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tv   The Situation Room  CNN  October 3, 2014 2:00pm-4:01pm PDT

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determination and work with the community and the health center in this case to do the test. when we get that definitive, in each of the cases, we make public as quickly as possible what we know about that. >> also a patient is being tested at shady grove adventist. i'm brianna keilar in "the situation room". we're monitoring this press conference at the white house. let's continue to listen in. >> why is there such an outbreak -- if one goes to liberia or sierra leone or guinea, you will see the conditions that make it very, very clear that coming into contact with bodily fluids, the most efficient way of transmission is unfortunately the very thing that holds families together. someone gets sick, they take care of them, they touch them. if they're not aware of the fact that you can't come into
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personal contact without having the proper protective equipment. funerals are another way, as well as preparing the bodies and the customs, the long-range traditions that have gone with the funerals. so the mechanism of transmission, which we've all said, direct contact with bodily fluids, amply explains what is going on right now in the west african countries. >> you're convinced no significant outbreak in the u.s. -- >> the reason i say that -- let me very briefly reiterate it. the reason there is an outbreak now is because the health care infrastructure and system in those countries is inadequate and uncapable of actually handling the kind of identification, isolation, rapid treatment, protection of the people who are come into contact and contact tracing. that's something that we have very, very well-established here. so we have a case now and it is entirely conceivable. there may be another case.
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but the reason that we feel confident is that our structure, our ability to do those things would preclude an outbreak. >> let me take this gentleman's question here. are we being notified of cases? this goes directly to what dr. fauci just said. we have a system, an infrastructure that is in place. we have a public health alert system through which cdc has distributed information and established a laboratory network for testing. when there are symptomatic patients who present themselves in medical facilities, those precautions and tests are undertaken through a network of laboratories that cdc has validated and has provided a clear guidance to. so we have the structure in place when we identify potential cases to resolve those and if there are actually confirmed ebola cases, as we have seen one
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of in texas, we take the immediate steps, isolate them, provide the treatment, undertake the contact tracing and our infrastructure works to make sure we are aware of those cases and take those steps. >> so secretary burwell said we had a case at howard but did not say we had another -- a potential case. 9 did not say we had another potential case at shady grove adventist. and the hospital's already put out a release. are there more than those two in the washington area? >> right now? >> right now. >> you've indicated and talked about the potential case at howard. we'll see the resolution of that as secretary burwell discussed. >> and the potential case at shady grove adventist? >> those reports as they come in will be addressed. those tests will be undertaken. the public health infrastructure is reacting and is taking the steps necessary to isolate that individual.
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i think perhaps dr. fauci will want to address this, or secretary burwell. but every hospital in this country has the ability to isolate a patient, take the measures -- put them in place to ensure that any suspected case is immediately isolated and the follow-up steps that have been mentioned are immediately taken -- >> lisa, to what degree have you debated internally and are you ever going to be -- when someone suggested today a travel ban for any passengers who may seek to come to the united states either directly or indirectly. if you could tell us, how do you think your deployed assets are as far as catching up with what you intend to do and do you think it's time at some point to have military medical people actually involved in the direct care as opposed to setting up the infrastructure in which care will be taken out? >> i'll take the travel ban question first. i know that that has been an
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issue that's been raised. i take note of dr. frieden's comments in this regard which is to say that, in fact, right now we believe those types of steps actually impede the response. they impede and slow down the ability of the united states and other international partners to actually get expertise and capabilities and equipment into the affected areas. and as we've said and stressed from this podium and others, the most important and effective thing we can do is to control the epidemic at its source. so what we want to do is ensure we're getting the assistance, getting the expertise and we're getting the providers into the affected region and not impeding that. >> many americans might say, half a ban, not getting there, but exit -- are you considered that action? >> let me respond to that. as i mentioned, as the measures are being taken to screen individuals who are departing
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from the affected countries and we've spoken to that, cdc professionals have actually provided the assistance and the training and the advice to airport officials in liberia, guinea and sierra leone and as a result of those measures and those screening steps that have been undertaken, many, many people, dozens of people have actually been stopped from traveling. so we see those issues -- those steps being effective. >> the speed with which we're moving out is focused on the ebola treatment units to get them -- that will take several weeks. we're working with the armed forces of liberia, working with contractors and we're working with a logistics chain of events to get the building materials there as fast as we can. it will take us several weeks to do that. we are also doing some of the ones in some fairly isolated areas that are hard to support and get the equipment out there. so those will take us the longest. on the other one, right now, we are not anticipating that
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military personnel will be treating the people. again, that will be a decision made in the future if that ever gets to that point. but the international community has said not right now. that's not what we need. >> you have folks capable of doing that, don't you? >> yes, we do. right now, medical professionals, there are three labs that are operating out there that are done by medical military professionals right now. that's doing a great job identifying who has the disease and who doesn't, which is focusing who they're able to treat the patients. >> have you considered a waiting period between issuing a visa and travel? >> i think we're going to move around a little bit. >> help me understand the stuff that you talked about in terms of preparedness here in this country, the conversations with hospitals, the coordination with the local authorities and all, seems very dissonant to people in the country who basically look at the first case or one of the first cases and see that the
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whole thing broke down, every step of the way, there were breakdowns. it broke down as the person back there was saying when he lied on the form. it broke down when the hospital turned him away. it broke down when the materials that were in his apartment haven't been thrown away. it broke down -- it feels like -- to americans, like you guys are up here talking about, we have this great and perfect system that's going to be able to contain this virus because we've done all this preparation. and yet it doesn't look like it's working. and so how should the regular, the average person have confidence that whether it's the case in howard or whether it's some case somewhere else in the country at the moment, that somebody isn't being turned away there, that somebody didn't get -- their temperature got taken in africa but didn't get caught, so they're on a plane as we speak? square the dissonance between your confidence and the fact that things don't seem to be working. >> let me respond to that.
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i think the american people should be confident for all the reasons we have stated and the president has spoken to. the public health infrastructure we have here is so expert, is so extensive and is considerable. as dr. fauci has discussed and dr. shah has mentioned, the situation in liberia, sierra leone and guinea could not be more opposite in terms of the public health infrastructure and the ability of officials there to immediately isolate an individual case. what you're seeing in texas is the isolation of that patient, the contact tracing that is being done meticulously by cdc and by local health professionals. the other thing i would say to your question is, it is true, we have a case in texas. the howard case that has been mentioned is a potential case. and i would defer to the medical professionals at howard to give
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the definitive view on that. but i think it's very important to remember. this outbreak began in march of this year. and since that time and since the screening measures that we've discussed from this podium began over the summer, there have been tens of thousands of individuals who have come to this country from the affected region. and we have now seen one case -- and as dr. fauci mentioned, it is entirely possible we will see another case. however, i would point you and others to the fact that we have now seen tens of thousands of people in the time since march to the current day, and we now have this isolated case in texas. but we have a public health infrastructure and medical professionals throughout this country who are capable of dealing with cases if they present themselves and as dr. frieden has said, we have very
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confident that we can stop this and other cases in its tracks. >> can you explain within that public health infrastructure what the lines of authority are, once you have a confirmed case, for example, in dallas, does the cdc, does the n.i.h., is there a federal authority -- is it up to the local health department -- who's in charge at that point? >> with regard to one of the things -- when any test is done, it is reported to cdc. so we have a network and we want the test to be able to go quickly. so part of the preparedness that we did was we created capability all around the country for the test to occur so that they could occur quickly. however, when that test occurs, cdc is alerted to the test occurring and the results of the test. with regard to who controls the patient, i think is the question, that is done at the local level. and we support in that. and ten people were on the ground from cdc immediately, i
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think you all know, in terms of supporting the local health departments in doing the contact tracing and any other issues that they have, whether they're issues of the testing, whether they're issues of the contact tracing, we stand ready to do that. and so while the local health officials -- because this is a local issue and that's really a big part of how you're going to do the contact tracing. they make the decisions on the ground, we are there hand in hand in support, had ten people on the ground and work hand in glove with them. >> on the contact tracings, some people in dallas are concerned about the contact group being isolated in a highly congested apartment. is that a protocol that that could be repeated in other communities, that the contact tracing group, they're isolated for some period of time, that's the best place to keep them, in an environment where it may be a
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high-density apartment? >> that goes to how local officials are handling their situation specifically. dr. fauci has gone over the protocol when you don't have a high risk of exposure. basic temperature taking two times a day on a regular basis. high-risk exposure creates different needs. how a local official choose to implement that, we work in conjunction, we have given the guidance out. in terms of what we do. but those are decisions made at the local level. i think we need to move around. when dr. fauci comes back up, he'll do that -- >> is nobody concerned there were breakdowns in dallas and are you confident there's not going to be similar breakdowns elsewhere along the same lines? >> when i spoke to the fact that we continue to work on our education and continue to work
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with locals and put out more and more information, we put out more information and updated information, when there is anything we see that we can do a better job on communicating, we'll do that. this is, as i think the general mentioned, too, we are going to learn every time and every step. but i think what we're confident about is these processes work. if you look at what happened in nigeria, in terms of the cases in nigeria, what happened is we quickly activated and cdc was a part of supporting the country of nigeria both at the state and federal level to put in place the things that it needed to put in place. we know it's about detect, isolation, treat the patient, do the contact tracing. those are the steps. and now we see where we are in nigeria in terms of the cases and them having moved through. and i think dr. fauci mentioned this. we believe as we take these key, core, fundamental steps and we are in the middle of that in dallas in terms of the contact
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tracing and making sure the people that should be taking the temperatures are doing that. so that's how and why we believe this is going to work. >> i'll answer the vaccine question in a second. i want to make the point you were making. there were things that did not go the way they should have in dallas but there are a lot of things that went right and are doing right. the person is now in isolation, being properly taken care of. and the fundamental, core basis of preventing an outbreak, contact tracing, is now going on. and that's the important thing. that's going on very efficiently. the cdc sets down very clear guideline protocols about how to do that. and that's being done. although certainly it was rocky, to the perception of people in reality. but the fact is the reason i said there wouldn't be an outbreak is because what's going on right now. even though there were missteps there, good things happened
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also. with regard to the vaccine, i don't know who asked the question about the vaccine. obviously, we would hope that vaccine could be a part of the response, even though public health infection control is still the core of getting this under control, vaccine historically is important. so we have a vaccine, a couple of candidates. the one that's the most advanced is the one we announced a while ago, the first person in a phase one trial received a vaccine on september 2nd at the n.i.h. in bethesda. that's the first phase of a multiphase trial to develop a vaccine. it's called phase one because the primary endpoint is safety. if we determine it's safe and it looks good so far and also that it induces a response that you would predict would be protective, which we'll know probably by the end of november, the beginning of december, when you get through that phase, then the next phase is a phase two, which is many, many more people
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conducted in the environment where you could prove its effica efficacy. and that would be west africa. so the next phase likely sometime in the first quarter of 2015, we'll begin a trial to determine overall long-range safety and importantly whether it works or not. >> one last question. >> dr. fauci, i understand that the purpose of this briefing is to reassure the american public and you've done that. but as a medical professional, as a doctor, what concerns you most about this outbreak and this particular disease now that it's in the united states? >> now that it's in the united states, the concern is that i don't ever like to see people get sick and people suffer and die. but as a medical professional who has witnessed and experienced the whole 38 years since 1976, i never say i'm not concerned because that's interpreted as saying something
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lightly. i take nothing lightly. but i'm convinced by what we have all said today that the system that's in place with our health care infrastructure would make it extraordinarily unlikely that we would have an outbreak. and the reason we know that is that if you look at the situations -- and nigeria, as the secretary mentioned, is a classic example of that. the reason we're having this devastating, painful, very difficult situation in the west african countries is because they don't have the system to be able to contain it. if they had the system, we would not be seeing all the suffering and dying in west africa. >> just to follow up, if that's the case and it's one case in the united states now as we know it is, why are we having news conferences like this and why are we all so afraid if there's no chance of an outbreak? what is it about this disease that frightens you and us? >> we're having the press conference because we need to
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get information out because there is a lot of fear. and the reason there's a lot of fear is that there are many things when you have outbreaks, it's the unknown. it's the cataclysmic nature of it, namely, it's acute, it kills in a high percentage and it kills quickly. that in and of itself almost intuitively makes people frightened. the other thing that makes people frightened, can this happen to me without my even knowing it, without my having any behavioral change at all? that's the kind of thing we have to keep over and over again emphasizing, we respect your concern, we understand your concern. but the evidence base tells us that that is not going to happen. and we have to say that a lot. we have to say it today and i'll have to say it tonight on tv. and tom frieden will say it tomorrow on tv. and we'll try as best we can to continue to get the message out. >> one follow-up, who bears
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responsibility for what did happen, the breakdown that happened in texas? the hospital, the cdc that didn't send out clear enough guidelines in the beginning? you say you're taking steps to make sure it doesn't happen again. are there clearer guidelines to be more communicative -- what's being done? >> it's about making sure -- dr. fauci's response to the question, we cannot overcommunicate about this issue. we cannot overcommunicate in two ways. one, because of the question that was posed with regard to how people feel. and the second is this is an execution game. in terms of both what's happening on the ground and that's why it is so important to have the united states military because there is no one that can help with execution. it is the same in the united states. so the steps that we have to take are about making sure execution, execution, execution. and that gets to your question, which is that is why we need to
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communicate and communicate again and communicate with clarity and if there was anything that people -- that's why there are 100 different documents that have been put up on the cdc website because we put up the document, we get the call. if there's a question and for some reason people don't feel it's clear or have an additional question, we get it up, we answer their question. but we're trying to disseminate that information more broadly. because this is about communication and execution, we want to continue to do that and do it as much and as quickly as we can. thank you. >> top obama administration health officials there addressing the risks of ebola, this ebola crisis now that there is a case in texas, trying to reassure americans and certainly saying that there is a possibility that there will be another case or other cases. but the u.s. is equipped to deal with it. we are following two breaking
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stories at this hour. in addition to ebola, the terrorist group isis just released a short video showing the apparent beheading of british hostage alan henning. at the end of the video, isis shows an american aid worker and threatens his life. here in the united states, you just heard members of the obama administration there talking about ebola. and right now, a hazardous materials team is finally at the dallas apartment where relatives of ebola patient thomas duncan are quarantined. an american journalist who contracted ebola in liberia is now being flown to nebraska for treatment. and here in washington, howard university hospital says it has admitted a patient with symptoms that could be linked to ebola. we have complete coverage of both of these major stories from our correspondents and our guests. let's break down what we just heard with cnn's senior medical correspondent elizabeth cohen. elizabeth, you were listening to this. was there anything knew that you were hearing coming out of this
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press conference at the white house? >> i didn't hear a lot that was new. but i heard efforts to reassure the public that they are safe and that government officials are doing everything that they can. so for example, one of the officials said that they are confident they can stop this in its tracks. but people wonder, how did this man get through the liberia airport by just lying on his form? how does that happen? how did that hospital in dallas -- how did that happen that they sent the man home even though he had a history of traveling to liberia recently and also had a fever? how did they send him home? why did it take so long, days and days to get those dirty, infected sheets and towels out of their apartment? it was interesting. sylvia burwell said, this is all about execution, execution, execution. i think a lot of americans are wanting to see perhaps a higher level of execution. >> and we heard one of the questions there, elizabeth, was, look, when you look at this texas case, one of the reporters said people have questioned
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because you have ten people, i think, now who are at high risk and you have people who are related to or who know thomas duncan and they are essentially quarantined together in a congested area in this apartment and you have people going, is that really the right move here? and i didn't really hear an answer to that. sounded like they were saying, federal officials have given recommendations to local officials. but i didn't get the sense whether they were truly being followed. >> right. i think what you're seeing is you're seeing the sausage get made. this is the first time this has happened in the united states. so when i was talking to health officials about this in the past few months, nobody mentioned quarantining anyone. they said if if someone's a contact, as long as they're not sick, they're incapable of passing the disease. it's unclear to me why they felt the need to quarantine this family. they talked about them being uncooperative. i'm wondering if they were afraid this family was going to
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bolt and then they'd really be in trouble because they couldn't find them. but there wasn't a full and complete answer to this. >> let's go to the scene to our martin savidge who is in dallas where the ebola infected man stayed with his family. give us the latest there, martin? >> reporter: the clean-up hazmat team has been under way here for at least five hours now. it's a combination of the dallas county fire department, fire and rescue hazmat team working in conjunction with a private contractor. they've been doing a couple of things. first of all, they isolated the vehicle in the parking lot, completely sealed it up with plastic, presumably a vehicle that thomas duncan, the patient, may have had contact with. and they're going inside that apartment and they're cleaning and disinfecting and at the same time removing the items that have been talked about. people mentioned at the press conference about the missteps. one of the perceived missteps here on top of the delayed
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diagnosis was the fact, why did you leave four people inside of an apartment in a densely populated area with what may be contaminated sheets and towels? so they're trying to rectify that problem now. as to those that were quarantined, they still are quarantined. but it's believed they will be moved according to officials here. >> martin savidge for us in dallas, thank you so much. i want to get details now on the task facing that hazmat crew, really crews at that dallas apartment. joining me by phone is brad smith. thanks for being with us. explain what your cleaning team has been able to do. we heard martin talk about sealing up a car, removing some of those contaminated items. what more can you tell us? >> as far as sealing up the car, we made a decision to do that this morning when we came in so that we could work around it closely to keep from getting close to anything that was contaminated and not being fully
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encapsulated in a level "b" suit, as well as just protect the car from where we're working. at that time since then, we've been able to enter the residence with some trained technicians, encapsulated in a level "b" suit and remove some soiled items as well as starting to remove some of the bedding. >> so you're starting to remove some of the bedding. what does that mean, level "b"? that's what we see here, the yellow suits? >> yes, ma'am. fully encapsulated. the gray suits are level "b," the guys that are actually entering into the house. the yellow is a level "c." those guys are outside the house just as support. >> so level "b," more elevated secure suits they're wearing. how many crew members do you have in total working on this?
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>> right now, on scene is 12. we have some more behind-the-scene help as well. >> you said you're removing some of the soiled linens. what is the challenge there and does that take a considerable amount of time? >> well, so far, this is phase one, stage one is complete. that was our first entrance into the residence. we worked inside for 40 minutes. we came out to give our guys a rest for approximately 30 minutes. it's been a little longer now. it was not a challenge to find the items, clean the items -- put the items in the proper containment to get them out and transported. >> brad, tell us about -- there were delays in this. why were there so many? you were stopped from cleaning this infected apartment days ago. who was stopping the crew from doing this? >> well, as we know, this is the first time in texas that we've had to deal with this.
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so therefore the transportation of the waste has been the biggest issue. we are only here to clean the situation, to remove the items. we are not responsible for transporting the waste on d.o.t. highways. >> who does transport that and how will it be transported? >> that will be separate entities. i'm not sure who's transporting it. we're not sure who was awarded the contract or the agreement to transport it. but we are not the company transporting it. >> have your crews had any contact with people in the apartment who are considered perhaps high risk? >> yes, they have. they're in the apartment while we're working -- >> and what are they doing? >> they're just normal activities, watching tv, they're just there.
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>> so you're removing any -- do they have any concerns about items that they may have discovered? >> not that we know of, no, ma'am. >> are they exhibiting any symptoms that your guys can see? >> no. that's not our responsibility at all. we're not even concerned with that at all. >> and then how long does the cleaning take? you said you've done 40 minutes inside. there was a rest for 30 minutes. and then your crew members have gone back inside. what is really the expected time that this takes? >> it should be two more stages, stage two, we'll get in and take care of the bulk items, the mattresses, things like that. we'll get those moved, transported down to -- downstairs where they can be transported. then we'll go in for our final stage just to make sure everything's taken care of and go from there. >> will you be taking all of the mattresses in the apartment?
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>> i believe so. >> okay. brad smith, thank you so much. he's the vice president of cg environmental cleaning guys, which is employing the crew that is physically taking these contaminated items out of that apartment in texas where the confirmed ebola patient was living and also where his relatives are still staying at this moment. we have much more ahead on both of our major breaking stories here. the terrorist group isis just released a short video showing the apparent beheading of british hostage alan henning. at the end of the video, isis shows an american aid worker and threatens his life. we're also watching those hazmat crews working at the dallas apartment where the ebola-infected man stayed with his family.
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a u.s. intelligence official tells cnn that u.s. intelligence is aware of the videotape and looking into this as it has with other isis videotaped executions. this u.s. official says there's no reason to believe this latest videotape isn't authentic. the official had no comment on the threat to american peter kassig. alan henning is a taxi driver from england. he was prt of a team of volunteers that traveled to deliver food and water to the people affected by the war. last week, the british foreign office released an audio file of alan henning pleading for his life, his wife made a public plea for isis to spare his life as well. her appeals were joined by voices of muslim leaders around the world which made that sequence fairly extraordinary. if the authenticity of this video is confirmed, this is going to be the fourth westerner to be beheaded on camera by isis. this summer, isis beheaded
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american journalist james foley and steven sotloff. gruesomely showing their killings and videos posted online. then isis claimed its first british victim, david haynes. henning appeared kneeling in that video with an isis militant standing by his side. a lot of questions surrounding that militant that appears to be in all four of these videos. >> henning being called a big-hearted man. terrible news. britain's prime minister responding to the video calling isis barbaric. let's turn to karl penhaul and paul crookshank in new york. karl, what are you learning? >> reporter: looking at this video, something that jumped to my attention was that this video appears to be much shorter than the previous hostage beheading videos.
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this video runs at only about a minute, ten seconds. there is a short statement by alan henning, a very short statement by the man with the knife, the isis executioner, and no statement at all by american aid worker peter kassig. certainly apparent justification by isis for this beheading is because britain's parliament voted one week ago to join the u.s.-led coalition in striking isis positions. britain only striking isis inside iraq at this time. and that is the other thing perhaps that jumps to my attention in the other videos, there was also some key matter to locate when the execution, when the beheading may have taken place. but in this, the isis executioner states -- or talks about the british vote one week ago but nothing since then. that effectively could put the time of henning's death at any
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time between now and one week ago, brianna. >> paul, those are the things that karl has noticed. certainly this is shorter. we have some time markers in this video from isis. isis has a reason when they do this, when it comes to the timing. why now? >> well, this comes after the british parliamentary vote, as karl was saying. the british have now launched air strikes. so this is direct retaliation for those british air strikes on isis positions in iraq. they're sending a message to their supporters. it's going to be tit for tat. you kill our people, we're going to kill your people back. they're also trying to spread a message of fear here, brianna. >> karl, we learned as well about this other hostage, peter kassig, isis now threatening him. this has become formulaic in their videos. but there's a lot of video we have of this man. tell us more about him and this
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video that was taken in
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i can't tell you what the circumstances of his abduction were and what location he was abducted. those are certainly things we are looking at because like many other of these western hostage cases, kassig's case was also subject to media blackout. >> and this is as well a man with a big heart, we have learned he went back to the u.s., found going to school didn't give him enough purpose and he wanted to go back and help people who were suffering. paul, karl, thank you both. we have much more coming up on this story ahead. also coming up, three weeks after she disappeared, the search for a missing university of virginia student is now
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the search for a missing university of virginia student is expanding. this weekend marks three weeks since hannah graham disappeared. and cnn's athena jones is in charlottesville with the latest. this investigation has become a whole lot bigger, athena. >> reporter: that's right, brianna. today bad weather grounded the helicopters that are searching for hannah graham. but authorities say this weekend they expect as many as 150 people to come out and help look for her, part of a now
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weeks-long search. they hopefully they finally yield results. it's being called one of the greatest search efforts in virginia history. but there's still no sign of hannah graham. >> somewhere out there, there's a little girl that needs to come home. >> reporter: search teams are refocusing the effort on a eight-mile radius around charlottesville's downtown mall where hannah graham was last seen with jesse matthew, the suspect in her disappearance. and officials are hoping hunters can help search. >> we're asking hunters as they establish their deer stands, as they scout the property that they have permission to hunt on to be our extra eyes and ears. 167,000 eyes and ears would be most helpful to us in terms of finding hannah graham. >> reporter: questions are still swirling about whether matthew could be connected to other cases. his dna being compared to evidence in another murder case
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at the request of a lawyer for an already convicted killer seeking to be exonerated. law enforcement sources have said dna evidence links matthew to the murder of 20-year-old morgan harrington who went missing in charlottesville in 2009. and the fbi has said the suspect in the harrington case matched the dna profile from a 2005 sexual assault in fairfax, virginia. matthew has not been charged in those cases. authorities in cities across virginia are still reviewing unsolved missing woman cases for possible connections to matthew. no links have been foun. matthew's next court appearance is set for december. authorities say they have received more than 3,500 tips in this investigation. while they say they're not right now using that drone they brought out a couple of days ago because they need faa approval each time they use it, they do say that over the weekend, they expect to use aircraft with high-definition cameras to take
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photographs of the search area. >> thank you so much. let's get a clearer look now at the cases that could be connected with jesse matthew. joining me here in "the situation room" is tom fuentes, a former assistant director of the fbi. and we also have investigative journalist coy barefoot joining us from charlottesville. i want to point out, tom, these are -- all of these dots represent cases where women were either murdered or sexually assaulted and the cases were never solved. this is morgan harrington, disappeared in october of 2009. authorities have linked dna evidence to jesse matthew. you also have this case, this woman who survived but she was abducted and sexually assaulted in 2005. this was in fairfax city not far from washington, d.c. and the dna linked to that found on
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morgan harrington. you'll also see other ones, for instance here in lynchburg. cassandra morton, 23 years old, october of 2009. very close in time to when morgan harrington disappeared and her body was discovered, as well. these other cases, newport news, these were investigations of matthew when he was in college. so you're looking at all these dots. what does this tell you, tom? >> it tells me that the police want to be extremely diligent in reopening every investigation where there's a possible connection to matthew, even if they don't know of it right now. so these other cases, like newport news where he went to school, this incident happened but he wasn't charged and as the police said, it was a he said/she said. this is route 29 from fairfax all the way down this corridor here. it's about a two-hour drive from fairfax to charlottesville.
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but they have in common that he was a taxi driver at certain times or he worked at a place along route 29 where he was currently working at the university of virginia, charlottesville, along route 29. so that's what they have in common, the proximity to him and where he was at that point in his life. and in the case of morgan harrington, from charlottesville in 2009, to the woman in fairfax, is that dna linked these two cases. so the police at the time obtained dna, but they didn't have anyone to compare it to. so they had this dna, kept it on file that it was not the victim's dna but someone else had dna. >> now they have linked it. >> well, they've linked morgan harrington for sure to matthews. so that's the connection now, how far they go in those investigations to when they get to a point, will matthews be charged, particularly in the morgan harrington murder. her body was found a year later,
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and it was clear that she was murdered, that she was assaulted sexually. >> yeah. i want to bring coy into this quickly. you're talking to authorities there in charlottesville. how convinced are they -- obviously there's cases where there is a dna link, those are ones where there's more confidence. but how confident are authorities that matthew could be connected to all of these other missing women? >> i am getting from my law enforcement sources that there is an absolute commitment that they will not rush to judgment. they are doing solid police work here. that's slow and methodical and meticulous and deliberate, and they want to make absolutely sure they have the right guy. just a quick direction. morgan's remains, she went missing october 16, 2009 in charlottesville and her remains were discovered on a farm about ten miles south of charlottesville three months later. her shirt was not with the remains. her shirt was found about two
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weeks after she had disappeared, and interestingly enough, the farm where she was found was the location where mr. matthew used to party in high school. i actually spent some time last night with some people who know him very, very well and they said that l.j. is a camper. that he is, among all the friends that they have, that he is a guy who is very, very comfortable in the woods. he grew up here. and anybody who has spent time in central virginia knows that there are woods after woods after mountains after woods, and he knows these woods probably better than anybody. if, and police believe he does, if he has anything to do with the disappearance and abduction of hannah graham, she could be anywhere. but at this moment as i'm talking, she's out there and we're going to keep looking until we find her. >> important to note, of course, that jesse, l.j. as he's known, matthew is innocent until proven
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guilty. listening to what coy said there, these are all places, and we learned of some of these place where is he lived and went to school. the idea that this was an area where he would have partied in high school. >> right. he would be very familiar with the whole area. you see this mountain range that parallels route 29. that's skyline drive on top of that and shenandoah national park. so from charlottesville to front royal, virginia, the front of that is about 105 miles of mountains and forests where he also would be probably familiar with. but as coy mentioned, the police are going to be very careful and cautious in doing it. but in a sense, there is a certain desire to expedite the investigation, because if they bring charges in one of these other cases, it could give them additional leverage to put pressure on him to say, i'll take you to where hannah graham is, and then in exchange for not
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having the death penalty imposed. >> which is in play in virginia. tom, thank you so much. coy, thank you so much to you. coming up, our breaking news. stepped up efforts to prevent the spread of ebola in the united states. we're await agnews conference from officials in dallas where relatives of an ebola patient are under quarantine. ♪ ♪ [ female announcer ] with five perfectly sweetened whole grains... you can't help but see the good.
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happening now, breaking news. ebola fears, a patient showing possible symptoms now in the washington area as the white house seeks to reassure nervous americans. biohazard, especially equipped crew arrives at the dallas apartment where the first ebola patient in the u.s. stayed and where four people are currently
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quarantined. an isis beheading. a new video appears to show the murder of a british hostage and threatens the life of an american. we want to welcome our viewers in the united states and around the world. wolf blitzer is off this evening. you're in "the situation room." >> this is cnn breaking news. we're following two breaking news stories this hour. the apparent beheading of british hostage allen henning by isis. also spreading concern about the ebola virus in the u.s. with new reports of people showing symptoms, possibly associated with ebola in the washington, d.c., as well as the atlanta areas. an nbc cameraman in liberia with a confirmed case of ebola will be flown to omaha monday for treatment. in dallas, growing concern about the quarantined family of the first person diagnosed with ebola in the u.s. we're using cnn's global
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resources to cover the breaking news with our correspondents and our guests. a haz/mat team is now at the dallas apartment where the first ebola diagnosed patient stayed. cnn's martin savidge is on the scene. martin, you've been able to observe these crew members going in the apartment. >> reporter: correct, breanna. it's been an interesting scene. the good news is that the four people in quarantine are said to be in good health and showing no signs of ebola. that's the best news of all, because it means they are not transmitting the disease. the cleanup, it's taking longer than thought. maybe not a bigger surprise here. it's taken days longer just for the crews to show up. tonight, as haz/mat teams begin cleaning the apartment, duncan's partner and three relatives quarantined inside will be moved to another location according to
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the dallas county fire marshal. >> the family has been monitored. there's no outbreak. so therefore, everyone should ease their fears. >> reporter: the state of texas says it's now monitoring 50 people who were in contact with thomas duncan. while none have shown symptoms, all must check temperatures twice a day. today, the cdc reissued ebola guidance to all u.s. hospitals calling for vigilance and telling doctors to ask patients where they have traveled and isolate anyone with symptoms of the virus and visited an infected country in africa. >> we recognize the concern that even a single case of ebola creates on our shores. but we have the public health systems and the public health providers in place to contain the spread of this disease. >> reporter: officials say they are preparing for the arrival of yet another american with ebola.
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a cameraman nbc news hired in liberia earlier this week tested positive. he's scheduled to return to the u.s. sunday. >> there's the fear that he becomes sicker before we have a chance to transport him. that's the big concern that we have right now. >> reporter: he was in liberia filming a story with nbc's chief medical editor. >> he joined us 72 hours earlier as an independent journalist, and had been in the hospital -- had been in the country two weeks prior to that. so my suspicion is that he was infected before we met him. everyone here is hyper alert. no one shakes hands. there's no hugging. i do believe that our team, we are at very, very low risk. >> reporter: back here in dallas, officials are trying to clear up red tape. they are going to clear the believed contaminated items out
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of that apartment, but right now it's not clear how or who will transport it away and authorities will not say where. the other thing, those four quarantined family members are expected to be moved but officials have not said where they're going. >> they are inside that apartment as the crew is working to clean it out. martin savidge there on the scene, thank you so much. that's also concern about ebola here in the nation's capital. a patient who traveled to africa is at washington's howard university hospital. the symptoms he has could be associated with ebola. let's turn now to erin mcpike for the latest. what can you tell us? >> reporter: what i can tell you is that security has been extra tense around here this afternoon, as we await the results oh of a test to see if that patient does, in fact, have ebola. howard is not naming that patient, just saying the patient has shown some ebola-like
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symptoms and recently traveled to nigeria. i also say that howard university's president sent out a campus wide e-mail earlier today saying that, as you know, washington, d.c. is a major gateway for international travel, so they're taking all suspected potential cases very seriously, but called this patient low-risk. there was another suspected case also today in nearby rockville, maryland. but that was dismissed. the test results came back negative and that patient has some other illness. we are still waiting for the results of this test. i would say that in both of these cases, both hospitals said they worked closely with the cdc to monitor those individuals and following all the infection protocols very closely. >> they are airing on the side of caution. thank you for that report. top officials at the white house offered new reassurances about the federal government's response to the ebola outbreak. let's get more from cnn's
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senior -- actually, pardon me, let's bring in our senior white house correspondent jim acosta. he's at the white house. this was sort of a show of force that we saw there in the briefing room, jim. a number of top health officials with the obama administration trying to tell americans this is going to be okay. >> reporter: that's right. all this week, white house officials have been trying to calm a lot of jitters across the country because of this ebola outbreak in west africa and this first case here in the united states. but to no avail. so the late friday news conference, you've seen those before, breanna. this was led by the president's counterterrorism and homeland security director in terms of responses to those types of threats. she said that the american public should have confidence in the u.s. health care system's ability to stop this from becoming an outbreak in the u.s. and dr. anthony fouchy said that it would be extraordinarily unlikely that there would be an outbreak here in the u.s.,
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though he did say there's still a chance, he thinks there could be another chance of a u.s. case of ebola in the coming days. but since there were no initiatives and no new measures being announced here by the white house, dr. fouchy was asked why this press conference was held in the first place. >> now that it's in the united states, the concern is that i don't ever like to see people suffer and die. but as a medical professional who has witnessed and experienced the whole 38 years since 1976, i never say i'm not concerned, because that's interpreted as taking something lightly. i take nothing lightly. but i'm convinced by what we have all said today that the system that's in place, with our health care infrastructure, would make it extraordinarily unlikely that we would have an outbreak. >> reporter: the other thing that dr. fouchy said during that news conference is an ebola vaccine is being tested over at
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the nih as we speak. they should have the first result from the first phase of that vaccine later in november or december and there could be a trial period over in africa of that vaccine in the first quarter of next year. the other thing they talked about here at this press conference is whether or not there would be a travel ban affecting those countries in west africa. they said once again, no plans for a travel ban. they said that would be counterproductive in terms of this ebola response. >> or if maybe there would be a delay of the granting of visas. jim, thanks so much. let's get more now from our medical correspondent elizabeth cohen. you were listening to that press conference, elizabeth. that was really it. there is not going to be an outbreak very likely, that's what we heard. but there could be another case. but clearly officials not wanting americans to be too alarmed here. >> right. i think it's clear that there will be other cases.
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this was just sort of the classic nightmare. i spoke on this show about this in early august. i said the nightmare is that someone who is infected with ebola but not yet sick boards a plane to the u.s., gets here and becomes ill. that's what happened. there's the incubation period, so it's possible that could happen. what was interesting about that press conference is at the end, the secretary of health and human services said this is all about execution, execution, execution. to put it in my words, i would say the devil is in the details, right? so i think that's part of what has americans concerned is some of this execution hasn't gone so well. the hospital let a patient go home who has a travel history to liberia, is clearly lie peberiad has a fever. how can that happen? it took a long time to get those towels and sheets s out of tha apartment. we will be seeing other cases. >> it seems in a way, elizabeth,
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talking to cdc officials or even these administration officials, when they talk about the fact that lessons have been learned from this dallas case, it's almost -- there's almost like a sheepishness in sort of acknowledging that this was a messup severely on the case of local health officials in dallas. >> yes. i'm sort of in the way glad to see that they've acknowledged that and glad to see lessons can be learned. what disturbs me the most is the reaction by the hospital. on jake tapper's show, the lieutenant governor of texas said the wrong screen popped up and the electronic medical records, so we didn't see a travel history. it's bad luck. blame thing on bad luck is problematic. it's been problem in hospitals for a long time that little pieces of information get lost. a test result gets lost. the fact that someone is allergic to a medicine gets lost. that's not just bad luck, that's
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because things aren't as well organized as they should be and hospitals need to fix it. >> they sure do. elizabeth cohen, thank you so much. to find out more about ways you can find in this worldwide fight, go to more breaking news ahead. the apparent beheading of a british hostage by isis and the chilling thet to the life of an american. turn the trips you have to take,
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this is cnn breaking news. >> we have breaking news here in "the situation room." the white house just releasing a statement from president obama on this isis claim that it beheading allen henning, a british hostage. i want to read what we have here. president obama condemning this, what he calls a brutal murder and part of the statement reads, standing together with our uk friends and allies. we will work to bring the perpetrators of allen's murderers, as well as the murderers of the others to justice. standing together with a broad coalition of allies and partners, we will continue taking decisive action to degrade and destroy isil. i want to bring in now cnn's brian todd. you were working on this story and at this point, the president condemning this murder. but you also have a process where administration officials are trying to verify exact hill that this video. >> they say there is no reason to doubt it is authentic, but
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they're examining it very closely. each of these videos gives them more clues into the location and other pieces of information about isis that are crucial. u.s. and british officials responding with outrage over this video. british prime minister david cameron saying a short time ago that the murderer "shows just how barbaric and repulsive these terrorists are." lisa monaco says, this is just another example of isis brutality. the video to recap, released by isis a short time ago, showing the beheading of british aide worker allen henning. they also threaten the life of peter kassig. he was captured a year ago on october 1 on his way to eastern syria. a u.s. intelligence official tells cnn tonight that u.s. intelligence is very aware of this videotape, looking into it, examining it for clues, as it has with the other isis videotaped execution videos.
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this u.s. official says there's no reason to doubt tonight to believe that this videotape is not authentic. the official had no comment on the threat to peter kassig. allen henning is a taxi cab driver, part of a team of volunteers that traveled to syria in 2013 to deliver food, water, ambulances and other supplies to people affected by the civil war there. he was abducted the day after christmas by masked gunmen. last week, the british foreign office released an audio file pleading for his wife. his wife's appeals, also joined by voices of muslim leaders around the world, have weighed in, appealing to isis to release him. if the authenticity is confirmed, hen willing be the fourth werner to be beheaded on
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camera this summer. the group claimed its first british victim, david hanes on september 13. allen henning appeared kneeling in that latest video with a militant standing by his side. you have to be feeling for the family of peter kassig tonight. >> brian todd, thank you for your report. i want to get reaction from the uk. carl, allen henning is known to be a big hearted taxi driver, a father. this is someone who went to the region just trying to help people. what are you hearing there in britain? >> reporter: absolutely. this beheading will infuriate his friends. a couple of weeks ago, i was in his hometown in northern england and they know him as the taxi driver with the heart of gold.
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he did not have to be in harm's way, but he saw the suffering of the people of syria and decided to go with muslim friends and neighbors. it was the fourth aid convoy he had gone on down into that area. when the convoy came to the turkish-syrian border, organizers said who will volunteer to go into the danger zone? he was one of just ten men that decided yes, we will go into the danger zone because that's where we are most needed. these are the consequences. he was kidnapped and now he's been killed. >> karl penhaul, thank you so much. i want to bring in phil mudd and peter bergen. phil, let's talk about the timing here. this is the fourth werner killed since august. what is this about right now? is this about that -- the british parliament vote? >> i think this is about isis trying to engage, believe it or
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not, in a conversation, not only with the west, that is europe and the united states, but a conversation with potential recruits. you'll note in every one of these videos they start with the defense. it's not their fault from their perspective. that's what they're trying to tell recruits, it's the west's fault, it's the parliament's fault for voting. so they're trying to justify what they're doing as they prove to potential recruits that they are the baddest guys on the block. it's been consistent in every video. >> the other thing that's striking here and gut wrenching, peter, is that there was an audio file put out of henning's voice. obviously his family has been pleading for his life. why did isis put out that audio file? what was the point of that? >> what's the point of the whole enterprise here? if the idea is to try and put pressure on the united states and britain to do less in syria and iraq, this has backfired spectacularly. public opinion only changed on
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the issue of taking strong action in iraq and now potentially syria as a result of these beheadings. so it's a tactical victory that is going to lead to the long-term defeat. the whole thing doesn't make sense. >> it was the beheadings that -- you see isis trying to say we don't want you taking strikes near the mosul dam, going ahead starting with the beheadings. jim foley was first. and it completely turned american opinion in favor of intervening in a way that it was not there before. >> you look at public opinion polls. support for air strikes is high. support for boots on the ground is very low. when historians write the history of this james foley beheading, it's going to be the beginning of the end for isis. >> i wonder, phil, this unfortunately these videos from isis have become formulaic. at the end of this video, we see
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peter kassig, and isis threatens his life. this is someone who went to the region trying to help. is there anything the u.s. can do here? >> i don't think there's much. i don't want to comment on other hostages, but believe it or not, i spent my life trying to look at the eyes of the adversary. they believe their own propaganda. they believe they're inspired by god, so while this looks like wild propaganda to us, they believe it all. one more point picking up on what peter said, because i think he's dead on. this makes perfect tactical sense from their perspective. they're now seen as the biggest guys around the world in the world of counterterrorism, terrorism, insurgency. they're seen as the recruiting ground for vast numbers of recruits in europe and the united states. i've never seen anything like this in terms of the waves of westerners coming. but strategically, you cannot
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win if you alienate the local population. beheading and raping locals is going to heed to they are demise, because the locals will say enough. strategically, this is a tremendous blunder. >> they've filled a void, in a way, certainly in iraq, and now the question is, will that void be filled differently? will isis now have a total there? i wonder, peter, the question now is that we've seen this happen so many times, are we going to continue seeing this happen and how many western hostages does isis have? >> well, we know there are two americans being held by isis at least. there's another -- yeah, there's a limited number of westerners. we're not going to see this forever if they continue killing people. they do have two other american hostages. they do have a british hostage. there are nationalities that are public. unfortunately we will continue
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to see some of this. >> peter bergen, thank you so much. phil mudd, thank you as well. just ahead, new concerns that a dangerous power struggle is under way in north korea as kim jong-un is missing. and ferguson police are being replaced on the streets. we have details. ♪ who's going to do it? who's going to make it happen? discover a new energy source. turn ocean waves into power. design cars that capture their emissions. build bridges that fix themselves. get more clean water to everyone. who's going to take the leap? who's going to write the code? who's going to do it? engineers. that's who. that's what i want to do. be an engineer. ♪
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there are new concerns tonight that the regime in north korea is growing unstable. as kim jong-un remains missing. some are saying he's no longer in control. cnn's brian todd has been looking into this. >> reporter: last week, north korea said their leader was suffering from "discomfort" and he's missed some important government events. tonight, a new claim about his
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hold on power. i've spoken to a prominent defector who said kim is being controlled from behind the scenes. he's not been seen in public for almost a month, after being filmed limping, there are reports he's in poor health. now a defector tells me that he's not in charge. who controls the government? >> translator: the power holders of north korea a group called the organization and guidance department. >> reporter: the organization and guidance department, ogd, a shadowy, old-boy network tied closely to kim's father, the late kim jong-il. word that they're in control comes from a defector that spoke to me on the phone from south korea. he was an insider, a propagandist for kim jong-il who defected a decade ago. he said he has sources inside the regime. the organization and guidance
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department handles surveillance, the appointments and purges of top leaders. >> it keeps the files on everyone. that definitely makes it a very powerful and dangerous organization. >> reporter: and he says while they were loyal to his father, members of the ogd don't trust the younger kim. >> translator: they are calling the shots. and not the words of one man they do not know. basically they ear no longer loyal to the ruling king's word. >> reporter: north korea is one of the world's most closed societies. but kim's absence raises questions. >> if that group was in charge, would this regime be on the verge of collapse? >> it would be in a much more serious shape. then you would have power struggle as being the basic dynamic behind the regime, opposed to conducting foreign and domestic policy. >> reporter: but u.s. intelligence officials cannot confirm the credibility of the
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defector's claims. >> this is a top-down system. there is no number two. it is a royal system, crpredicad on the idea of there being a kim, dare i say a next of kim, being able to wield authoritative power from the top. >> reporter: but he says thedy appearance of kim from public vow is a real history. he says if kim has gout or a weight problem, at least the regime would show him sitting at his desk. but for almost a death, no traces of him, not even a propaganda video of him sitting down. so that's what is raising concern here. >> what is the latest on his health? >> reporter: the latest reports were that he's had a weight problem, that he might have diabetes. this runs in his family. gout runs in his family.
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of course, it's impossible to verify and he's nowhere to be seen. >> brian todd, thank you so much for your report. let's dig a little deeper. joining us is professor victor chau, the author of the book "the impossible state north korea past and future." when you look at this, that kim jong-un has been out of the spotlight for all of this time, what's your reaction? >> well, it's not unusual that he's been out of the spotlight. there have been other times where he has been missing. what's different this time is that it's a longer period. today marks one month that we haven't seen him. and the fact that he missed the supreme people's assembly, the major gathering of the party that provides these to the public inside of income
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demonstrative proof that he's in charge. for him to be missing there, to me at least means that something more serious than a broken ankle or gout. >> so you think it's probably a serious health issue. what do you think about this speculation there could be this power struggle between kim jong-un and this group of sort of the old guard that were loyal to his father? >> well, i think there are two theories out there. one is this idea that he is in ill health, probably from weight issues and from the stress of running a country, which is pretty stressful. and then the other is that there is this usurping of power by the ogd. this the a view that you sometimes here from european diplomatic personnel stationed in north korea. some evidence of this are pictures, propaganda pictures we
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see of kim jong-un that are unflattering pictures that show his girth or show the back of his head. these are all signs by the ogd that they are in control nor than this young fellow is. the thing is, we don't know which of these stories is true. the one other thing for sure is within the military, there's been a lot of turnover. at the chairman, the vice chairman of the joint chiefs, these sorts of management levels, there's been a great deal of turnover, which is a sign that there's some internal flux. there's fluidity inside the country when it comes to this power transition. >> there are so many rumors, north korea is paying attention to the coverage this is getting. what do you think the next move will be from north korea? >> i think the most important thing is that they will react, i think, to reports like this in the western press. the elite do monitor the western
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press. and if they see this and all the speculation, the first thing they're going to want to do if it's possible is to get the north korean leader back out on stage. if it's a broken ankle, sitting down at a table or something. but if they don't respond, it will increase the speculation that there is something truly wrong with him or something happening in terms of the power situation within pyongyang. >> you talk of this flux in government that appears to be going on. certainly that's sort of a general i think diagnosis of what's happening here. what does that mean, victor, when you're talking about north korea's nuclear program and concerns about that program? >> sure, i think it raises a great deal of concern. if this guy is no longer in play, we don't know that, but let's say that, there's no clear line of succession. we don't know who comes next. we can't even pick the people we think would be the next in line
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for power. if there's an internal power struggle, we don't know the security of the nuclear weapons, the security of the missiles and can be manifested in terms of acts against the south, either intentionally or inadvertently. so stuff that happens in north korea can happen folks on the outside in very bad ways. >> victor, thank you so much. just ahead, a brewing battle in ferguson. but it's not on the streets. media outlets are fighting the local police for documents. we're investigating the exorbitant price that officials are demanding for public records. and digging on why weeks after the shooting of michael brown, we still no so little about that august day. our panel is standing by to weigh in.
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we have breaking news out of ferguson, missouri. st. louis county police officers are taking control of security at all ferguson protests, replacing ferguson city police after weeks of fierce criticism from protesters. the transfer means the county police will be in charge of any arrests and filing any charges. tonight it appears a fight is peruing between some media outlets and the government. ferguson is trying to set exorbitant prices for government records that may shed more light on the shooting that sparked weeks of protests. >> reporter: the documents,
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including e-mails about ferguson police officer darren wilson, were requested by cnn and other news organizations to try and help the public understand exactly what happened the day of the controversial shooting. but today, in a response from the city, cnn was asked to pay a $2,000 deposit before the city would agree to even begin searching for the records, saying "there is a tremendous amount of work involved with researching whether records exist which are responsive to your request, analyzing the records, redacting the records if necessary and any copying that will be needed." under state law, cities are allowed to charge media outlets for finding and copying records. >> we have a very good law on the books that requires openness. >> reporter: is ferguson following that law? >> ferguson is really going out of its way to find any way not to make records easily accessible to the public, which is exactly the opposite of what needs to happen. with the unrest and the lack of
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trust, really what ferguson should be doing is going out of its way to make information available to the public. they can make records available, they're just choosing not to. that's troubling and contrary to what the sunshine law is supposed to encourage. >> reporter: since the shooting and protest in august, there's been controversy over police records pertaining to brown's shooting. the day brown was shot, the ferguson police department broke its own policy when its officers failed to file an officer involved shooting incident report. >> you're going to have to back up. >> reporter: the department later inflamed tensions when it waited a week to release the name of the officer involved, and then it released video of michael brown committing a robbery. now eight weeks on, the protests continue every night, and the mistrust with the police and the community grows.
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overnight, 13 people were arrested. and tonight, people here say if the grand jury decides not to indict darren wilson, things may get much worse. >> if there's not an indictment, excuse me french, but all hll is going to break loose. >> let's get more now with our panel. john gaskin, jeffrey toobin, and tom fuentes, who is also a former fbi assistant director. john, why do you think that these documents are so difficult to obtain? >> there could be a possibility that they have something to hide. you would think with all of the unrest within the city of ferguson, within st. louis as a whole, you would think that the best way to try to move forward, to try to ease some of that tension, would be to be as transparent and lawful as you can be. so to hide documents, to put up
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extra hurdles for networks like yours to get access to those documents to bring this type of information to the public eye, i think that's a problem and that makes people very concerned, makes me concerned, it makes our organization concerned to believe that they have a lot of information, a lot of information that they are trying to withhold from the public, because they're fearful of public reaction, i'm sure. >> it does seem that that may very well be the case, and you look at this, and we heard sara sidener's report. this is legal, but come on. >> i've had my own battles with the fbi about trying to get information from them. it's difficult, but this is absurd. and it only encourages exactly what john said, which is it suggests that there is something to hide in these documents, and it basically convinces the world
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that the ferguson police department is a mickey mouse operation that is trying to just fight everybody about everything instead of acting like an organization that wants to -- that's proud of what it stands for. >> what's the point, tom, i mean, eventually we assume these things are going to come out. so what is the point of throwing up an obstacle of putting out there that there has to be a $2,000 retainer before they get started on these documents? >> i think john has a point that whatever they release, whatever it indicates, will probably be inflammatory and lead to some trouble on the street, no matter what it says. i think that that's probably in the back of the mind of the people of ferguson to withhold the records or delay it or stall tactics or whatever. let's face it, this is not the library of congress. it's going to take about five minutes to pull those records out. >> that's a good point. >> it's deliberate to obstruct
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releasing anymore information which could be either appropriately or inappropriately received. >> is there any argument to be made that there should be legal proceedings that are able to continue at this point and perhaps putting some of that information outside of that sort of makes it difficult in terms of public opinion? >> courts -- sometimes people -- government agencies say we're not releasing the records because they are the subject of a criminal inquiry. there are sometimes exceptions under the law. but here, all they're saying is give us $2,000 before we start to look, which is just absurd. and so instead of making reasonable arguments, they're just thumbing their nose at cnn, at the ap, at everybody, which just leads more people to make bad assumptions about this police department. >> is that normal, tom, that idea of -- i definitely heard that there are copies, there are man hours that are put into this. but the idea of give us money
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before we're even going to start as sort of a down payment, is that something that happens? >> i was involved in the investigateions, not with record management, so i'm not sure if it's normal or abnormal. >> the fbi doesn't do it. >> but they're going to need another pr firm the way they keep going. >> at a minimum. >> yeah, at a minimum. stick with me, john gaskin is joining me. we're going to be talking more about this when we come back. we'll be talking about major change in policing in ferguson. this is a really big deal. st. louis county coming in for the protests. what impact will that have? we'll discuss it. how can i ease this pain? (man) when i can't go, it's like bricks piling up. i wish i could find some relief. (announcer) ask your doctor about linzess-- a once-daily capsule for adults with ibs with constipation or chronic idiopathic constipation.
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female announcer: recycle your old fridge and get $50. schedule your free pickup at: let's get more on ferguson missouri. with our panel we have john gaspy and jeffrey tubin and cnn law enforcement assistant director and, tom, you make a good point about what is happening now. you have security being transferred from ferguson police to st. louis county police and this seems to be ripe with problems, right? >> it does. >> because in the immediate aftermath of the shooting incident, ferguson police only has two nonarmored humvees from the military. so they didn't bring out the
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gear that caused trouble. that was the st. louis police department that caused so much of the issue that that equipment was brought out and put right in front of the protesters instead of hidden in a more discrete manner. and then after four or five days, the governor shows up and puts the missouri state patrol in charge, captain ron johnson. >> and this raise the policy issues raised by all of this and that is why are there so many small police departments around st. louis. is that a productive use of law enforcement? the failure to have a sort of centralized force, which might be more diverse than say the ferguson police department, is i think one of the precipitating factors is why people are so angry. and instead of consolidating, to have the small police departments is not a recipe for success. >> most people -- if i could interrupt one second. most people are not aware in the
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united states there are 18,000 separate police agencies and this goes back to the founding fathers. the fear wasn't efficiency of law enforcement, it was tyranny. and that is why all law enforcement is local, even down to the little towns. we grew up watching andy of mayberry. and that is a example of small departments because law enforcement is controlled by the local government and the police and the local towns people and then you have all of the tiny departments all over the country. >> but we've certainly the inefficiency of that. and i wonder, john, what is your reaction and the reaction of folks there on the ground when they're finding out that the very police department that really is -- i guess where we saw so many of the bad images in the early days of the protest, they are now in charge of security detail for ferguson protests? >> well i was just listening to what tom said regarding when the protests initially started and the images you saw on tv and in the press, i hope this is not
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adding insult to injury in this particular situation because let's just be transparent about this. many people in ferguson, protesters and people in the community, do not have much confidence in the ferguson police department, police in general. and so this weekend will really tell us where people within that community are sitting on this and it is my hope that the st. louis county police department will do a much better job than the ferguson police department has -- the ferguson police department has done in terms of dealing with protesters and especially in terms of communication. i think that is where many of the lapses have occurred, is communication. >> i wonder what you think, john, about this lawsuit? you have more protesters joining this lawsuit against the really -- against the use of force by police. what is their hope and do they realistically think that they are going to be able to get something out of this?
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>> well, now keep in mind, i am not an attorney. >> we have one though. >> absolutely. and many people are joining in on that lawsuit and i think that they certainly do have some credibility. you all have seen the images, you've seen the hog ties, the rubber bullets being used, the teargas and you've seen the way in which american citizens have been treated throughout this entire process. and so that raises many red flags and it is very concerning. >> and final word to you, jeffrey, do they have a case in this lawsuit? >> well their claims overlap with what the justice department is vuft -- investigating. so i think we'll know more about the validity when the justice department announces what it will do. that is the main investigation and that is the main case, if there is one. so that is the thing i think to keep an eye on. >> we will be keeping an eye. jeffrey, thank you, tom, john, thank you for joining us.
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and you can follow us on twitter at cnn sit room and join us on monday in "the situation room." you can watch us live or dvr so you don't miss it. erin burnett "outfront" starts right now. out front next, breaking news, one more horrifying beheading at the hands of isis. british aid worker alan henning murdered and the message tonight is an american hostage is next. and live from the se syria-turkey border. and thomas duncan, his family said he was never in contact with a pregnant woman dying with ebola. laetz go "outfront." good evening. i'm