget evidence for a moment, just on any human level, isn't that going to be incredibly powerful with an all-female mother-related jury. >> powerful, compelling but ultimately may not be persuasive. if they look at the evidence and decide despite their emotion that they are not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that
george zimmerman -- the defense has done an amazing job for the last two weeks of showing how would you feel at night if they saw trayvon? as such, those same emotions could play out the other way. >> judge alex, no one knows florida law better than you. we've established that. what do you think? >> i take issues with one of the points mr. crump made. i'll tell you right around the time that trayvon's incident happened, shortly before that there was an exact opposite case in miami, florida, a black male who shot three white males and his friend and killed him. police did not arrest him because he claimed stand your ground. he was attacked and defended himself. the next few months they investigated and realized his defense didn't hold water and turned around and arrested him. the reason the police have to follow that tact is because they can only arrest you if they have probable cause, and if they show up and there are no witnesses and you claim self-defense and have nothing to defeat it, if they arrest you, they are facing potential civil liability.
they can be sued because they arrested you without probable cause. >> judge hatchett, this to me is a total farce, the idea that people in america, the great superpower of the world can wander around, gunning people down and not face arrest because they were acting in self-defense or standing their ground is ludicrous. >> one of the things that come from this very tragic situation and regardless of what happens, i think we all agree there is a tragedy that this 17-year-old lost his life. >> absolutely. >> i don't think there is any, any dispute on that. but i will tell you, piers, i think that one of the best things that will happen out of this is that there will be a discussion now about stand your ground because we haven't heard the last of this. i mean, we got another case coming up in florida later where a teenager was killed, and i think that we have to really get very serious about where we are
because this can go far further than any of us could ever anticipate in this country. >> jane weintraub, do you agree with that? i'm not as confident. gun control in america, where absolutely zero happened after sandy hook and aurora. why should i have any confidence living in america that anything will change here? >> personally i think stand your ground is a terrible think. i think it's giving extra permission to kill people. >> i think it's an awful law. [ applause ] >> i think at the same time when we look at this case, that the jury is out on, we have to focus on the evidence. and as hard as it is, mark o'mara, as i told you the other night, the judge will read the jury instruction that sympathy does not belong in the courtroom. your verdict must be based on the evidence alone because not to do so would be a travesty of justice. >> okay. let's take a short break. we'll cook back and talk about the jury. i want to have a look at the zimmerman jurors. ask how an all-female jury could change the dynamic in that jury
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what is that, when a grown man frustrated, angry with hate in his heart gets out of his car with a loaded gun and follows a child, a stranger in the dark, and shoots him through his heart? >> he's not guilty of anything but protecting his own life. >> two very different cases for the jurors to consider but whose side will they take? back with me my guests and also joining me is jury consultant jo ellen demetrius.
the jury is made up of six women, five mothers, five white mothers, women, what difference do you think that will make to the dynamic in the jury room, if anything? >> if you look at your show over the past couple weeks and you have much of a different opinion with multiple women on, you can see how you have in disagreement they can be get. >> i'm glad you said that. >> [ laughter ] >> i was actually involved on one of those panels. >> i know you were, yeah.
no man can get away with saying. i'm sure that's true. i'm also sure, although they won't be aware of the huge attention the trial is getting on television, they will be aware, i'm sure, before that this was potentially going to be a big story, wouldn't they? >> of course, they are. let me give you an example. what a sequestered jury gets as a newspaper in the morning, looks something like this. >> right. you know it's on the front page. >> the whole paper looks like that. so definitely they know it's a big story. many of them knew a lot about the case before they were selected as jurors. >> jeffrey toobin, we were discussing if anything would change. you made an interesting point about that. >> the politics of gun control has changed. in 1966 robert f. kennedy, martin luther king are assassinated. the impact result is the gun action of 1968. that's how we responded. now for a big part of the country with terrible acts of gun violence, virginia tech, the answer is more guns, guns in schools, guns on the street and that's -- you know, we here on west 58th street, which is not the whole country. >> yeah. >> "have to recognize that a lot of people out there sees these guns differently. >> a lot of people said to me, what would have stopped this is
trayvon martin had a gun, too. judge hatchett, when i hear that i despair for america. because i think how can that possibly be the way you resolve the situation? you don't arm everybody else, do you? >> no, my heart, as i told you before, just bleeds over this situation, but i did have an interesting question today. someone said to me, well, judge, why didn't george just pull his gun and say i'm the neighborhood watch, stay where you are until the police gets here. i mean, he's the one who has the gun. why didn't he do that? >> self-defense. >> he don't have a right to do that because that would be an aggravated assault. i suspect, and this is pure suspicion. i suspect he did pull the gun. >> i do, too. >> i think that gun is out and it's hard to get it out, but he never would admit that. he would have in legal right to pull a gun on somebody committing a crime. >> you're right. >> i thought it was interesting with the use of force expert,
the prosecution was cross-examining him said if zimmerman is being straddled by trayvon martin, how easy would it be for him to get the gun out of his waist belt? >> i think they wanted to make the point he did that anyway, that he approached him with the gun and that trayvon was defending himself in response. >> jeff, the point you were going to make? >> the defense is that he got out of the car and then he was just assaulted. it's not that -- i mean, obviously i don't know what happened, but we should be clear that his defense is not that he chased him down, is that he got out of the car and trayvon was on him. >> judge alex, you've presided over these kind of cases before. >> unfortunately. >> did you find george zimmerman not through testimony that he gave but through all the statements we heard, did you find him a convincing character to listen to? did you believe his story? >> i actually did.
my suspicion about him possibly pulling out the gun and that's all it is, is because it explains a lot of things like why trayvon might jump him if he thinks this crazy cracker is pulling a gun and might be in danger and explains the difficulty of getting a gun out when somebody is on top of you. but when he tells the story, for him to have made it up, he made it up immediately after the shooting, within seconds of a witness coming out from the apartment. he would have to be brilliant to know he doesn't know who watched. he doesn't know if anybody videotaped and what forensic evidence he'll find on the floor and yet the story he told with minor inconsistencies does coincide with the physical evidence in almost every material way. >> i've seen enough of george zimmerman to know he's not brilliant. i think -- honestly. [ applause ] >> i think george zimmerman believes the story he's telling and i believe this is complex. i think we wanted a flat, simple, easy story which is this crazy racist saw a black kid and wanted to go on a killing spree.
>> i think he saw a young, black man but i don't think he said there is a black kid, i want to go kill him. that's what i think it's messy. and i also agree with you, judge alex. you see this big, scary black guy and you don't approach him and pull your gun first. >> he's taught a neighborhood watch. >> he's watching him run from him. he's watching him pull the hood up. everything is building towards this guy is up to no good. >> yeah, he had the gun out. >> don't forget george zimmerman's nose is broken. the only injuries are on george zimmerman. >> but his injuries are not that bad. >> they are not that good. >> we don't actually even know for a fact his nose was broken. he never had an x-ray -- >> piers, piers, we know -- >> why -- >> fractured. >> we were portrayed a picture of a i go who had to shoot trayvon martin because he genuinely feared he was about to be killed himself. >> no, no, no. that's not the law. the law is you have to be in fear of imminent danger of great bodily harm or death.
you don't have to be. >> these jurors are going back and looking at the perspective ever -- of the fact that as a neighborhood watch commander, he is taught to observe, report and be a good witness. >> the only thing that applies to is if you go ahead and have him kicked off the neighborhood watch. they spent a lot of time talking about the guidelines for neighborhood watch. those aren't the elements of a crime. the elements of a crime have nothing to do with that. >> let's take a short break. >> if they are not an element of a crime, it shows his intent. if he's been taught this, then to least car is beyond his training, and you've got to wonder, if those jurors are thinking what happened that he actually left that car to go after trayvon? >> okay. let take a short break. when we come back, the defense used an expert and he's in the audience tonight. we'll talk to him after the
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dennis ruth said there is no other option for the defendant, for everybody else. he had to admit that, he could have had other things, but he said for the defendant there wasn't another option, but consider this. this is so important when you consider his opinion. the only evidence he had, the only evidence he had about what
was happening at the time the shot was fired was from who? >> questioning the testimony of the defense witness dennis root and joining now are our guests, and if you want to join in, just tweet me @piersmorgan. lots of tweets coming in with lots of opinions. dennis root, you gave this testimony which you basically imply the only course of action that was left open to george zimmerman was to take out his gun and shoot trayvon martin. why did you believe that so strongly? >> you take into csideration everything you learn about an individual. to say there are additional options that are available to a person is taking into consideration whether they have fighting skills, any other things. screaming for help was an option which he utilized if you believe he was the one screaming on the recording. to be asked what other options there are and the gentleman says i have other options, everybody else does. i have 22 years of training
behind me. mr. zimmerman did not. to say what options he had -- >> he's an older guy, a bigger guy. it's a fights. there are no weapons other than his gun. he's up against a 17-year-old kid who is a bit -- doesn't know what is going on. he's walking home. surely there is another option than pulling out a gun and shooting him dead. >> the main concern you have is everybody makes the presumption that it's just a 17-year-old kid walking home. >> but that's what he was. >> none of us, including myself know, how the altercation began and how it was. the perception that's important is what took place in george zimmerman's mind when he discharged the weapon, and as long as he perceived he was in eminent peril from great bodily harm or death, he's justified under florida law to discharge the firearm. >> doesn't this cut to the quick of the whole trial, that so many people feel that there must have been another option than just shooting this boy dead. >> right, and to your point, i
mean, no one knows but trayvon and george zimmerman whether or not george zimmerman exposed a weapon prior to the encounter and whether or not the struggle may, in fact, all have been over a weapon because what the prosecution was trying to do all day today and part of yesterday was to say it is virtually impossible to retrieve the weapon while you're on the ground. so how is it that the weapon gets drawn? i think that that becomes a crucial point. i thought the prosecution would raise that much earlier. i thought that was a crucial idea, which is how do you get the gun out behind your back, move it over his legs, up to his chest and fire that weapon? if, in fact, the gun is out prior to the engagement of the physical altercation, then the person defending themselves against great bodily harm or death switches from trayvon martin to -- from george
zimmerman to trayvon martin, and the only person who has testified in this entire case as to whether or not that gun stayed holstered the entire time has been the man who is charged with the murder -- >> right -- >> -- of trayvon martin. >> john kelly, what do you think of that? >> going to what zimmerman's options are. one, he could have stayed in the car, left the gun in the car, throw, followed 30 feet behind him, and we also don't know how the confrontation started. a lot of people assume that trayvon threw a bunch that broke zimmerman's nose. that could have been a head-butt when they collided. could have been a knee when someone was tackling or when they went to the ground together. there's no doubt that this gun had to have been drawn, brought up, put in his chest, fired cleanly one shot during that struggle if he was yelling for help.
>> judge alex -- >> there were a lot of things in george zimmerman's version i disagree with. i think the gun was out. he was not looking at a street sign. he was following to see and tell the cops where he was -- >> but he didn't intend to shoot trayvon martin. >> someone that intends to shoot doesn't call to report the progress along the way. >> i agree with that. >> what is el advantage, when he gets on the ground, unless the prosecution shows he was the aggressor and he punched trayvon first and there were no injuries on trayvon to document that, what is relevant is when he's on the ground does he have another option to get out? >> the prosecution's hands are tied. >> you don't have evidence to show otherwise. >> if you believe that the gun is already out that makes you the aggress or. >> that's the point. >> what i believe is my speculation. what you have to show a jury is proof, and the prosecution doesn't have it. >> and that's the problem. that's the problem. the state has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt. >> i agree. >> now i believe he never would have gotten out of the car if he didn't have the gun. >> that's true. >> he would just never have
gotten out of car, let's be real about this. >> let me get an audience member who has a question here. damon, you've got a question that's quite pertinent, if it was the other way around. let me ask you a question. >> the fact is that the reason that will was an arrest and a trial is due to a response from the public outcry, national outcry. >> that's true, okay? >> i wonder if it was -- if the roles were reversed whether or not we'd be sitting here having this type of discussion totally. >> what do you think? >> i believe zimmerman is guilty. >> but if the roles were reversed, if trayvon had shot dead george zimmerman -- >> i don't think there would have been the need for a public outcry, number one, i think trayvon would have been arrested right off the bat, and i believe he would have been found guilty right off the bat. [ applause ]
>> i think that to me is the most crucial point about what the public outcry was here. this case is not now nor has it ever been about an extraordinary death. people are shot to death, unfortunately, in america every day. this was about an extraordinary inequity in the application of the law and the misapplication of the presumption of innocence, that who was -- was worthy to be given the presumption of innocence in this case, the man standing over the dead kid with the candy, or the kid on the ground. and what we saw was that the man standing over the dead body was allowed to walk into a police station, give a statement. >> and go home. >> no toxicology test, nothing, and walk out and go home and sleep in his bed. >> wow. >> that's what outraged people.
the jury will be back deciding george zimmerman's fate tomorrow morning. i'm back now with my guests and studio audience. we'll go to a member of the audience, carol frasier. you have a question for the panel. >> i would like to preface my question by a statement made by the judge at the beginning of the case that race cannot be used, the term in the cass. right? >> today o'mara had the audacity to say it's possible zimmerman was intimidated by trayvon because of the burglaries that happened in his neighborhood by african-american males which is clearly racial profiling and his inability to be objective so my question is, can the jury be truly objective. >> that's an interesting point because they produce that had young white woman that testified that said, wow, i had these scary african-americans intruding my home, the whole
picture was building up was that george zimmerman was right to look at a young black teenager and think trouble. that is racial profiling. >> from the moment that incident happened until this very moment, race has been shot through this entire ordeal. what they want us to do is pretend that race doesn't matter and then at the same time smuggle race in. look at trayvon, look at these people that always get away. >> then my second question. this one from daniel. >> i'm around the same age as trayvon, and would this case be different if it was me that night instead of him? >> this is a great question. >> what a question. >> can i answer? >> you've had your chance. >> if trayvon had been that young man, daniel, would we be even debating this here? >> might be debating parts of it. i think there probably would have been an arrest much more quickly at that point, but, piers, bottom line, is the whole
thing boils down to the stand your ground rule where you have a man who can take a concealed gun, initiate a confrontation, and then if he starts to lose can shoot his opponent dead. >> in the end they didn't actually use stand your ground as their defense though they could have done, but self-defense is almost the same thing, and it does seem -- i keep coming back to this. it seems quite extraordinary that you can shoot an unarmed teenager dead, and you don't even get arrested that night. >> as you pointed out, this is not a stand your ground case. >> right. >> and i'm against a stand your ground case. >> good for you, good. >> the castle doctrine which is what most of america uses, this would be the same analysis that's done across the country. they would do the exact same thing. basically they would look at perception of the individual. if you got up in the middle of the night and shot somebody coming through the window of your home and it turned out to be a 17-year-old neighbor who your daughter invited over, would you not be prosecuted, unarmed, a 17-year-old.
you weren't injured because your perception at that time is what matters. was it reasonable and were you afraid? that's what the jury is deciding. was george afraid and was his fear reasonable in. >> we're in the in zimmerman's castle. >> doesn't matter where it is, doesn't matter. >> but both people had the right to be where they were that night, and i will concede that what this young man just asked is, yes, someone who shot you would have been arrested, and i take it even one step further and say that if you were female you would have been arrested before they even asked a question, right, that some people are granted the right to feel fear from other sorts of people in our society, and that is not equitable in our society. >> okay. i want to do an interesting little experiment with this audience. not scientific and i have no idea before you came in what your view is of this trial and doesn't really matter. i want to know of the three verdicts that come come in, right now, from everything you've seen and heard of this
case, how would you, if you were a juror, vote? who would go for second-degree murder? so a few hands, maybe five or six hands. who would go for an acquittal? again. maybe five or six hands. who would go for a manslaughter conviction? >> so the significant majority of this audience, and i suspect, marc lamont hill, is a reflection of a wider cross-section across america. it seems like the fairest way out of this would be a manslaughter conviction. even though it carries a very heavy sentence, mandatory, at least 10 to 12 years. >> muff longer than 10 to 12 years. i think that when there's a dead kid on the ground and they know who shot him, it's very difficult for jurors to walk away and watch george zimmerman go home at end of the week. it's just hard mentally to come to that conclusion because they
feel like something has to be done. in fact, the prosecution didn't make the case. they did not make a case for second-degree murder. regardless of what they think, they didn't make that case. i think they made a case for manslaughter that's at least compelling. >> after the break martin savidge joins us with a live update from the courthouse in sanford. and didn't know where to start. a contractor before at angie's list, you'll find reviews on everything from home repair to healthcare written by people just like you. no company can pay to be on angie's list, so you can trust what you're reading. angie's list is like having thousands of close neighbors, where i can go ask for rsonal recommendations. that's the idea. before you have any work done, check angie's list. find out why more than two million members count on angie's list. angie's list -- reviews you can trust. i love you, angie. sorry, honey. details are really important during four course. i want to make sure that everything is perfect. that's why i do what i do. [ male announcer ] it's red lobster's just $14.99. start your feast with a choice of soup,
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zimmerman's fate. martin savidge is live with an update. martin, very lively debate tonight. and what is crystal clear to me is that many, many people just wish they had more hard facts to answer so many of these unanswered questions. it would make it all so much easier, wouldn't it? >> reporter: yeah, it would. especially for i guess those six jurors. i am glad to see this debate, because many journalists feared that this was not a trial that would gain the kind of attention that others have. but, of course, there are serious issues here to be debated as a nation, so it is story, that so many people have followed it in this country. tomorrow morning it begins again. 9:00 a.m. is when the jurors will show up and they will go into the courtroom and where judge debra nelson will go through their questions to make sure they have not had any contact with the outside world
essentially, and then they go off to deliberate more. we have been told once it gets into saturday, if there's a verdict, there will be a one hour heads up, at least, so everyone can get in position, including the media, and report it if we get to that point tomorrow. >> are they likely to continue the pattern of deliberating until 6:00 p.m. eastern night. is that how things normally work? >> it could fluctuate. it's possible we knew during the trial there were times when the judge would going until 10:00 at night so if the jurors feel like they are close, really making progress, they could stay late. it's up to them. the judge respects that and will give them plenty of lead room. >> martin savidge, thanks for your excellent reporting. let me go now to crazy craybill. you've got an interesting point about george zimmerman. >> george zimmerman gained 120 pounds in only 16 months. with this huge devastating
weight gain, do you think it had any affect on the trial or the jury's perception of george zimmerman? >> judge hatchett, let me go to you on this one. he is a completely different looking man. do you think it was a deliberate strategy? >> i don't think so. >> to say, how could this guy so out of shape ever win a fight? >> i really don't think so, piers. this is a man who is stressed. i think his life has changed radically. he's a prisoner in his own home. and i think -- >> whatever happens to him, let's be straightforward about george zimmerman. i've spoken a lot to his brother robert, who has done a great job defending his brother. he is clearly deeply stressed george zimmerman. i by that's what's behind all of this. but more importantly, this guy's life is ruined, whatever happens. if he comes out tomorrow, for the rest of his life he'll be fearing -- >> he's another casey anthony. >> he is. but i don't think he did it for the tactical reason so he looks out of shape and can't fight.
i think he is just suffering in ways that maybe we can't imagine. >> and the jury saw the videos, too. >> and on the stress and suffering point, i think that trayvon martin would love if he could feel stress. >> no question, no question. i'm not trying to minimize how tragic the situation is. but i don't think it was part of the strategy. >> let me go around the panel now, because i want to get your verdicts. what do you think is going to come back? >> i just have no idea. i'm always dubious about -- >> what do you think is the fair result? >> i mean, from what i've seen, it depends on how they take zimmerman's -- he didn't testify, but his statements that are in part of the evidence, right? >> what do you personally think? >> i believe that it is hard to buy his account of what happened, particularly and most importantly -- >> give me a verdict. >> i think you may end up with manslaughter. i'm not sure. i'm very hesitant to predict but maybe manslaughter. >> let's take a short break and come back and get the other four verdicts after this short break.
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back now. with my guests and studio audience, very quickly, your verdict. >> i think it's going to be manslaughter, and i think it will come early next week. >> i think legally, it's an acquittal. but emotionally the jury may give manslaughter as a compromised verdict. >> intentional conduct of zimmerman is there. >> if i were a juror, i would say not guilty based on what i seen. but a compromised verdict, probably manslaughter. >> well, it's going to be a fascinating week, no matter what happens. could be tomorrow, sunday, we
have no idea. let's just lay our cards on the table. we don't know what is in that jury's mind. it's been a very fascinating debate. all of america is debating this, because it's about race. it's about guns. it's about culture. it's about american life, the right to self-defend, all of those things have collided into this, and the verdict, whatever it is, will be extremely contentious. thank you all on my panel, to my audience for joining me tonight. and we'll have the zimmerman verdict live on cnn the moment that we get it. you'll see it on cnn all through the weekend. there will be live updates and deliberation and debate. anderson cooper cnn special "self-defense or murder, the george zimmerman trial" starts right now. the arguments in, the deliberations begin. good evening, everyone. welcome to another special