tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN December 5, 2013 5:00pm-6:01pm PST
and that a big heart is better than a closed mind and that life's real victories must be shared. he dedicated his life to a singular cause. a quest to free the black population of his homeland, and accomplishing that he freed south africa's white population and freed an entire nation and in freeing a nation, he freed the entire world. that's it for me. that's it for me. "ac 360" starts now. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com thanks, good evening everyone. we're devoting this hour to nelson mandela. very few people transformed their country. the crowd outside his house speak to that. ♪ ♪ >> sad news, there is a sense of celebration how far nelson mandela brought south africa and brought us all and opened our eyes to better angels to justice
over injustice and compassion in the face of cruelty and sometimes in an unforgiving world to forgiveness. >> this is the moment of our deepest sorrow. our nation has lost his greatest son, yet, what made nelson mandela great was precisely what made him human. we saw in him what we seek in ourselves. >> south africa's president announcing the death a short time later, president obama paid a deeply personal tribute. >> we've lost one of the most influential, courageous and profoundly good human beings
that any of us will share time with on this earth. he no longer belongs to us. he belongs to the ages. through his fierce dignity and unbending will to sacrifice his own freedom for the freedom of others, he transformed south africa and moved all of us. his journey from a prisoner to a president embodied the promise that human beings and countries can change for the better. his commitment to transfer power and reconcile with those who jailed him set an example that all humanity should aspire to, whether in the lives of nations or our own personal lives. the day he was released from prison gave me a sense of what human beings can do when they are guided by hopes and not fears. and like so many around the globe, i cannot fully imagine my own life without the example
that nelson mandela set. >> throughout the hour tonight and in our 10:00 hour tonight we'll talk to people that follow his journey and some who were privileged enough to share it. >> reporter: nelson mandela struggled for freedom, defined his life. he was born in the remote hills of south africa's eastern cape. he was given the name that meant troublemaker. he was only given the name nelson by a schoolteacher later on. after moving to johannesburg and studying law, mandela's trouble making politics began and as a boxer he became adapt to picking fights and sparring with authorities that increased its oppression against the black population. it was then mandela made the crucial decision to take up an armed struggle launching the armed wing. he was militant and a fire
brand, defined burning his passbook, a document the authorities use to control the movement of south africa's black population. >> the africans require want to franchise on the basis of one man, one vote. they want political independence. >> reporter: that simple demand and the methods he took to fight for come mock see he and others tried for treegen and sabotage, acts punishment by day. he got life in prison anyway. one of the most countries and isolated prisons. another political prisoner remembers the first time he saw mandela in the prison yard. >> i could see from the way he walked and from his conduct that he was a man already stamping his authority on prison regime. >> reporter: mandela was
released 27 years later. >> i have spoken about freedom in my lifetime. your commitment and your discipline has released me to stand before you today. >> reporter: and his lack of bitterness towards the authorities helped him to lead one of the most remarkable political transitions of the 20th century. the trained lawyer and lifelong rebel out maneuvers the leaders, and he steered south africa's peaceful transition to democracy. he won a noble peace price together with his former enemy fw declark. >> to devote myself to the well being of the republican. >> reporter: and he became south africa's first black president in 1994.
>> so help me god. >> what marksman dell -- his ca as president after five years he stepped down. there have been very few presidents in africa who have ever given up willingly. >> don't call me. i'll call you. [ laughter ] >> reporter: his retirement years were busy with fundraising for charities close to his heart. he celebrated his 90th birthday with much fanfare and told cnn looking back, he wouldn't do anything differently. >> i don't regret it because the things that pleased my soul. >> reporter: those who loved and respected him look to his legacy. >> and if we want to learn from him, learn that life is not made
up of straight victories. it's made up of mistakes, zigzags, stumbling, picking yourself up, dusting off the dirt, treating the bruise, and walking again forward and that's what mandela is. >> reporter: cnn johannesburg. >> extraordinary man and leader. now as south africa enters an extended period of mourning and a funeral, global figures are registering their loss from former president bill clinton. he said the world lost one of the most important leaders and one of the finest human beings. we'll remember him of a man of grace and compassion for abandoning bitterness and embracing adversaries was not just a political strategy a way of life. our thoughts and prayers go out to graca and his family and the
people of south of ka. one of the great forces for freedom and equality. he's a good man and will be missed and his contributions will live on forever. colin powell states it simply, a great man left us today and went to his reward. nelson den dell la, madiba inspired the world. i was privileged to know him. with us richard strangle, former time managing editor and author of "mandela's way, lessons of life and courage." we talked about what happens now in terms of the funeral. there is a whole timeline now that will play out. >> there is, and it's going to take ten days. we understand that the state funeral will be on saturday or sunday, if you calculate it,
depending on how this plays out. so what are we going to see? we're going to see a state funeral in the hills of his ancestor lands, in the area he grew up in. he really wanted to be buried in those hills. this is going to be next weekend. until then in the next few days, nelson mandela's body will be taken to a mortuariry, a hospital, a military hospital where he'll be enbombed. there will be a memorial service here in johannesburg, the same stadium where the world cup final was played and that will be like a public memorial service. many people will be encouraged to come pay respects. it's unclear if his coffin will be there. i know some world leaders are being encouraged to attend -- >> obviously, we just lost robin. rick, it was interesting, she
mentioned he's going to be returned to the place of his birth, the place of his childhood. it's interesting because that's a place he left as a young man, not only to go to school but left behind in many ways. he realized as a young mannerly on that the white regime used ethnic divisions between black south africans to divide them and to keep them apart and it was mandela who began to think of himself not just as a hosa but as an african and that sense of connection was really instrumental in his evolution as a leader. >> yes, and anderson, it's a very good point and people don't realize it because on one hand he was a revolutionary, socialest, maybe communist and traditionalest. i spent many days with him outside kunu where he grew up and he felt so attached to the land. he felt so attached to traditional leadership. even when he was in robin island and his conrads were saying, we
need to get rid of those traditional leaders, we can't make any deals with him. he said no, you don't understand that. the people have rev rans for that. it has real meaning for black south africans. so yes, he transcended that on the one hand. but he also em braszed it on the other and just as he made out reaches to white south africans, he made out reaches to the black african experience, the zulus, triable leaders and that made him such a giant, really. >> that evolution is fascinating to me, just in rereading his auto buy ogden fiographybiograp. he said he grew up with hatred towards white people and it should be towards racism in the system in place, not to white people in particular and it wasn't until later on he began to see that, kind of, there could be unity among indians in south africa and whites and
others. >> and many of them joined the fight. as he grew up in kunu he was an aristacrat. his baring, everybody talks about how he stamped his authority wherever he went. even in prison, he was the authority. the prison guards came to respect him, and his college roommate i was going to say -- his prison roommate, has said that this is a man who showed by the force of his own dignity how you could force even the enemy, even the ad ver scary to respect you. that's what nelson mandela did. >> that's the incredible thing, 27 years in prison to have your life taken from you for 27 years and not have hate in your heart when you get out. that was -- i remember being there in '92, '93s, '94, so many africans said there is going to be a blood bath and red
constituti -- retribution. they did not have that. >> he did, anderson. what i would say and always say about him, people think of him as a saint but he was a pragmatic hard-headed politician. that created the nelson mandela we know now. he'll be the first to tell you, the man that walked into prison in 1960 was a different man. we wouldn't recognize him. he was hot headed, i'm passionened. prison steeled him and all those hours and hours of interviews that we did, i used to always annoy him because i would say, what was different about the man who walked out of prison than the man who walked in? and one day, finally, you me, he said to me, i came out mature. very rare. >> there is a beautiful illustration of that because during the trials or in the early '60s, he was quoted saying
to his colleagues, maybe we should reconsider how we're fighting this struggle because it was mostly peaceful in the beginning and this idea should it become more combative, more violent? when we came out of prison, quoted and said to the people now throw away your guns and knives and gather them up and throw them into the sea. so he did go through this amazing transformation. >> at many times in his life, many transformations, donna brazil is squining us. donna, you met him and spent time with him. it can't be over stated. the courage that it took for him just starting out as a young man and so many others, whites, indians, black south africans to oppose this system, this system of a part tide, which at the time was entrenched. it didn't seem like they could overcome it. >> well, he used the power of persuasion. he understood as an activist, as
a lawyer that he could find it in the courts but he had to fight it in the court of public opinion. he knew he had to bring allies to the table. he had to lead not just black people but he also had to form coalitions with white people, people of conscience and nelson mandela believed that if you want to convince your enemies, you have to work with your enemies. he understood that and he brought people together at the table to achieve those goals. i was struck whenever i had an opportunity to see him. he was always joyful. he was optimistic. he really believed that he could concur the system and when he came to the united states back in 19 0 90 he said we got to continue to fight and keep the pressure on. he was a man of grace, as well. in the latter years whenever he heard from mandela, he was a man
that understood reconciliation was the call and he wanted to see people come together. >> christiane you spoke tonight and i want to play some of that because it was fascinating conversation. >> it wasn't immediate, i would say, spark between us and the many spats we had later, i always respected him, and i always liked him as a person. he impressed me tremendously. he was taller than i expect. he was a ram rot. he looked one in the eye very directly. he was a good listener. i could immediately see that he had an analytical approach to discussions, which i liked very much. this attitude of understanding
the concern of yourself and making efforts to accommodate those concerns. this he did in a marvelous way. his biggest legacy was the emphasis on reconciliation. his emphasis of what he used to say, south africa is there for all its people, black, white and all south africans should tefee at home. he was a great unifier and a very, very special man in this regard. >> incredible he was able to bring down the subpoena for parti. >> yes, with fw clerk. there wouldn't happen if there wasn't a partner and other partners of mandela said, we have to get inside the head of the enemy, think like the white man and speak the language. we have to know who they are. they say it was a miracle they managed to pull off the '94
election because and you eluded to it, there was a lot of opposition from the freedom -- >> right, the zulu. >> and the whites, the awb and there was a big, big problem that could have exploded into -- >> a lot of people forgot that -- >> yeah, there was who ran ifpd and shootouts and gunfights. i remember going to a lot of anc funerals and ifc funerals -- >> very touch and go. >> given that election -- >> even in the month before, two months before i remember a huge gunfight in johannesburg. >> one of the things, anderson, we walked together on a long walk of freedom that ended at his inauguration. he wanted to do another book not so much from that period to the presidency but how close south africa came to a civil war. i have to say, i don't want to -- the smirks, the reputation of mr. declerk and formed a partnership and couldn't have
done it without each other. mandela in conversations with me for "a long walk to freedom" did feel betrayed during the creation of the constitution and that famous scene when they were writing the constitution he chewed out declerk. >> and declerk knows that. he said we have our spots. we'll take a break quick. robin, christiane, rick, donna, stay with us. tweet about your thoughts on mandela and his massing and legacy. use hash tag ac 36 0. charty and friendship. i'll speak with mandela's group that became friends. i'll share his memories next. ♪
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there is mr. monodell la, mr. nelson mandela, a freeman taking his first steps into a new south africa. >> extraordinary moment, nelson mandela freed after 27 years in captivity. four years later, the first black president in south africa stepping down after five years. his retirement was busy working for world rights, world peace and working for aids and charity. richard branson joins me. richard, you knew nelson mandela over the course of many years and worked on nonprofits together. his sense of compassion to me is something i always found extraordinary, his ability to not have hate in his heart for those who oppressed not on him but generations of black south africans. >> it was absolutely remarkable, and i think something that other
nations should learn by. i mean, 27 years in prison, not just himself but hundreds of black activists, many people like steven b. comb, you know, killed horribly and decide to forgive those people, and they set up truth and reconciliation courts where those people have to come to apologize to the relatives of those people that they might have committed dreadful crimes to and in the process they managed to enable africa, south africa in particular to heal the wounds, avoid a civil war and south africa is now one of the great nations in this world, and if it hadn't been for that act of forgiveness, i don't think that would have been possible. >> i worked there a lot in '92, '93, '94.
i never talked to him directly but had an ora. you knew him. >> he had a remarkable sense of humor, a twinkle in his eye. he would burst into singing and dancing. yet, and yet at the same time, you know, there was the serious side to him. i mean, you know, he set up a wonderful organization called the elders and in order for his legacy to live on, he took the time and trouble appointing six wonderful men and women he felt had great global moral authority, and he asked them, you know, to continue his legacy after he had gone. and, you know, with the lelders, he wants to see them go out and try to resolve conflicts and they have already been doing that in his name over the last three or four years. >> that's something you approached him about early on,
this idea of the elders, this global humanitarian group. in terms of his legacy, obviously, it is in the modern state of south africa, and again, i just keep coming back to his willingness not to meet force with hatred, his willingness, you know, even to really embrace the africaners who had for generations oppressed the black south africans and a number of different groups in south africa. what do you think it was that allowed him to do that? >> i think it was the time he had in prison to think, to read and to realize that, you know, to be a great statesmen and, you know, maybe the greatest statesmen on earth, you had to do extraordinary things. you had to take extraordinary
risks and he learned the importance of forgiveness, and as a result, you know, the most extreme right-wing africans, you know, were brought into the fold and he created one nation, and one -- you know, one wonderful nation of black people, white people, gray people, brown people, also sorts of people, you know, just being prior to the africans and south africans. >> and creating a constitution the likes of which africa has certainly never seen, really the world has never seen. richard branson appreciate you talking. >> joining me now robin in jo n johannesburg and christian amanpour and donna brazil and also joining us now is harvard law professor ogletree,
professor ogle tree. we haven't heard from you. what are your thoughts tonight, just in terms of when you heard of the passing of nelson mandela? for you is the most interesting part of his remarkable career? >> i have to tell you, anderson, when i first heard about it rs it was a combination of tears and pain because i expected him to live forever, even though he was sick and about to die. i met him when he came to boston and we honored him on several occasions. he was given an honorary degree at harvard law school. unlike most people, there are four people in the history of harvard history, june 1998 remember the day like yesterday. he was so proud to say that he was proud to receive it as the first african, that made a big difference to the crowd there in 1998. so i've written an article about him, about the public defender
system he helped set up in the 1990s and have to say this is a tragic loss but one we had to be prepared before and i said we have to figure out a way to honor his legacy every year, not here but a world-wide hero, somebody who meant a lot to a lot of people and somebody who went through a lot of persecution but we know he's the reason south africa was free. >> rick, it's interesting you did a lot of interviews with him and knew him well. nelson was not his given name. his birth name. he was given that name his first day of school as was very common under the british education system there. his real name is rolala. >> he went to a methodist school and everyone was given english names -- >> which means -- >> which means it's the branch of a tree -- shaking the branch of a tree but the meaning is
troublemaker. >> i love that. >> it's so -- >> that was his birth name, troublemaker was extraordinary. >> when i started working with him, i never, ever heard anyone call him nelson. at the same time, he wasn't president yet. i heard people use his clan name modiba. it shows his background and it's paternal and just stuck. so that's -- everybody called him modiba. >> the courage it took in the 50s, the '60s, this regime that attempted to have absolute control. it's hard i think for anybody who didn't live through those times to understand what this took to oppose and ultimately over throw this regime. >> i didn't live it either. the list of not indignities but the appalling facts of separate life were just -- you cannot
believe this happened. i mean, you saw it all, whites and blacks -- >> tremendous, tremendous courage because it was such a -- >> boss cap which is like boss ship. >> right, so every -- i mean, even you still see it today but every african person in south africa would call a white person boss and move to the side of the street or off the sidewalk when people came around but the the separated families, the separated people over generat n generations who didn't get educated, didn't see their children, wives. >> robin in johannesburg, as president, did his -- sort of did the shine, the luster cop off nelson mandela a bit as the reality of ruling, the difficulties the country faced, as president what was the perception of him within south
africa? >> i think he would have even said so himself that he wasn't the greatest administrator, a lot of the day to day running of the country during his presidency was done by his deputy. what nelson mandela's real role was, the magic, he was a symbol and understood that. he understood he had to lead this country and lead by example and i think those very small acts of kindness, the fact he often shtopped and shook peoples hands if he went to dinner for an important person, he found the cook or housekeeper and made and looked at them. there is one wonderful story he went to the doctor for dinner and went to the kitchen and said to the housekeeper in his flirty mandela way, where have you been all my life? i've been waiting for you. in this wonderful flirty thing
and she's burst into tears. no one expected him to go into the kitchen and have that familiarity that he had with everybody. and so much of it was political, the sense of charisma, this connection he tried to forge individually, literally with every south african. it was a very shrewd move. he understand stood the symbolism of it. when you were in his presence you felt that charisma. he held himself straight up. he had a regional baring, and he was often quite tactile. i know at one point, i kind of freaked out because he sort of grabbed me around the waist and hugged in. he was quite like that. he felt he needed to touch everybody and look everybody in the eye and i think when his presidency was over, people missed that. they missed that sense that he was there as this sort of walking image, this walking symbol of themselves, this mirror that he tried to reflect back into south africa.
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when he walked out of that tunnel wearing number six jersey, that white predominantly crowd started chanting his name. watch the footage. as i say, i get goose bumps. i could not believe it. how could this ever happen? and yet, he just understood fundamentally, understood that symbolic just tour of putting on the jersey and identifying with a logo, a symbol would go so much further than a speech or policy or political agenda ever. >> men deandela and the team wee
embodiment of a parti. they were a symbol of racial reconciliation and shared pride in the new south africa. a white child of the old south africa tweets this, condolences to all on the passing of our beloved father. we loved you, rest in peace. that sentiment is a far, far cry how mandela was viewed. >> reporter: it was here nelson mandela's political consciousness was awakened. an am armature and young lawye made a decision to fight the ingresingly increasing aparti state. others were tried for treegen
and sabotage. >> i'm prepared to die. >> reporter: those words read from 1964 still rest nate say as legal team from that case, george besus. >> if need be, it's an ideal for which i'm prepared to die. they are words, which i think will live forever. >> reporter: they are the last words nelson mandela will utter in public for 27 years. he got life in prison. while in prison, mandela continued to work towards freedom which seemed so far away because south africa's townships were burning, state of emergency was in effect and the parti regime never seemed stronger but he took a chance and started to secretly negotiate with the government. other former political prisoner. >> because he said it on occasion there comes a time when
a leader has to lead. >> reporter: a minister at the time and the eventual president, he remembers the encounter with the man he first considered a terrorist. >> my very first meeting with him, i didn't know what to expect and there he was standing straight up, tamer than i expected, being courteous, being of usually a man of integrity. >> reporter: in his own act of political bravery, they released mandela in 19 90. in the next four years, mandela spearheaded contusion and democracy and before south africans voted in the first democratic election, they renounced violence and their struggle. it had been a long war. >> so help me god. >> on the day he was inducted as president, he stood there on the terraces of the union buildings
and he took my hand and he took it up and he put his arm around me and we showed a unity, which i think resounded throughout south africa and across the world. >> i will count myself as a man of agent in our society. >> reporter: his presidency was marked by reconciliation. he admitted he would have liked to spent more type with his family in a rare interview with cnn on his 90th birthday. is there anything you wish you would have done differently? i spoke to your wife and grandchildren. they said perhaps you would have liked to spend more time with your family. is that something when you look back? >> i'm sure many people, that is their wish and i also have that wish, that i spend more time with my family. >> so is that a regret of yours?
>> i don't regret it because the things that i did were things that pleased my soul, so i don't regret it. >> reporter: a man who went looking back over his life, acknowledged that sacrificing his family life was for the greater good. >> thank you, thank you. my blessings. >> robin joins me again from outside mandela's home. lessons on life, love and courage and cnn political commentator and professor ogletree and the author of "mandela struggles and triumph triumphs." you've been friends with and taken pictures for 30 years. can you give us insight into their relationship and your
thoughts on his passing? >> goodness, thank you, anderson. first of all, their relationship. i think to understand the sacrifice that madiba made going to prison which is so difficult. we can put words to it and faith m 27 years but how does anyone know what that means? when you met winnie mandela and i met her in the '80s and yes encountered the incredible beauty and presence and eloquence of this woman, you understood the sacrifice that this man made when he left this woman through his commitment and i think their mutual commitment actually to struggle against the domination of a parti, i think madiba would have said at any given moment until his passing that in fact winnie and nelson were both mandelas.
>> as you said, you were working there in the early '80s, photographing, which was dangerous thing to be doing. did you know that in the end they would succeed? did you believe in the end they would succeed? >> yeah, i did. from the minute i arrived in south africa in '85, coming from our own country with racial division and our legacy of not so dissimilar in a certain way but not without the legislative system but coming from detroit, it was so interesting to arrive in south africa, what one found was in fact a country in which people of color in the majority were still effectively on their land for the most part, their culture in tact but under the shackles of a partide and you felt this minority, equally that would arrive when these three ships coming from holland were
on their way to look for tea and they got down in front of the cape of good hope and looked up and saw table mountain, i mean, i have to admit i can certainly understand why they got off that boat and never left. it's so unbelievably beautiful and they also love this country. you would feel that -- so what you felt was in fact, two groups of people with a profound love of this country that were living both in effectively as victims of this absolutely system that humanity never known the likes of. so -- but nevertheless, to your question, anderson, i always had the sense it was a question of time. and i think also the sense that nelson mandela's aspirations, his vision of a non-racist, non-sexist country which certainly has a compatible legacy in our country's dr. king and civil rights movement here,
which it's interesting there was a symbiosis between the civil rights movement and south african movement, they took a tremendous amount of inspiration from dr. king in the civil rights movement in the united states, if you think about 196 3, he went to prison in 1964. >> there is no doubt which gets me to the next question from professor ogletree, in terms of the impact that the anti parti movement around the world had and here in the united states had on the end of a paratide, how significant was it? >> it was very significant. remember, anderson, this was during the regan administration and ronald reagan opposed what we were doing and have towed issues to talk about opening up the system in south africa to end the partide. thousands of people got arrested in washington d.c. and i got a
group of lawyers together to represent them for nothing. they were released and not charged with an offense. it was a national issue, black, white, male, female, people on the left, right, everybody was involved. the only thing i regret is that there are young people who never knew nelson mandela was from south africa. they didn't realize it was a majority of africans there and didn't realize how great a patriot he was, not the question about terrorist but patriot, someone loving this country and did everything he could to make south africa the country he was and i was there when they were talking about developing a constitution and they wanted to learn what the united states had put together but they had a greater vision of what the constitution has. labor rights, individual rights, all these different rights, which are very important, and i think that's the legacy of nelson mandela, what he did to
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because our competency-based curriculum gives you skills you can apply immediately, to move your career forward. to your point "c." capella university. start your journey at capella.edu. tonight the flags of the white house are at half staff. mandela earned the respect of countless other leadings including presidents past and present. take a look. >> i have just hung up talking to nelson mandela. i reached him, i believe, it was at the home of bishop tutu and i told him that all americans were delighted after these many years in jail that he is released, that we were rejoicing at his release. i invited hip to tm to the white
and he told me he wanted to consult some of his colleagues, but that he expected he would be able to accept my invitation. >> oh, his step may be a bit slower now, but his voice still sores with conviction and vision, his eyes still burn with spirit and resolve, and his work still inspires the world. >> i mean, sometimes there are leaders who come and go. he -- his legacy will last for a long time. >> he was quite tough on you and criticized you publicly about the iraq war. >> he wasn't the only guy. i don't look at him differently because he didn't agree with me on an issue. >> for freedom, madiba's moral courage, this country's historic transition to a free and
democratic nation has been a personal inspiration to me. it has been an inspiration to the world. >> we're back now with donna brazil. fascinating to see so many presidents, present and past speaking so highly of him, donna. >> and vice presidents. i remember when al gore came back from south africa, how just enthusiastic he was to have met nelson mandela, al gore like so many other senators fought and, of course, pushed for legislation to end the partide and in 19 94 mandela thought da m -- democracy was the only way to solve problems and wanted 100% precipitation. he wanted people to be encouraged. there was a lot of uncertainty.
he kept pressing us to train people, train everyone, train them like you do down in the south and up north and bill lynch that we lost, he was the deputy mayor of new york city who was insurance mental in bringing mandela here in the 1990s, bill lynch practically all of us who really went out of our way to train people to get them ready for that election. >> i'll never forget being there on election day, there was a blazing sun and standing in line with people that never voted in their lives, people in 70s and 80s standing in the hot sun for hours and hours in this long line just to cast a vote for the first time in their lives. donna thanks for being with us. we'll be right back. more with the panel. [ male announcer ] research suggests cell health
just about 9:00 p.m. eastern, remembering nelson mandela. more tributes from the first lady. we'll forever draw strength from his moore l courage and kind nsz. hillary clinton, he was a champion with unmatched grace. truly an big soul. professor, let's start off with you. oh -- all right. start with christiane, he's not there. your thought? >> we said so much of what he's accomplished. seeing these pictures, you get the sense of a man who enjoyed when he got into power. he smiled. he laughed. he inspired people is