tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN December 10, 2013 1:00am-2:01am PST
cabinet meetings when he was president. i remember seeing him even before he was president talking to his group of aides and, again, he was always the last to speak. he'd listen to what everyone said. and he told me many times he wanted to be he was one of the few people in the early years it was very important to reconcile that the tribal leaders and traditional african leadership. that would be an extraordinary event. >> i want to welcome our viewers now. it is the top of the hour. i'm anderson cooper. we have live at fnb stadium where the world is gathering to remember nelson mandela. this is an impressive memorial
service to get under way bringing the rich, powerful and the average citizen here to remember one of the largest gather is in history. some 90,000 people expected to be packing this massive stadium and it is fill up fast. a spot where mandela made his last public appearance three years ago, right after the world cup celebration, some 91 world leaders, sdig thdignitaries are. it's a rainy day but that is not stopping the crowds. 4:00 a.m. in the east. we welcome our viewers in the united states and watching around the world. i'm happy to be joined by christiane amanpour and robin curnow. for those who are watching at home and watching around the
world, they should stay tuned. it is a treat to see that this is history in the making. >> it's really true. in the days since mandela died, you've had such an outpouring of sadness, but really it's been marked by the joyfulness and the celebration of his life. i think it's not too harsh to say we will probably not see his likes again. all of the descriptions of how he grew up being a consensus builder, a consiliator. he knew all about apartheid. many of them were abused by this racist regime. he gets together with antiapartheid leaders and he comes out and says, hang on a second. the whites are not going
anywhere. this is the african land as well. they can't beat us. we can't beat them. there has to be some sort of consensus and skill yaconciliat >> i think the key about mandela is planning for the long term. some of his old prison wards he invited them to his inauguration. he treated them with respect. i think that says how you treat somebody comes back in how they treat you. it was very key about mandela. he had a deep sense of respect
even for the enemy because he knew that was power. >> he also learned the language of the oppressor in prison taught himself and encouraged everybody else, all of the other leaders in the prison with him saying you will be across the table from them when they have -- you have to understand that. >> every enemy has to know that and every ballots field commanders, good ones, say you have to know the enemy and you're right. one of his fellow inmates and armed ring of the anc told us how he forced us to learn it and when he came out he did extraordinary things. he went to visit the widow of the occutade. he went to one of these white only ghettos.
>> he had tea with her! >> some people say you went too far. ed people have criticized me but we see the results. we have peace. >> i want to bring in rick stengel who spent so many times with nelson mandela over the years. . that sometime in prison, many have described it as a university for anc. a time in which 27 years, they had time on their side. they could discuss endlessly and they would. they would often, my understanding, every day, they were in line and they would hold discussions and debate things constantly. what did mandela say about his time in robben island in those terms? >> they referred to it as the university, anderson. you're right. they reinforced each other and kept themselves together. they were always trying to teach
each other and they had these very famous debates. one of which i remember mandela saying with some sense of humor was whether the tiger was indigenous to africa or not. there are no tigers in africa and he said he was on the wrong side of that debate for many years. the debates were mainly political. there was lots of discussion about the nature of the communist party and anc. they were allies for many years. they debated what is the nature of the future of south africa when they would be able to reconcile with whites and minorities. they were unable to get books and newspapers and later they were able to get it. he told a funny story wanting to order a copy of a book but they rejected it because they thought it was a military manual.
>> you talked to mandela about this. he did not give to bitterness and did not give in to hate. you say that could be overstated, that he did feel anger and bitterness but he just knew that he had to put it aside in order to unite this country. >> yes. i think he said if he were alive, it would be unrealistic and unreasonable for a person not have bitterness what happened to him. he, more than anybody on the planet, was able to overcome that and able to triumph over it. he that he could never seen to be bitter or angry. as christiane mentioned. he made these great symbolic gestures of reaching on to the other side of inviting gregory to his inauguration.
which means he wasn't bitter to anything else. >> i think it means he could forgive but never forting. the prison days being sort of university. early on you got a sense of his pragmatism as a reared. they were given long pants and treat as boys. mandela said when he got into prison, this is unacceptable, we have to make a point about this. he wrote letters and said, fine. mandela, you can have a pair of trousers. he found them at the bottom of his prison cell and so relieved, then he realized that none of the other black prisoners got trousers and he gave them back and said, "i'm not going to be
the only one." it was a man who understood his role as the leader of this revolution and those kind of small things mattered. >> we are joined by our david mckenzie in our johannesburg bureau. this has transfixed the nation here, we have seen probably tens of thousands going to the various homes of mandela in soweto in a suburb of johannesburg to pay their respect and people watching these events here today. >> reporter: certainly an event that will draw thousands to this stadium and maybe up to 90,000 but more than 40 million south africans will be watching this today in homes and spillover stadiums and in communities throughout this land in all kinds of communities. yes, throughout these days of mourning it's been more like a
celebration outside of mandela's home where he passed away last thursday, piles of roses and flowers piled up and many personal messages left there often in the hand of children. mandela was such an important figure for children and south africa and throughout the world. these deeply personal messages for a man many of them never would have seen on television or ever met in person. of course, the oldest south africans i've met them in different parts of this town and city. they have said to me they remember very specific moments when mandela rah relieved and they saw him for the first time in prison. this is a national global event of commemoration but very personal specifically deeply personal for many south africans, myself included. anderson? >> this is mandela's family what you see here is a collection of the grandchildren, the children,
his present wife and ex-wife n winne. the one thing you perhaps could fault him, perhaps one of his greatest failures many people said, he wasn't there for his family. i think that same sacrifice for the greater good. he understood it but when you speak to his family, a lot of them, particularly his daughters have found it very difficult to come to terms that he abandoned them and he chose this. >> isn't their amazing story about his daughter zindzi. his name was banned. people couldn't quote him and his daughter read out a defiant
stadium in this stadium and it was the first time she felt part of him. >> she said she was a teenager. >> she said, my father says, no, i cannot accept the conditions. even though he was offered to leave prison, he said no. until he was able to get an equitable deal for the other prisoners. >> let's listen in. >> we are just trying to get a sense of who is coming in. i think when you look at all of these people, the great and the good and the powerful and the famous. you know, when they met him
often at home they were the most important person but i've never seen people star struck like they were when they met nelson mandela. there is the former british prime minister. >> the former british prime minister david cameron was here earlier. i spoke to him. it's very interesting because the struggle against apartheid involved in no small part economic pressure with the global sanctions and britain, the consecutive party of margin rat thatcher did not agree with them yet eventually congress passed the bills in 1986 and it was incredibly important in isolating south africa and
making the then president de klerk to realize this is not sustainable any more. >> this has not officially begun. when it begins, the national anthem will be played which will be dramatic. >> you know what is key about that? it's called god bless africa and it's a prayer for africa and abandoned in the old days. one of these judicious examples of his leadership there is still the old apartheid anthem so there is the african and english version of this. >> hamid karzai, the leader of afghanistan, is obviously coming in right now. >> when they sing the national anthem, there is still this cobbling together of old and new. the fact that he didn't just sweep away the entire old order
was so key, particularly when you look now. the arabian spring, even iraq when a new government comes in and there is a sense of absolutely everything before had to go. mandela was so different. by embracing the old order, he neutralized them. >> let's listen in just to hear what the crowds are hearing. >> let's bring in our jill dougherty. so many more to come. >> there are. sorry? >> go ahead, jill. >> there are 91 of them.
as we're looking at this, it reminds, i think, us of the power of moral force and people come into history at a particular point who are the turning point. nelson mandela just pointed out he did not destroy. in almost like a gorbachev or a nelson mandela at another where they were able to turn, but they do not destroy, they do not -- later if nelson mandela had gone in a different direction, it might have led to a horrible, horrible bloody conflict that would have consumed that entire area. but he didn't. that is the power of one individual in the moral force that i think people even if they are the powerful as you see them walking in here, they are all moved by this one man who, from a prison cell, was able to
is that robert mu -- >> no. >> he is coming but lots of presidents from all over this continent coming. >> it's going to be a real challenge in terms of seating because you have raul castro, the leader of cuba. president barack obama, obviously, does not want to be seated near castro e. >> and probably won't be. and others don't want to sit next to the other so it's going to be quite a challenge. >> i think they are just above us and it's not a large area if you think about 90 head of state in one area. there is only one entry and exit point so there is a possibility you are going to see some rather uncomfortable introductions or at least eye contacts in the next few hours. >> i have to say i can never get over the fact i've interviewed some of these people who might
be called dictators who even they say they admire, more than anybody else on earth, nelson mandela. people even people who don't follow his lead profess to admire. i don't know if that is heard mentality or just denial. >> rick, when you began to work with mandela, what was he like one-on-one when you spent time with him? you spent many, many hours talking with him. >> anderson, he had come out of prison not that much long before and he was a mixture of being shrewd about what was going on and being naive. the other day you even told the story how he thought the sound mikes might have been weapons with when he first came out. the other thing that was so lovely about those days is that he wasn't surrounded by an entourage.
it was very small number of people who kind of protected him. he was working out of shell house in johannesburg which was the anc headquarters. a low-rise building and not protected at all. so i had this kind of amazing intimate access with him. he was at that time trying to learn what had he to do to become leader. we were also working on the book. he was trying to prevent his country from ending up in civil w w war. it was an extraordinary time yet he kept his calm. he was measured which is one of his great words of praise that he could say about anybody. >> that -- that -- that -- that sense of patience, was that something he developed while in prison, those 27 years in prison? >> yes. he would be the first to say that prison changed him, that the man who went into prison was
hot-headed, was impetuous in some ways. he would throw people off the podium sometimes when he was in the african youth league. and prison makes you have to control everything about your thoughts, everything about your behavior. you've been in his cell in robben island. you have to control your movements because you can barely move around. prison i think was the cruicifa. it was like putting a mike on a statue when i interviewed him. i've never known a human being being as still as was. i think that comes in prison when you have to control your movements at all times. >> a number of people who spent time in prison with nelson mandela, one of them is here.
arrow? >> yes, indeed. i'm outside the late president's home where we are seeing that same sill vertebcelebrate atmos. a pleasure to meet you. first, what do you make of this spectacle that we are witnessing now? it's pouring down rain in the city yet people are still coming out to honor this one great man. >> it's unusual for it to rain like this. in timber culture this is what is expected. >> reporter: explain that. >> rain is associated with wellness, with growing, with all of those things that people want. so when a chief dies in a community or something happens in his family, it's supposed to rain and it's supposed to be wonderful life.
>> so south africans can take some comfort in the weather that we have right now. during your time in robben island you were sent there well after nelson mandela and relieved before. what can you reveal to us the inner workings of anc and how nelson mandela still on his mind freedom and equality? >> i got to prison and joined the anc as a fully open organization. we only had to keep it away from wardens but they knew we were meeting as the anc. they could pick up our communication in a two-way system in the prison. we knew because some of the things we had said in our meetings would come back to us. the only thing we were extremely careful about no one should be charged with taking part. >> fascinating to know the anc struggle continued behind bars even though you and nelson
mandela were in prison and that fight was, obviously, successful. thank you for your time. i was in zimbabwe. as i broke the news, people in that capital were saddened and they do feel for the man who even though was leading a separate company, elevated the flight of black africans and i was on nelson mandela avenue in harare and he opened parliament there in 1998. nelson mandel a, the fascinating story of struggling behind bars and who served as the african president. >> crowd reacting.
>> ban ki-moon. >> he is one of the people who is going to be speaking here as well. >> that's right. he is there. we also just saw before that f.w. de klerk sitting with another group of so-called elders, a group around mandela including rahimy the special envoy of the united nations to syria. we saw mary robinson the former eye wish president the special envoy to the democratic republic of congo trying to help the situation there. >> there never has been such a collection of leaders in one place. >> absolutely. i think all three of us were at the funeral of john paul, ii and that was extraordinary to see the polish people line up to pay their respects to him but this
takes on a whole other level. what you have here is a man who doesn't just have a religious constituency to which he appealed. he seems to have appealed across countries, across ages and across the world. so this is what we are seeing here is an absolute resonance of nelson mandela's legacy. >> we will take a short break. our coverage continues.
still now ramposa -- this is winnie mandela about to go in now. a huge cheer coming up here. >> it cannot be overstated the importance she was to mandela and what -- now the crowd is seeing. listen in to the response she is getti getting. >> some of them are chanting winnie, winnie. >> many say there would not be a nelson mandela without winnie mandela. >> absolutely. he was silent for 27 years and she took on the mantle and she was also jailed but she kept on
going and apartheid regime knew they could get to her. she was brutalized by the apartheid even more so because they knew that would hurt mandela. now here is mandela's widow, graca. the only one to be married to two head of state. she was married to the president that was killed in a plane crash. this has been extraordinarily hard for all of these women and she does look very pained. he has been very sick the last six months. particularly we were told she was at his bedside particularly at hospital in pretoria every night. sometimes sleeping in a hospital bed next to him. it's a very powerful moment no doubt for these families because he comes from a divided family. you saw list machel sitting next to his daughter and they say
they struggled but i think we are seeing now a sense of unity. >> let's listen in. ♪ there is winnie mane della walking through the rain. >> we are not determining -- the videotape we are about to see robert mugabe. >> no, that is not him. he another one who loved mandela. been around him for a long, long time. this is f.w. de klerk.
>> about to see him. >> who i spoke to as mandela died. i know i've spoke to several times about their joint role in ending apartheid. he is what is so important about de klerk. even though it was mandela and soon we are going to see winnie who reached out first to the white government. she was called the mother of the nation. all of those years she was in prison -- >> and jailed. >> say her vantage point was in some ways worse than mandela. at least on robben island there was a structure and a schedule. >> there was a community and people around. >> winnie mandela was often was alone with her children and had no control over what would happen day-to-day.
>> winnie mandela is embracing the current wife of nelson mandela. >> it was a matter of great pain to nelson mandela when he came out of prison because she had her intentions elsewhere. she also was heavily criticized about the so-called mandela united football club which was her vigilante protection group and there was a trial because one of the boys had been kidnapped and killed. >> i thought she was convicted for fraud and corruption? >> yes. >> when you read the letters, winnie and mandela wrote to each other in prison, there is a lot of passion and a lot of longing. >> they are extraordinary. >> they are extraordinarily personal letters. most all of them read by the apartheid authorities but that dent stop them having a love
affair over 27 years from afar. it was said that when he came out and their marriage didn't work, he said that he was the loneliest he's ever been in his life in last years of their marriage. that said, they always remained close and she has been there, i understand, at the house every day this week. and has been a part of his life since their divorce. >> the press conference where he announced the divorce was so tragic because here was this unbelievable dignified man and icon who clearly loved his wife and he said so. i love her. she was the mother of my children. ed the pain is almost unbearable. he asked people to give him space. he never wanted to talk about it. >> you have these wonderful stories later of him meeting and courting mrs. michelle and this
sort of quite youthful kind of courtship in his mid-70s. he got married to her on his 80th birthday and they have been together the past 15 years. >> she must be an extraordinary woman. she must be such an amazing woman, so many empathy. she is married to two of the great african liberation heroes. her first president was the first black president of mozambique and the same for nelson mandela. >> the stadium not fooled at this point. the upper bleachers are filling up, are pretty much fill. the lower rungs are not. i'm not sure if crowds still outside that they are slowly letting in. no doubt. >> the president of nigeria. >> she has to be the greatest name of any leader, good luck
jonathan. so many african leaders here. early on the one thing about nelson mandela, identifying himself as an african and not allowing himself to be divided by the white regime which is a technique that white regime had used. >> very focused on a sense of being a black man. once somebody said to nelson mandela, you have given back dignity to the black man. ed, no, no, no. i've given dignity to the white man. there is no dignity in oppression. i think that is the kind of key thinking you saw with him. he always felt self-confident in himself and people in times of the deep colonial past really
sought strength that fr that as well. >> as i was saying before, this is a cool camera. it's being controlled elsewhere so we are not controlling the shots. if you're wondering why we are showing particular shots, we are not in control of this. >> so interesting. you got ramoposa sitting between the two widows and shared children, grandchildren, great grandchildren. >> that is president zuma's ex-wife and what you see is a lot of extraordinarily strong women. in his cabinet, in government, he really also encouraged to give power to women as well. he wasn't patriarchal in that
sense. >> president of ghana. i interviewed him last night. he was in new york giving a speech last night and got on a plane to come here. ghana is a sight of pilgrimage for presidents, including president obama, one of the port towns there as well. many of the slaves boarded those it terrible ships and shackled. >> when president obama visited there several years ago at the exit point where slaves were brought to the colonies. we are joined by rick stengel is watching this. >> the crowds are streaming in right now. >> there is a very measured approach to this. you can see the authorities haven't let people literally storm the gates or the
turnstiles here. there is a measured gentle approach to this and i think in a way that also parallels nelson mandela that this is not chaotic. there is a sense of order and a sense of peacefulness in a way. >> rick, the speakers will be grandchildren and relatives of mandela. a large family and he didn't have contact with. in many ways, he willingly sacrificed his family life in order to lead the struggle. >> yes. i think it was his greatest regret by far. i think someone eluded earlier to that really dreadful story he toll me for a long walk to freedom about when he was underground, when he had to leave his home after marrying winnie, he would go back and
visit his older children by his first wife evelyn and visiting his oldest son who was ten 10 or 12. as he was leaves, his son said, "daddy, why do you have to go?" he said, "because there are other children who need me as well." i thought it was heart breaking that he had to say that to his child. as you can see in the crowd he's had a complicated family life even in compile. children by his first and second wife. it's lovely to see how everybody was gathered around on this occasi occasion. >> the rain is still coming down. >> it is pouring. >> making it difficult for people to come in. just listen a little bit to hear what the crowds are hearing.
>> the president of brazil is coming in now. she arrived in the early hours of this morning. all of these world leaders occupying all of the hotels in johannesburg. she happened to come at the one i'm at. a whole line of television cameras at 2:00 in the morning. >> it will be interesting to see if she encounters president obama because she canceled her visit to the united states. >> she also has a very interesting history. she was in prison. she was part of the liberation against dictatorships in brazil and she is an amazing woman. >> a lot of mandela's greatest historical gifts was the truth and reconciliation commission
which the concept was given to them from the chilean experience. many people say the fact that mandela and along with tutu and the original government, the fact they didn't give these nuremberg trials but there was retribution. when we look at all of these people here, some of the people appeared before the truth and reconciliation commission. >> there is winnie. >> still looking at the poignant
pictures of the two women who probably love nelson the most. winnie and graca. >> it is interesting he found later life and early on in life, he was very much a ladies man. >> he was. >> well, i don't know -- i've origin said it, he was a very flirty man and he often was quite tactile even with journalists or with anyone really. when you think about it, 27 years in jail. he would rather take towards women than children because that is what he didn't see. >> graca said they met each other at the time when they were lonely. she was widowed and he was divorced and president without his immediate family and that was the spark. >> you know what was delightful? i've spoken to his bodyguards
during this time. he approached her in a gentle way and he insisted often on going to buy her chocolates himself at a big mall here. from a security point of view it was a nightmare because he would just sort of walk off and try to buy her chocolates. so he always felt the need even in those later years to be an old fashioned romantic. >> we will see more of the family members of the grandchildren of mandela. rick stengel, talk a little bit about nelson mandela. he really was a ladies man early on. >> i don't think he would like to hear that, anderson. in the new movie coming out there is an interesting sgix of that. i want to go back to the two women we have been talking about, winnie and graca.
mandela always said to me he believed winnie had a harder time than he did, that in some ways easier to be in prison. he knew where his next meal what coming in. she had to look after the two children. >> there is the danish prime minister. >> she didn't speak to -- >> followed by her cabinet. >> he really thought she was terribly mistreated by the government and had worse treatment than he did. graca was a ray of sunshine. he was indeed lonely after he separated from winnie. the other day i was looking at my notes as i was making during the time i was working with him and i remember a number of times he was on the phone with her and she was taking a trip and he would say, make sure you bring a sweater and umbrella and overcoat. he was very paternal with her and proud of her and he wanted to marry her from the very beginning and she resisted for a bit and then they decided to do
it on his momentous 80th birthd birthday. >> nelson mandela remains very popular among the people here in south africans. >> she was known as the mother of the nation. she was the face of nelson mandela during all of those years in pretty much. by many accounts more militaristic than he and disappointed he was preaching reconciliation when he came out. she was incredibly brave. she was incredibly persecuted and had a very difficult time. unlike those men who went on robben island who had each other for support, she didn't have much support. i think as awful as that separation was for him and that press conference where it was the only time in public i've ever seen him feel sorry for himself or express any sympathy for his plight, i think even when we were working on the
>> president jacob zuma who will give the keynote address at this memorial who in a very carefully choreographed manner was the one who officially announced the death of nelson mandela before midnight that thursday south african time. i believe 11:39 p.m. when he came on television and just before that, south africa's state broadcaster had a little crawl. you know the famous crawls, the words under the screen saying the president will come on and address the country on a mat of great national importance and that is, i guess, when everybody knew things were not good. there had been a lot of rumors swirling and a lot of scares around the mandela household. you were there on thursday, robin. finally the official announcement he had died and the announcement of all of these events that are unfolding right now. >> you know, this country has known at least for much of this
year that he was gravely ill. in the end ofs a ventilator and dialysis failed and kidneys. he was very, very ill. still that announcement, that very official the president looking into the camera. i think people were still shocked and still just couldn't think it. >> the zuma you see now and shaking hands with dignitaries and is different from that night. i was stunned by how devastated he looked. >> he looked slightly disheveled. >> you could see how sad he was. let's face it. he also has share of criticism. let's not beat around the bush. mandela was an iconic leader. evident the statesman and galvaniz galvanizer.
these huge, huge crowds, all of these people coming in now. >> these are people still trying to stream into the stadium. >> and they will. this is going to go on all day. >> i've been told that this could go on all night! a vigil perhaps a prayer service might continue in an ad hoc kind of way once the official proceedings have ended. we see now robin magavi. they had a difficult relationship. while mandela was in prison, robin was actually considered the liberation hero of africa. when he came out felt like he would be pushed aside for this other man. mandela was very, very critical of mugabi. on his 90th birthday i heard him
in london and he was still begging comment from mugabi saying a failure of leadership. this was a man 90, still very frail but he still felt the need to say, hey, i'm going to call you up on this one. >> south africa led the effort in africa to try to got robin to do the right pilt thing and have the elections and allowed the opposition and it wasn't worked as they hoped so there is this tension between them recently. >> the tension between the two also spilled over to nelson mandela's relationship with his thabo. he considered the response to
the zimbabwe there was -- the two had a rather fractured relationship, particularly during embecky's presidency. >> wasn't someone else mandela's preferred successor? he was overruled many times. >> this very anc way of leaving decisions to be done by the collector and nelson mandela often had to say, listen, i will have to leave it to the collective. >> how interesting is this? who knows. who knows. right now -- >> an extremely wealthy businessman. >> exactly true. he was telling me that when mandela first unilaterally reached out to the white government and was still behind bars.
many of the compile anc leadership did not approve whatever and they were worried that mandela might be so eager for a deal that he would sell out. but everybody said there is no way. we trust him. they finally trusted him to do th this. >> i talked to a pull litterier price winning photographer who was there because he is a very good photographer. are they about to sing the anthem? let's listen in. >> people are standing. >> this is the national anthem, god bless. >> let's listen.