tv Fareed Zakaria GPS CNN December 8, 2013 10:00am-11:01am PST
say. so i've got to thank you all here. mo, susan, ken, thanks for coming by. and thank you all for watching "state of the union." i'm candy crowley in washington. fareed zakaria gps starts right now. >> this is gps, the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed ka czzaczar ya comin you live from new york. we'll start today's show with nelson mandela and we will ask what happened to his legacy in africa and beyond? i have a great panel including one of mandela's close kf dants. then the man who until this summer was president obama's top adviser on national security, tom donnelly, on the iran deal and on why he says the u.s. doesn't need to cut a deal with hamid karzai of afghanistan. next, how to understand the
booming american economy. i'll ask the man who presided over great growth and some critics charge also helped create many bubbles. former fed chair alan greenspan. and as we approach the first anniversary of the newtown massacre, what can the u.s. learn from other nations about gun policy? i'll take you to japan for a fascinating look at a nation that loves violent video games but has a gun death rate that is very different from america's. it's a preview of a "gps" special airing tonight at 7:00 p.m. eastern. but first, here is my take. when nelson mandela was released from prison in 1990, i remember being struck by how old-f old-fashioned he seemed. he spoke with the language, kay dance and manner of figures from the 1940s and '50s. as someone who grew up in india he reminded me of the videos i had seen of mahut ma gandhi and
nero. he had the same formal way of speaking and dressing, the same dignity of bearing, the same sense of history. and mandela really was a throwback to an older time of great leaders who through courage and sheer willpower changed the course of history. 27 years in prison had kept intact his manners but also his morals. his most important act, of course, was forgiveness, but he didn't just talk about reconciliation. he took painful actions to make it real. he learned the language of his oppressors and studied their culture. even after the election of a new government with a new constitution, mandela made sure that the old establishment, the civil service, the army, even the hated police was largely kept in place. the white business class was encouraged to participate actively in the new south africa. compare that to so many transitions, for example iraq, where the new regime came in, fired or jailed or killed
everyone from the old, and a ten-year civil war followed. instead of vengeance, mandela sought truth and reconciliation. he was not a saint, but rather a political genius. he did what he did because it saved his country. when he came to power, many wondered how he would steer the new country's foreign policy. after all, the african national congress had been supported by the revolution aers of the world, gadhafi, arafat, castro, but mandela knew what was in his country's best interests. he steered it in a pro-western, pro-democratic, pro-market direction, and yet he kept faith with his old comrades honoring them, never forgetting their support when he and his movement were in the wilderness. his final act of greatness was leaving office. very few black african leaders had ever left office voluntarily in 1999 when nelson mandela did after just one term. he wanted to make sure that
south african democracy did not descend into a cult of personality or dynasty. he was in this sense south africa's george washington. as much as one man can shape a country's future, nelson mandela did it for south africa, and in doing so, he also shaped the conscience of the entire world. let's get started. let's go live to johannesburg. we're joined from outside mandela's home in johannesburg. robin, there's a lot of talk about prayer and reflection. today is the day of prayer and reflection, lots of religious ceremonies planned. what i was wondering, i wanted to ask you was mandela is man of deep faith? >> reporter: no, he wasn't a man of faith his family has told me.
that he believed in infinity. heot g his strength and i saw it over the years from this real since of self-confidence, his inner discipline. he drew himself -- from himself, and i think he was a very ntcharter, very int introverted and that's where he seemed to get his strength from, his spirituality rather than from a god. he was born methodist and what you will see though over the coming days, particularly at his funeral, there's going to be an interesting mix of african tradition and western tra dixs and what is also important i think is that he felt rooted to his community, to the tribe in the region more than he felt rooted or connected to god. what we are seeing at the moment is that tribal leaders are going to be accompanying his body along the way until its buried talking to him all the time.
it's a ceremony called closing of the eyes where they have been talking to the ancestors, helping him transition to the afterworld. it's nor about that than some traditional belief in religion. >> we can see around you people are mourning, but when you talk to them, what is the sense of loss? what are they mourning? >> reporter: you know, they are, of course, mourning nelson mandela, but just remember mandela was like a mirror. he reflected back to south africa what they wanted to be, what this nation imagined itself to be. perhaps an idealistic vision. today 20 years later, this is a very complicated, often divided at times nation. now, what they also i think are mourning is that very vision of leadership we saw in mandela. you spoke about it a little earlier. he really played the long he? he looked ahead. he planned.
he was a tactician, a pragmatist. he was a man who really thought about being a symbol of reconciliation. compare that with president zuma whose leadership and whose government seems to lurch from crisis to crisis. there seems to be an overwhelming focus on scandals over personal enrichment, whether it's president zuma or those close to him. they seem to have according to many south africans, there is a real focus of this current government on the trappings of power, of using the state to protect the elite so at least to further the interest of the elites and president zuma. that is the kind of contradick and that's what south africans are seeing and saying has mandela's party lost its way. i think there's a lot of inner thinking, a lot of digestion of what south africa is now, what mandela wanted it to be, and what south africans wanted it to be 20 years ago, and i think many people here are not here
just to mourn a man. they may be also mourning the vision of a country they hoped for, but also i think there's a lot of talk that there's a responsibility that they have to continue mandela's vision. that's an invigorated sense of enthusiasm and i think that's what's key. a lot of people saying we cannot vision. we have to work harder. let's see if that translates into some political impetus. >> thank you, so what has become of nelson mandela's legacy of the promise that africa seemed to hold in those heady days of the 1990s after his release from prison and his election? i have a great panel to discuss all this. kesh la shoe ban ni was a political prisoner at robben island alongside nelson mandela. in later years he was the ceo of the nelson mandela foundation.
peter godwin is a former human rights lawyer in his native zimbab zimbabwe. he became an author. mandela wrote the forward his book. peter binart is at the university of new york. you pointed out that mandela was always different, even in prison you say everybody else wore rumpled clothes. he took pains to iron his clothes. he stood ramrod straight. he had the kind of imperial bearing. your foundation tried to train leaders in mandela's wake. do you think that the drop-off was inevitable ors had south africa taken a particularly bad spiral downward after nelson mandela? >> look, i think as a country we've taken a knock, but i don't think the process has completely and totally derailed.
i think it can be put back on track reasonably easy but it will take a huge amount of hard work to do so and i think we have the resources, the personnel resources and the willingness to put it back on track. >> let me ask you, you were in jail for so many years, what does that do to somebody? looking at you, looking at mandela, what does it do to spend those many years in jail? >> it teaches one a range of things. one, patience, simply waiting, and there's a huge amount of waiting in prison. it's not just waiting for your sentence to be finished. you can wait for a letter that's coming to you for a long, long time, and that depends on a whole host of issues. that's one lesson that anyone who goes through prison learns. the second one is to be with
these people who are completely and totally amassed into changing society. i was young, i don't thinkity the ideals as well as i think i understood them at the end of my sentence and spending time with all of those people was helpful in that regard, and it connected me to a world i would otherwise not have been connected to. so prison was bad, but it was good as well, particularly for a young person like i was when i went in. >> peter godwin, you lived through those times, reported on them. part of this was, you know, the prisoners could not have known they were going to be released, people like nelson mandela, because so much of what happened hinged on 1989 and the collapse of communism worldwide. the an c was recorded as a communist front by the south african government, right? >> absolutely. and in some ways i think that, you know, we sometimes overlook south africa's great good
fortune in being the first african nation to become independent after the cold war was over and that africa stopped being this proxy battleground between communism and capitalism, moscow and washington. i mean, sometimes the problem when one looks back at the sort of dead hand of history makes what happened look inevitable. i remember covering it at the time and none of it felt inelfable. mandela took enormous rics when he was moved out of robben island and he was in other prisons where he started talking on his own secretly to the architects of apartheid to see if he could broker a deal. that was an extraordinary act of self-confidence and risk taking that began the unlocking of the whole of apartheid. >> peter, you pointed out that back in the united states, we regarded mandela as a communist. the reagan administration
branded the anc a terrorist group and dick cheney voted against a resolution to release nelson mandela. so this was all happening around the world. >> right. i think peter godwin's point that south africa's transition was facile traitated by the end the cold what are is extremely important but it's important to remember in the 1980s a lobl anti-apartheid movement arose during the cold war in which people in america said we're not going to see south africa in purely cold war terms. we're not going to sep reagan's pacic envision that the apartheid regime is on the part of the free world because it's anti-communist and the anc, they are on the side of unfreedom. i think the willingness to look at south africa beyond cold war terms when when the cold war was raging was critically important
to the transition in south africa. >> when you talked with nelson mandela, did you find that he -- had he forgiven the west for, you know, having mostly for the most part sided against the anc? >> i think in my conversations with him, he forgave the west, and he realized there's a huge amount of things we can pick up from western leaders and we did p pick up a huge amount of learnings. if you remember quite well when he came out, he emphasized the question that monopoly capit capitalist enterprises would be nootionized. i think it is bulldogs ecause o contacts with major western leaders he was able to moderate that viewpoint. i'm not trying to suggest ma mandela simply followed what he
was told my western leaders. >> peter, what do you think explains the drop-off from mandela to south africa today? what strikes me when you read about south africa is inequality has worsened between whites and blacks substantially. the number of people of black children who get educated in integrated schools is something like 10%. you know, you look at the leadership, zuma versus mandela, and you look around africa, it doesn't seem as though sun, you know, it doesn't seem this was an upward trend. >> that's true. that discrepancy is true, but it's also true that the standard of living of black south africans has risen. the number of black south
africans with clean drinking water and in the education system has gone up. south africa has been a glass half empty glass half full thing that people tend to project upon south africa a lot of the prejudices with which they enter into the situation to begin with. but i think what's really going to be interesting going forward now is in a sense a kind of custody battle for brand mandela. who claims him as their real symbol, and more mandela symbolism was his stuff in trade. he realized he was an astonishingly powerful symbol. in a sense you can see across the world we all want to claim him. all other countries want to claim mandela. he represents our better selves. but within south africa is he now a national symbol or to what extend do the anc keep him as their symbol. they are a 100-year-old
organization. to what ix tent can they keep him? what happens when mandela goes effectively to the anc majority. there's still more than 60% of the vote is what they get. they're being challenged from both left and right. that's going to be very interesting once we've gone through the next few weeks of memorialization as to how the dust settles on that. >> peter, 15 seconds, do you think -- i'm sorry about this -- but do you think mandela's legacy will stay alive or is this one of these moments which seems very, very profound, five years ago we will have forgotten him 1234. >> talking about the brand of mandela is the emphasis on the u.s. has been so much on the forgiveness that we have forgotten that he only forgave once he had actually overcome an unjust system and that the struggle in south africa continues to create a more just society. just as it did in the united states after legal segregation was abolished but there were
still massive economic inequities. my hope is mandela is not too domesticated and sanitized now in his death. >> thank you all three of you. the two peters, a wonderful panel. up next, japan loves violent video games just like america. but they have almost no gun violence. why? we'll explain on a preview of my new global report, "global lesson on guns." ♪ my friends, they do surround me ♪ ♪ i hope this never ends ♪ and we'll be the best of friends ♪ [ male announcer ] the 2014 chevrolet traverse... all set? all set. [ male announcer ] ...with three rows of spacious seating for up to eight. imagine that. chevrolet. find new roads. yeah.
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now for our "what in the world" segment. this week will mark one year since the horrific shootings in newtown, connecticut. i wanted to get beyond what has become a gridlock debate on gun control in america, so i decided to take a look at the rest of the world. my special report, "global lessons on guns" premieres at 7:00 p.m. for viewers in north america. in the weeks following the newtown massacre, a clearer picture of the shooter, adam lanza, began to emerge. alienated and alone, he played military video games in his
basement for hours on end according to reports. with access to a small arsenal, he turned video game fantasies in reality. leaving 26 dead at sandy hook. so in our search for global lessons on guns, we wanted to find a country that could teach us about gaming and gun violence. we decided to visit japan because few nations on earth have more avid gamers than the land of the rising sun. the japanese play many of the same violent video games that we do. in 2012 consumers spending on video games in japan was second only to the u.s. but there's another factor to consider here when it comes to gun violence. japan has some of the strictest gun laws in the world.
the basic premise of those laws, if you want to own a gun, good luck. japan's firearm and swords control law states no person shall possess a firearm. before listing a few narrow exceptions for hunters and other categories. for the brave few still willing to apply for one, they face an intricately designed bureaucratic obstacle course. just ask rick sacka. a former u.s. marine living on mount fuji. he says he's one of only a handful of foreigners in japan to legally own a gun. back at his house, he showed us the binders full of paperwork he's had to deal with over the years. they were a bit overwhelming even to explain. >> what all do you have to do? >> it's -- initially -- do you
want to help me? >> sacca took over 20 hours of lectures, a written test, a shooting range class, and he passed a criminal background check. a doctor gave him a full physical and psychological exam. he also visited the police station more than five times where he was interviewed in an interrogation room. >> are you having any problems with alcohol? are you having any problems with drugs? are you having problems with relationships, family, work, money? >> the police also questioned sacca's family, his co-workers, even his neighbors and to top it off, he had to give them a detailed map of his home. >> to produce a floor map of where your firearm will be stored in your home is kind of unusual, and photos that actually detail all of the locks that we have to have in there and show that it's done properly. >> it took sacc a over a year to get approved. >> that's our fuel firearms license. >> and he must renew his licenses regularly.
>> the intrusion that occurs with the process regularly would never, ever be tolerated in the u.s. >> the process meant to discourage people from even trying to get a gun. and it works. japan has fewer guns per person than almost any other country. less than one firearm per 100 people according to one estimate. and the country's gun murder rate, it's astonishing low. in 2012 this nation of 130 million counted only four gun murders. that's right, four. by comparison, the united states had over 4,600 gun murders per 130 million people in 2010. of course, the united states cannot be japan, but if you really want to understand the gun debate, it helps a lot to get facts from the rest of the
world. japan's example shows that violent video games do not necessarily lead to gun violence. but barring access to guns does make a difference. watch global lessons on guns. we travel not only to japan but switzerland, australia, columbia looking for answers to america's gun problem. up next on today's show, the man who until this summer was president obama's top national security adviser. my conversation with tom donilon. ♪ [ female announcer ] feed a man a cookie and he eats a cookie. ♪ feed him a fresh baked cookie and he eats a much, much better cookie. bake the world a better place with nestle toll house.
snow and ice now causing problems in parts of the north and east. hundreds of flights are canceled in d.c. with airports across the country also experiencing delays. the wintry blast not expected to last long with above freezing temperatures moving in monday. nuclear inspectors are in iran today for their third visit to a heavy water reactor. the site is being carefully monitored because it could in theory be a source of plutonium. that's one of two possible elements along with highly enriched uranium that could be used as fuel for a nuclear bomb. iran denies it is trying to build a bomb. coming up at the top of the hour, a newlywed couple is charged in a brutal murder. police say the husband and wife plotted and killed a man just for the thrill of it. we uncover the deadly scheme. i'd fredricka whitfield. fareed za kkaria gps continues right now.
until june 30th, tom donilon had the president's ear quite literally. that day was his last as mr. obama's national security adviser. he's now a distinguished fellow at the council on federal relations. he joins me now to talk about iran to winding down the war in afghanistan to mitigating tensions between china and japan. >> thank you, fareed. >> you were deeply involved in the whole policy with iran. it seems we're at two positions that cannot be bridged. it appears that what we are saying is we need iran to essentially shut down parts of its program to ensure it cannot have a kind of breakout capacity that would allow it to the weaponize its program. the president says we are not going to dismantle a single
thing. we're willing to freeze, have everything monitored, but no dismantling. how do you bridge those two positions? >> well, the reason we're here, of course, is because of the tremendous pressure that's been put on the iranian economy through the u.s.-led sanctions effort. president rouhani took a stand in the article you referenced, but there's going to have to be roll back of the program. they will have to ensure the international community to solid ways they're not pursuing a nuclear weapon and that -- >> do you think it would mean rolling back centrifuges? >> it will have to be a comprehensive solution in order to provide the reassurance the world community is going to demand here and absent that, it's going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to get a comprehensive agreement. i think we have in place a solid basis on which we can proceed for the next six months because
the program is frozen. it's rolled back in certain aspects with respect to the 21% enriched uranium and we have a very aggressive and unprecedented monitoring machine. we have the basis on which to have a negotiation but at the end of the day there will have to be roll back of the program, no doubt. >> the one monkey wrench here could be prime minister netanyahu who haas laid out a mo max millist position than the united states. if we could come up with a deal acceptable to the administration, are you confident that you can sell it to the israelis? >> we certainly would only present a deal here, a settleme settlement, they thought achieved the goal of preventing iran from acquiring a nuclear weapon and preventing it from breaking out in any short time frame which would require really substantial roll back of the
program. i think the prime minister netanyahu is spent by a strong sense of israeli security. there's a conviction here, understandable, that this program is an ex sti sten shall threat to israel. so he's driven by that as the prime minister, as the person possible for the security of israel. i think he's driven by conviction but i also think the israelis are trying to drive as comprehensive and tough a bargain here as is possible in order to get -- >> they're setting out a position to hope to move the deal toward them. you think they'll accept something short -- >> they've been very clear they're trying to better the deal from their perspective. indeed, they raised issues around, for example, the problem of the iraq heavy water nuclear reactor, arak, being built at iraq which presents another possible source of nuclear
material, plutonium in that case, and indeed the interim deal is quite strong on that, of putting on hold all the nuclear components development with respect to the iraq facility. they've been straightforward about this trying to drive and push for as tough a deal here as is possible in order to get the maximum kind of assure here, the solid kind of assurance that the program is being used for and can only be used for peaceful purposes. >> afghanistan. do you think that it is possible that we could end up in a situation where because hamid karzai will not sign off on the deal that would allow america to have troops in afghanistan, the united states goes down to zero in afghanistan? can we fight al qaeda with no troops in afghanistan? is the zero option viable? >> well, if there's not a bilateral security agreement signed between the united states and afghanistan, there won't be
a troop presence in afghanistan after december 31st, 2014. as we sit here today, there are around 50,000 troops -- it's not on the front page of the newspaper every day, but there are 50,000 american troops in afghanistan. we're on track to finish this mission by december 3 1st, 2014, and we will finish the mission by then. the question on the table is what kind of presence and what kind of support will the united states and the international community provide afghanistan after that date? we will require and we've negotiated with the afghan government certain protections anden understandings with the afghanis. if we don't have the kind of assurances we need, the kind of elements of an understanding we need, it's not possible for us to do this. you ask an important question about the u.s. interest. the united states has a lot of options in terms of pursuing its interests. this would be optimal certainly from the afghan perspective which is why i in another interview called it reckless. the big risk is president karzai
risks undermining support among the american people for a continued effort in afghanistan. that's what really is a major risk here. there are practical risks. there's a risk we won't, in fact, be able as a practical matter be able to do the planning and excuse necessary to have an ongoing presence. >> if it doesn't happen, you're saying we could protect our interests and fight al qaeda even if there were zero troops available in afghanistan. >> the united states has options to it to protect its interests. the united states is capable of doing this. we're going to finish -- >> there were people in government who have been arguing for that option, zero option internally anyway, right? >> i don't want to get -- there's a variety of options being argued for in the government. i haven't in the past and i won't today get into internal discussions, but what i can say quite directly is we'll finish this mission on december 31st, 2014. the afghan government, by the way, other than president karzai, is in favor of this
ongoing misas, by the way, is the council of elders that president karzai called together that recommended to him to go ahead with this. he should sign this. if we don't have an understanding here, we won't be able to go forward with the u.s. presence there. and there's a cascading effect that's really important to understand which is why it's so in the interest of the afghans. if the united states isn't there, the capability is no thereto to support nato and the other nations that want to provide support. it will impair our ability to continue to support the way we want to the afghan national forces and ultimately it will affect the nonsecurity assistance.donilon, pleasure toe you on. up next, is the federal reserve putting america on the wrong track. i will ask alan greenspan, the former chairman of the fed. houe and getting a little exercise. unlike the bargain brand, depend gives you new fit-flex®, our best protection. it's a smooth and comfortable fit with more lycra strands.
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stock market boom, the dotcom bubble, 9/11, the wars in iraq and afghanistan, 2 1/2 years after he left office the world was plunged into a deep financial crisis. i wanted to talk to him about the state of the u.s. economy, the actions and duties of the fed, much, much more. he has a new book out called "the map and the territory." welcome. >> thank you very much. i'm glad to be with you. >> so the news we have now is that the u.s. economy grew the last quarter 3.6%, faster than people -- anyone really expected. and the question i have for you is so we now have a kind of experiment of sorts which is the united states has pursued ever since the financial crisis a very expansionary monetary policy. you seem as though you're uncomfortable with this level of monetary expansion that the fed is doing. >> there's no doubt that the very low long-term interest
rates has had some buoying elements in the economy. the it goes beyond that because even though we have very major expansion of the balance sheets, it has not essentially spilled over in lending by commercial banks into the usual pattern that one sees when reserved go up. so why aren't banks lending more. wh what. >> first and most important to
recognize, is that the level of in certainty of the long-term future is far greater than at any time i remember and indeed. >> when i look at it today, it doesn't seem like it is more uncertain than most times. everyone agrees that it exists. there are significant dimensions of those that believe that the extent of government intervention that businesses cannot divide what do about the
future. for example, that riatio was at the lowest level since 1938. it was so low, the cash flow cannot find adequate investment to use. you believe that if the federal research does not unwind these measures pretty soon we are in for trouble. >> eventually, yes. i think it will and that is the reason why there is an obvious focus at the federal reserve of the timing of when they restore themselves to an earlier policy.
to handle it. >> i know you have not been telling me what you think about the potential fed chairman do you think it makes a difference in your long experience that she is a woman? you happen to be married to a strong professional working woman? >> not that i can determine. i in fact janet yellen is an intelligent economist and knows what is going on. i have worked with her for years and learned a lot from her actually. she knows what is going on and there is a different type of problem that is going to be
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this week will mark the first anniversary of the newtown massacre. after the united states in yemen the top two, what country is estimated to have the top civilian gun owner. stay tuned and we'll tell you the correct answer. this week's book of the week is "my promised land". it is part memoire, part history. part analysis. on the whole, the most thoughtful book written about israel. now for the last look. keeping with nelson mandela's passing and spirit. the aid foundation published
it's report. it is based on polls involving 135 countries. who said they donated the most money to charity and who said they volunteered the most time. the u.s. was only 13th when it came to donating money and first place when it came to helping out someone in need. what country is the least charitable? according to the report, that goes to greece. while economic troubles go to greece, the report proves it is not always about the money. even syria made the top 10 lift for helping out a stranger. switzerland has one of the highest rates of gun ownership
in the world. how is this possible? i'll explain that and more tonight at 7:00 p.m. eastern for viewers. don't miss it. thank you for being pard t of m program this week. i will see you next week. >> hello everyone. these are the stories that are topping the news this hour. temperatures plunge as a dangerous ice storm put millions at risk. killing just for the fun of it?