tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN July 13, 2013 12:00am-1:01am PDT
ran out of time for the ridiculist. self-defense murder, the george zimmerman trial at 10:00. piers morgan starts right now. this is "piers morgan live." welcome to the viewers in the united states and around the world. right now the six women deciding the fate of george zimmerman are back in the hotel and we can only imagine what is going through their minds. that he deliberated for three hours and 33 minutes. the jury will return at 9:00 a.m. to begin deliberating again for the trial that is gripping america. will they find george zimmerman guilty or not guilty of murdering trayvon martin and could they return for a manslaughter conviction or acquit him of all charges? they asked for 200 exhibits and have testimony to pour over. a fierily closing argument from the defense and an equally rebuttal from the prosecution. >> do we think he might have acted in self-defense? not convinced, not a concern, that he may just have act in self-defense?
if you reach that conclusion, you get to stop. you really do. why? because self-defense is a defense to everything. >> this isn't a complicated case. it's a common sense case and it's not a case about self-defense but denial, george zimmerman. incredible lineup of guests for me tonight. a studio audience with opinions you'll want to hear. we'll get to them in a moment. martin salve vague outside the courthouse in sanford, florida. martin this is it now. the jury is out. they spent three and a bit hours deliberating today and asked for some documents. tell me about significance of that.
>> well, they did. the jury is allowed to ask questions and in this particular case after their deliberation, an hour and a half or so they said they had one and that of course is the window into what may be going on in the deliberation room. they asked for was specifically a list of all the exhibits they wanted them broken down by number and description. that caught a lot of people's attention because it was like oh, maybe this could be awhile. they seem to have a lot they wish to review. >> they were also be aware there were lots of people watching all over america, all around the world and they will want to take their time. everyone is aware of the o.j. simpson jury factor where it was felt they raced and wanted to do it properly? >> they do. keep in mind they have been shielded from the way this trial has grown. they knew, of course, somewhat about the story, but they have not known how significantly the american are glued to the television sets and watching it.
they know it's important. it matters. there is one life lost and one life that remains on the line. john guy summed it up. he took for the prosecution that self-defense argument that the defense has used and turned it on it's ear. listen to this. >> started at the 711 where that child had every right to be where he was. that child had every right to do what he was doing, walking home. that child had every right to be afraid of a strange man following him first in his car and then on foot. and did that child not have the right to defend himself from that strange man?
>> powerful point. in other words, didn't trayvon have the right of self-defense? it just wasn't one way for george zimmerman. >> right, and also very powerful system, of course, back from the defense, mark o'mara, in particular. being pretty calm most of the time but quite animated, too. tell me about his performance today. >> one of the things he's worried about is not just second-degree murder but there could be another charge of manslaughter and it's possible the jury could say that's the compromise and not going to be murder but we know someone has died, maybe this is a compromised verdict and he is very much opposed to that. he worries of sympathy. here is how he explained it. >> it is a tragedy truly, but you can't allow sympathy to feed in to it.
when i say that to you, you should sit back and raise your hand and go are you nuts? how dare you tell me to leave sympathy out of my life and all of my emotions. how dare you? i don't do that ever in my life. welcome to a criminal courtroom because unfortunately, you have to be better than your presumptions. you have to be better than what you do in every day life, better, at least different, at least unique. >> and it is a very unique challenge that those jurors now face. their first day is over. they will begin tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m., piers. >> martin savidge thank you very much indeed. outside the courthouse in sanford is benjamin crump. thanks for joining me again. what do you make out jury so far out three and a bit hours asking for a lot of documentation, clearly prepared to go through a lot of evidence, it would seem?
>> well, piers, what i think is going on is they are looking the evidence and we've always believed if they looked at the evidence, that they will hold george zimmerman accountable for killing an unarmed teenager. we've always said there is overwhelming evidence to hold him accountable for killing trayvon because he got out of his car, and he profiled and pursued and chased an unarmed teenage kid. >> now one of the more dramatic moments today is when mark o'mara showed a picture of trayvon martin alive and then held up his autopsy photograph. let's listen to what happened there. >> two months, three months before trayvon martin passed away, that's what he looked like. he lost half his blood. we know that, so on that picture that we have of him on the medical examiner's table, yeah, he does look amaceuated but here
is him three months before that night. it's in evidence. take a look at it because this is the person and this is the person who george zimmerman encountered that night. >> what did you make of that ben crump? because it was clearly trying to create an impression to the jury that trayvon martin wasn't just a kid, he was a quite strapping teenager? >> what is interesting about that, piers, it was extremely emotional, especially for trayvon's mother. it was that point she became very emotional and actually had to excuse herself from the courtroom. you know, mark o'mara said in his closing summation that you should not use presumptions to convict the innocent when referring to his client george zimmerman, but isn't that
exactly what george zimmerman did that night when he profiled and made assumptions about trayvon martin and wrong and unfortunately trayvon had to pay with his life? >> there was a moment mark o'mara turned his attention to you personally. this was an interview with martin savidge i spoke to earlier. this is a clip in that interview where he talks about you. >> do you think george zimmerman would have even been charged had ben crump not been pulled into this? >> no, ben crump or someone like him because had ben crump not gotten involved in the case, maybe for some good reasons to begin with. if he believed there was something here swept under the rug, get on into it. i'm very okay with that. >> but you didn't quite say it that way. you made it sound like if it wasn't for ben crump, george zimmerman would be free and we wouldn't be in a trial. >> that the correc i think it was a made-up story for purposes that had nothing to
do with george zimmerman and they victimized him and complain about trayvon martin being victimized, george zimmerman was victimized to smear him and call him a racist and murderer when he wasn't. >> ben crump, your reaction to that? >> well, piers, you know, they seem to forget that trayvon martin was a dead unarmed kid on the ground who his client profiled, followed, pursued, and shot in the heart. the only thing that brought us into the matter is when they told trayvon's father that they were not going to arrest the killer of his unarmed son, who only had a bag of skittles and a can of iced tea walking home from the 711 doing everything he legally had the right to do. so what do you tell parents like
tracy and sabrina whose child only was trying to walk home and was profiled for whatever reason. we don't know if george zimmerman was a racist or not but he profiled trayvon martin for some reason and got out of that car with a .9 millimeter gun and pursued him. if we would not have gotten involved as tracy martin told me when i first talked to him, they said they will not do anything about it, and i didn't believe that, piers. i did not believe that as a lawyer. i said hold on. let me make sure i get the facts right because i know that they would arrest certain people on hypothesis. they had evidence of a kid dead, confessed killer and they weren't going to arrest him. there is something wrong with that. that's why so many people signed those petitions, over 2 million people that said you can't kill an unarmed kid and not be arrested. >> ben crump, the jury out now so you can speak relatively
freely in that sense, what do you think is the most likely verdict? many people think that the case, the second-degree murder hasn't quite been met by the state but there's a pretty compelling argument for manslaughter conviction. do you agree with that? >> i'll say it like this. i'll quote prosecutor john guy today, who, i think he said -- i have said this previously. if trayvon martin was in the car and profiled and followed and pursued george zimmerman and killed him, what would the verdict be? >> ben crump, always good to talk to you. thank you very much indeed for joining me. i want to bring in my special guest tonight. jeffrey toobin and judge glenda
hatchet, host of the judge hatchet show and alex and host of judge alex and jane and marc lamont hill. welcome to you-all. what a stellar panel i must say. jeffrey toobin, let me start with you. when you hear ben crump talk like that, it's very hard to see how this jury can basically say to george zimmerman, i think off you go? >> i don't know. i think this jump will do exactly what they think is right. you know, one of the things you don't realize about a sequestered jury is that they really are sequestered is say i had no idea the whole country was following this. i think the initial sign we get is they will be very ma tick laos, asking for a list of evidence, suggest they will look at the evidence with a considerably amount of care. they will let the chips fall where they may and i don't think they are going to be focused on the public reaction. i think they will be focused, as they should be, on the evidence. >> marc lamont hill, do you agree with that? >> yeah, i think they will be
focused on facts and biases and interpretations and their emotions will weigh in on it. >> six women, five of them mothers some of the stuff today from rebuttal directly aimed at that fact that they are all female, many of them are mothers. this is a 17-year-old boy, you know, walk home to his family who was unarmed and got shot dead. just on -- forget evidence for a moment. just any human level, isn't that going to be incredibly powerful with an all-female mother-related jury. >> powerful, compelling but ultimately may not be persuasive. if they lock at the evidence and decide that the defense has done an amazing job for the last two weeks of showing how would you feel at night if they saw trayvon? as such, those same emotions could play out the other way. >> judge alex, no one knows florida law better than you.
we've established that. what do you think? >> i take issues with one of the points mr. crump made. around the time trayvon's incident happened, shortly before that there was an exact opposi case a black male who shot three white males and his friend and killed him. police did not arrest him because he claimed stand your ground. he was attacked and defended himself. the next few months they investigated and realized his defense didn't hold water and turned around and arrested him. the reason the police have to follow that tact is because they can only arrest you if they have probable cause and if they show up and there are no witnesses and you claim self-defense and have nothing to defeat it, if they arrest you, they are facing potential civil liability. >> judge hatchet, the idea that people in america, the great super power of the world can
wonder around, gunning people down and not face arrest because they were acting in self-defense or standing their ground is louis chris. >> one of the things that come from this very tragic situation and regardless of what happens, i think we all agree there is a tragedy this 17-year-old lost his life. >> absolutely. >> i don't think there is any, any dispute on that. but i will tell you, piers, i think that one of the best things that will happen out of this is that there will be a discussion now about stand your ground because we haven't heard the last of this. i mean, we got another case coming up in florida later where a teenager was killed, and i think that we have to really get very serious about where we are because this can go far further than any of us could ever anticipate in this country. >> jane wine trap do you agree
with that. >> gun control and zero happened in sandy hook and aurora, why should i have confidence anything will change? >> stand your ground is a terrible law. i think it's -- >> it's a license to kill people. >> i think it's an awful law. [ applause ] >> i think at the same time when we look at this case, that the jury is out on, we have to focus on the evidence. and as hard as it is, mark o'mara, as i told you the other night, the judge will read the jury instruction that sympathy does not belong in the courtroom. your verdict must be based on the evidence alone because not to do so would be a travesty of justice. >> take a short break. i want to have a look at the zimmerman jurors. ask how an all-female jury could change the dynamic in that jury room. it must have an effect. [ applause ] oh, he's a fighter alright.
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in his heart gets out of his car with a loaded gun and follows a child, a stranger in the dark, and shoots him through his heart? >> he's not guilty of anything but protecting his own life. >> to very different cases for the jurors to consider but whose side will they take? back with me my guests and joining me is my guest. >> six women, five mothers, five white mothers, women, what difference do you think that will make to the dynamic in the jury room, if anything? >> if you look at your show over the past couple weeks and you have much of a different with multiple women on, you can see how in disagreement they can get.
>> i'm glad you said that. >> [ laughter ] >> i was actually involved on one of those panels. >> i know you were, yeah. no man can get away with saying. i'm sure that's true. i'm also sure, although they won't be aware of the huge attention the trial is getting on television, they will be aware, i'm sure, before that this was potentially going to be a big story, wouldn't they? >> of course, they are. let me give you an example. what a sequestered jury gets as a newspaper in the morning, looks something like this. >> right. you know it's on the front page. >> the whole paper looks like that. so definitely they know it's a big story. many of them knew a lot about the case before they were selected as jurors. >> jeffrey toobin, we were discussing if anything would change. you made an interesting point about that.
>> in 196 robert f. kennedy, martin luther king are assassinated. the impact result is the gun action of 1968. that's how we responded. now for a big part of the country with terrible acts of gun violence, virginia tech, the answer is more guns, guns in schools, guns on the street and that's -- you know, we here on west 58th street, which is not the whole country. >> yeah. >> have to recognize a lot -- >> a lot of people said to me, what would have stopped this is trayvon martin had a gun, too. judge hatchet, when i hear that i disspare for america. because i think how can that possibly be the way you resolve the situation? you don't arm everybody else, do you? >> no, my heart bleeds over this situation, but i did have an interesting question today.
someone said to me, well, judge, why didn't george just pull his gun and say i'm the neighborhood watch, stay where you are until the police gets here. i mean, he's the one who has the gun. why didn't he do that? >> self-defense. >> that would be an aggravated assault. i suspect and this is just pure suspicion. i suspect he did pull the gun. >> i do, too. >> i think that gun is out and it's hard to get it out but he never would admit that. he would have in legal right to pull a gun on somebody committing a crime. >> you're right. >> i thought it was interesting with the use of force expert, the prosecution was cross examining him said if zimmerman is being straddled by trayvon martin, how easy would it be for him to get the gun out of his waist belt? >> i think they wanted to make the point he did that anyway,
that he approached him with the gun and that trayvon was defending himself in response. >> jeff, the point you were going to make? >> the defense is that he got out of the car and then he was just assaulted. it's not that -- i mean, obviously i don't know what happened but we should be clear that his defense is not that he chased him down, is that he got out of the car and trayvon was on him. >> judge alex, you've presided over these kind of cases before. >> unfortunately. >> did you find george zimmerman not true testimony he gave but through all the statements that we heard, did you find him a convincing charter to listen to? did you believe his story? >> i actually did. my suspicion about him possibly pulling out the gun and that's all it is, is because it explains a lot of things like why trayvon might jump him if he thinks this crazy cracker is pulling a gun and might be in danger and explains the difficulty of getting a gun out when somebody is on top of you. for him to have made it up, he made it up immediately after the
shooting, within seconds of a witness coming out from the apartment. he would have to be brilliant to know he doesn't know who watched. he doesn't know if anybody videotaped and what forensic evidence he'll find on the floor and the story he told does coincide with the physical evidence in almost every material way. >> i've seen enough of george zimmerman to know he's not brilliant. i think -- honestly. [ applause ] >> i think george zimmerman believes the story he's telling and i believe this is complex. i think we wanted a flat, simple, easy story which is this crazy racist saw a black kid and wanted to go on a killing spree. >> i agree. >> i think he said a young, black man but i don't think he said there is a black kid, i want to go kill him. that's what i think it's messy. you see this big, scary black guy and don't approach him and pull your gun first. >> he's taught as neighborhood watch -- >> he's watching him run from him.
he's watching him pull the hood up. everything is building towards this guy is up to no good. >> yeah, he had the gun out. >> don't forget, george zimmer mean's nose is broken. the only injuries are on george zimmerman. >> but his injuries are not that bad. >> they are not that good. >> we don't actually even know for a fact his nose was broken. he never had an x-ray -- >> piers, piers, we know -- >> why -- >> fractured. >> we were portrayed a picture of a guy who had to -- >> that's not the law. the law danger of great bodily harm or death. >> i don't -- >> but a bang on the nose and a few scratches on your head, does that qualify -- >> looking at the perspective of the fact that as a neighborhood watch commander, he is taught to observe, report and be a good witness. >> the only thing that applies
to is if you go ahead and have him kicked off the neighborhood watch. they spent a lot of time talking about the guidelines for neighborhood watch. those aren't the elements of a crime. >> let's take a short break -- >> if they are not an element of a crime but shows intent. if he's been taught this, then to leave the car is beyond his training and you got to wonder, if those jurors are thinking what happened that he actually left that car to go after trayvon? >> okay. let take a short break. when we come back, the defense used an expert and he's in the audience tonight. we'll talk to him after the break about his testimony and what he thinks the verdict will be.
dennis ruth said there is no other option for the defendant, he had that. for the defendant he said there wasn't another option but consider this, this is so important when you consider his opinion. the only evidence he had, the only evidence he had about what was happening at the time the shot was fired was from who? >> question the defense witness dennis root and senior contributor in the new york times and john kelly and if you want to join in, just tweet me at piers morgan. lots of tweets coming in with lots of opinions.
dennis root, you gave this testimony which you basically imply the only course of action that was left open to george zimmerman was to take out his gun and shoot trayvon martin. why did you believe that so strongly? >> you take into consideration everything you learn about an individual. to say there are additional options available to a person is taking into consideration whether they have fighting skills, any other things. screaming for help was an option which he utilized if you believe he was the one screaming on the recording. to be asked what other options there are and the gentleman says i have other options, i have 22 years of training behind me. mr. zimmerman did not. to say what options he had -- >> he's an older guy, a bigger guy. it a fight, there are no weapons other than his gun. he's up against a 17-year-old kid who is a bit -- doesn't know what is going on. he's walking home. surely there is another option than pulling out a gun and shooting him dead. >> everybody makes the presumption it's just a
17-year-old kid walking home. >> that's what he was. >> none of us, including myself know how the altercation began and how it was. it's what took place in george zimmerman's mind when he discharged the weapon and if he perceived he was in danger of great bodily harm or death he's justified under law to discharge a firearm. >> this cuts to the quick of the trial that so many people feel must have been another option than just shooting this boy dead. >> right, and to your point, i mean, no one knows but trayvon and george zimmerman whether or not george zimmerman exposed a weapon prior to the encounter and whether or not the struggle may, in fact, all have been over a weapon because what the prosecution was trying to do all day today and part of yesterday was to say it is virtually impossible to retrieve the weapon while you're on the
ground. so how is it that the weapon gets drawn? i think that become as crucial point. i thought the prosecution would raise that much earlier. i thought that was a crucial idea, which is how do you get the gun out behind your back, move it over his legs, up to his chest and fire that weapon? if, in fact, the gun is out prior to the engagement of the physical altercation, then the person defending themselves against great bodily harm or death switches from trayvon martin to -- from george zimmerman to trayvon martin and the only person who has testified in this entire case as to whether or not that gun stayed holstered the entire time has been the man who is charged with the murder -- >> right -- >> of trayvon martin. >> john kelly, what do you think of that? >> going to what zimmerman's options are. he could have stayed in the car, left the gun in the car,
followed 30 feet behind him. we don't know how the confrontation started. we assume trayvon through a bunch. that could have been a head butt when they collided. got brought up, put in his chest, fired cleanly one shot during that struggle if he was yelling for help. >> judge alex -- >> there were a lot of things in george zimmerman's version i disagree with. i think the gun was out. he was not looking at a street sign.
he was following to see and tell the cops where he was -- >> but he didn't intend to shoot trayvon martin. >> someone that intends to shoot doesn't call to report the progress. what is relevant is when he gets on the ground unless the prosecution shows he was the aggressor and punched trayvon and no injuries to document that. what is relevant is when he's on the ground, does he have another option to get out? the prosecution -- >> the prosecution's hands are tied -- >> no evidence to show otherwise. >> do you believe the gun is out, then that makes you the aggressor because you have the most -- you have the most force. >> but -- >> but the judge's. >> what i believe is my speculation -- >> right. >> what i show a jury is proof -- >> judge hatchet? >> that's the problem. that's the problem. the state has the burden of proving -- >> i agree with that. >> beyond a reasonable doubt. i believe he would have never gotten out of the car if he didn't have the gun. >> that's true. >> he would have never gotten out of the car. let's be real about this. >> let me go to damon jackson. ask your question. >> yes, well the fact is that the only reason that there was an arrest and the only reason
there was a trial is due to a response from the public outcry, national out cry. >> that's true. >> okay. i wonder if the roles were reversed, whether or not we would be sitting here having this type of discussion totally -- >> what do you think? >> i believe zimmerman is guilty. >> but if the roles were reversed, if trayvon had shot dead george zimmerman -- >> i don't think there would have been the need for a public outcry, number one, i think trayvon would have been arrested right off the bat and i believe he would have been found guilty right off the bat. [ applause ] >> i think that to me is the
most crucial point about what the public outcry was here. this case is not now nor has it ever been about an extraordinary death. people are shocked to death, unfortunately, in america every day. this was about an extraordinary inequity of the application of the law and the misapplication of the presumption of innocence, that who was -- was worthy to be given the presumption of innocence in this case? the man standing over the dead kid with the candy, or the kid. >> right. >> on the ground. >> what we saw was that the man standing over the dead body, was allowed to walk into a police station, give a statement. >> and go home. >> not even take toxicology tests, nothing and walk out of there and go home and sleep in his bed. >> wow. >> that's what outraged people. >> yes, that is true. [ applause ] >> let's take another break and come back and we'll hear more audience questions on this explosive case. . [ applause ] so... [ gasps ] these are sandra's "homemade"
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scary african americans intruding my home, the picture is building up is zimmerman was right to look at a young black teenager and think trouble. >> until this moment, race has been shot through the entire ordeal. they want us to pretend race doesn't matter and at the same time smuggle in race through other means.
they are smuggling race saying look at trayvon -- >> that takes me to the second question. this one is from daniel. daniel? >> thanks. i'm around the same age as trayvon, and would this case be different if it was me that night instead of him? >> see, this is a great question -- >> great question. >> can i answer it? >> no, you had your chance. john kelly, you can answer. if trayvon had been that young man, daniel, would we be even debating this here? >> we might be debating parts of it. i think there would have been an arrest much more quickly at that point. piers, the bottom line is this whole thing boils down to the stand your ground rule where you have a man who can take a concealed gun, initiate a confrontation and then if he starts to lose, can shoot his opponent dead. >> in the end, they didn't actually use stand your ground as their defense, although they could have. the self-defense is almost the same thing and it seems to me -- judge alex, i keep coming back to this, it seems extraordinary that you can shoot an unarmed teenager dead and you don't even get arrested that night. >> as you pointed out, this is not a stand your ground case, and i'm against stand your
perception of the individual. if you got up in the middle of the night and shot somebody coming through the window of your home and it turned out to be a 17 neighbor who your daughter invited over, you would not be prosecuted. unarmed, a 17-year-old, you weren't injured because you're perception matters. when was reasonable? were you afraid? was george afraid and was his fear reasonable? >> you were not in zimmerman's with priceline express deals, you can get a fabulous hotel without bidding. think of the rubles you'll save. with one touch, fun in the sun. i like fun. well, that went exactly as i planned.. really? now save up to 60% during summer hotel sale. use code "summer" on priceline's.
tomorrow morning, the jury returns to deliberate george zimmerman's fate. martin savidge is live with an update. martin, very lively debate tonight. and what is crystal clear to me is that many, many people just wish they had more hard facts to answer so many of these unanswered questions. it would make it all so much easier, wouldn't it? >> reporter: yeah, it would. especially for i guess those six jurors. i am glad to see this debate, because many journalists feared that this was not a trial that would gain the kind of attention that others have. but of course, there are serious issues here to be debated as a nation, so it is rewarding, albeit a tragic story that so many people have followed it in this country. tomorrow morning, 9:00 a.m. the
and then they go off to deliberate more. we have been told once it gets into saturday, if there's a verdict, there will be a one hour heads up so everyone can get into the position, including the media, and report it. >> george zimmerman gained 120 pounds in only 16 months. with this huge devastating weight gain, do you think it had any affect on the trial or the jury's perception of george zimmerman? >> he is a completely different looking man. do you think it was a deliberate strategy? >> i don't think so. >> to say, how could this guy so
out of shape ever win a fight? >> i really don't think so, piers. this is a man who is stressed. i think his life has changed radically. he's a prisoner in his own home. and i think -- >> whatever happens to him, let's be straightforward about george zimmerman. i've spoken a lot to his brother robert, who has done a great job defending his brother. he is clearly deeply stressed george zimmerman. but more importantly, this guy's life is ruined, whatever happens. if he comes out tomorrow, for the rest of his life he'll be fearing -- >> he's another casey anthony. >> he is. but i don't think he did it for the tactical reason so he looks out of shape and can't fight. i think he is just suffering in ways that maybe we can't imagine. >> and on the stress and
say not guilty based on what i seen. but probably manslaughter. >> it's going to be a fascinating week. we have no idea. let's just lay our cards on the table. we don't know what is in that jury's mind. it's been a very fascinating debate. all of america is debating this, because it's about race. it's about guns. it's about culture. it's about american life, the right to self-defend, all of those things have collided into this, and the verdict, whatever it is, will be extremely contentious. thank you all on my panel, to my audience for joining me tonight. and we'll have the zimmerman verdict live on cnn the moment that we get it. you'll see it on cnn all through the weekend. there will be deliberation and debate. anderson cooper cnn special "self-defense or murder, the george zimmerman trial" starts right now.