tv CNN Newsroom CNN October 18, 2014 12:00pm-1:31pm PDT
>> i love that. lean in or bungee jump in. thanks for watching "cnn money." check us out on cnnmoney.com. have a great weekend, everybody. you are in the "cnn newsroom." i'm jim sciutto in new york. we begin in ferguson, missouri, and a new development in the case that triggered weeks of violence and protests there. "the new york times" reporting today that forensic tests found michael brown's blood inside the patrol car of the officer who shot him on august 9th. in fact, for the first time we're hearing what officer darren wilson said about what happened inside the car on that day. minutes later outside the unit, wilson killed brown who had no weapon. we want to turn now to cnn's ted rowlands in ferguson, missouri. ted, these new details, they seem to back up what officer
wilson has said, the reasons for him fearing for his life. >> reporter: yeah, absolutely, jim, and it's a much different narrative than we've heard from other eyewitnesses saying that mike brown was basically held by officer wilson. this version of events, and this comes from "the new york times," it came from a federal source with knowledge of the investigation and specifically knowledge of what officer wilson told the grand jury in september during a four-hour deposition. basically saying that wilson told this grand jury that he was pinned in his own car by mike brown and that there was a struggle for his gun, that mike brown reached into the car, specifically the source told "the new york times" that officer wilson told the authorities that mr. brown had punched and scratched him repeatedly, leaving swelling on his face and cuts on his neck. and this source also told "the new york times" that the fbi analysts found blood in the car on wilson's gun, the interior
door panel of the car and on wilson's uniform. it is a much different story than what we have heard from eyewitnesses that saw the aftermath specifically of what happened here. and the bottom line here, jim, is this adds that other side to the story, specifically what darren wilson is saying happened to this grand jury. we should point out that cnn has reached out to sources but has not been able to confirm these reports at this time. but very, very interesting detail for the first time we're hearing from this "new york times" article. >> no question, ted. what's interesting here, it's not just that account that we're hearing from wilson but forensic evidence that supports in some way the account in that there was evidence of something happening inside that police car, the blood on the officer's uniform, forensic evidence that the weapon was fired twice inside that car. now, that still leaves open the question, of course, as to what led to the struggle inside the car because other witnesses have
said that the policeman, in effect, pulled michael brown in. the policeman claiming here that michael brown took a shot at him inside the car. that's the essential difference there. >> reporter: yeah. doreen jo-- dorian johnson said officer wilson pulled back in his car, pulled so close to him that when he tried to open the door, it hit mike brown and he bounced back. that's how, according to wilson, was trapped inside his car. he then says that officer wilson grabbed mike brown. mike brown broke away, tried to flee and that wilson got out of his car, chased him down and shot him in cold blood. now, the biggest frustration here on the ground here in ferguson, especially after this article, is the process. people here are frustrated that this is a grand jury and that the st. louis county prosecutors didn't go through a preliminary hearing because all of this would have been out in the open. people could judge it for themselves. but being a secret grand jury has just created a lot of
tension here. and people just don't trust the police, and frankly, the process. >> yeah. and as it turns out, not so secret either because someone's clearly leaking details from inside what should be a secret proceeding. thanks very much to ted rowlands in ferguson, missouri. i want to bring in our experts to talk about what these new details could mean in this case. turning now to cnn legal analyst paul callan and joey jackson. paul first, looking at this, you still, at the end of the day, have two very differing accounts here. you have evidence that puts both of them in the car, right? the gun going off there. you've got explosive -- gunshot residue as well as michael brown's blood on the police officer's uniform. so you know he was in there somehow. the only question is, was he dragged in, or did he take a lunge at the officer? do these new details, in your view, move the dial in the -- in either direction towards officer wilson's account or other witnesses' account? >> i have to say, it moves the dial slightly toward wilson's account. and i say that because there are
no surprises here. we both men -- all of the witnesses indicated there was a struggle. the gun went off. so it's not surprising that there would be blood on the gun. there's not surprising that there would be gun on wilson -- there be blood on wilson and blood on mr. brown as well. but here's what's different. there are scratches on the officer's face. and that's starting to build up the idea that brown was the assailant, that he was resisting arrest and that the officer was pursuing him in good faith. when they look at part two, which is the critical part, that's the part where they're going to decide whether to indict or not. and was the suspect surrendering, or was he attacking? and that we don't know what the testimony is. >> here's a question for you. because does what happened in the car -- let's say that, in fact, it was michael brown who was the aggressor inside the car? once you remove yourself from that period and you get to the point where brown's outside the car several feet away -- >> bingo. >> -- does that -- does a jury separate those two?
do they have to? >> you have to separate the two. and here's why, just partway slightly with what paul callan said although what he said is absolutely on point and imperati imperative. what happens, jim, there are two separate occurrences here. clearly it matters. what happened at that car? was there a struggle? how did it ensue? who was the aggressor? why did officer wilson take out his firearm? why did he discharge the firearm? all relevant and critical questions, jim. however, the crux of the matter is the last thing that paul callan suggested, and that is what happened outside? in the event that there was a struggle and there was a discharge of a weapon inside, that explains one part. but now we get to the critical issue. the focus needs to be at the time that the fatal shots were fired, two questions. was he a threat? was officer wilson in imminent fear of his life? that's question number one. number two, was the force that he used proportionate to the threat that was posed? and that's going to be the issue irrespective of what occurred inside that vehicle. >> legally it doesn't matter.
so legally it doesn't matter what happened in the car? >> let's talk for one minute about how human beings look at these things. >> that was going to be my question. as a juror, are you influenced by that? >> as opposed to the law. and i think i have to agree with joey jackson completely on the law. but here's why the dial moves for officer wilson. if the grand jurors are looking at this and they're saying you know something? this officer was attacked. he was attacked by somebody who tried to take his gun, who maybe was trying to kill him. they're going to give officer wilson the benefit of the doubt. >> in their heads -- >> in a subsequent encounter. maybe they're not supposed to do that as far as the law goes, but that's how human beings are, and i think they'll cut the officer more slack, and this moves the dial in his direction. it's not over by any means. >> you know the way juries work as well. >> two things. first, any lawyer can spin it in any direction. if you have paul arguing for the prosecution, obviously it's a different narrative he'll put on it. if you're arguing for the defense, the other. here's what it comes down to. in the event that it goes to the
issue of state of mind, was he being attacked, officer wilson? was he scratched? beaten? swollen? that's one thing. but now at the time that he fired the shot, was it revenge? was he upset? was he annoyed? did he do it for that reason? or did he do it for the legally justifiable reason of being under attack? and that's the issue. and if you're the prosecutor, then perhaps you spin it and say he was vengeful at that time. he was beaten in the car, so he needed to get him. and also what will matter is where was the gunpowder, if any? was there gunpowder residue found? we know it wasn't found on the body based upon dr. baden's autopsy, but was it found on the clothing? because that will give us a sense of how close or how far officer wilson was at the time the shots were fired. >> he's pretty close if you're inside the car. >> i'm speaking of -- >> later. >> later, outside when he actually got killed. >> the real thing is when he had his hands up like that, was he surrendering, or was he charging the officer getting ready to tackle him? and the officer, i presume, has
probably said he was coming at me trying to tackle me. whereas eyewitnesses are disputing that. and who is believed is going to say who gets indicted in this case? >> as you both make a point, there's still a lot of questions to be decided. >> always. >> as you say, this moves the dial perhaps slightly, but not more in people's minds than the letter of the law is. >> and i say, jim, you have to look at the forensic evidence because darren wilson -- and i'm not casting aspersions on him -- but he's an interested witness as a matter of law. he's interested in the outcome of this case. and therefore he has a motive to fabricate. and so we have to look, what does the evidence show? was there gunpowder residue? was there not? what do the other witnesses show? was he charging, or was he surrendering saying, i'm giving up? why are you shooting at me? so that's critical. >> a long way to go. thanks very much. interesting developments in ferguson. coming up, the doctor who treat treated the ebola patients is speaking out for the first time.
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welcome back. the ebola fears are far-reaching, from a cruise ship off texas to the airline industry to america's hospitals as well. two nurses who contracted ebola while treating thomas duncan are recovering now at hospitals specially equipped to handle ebola cases. nbc cameraman is improving as well day by day. a carnival cruise ship is steaming back to galveston, texas, with a lab supervisor who treated duncan on board. she's symptom-free, she says, and in good health, but is still in the possible window for those ebola symptoms to develop. and a few groups of people are still being closely monitored. 29 people in ohio who came into contact with vinson, the nurse. some 50 others associated with texas health presbyterian hospital which treated duncan and 87 people who flew on the plane with the nurse amber
vinson. hundreds of others have been contacted by the airline after flying on planes after vinson had flown on them. one of the frontier flaens vinson flew on has undergone a hazmat and a heavy-duty cleaning. a cnn crew was on board today. you're seeing it there now as they demonstrated how thorough that cleaning is. all this as the government of canada plans to ship 800 vials of its experiment to ebola vaccine to the world health investigation in geneva beginning with its first shipment on monday. now, the texas doctor who was instrumental in treating three ebola patients and who appeared in an emotional video with one of them is now speaking out. janet st. james of our affiliate wfaa in dallas has the exclusive interview. >> reporter: the voice telling nina pham not to cry hours before the 26-year-old ebola-stricken nurse was to be
transferred to maryland belongs to her doctor, gary weinstein. >> i'm just a normal guy. >> reporter: but the self-professed ordinary guy, a father and a fiance, has lived an extraordinary and some might say scary 18 days. as chief of pull mof pulmonolog helped guide treatment for vinson, pmam and duncan. people will be worried that i'm sitting here with you. what's your temperature? >> well, i have taken it four times today. the most recent one was 92.2. 97.2. >> reporter: i was not worried as we sat for an exclusive interview. by the time dr. weinstein became involved in the hospital's ebola crisis, thomas duncan was on dialysis, intubated and unconscious. the nation's best experts on ebola had had helped choose an experimental medication, but it did not work. did you know he was dying?
and that it was imminent? >> it was very, very quick. he was critically ill and unstab unstable, and over a period of minutes, he lost his pulse. and was dead. >> reporter: many people have said that thomas duncan was not treated as well as he should have been because he was black and uninsured. >> i find that remarkably insulting. that's -- i don't know how better to describe that. the team here worked their tails off to try and save his life. >> reporter: do you think you tried everything you could? >> yes. >> reporter: do you think he could not be saved? >> yes, he was too sick.
>> reporter: and then two days later, nurse nina pham showed up with a fever, and what everyone hoped was a cold. >> sunken, felt horrible for her. >> reporter: what was her reaction when she heard? >> she was scared. it was scary. she risked her life to care for a patient, and now she's afraid for her life. >> reporter: you couldn't even give her a hug. >> certainly not -- certainly not like you'd want to hug, hug through a couple layers of plastic is probably not as comforting as she needed. >> reporter: did you do that? >> you bet i did. >> reporter: dr. weinstein says the entire time he was involved with nina pham, thomas duncan and amber vinson, everyone on the team was wearing hazmat gear from head to toe. they all believed they were fully protected. so how do you think it happened?
>> i think that these two nurses took care of a critically ill patient at a time when he was not in control of his body fluids and at a time when the recommendations from the cdc that we were following did not include the full respiratory mask. i don't know that. but that's what one person thinks. that's me. >> reporter: the cdc friday night confirmed to news 8 that changes to the protective equipment required for ebola treatment are imminent. because of what was learned inside texas health presbyterian. for now dr. weinstein is worried about his hospital's reputation. his colleagues' damaged practices, and the people who voluntarily put their own lives on the lines. >> these nurses, these therapists, they are truly
heroes. this has not happened before, and they selflessly gave of themselves to care for these patients. and they shouldn't be shunned. >> a defense of the hospital that treated that first u.s. patient of ebola, i'm joined now by dr. daniel boush for the u.s. naval medical research unit 6 in lima, peru. thanks very much for joining us, doctor. >> you're welcome. >> so you hear this spirited defense of the texas presbyterian hospital, including dr. weinstein's charge that they were following what they were told by the cdc, for instance, that they did not -- that the doctors treating the ebola patients did not have to have their necks covered by her hazmat suits. do you think he makes a credible defense of how this hospital handled these ebola cases? >> i don't think it's a matter of defense as much -- this was a very difficult position to be
in. this patient showed up. it wasn't a center that was prepared to have a patient with ebola. a very difficult situation. training needed to be done very rapidly. reactions needed to be done quickly. this is not something that is incredibly difficult to do, but most people have some preparation and some training to go after this. and do it carefully. i don't think it's so much an issue of what ppe, that is personal protective equipment, was worn, but more about whether the people really had the time to absorb the training and be able to do it safely and clearly in this situation they did not. >> let me ask you this. because i've spoken to cdc officials, nih officials, dr. fauci, the head of nih infectious diseases department who before we had this first u.s. case, assured me and others, they said, listen, the difference between us and africa is that our hospital systems are better, better funded, better trained to respond exactly to cases like this. but in the last couple of weeks, we've seen the holes in those
response. and i know the government is rushing to change, to fix, to close those holes now. but doesn't this get under -- doesn't this defeat that argument, saying that our health care system was prepared properly to respond to this, and quickly? >> no, i don't think so. clearly there were some missteps. and obviously, this is tragic, potentially tragic for the people who were infected, although the two nurses seem to be doing fairly well. i think we've learned some things. this is not an easy disease to treat and to deal with if you don't have that experience. we're trying to change a little bit, the approach, perhaps, now to make sure that we are focusing the care in some of the centers that have time to do the training. so were there missteps or things that we need to correct? definitely. but i don't think we're faced with a crisis situation where we need to change everything that we thought we knew. there's something behind this. we understand a lot about this virus. we need to keep on and acting on those principles.
>> doctor, please stick around because i want to dig deeper including the fears. was it complacency? incompetency? that allowed ebola to spread here in the u.s. we'll ask that and other questions right after this break. huh, fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. everybody knows that. well, did you know you that former pro football player ickey woods will celebrate almost anything? unh-uh. number 44... whoooo! forty-four, that's me! get some cold cuts... get some cold cuts... get some cold cuts! whooo! gimme some! geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. whoo! forty-four ladies, that's me! whoo...gonna get some cold cuts today! before we craft it into a sandwich. the amazingly tender roasted turkey -- always raised without antibiotics, the zesty cranberry mostarda, the freshly baked flatbread... but here's what you don't always see. the care and attention that goes into it.
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now, then ebola has the potential to become a scourge like hiv or polio, that we will end up fighting, all of us, for decades. >> that's secretary of state john kerry warning of what could happen if the world does not get this ebola outbreak under control and quickly. but from the nurses' lack of protective gear at that dallas hospital to the cdc approving travel plans for a nurse being monitored for ebola, some question whether incompetency is what caused the virus to spread so far. we're joined again by dr. daniel boush joining us from peru. you work with some of the most deadly diseases around the world. i just wonder if you've been surprised by how the cdc and the u.s. health care system have responded so far to this threat. >> i'm not surprised, which i'm not saying that there haven't been missteps. but i still think that we need to keep the focus -- the major
problem here, where the fire is raging is still in west africa. that's where we need to keep our focus. we need to do better here in the united states and preparing what we're ready for. we also really need to, what i've seen in the news a lot of doing one thing or another out of, quote, an abundance of caution. i think that's confusing people. i think that's clouding really what we though about the science. when we say this disease is not casually spread, for example, and then we close a school, what message does that give? i think that really erodes the confidence that we have. we need to use the science and act on that. but i think we're more than capable of doing that. i still do not believe we're going to have a large outbreak of ebola in the united states. and we need to not lose our focus of where the real problem is here still in west africa. >> as i was driving into the studio today, i was talking to my father who was planning a trip to canada next week to visit friends. he said we're thinking about canceling because of fears of ebola. i said i'm not a doctor, but
there's no reason to. chances of being on a plane next to someone who has the disease is extremely low. do you think that the fear in the u.s. has gotten out of whack far ahead of the actual threat? >> i do indeed. i think that the threat to this country is still very small. it's not zero. we know how this is spread. this is spread by blood and bodily fluids, so health care workers, people taking care of a sick person, we know it has to come from west africa. it's not a disease that's circulating here in the united states. even on a plane, a person who's not severely ill is unlikely to spread this disease in my opinion. and so i think your father should go to canada. i think we should stop worrying about contacts of contacts of contacts of contacts and really make sure we're focusing on the science and where the problem really is. >> and a big day will be tomorrow because that's 21 days since the people who treated duncan will have passed that window, that incubation period. we'll have an indication tomorrow if there are further cases in the u.s.
thank you very much, doctor. i appreciate your expertise on this. >> thank you. >> and your calm, wise advice. another day of violence between isis militants and kurdish fighters in syria, but now there are new reports that isis has taken to the skies. we'll have the latest right after this. ♪ i found a better deal on prescriptions. we found lower co-pays... ...and a free wellness visit. new plan...same doctor. i'm happy. it's medicare open enrollment. have you compared plans yet? it's easy at medicare.gov. or you can call 1-800-medicare. medicare open enrollment. you'll never know unless you go. i did it. you can too. ♪ come from all walks of life. if you have high blood sugar, ask your doctor about farxiga. it's a different kind of medicine that works by removing some sugar from your body.
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allegations today that former iraqi security forces are now training isis militants to fly warplanes. a london-based group says isis is using three syrian warplanes that were captured from a base outside aleppo in syria. plus, the intense efforts by isis mill stants to capture the embattled syrian city of kobani is actually helping the u.s. i'm joined by chris dickey, author of "securing the city" and foreign editor of "the daily beast." interesting developments in the last 24 hours, some of them concerning, some of them positive. kobani, if you look at the latest reports on the ground from syrian kurds fighting isis, they say that isis fighters are now mostly outside of the city after a punishing couple of weeks of air strikes. is this an early victory in syria from the u.s.-led air campaign? >> well, maybe, except that all the villages around kobani are still controlled by isis, and the question is how far can you
push them back? can you push them back so far and so consistently and so permanently that they'll never move in again? you know, the world's attention tends to shift, and sometimes the bombing campaign shifts as well. so if we see a lull in the fighting, isis pulls back but stays in those villages around kobani, they could just wait until things calm down and then try and move in very quickly again. they're very, very good tacticians. and i don't think we should feel that they've been defeated yet in that area. >> bobl to hold that territory without constant pressure from the air. and i've been told by u.s. military officials a number of times that isis is changing its tactics, the way it moves, the way it communicates, et cetera, to avoid that targeting. but it was interesting because centcom commander general lloyd austin, the one in charge of the u.s.-led response,es on the positive side, isis is helping the u.s. by giving them more targets. have a listen to how he explained this.
>> the enemy has made a decision to make kobani his main effort. and what you've seen him do in the last several days is continue to pour manpower into that effort. it's highly possible that kobani may fall. but again, i think the things that we have done here in the last several days are encouraging. and we're seeing the kurds actually fight to regain territory that had been lost previously. >> so a few things this there, chris, some good, some bad. but he said because isis was focusing so many resources, funneling a lot of fighters towards isis to attempt to take it, that that gave more targets to u.s. warplanes and coalition warplanes from the air. i suppose the trouble is, they've got a pretty big pipeline of fighters. they can keep doing that for weeks and months on end. >> well, jim, that's exactly right. and i think it's very worrisome that we are now saying that
kobani is isis's main target. at the same time, we know that isis is making a lot of advances in anbar province, much deeper into iraq, and we know that they are also making a lot of advances around aleppo. isis is on the move, and not only around kobani. if they really are focusing their best troops on kobani and putting them in exposed positions where the americans can blow the hell out of them, great. i just am not sure that that's the case. i think that they do have a big pipeline of troops, a lot of people willing to go right on the front line and die. and frankly on the other side, on the iraqi side, on the free syrian army side, on the turkish side, there are not a lot of troops willing to do that. i think we can thank god that militias that are fighting kobani who have been willing to go toe to toe, day after day, week after week are just about
the only fighters in the region who with willing to do that. >> that's right, because we certainly haven't seen iraqi forces doing that. in fact, there's been criticism from u.s. commanders around anbar that they're not taking any offensive operations against isis. and that's with u.s. and coalition airpower in the skies above them. >> it's worse than that, jim. there's a huge problem in the iraqi army with what they call astronaut soldiers. they are soldiers who pay off their officers, basically give their officers part or all of their salary so they never have to go near the front lines. those officers will tell the government, yeah, we're taking 500 men into battle. in fact, they're paying 300 men into battle and collecting the salaries of the 200 who bought them off. i mean, it's a really lousy situation. and not the kind of thing you want to rely on to go up against zealots like the fighters in isis. >> no question. that's after years and billions of dollars and a lot of u.s. blood training those very iraqi forces. thanks very much to christopher dickey joining us tonight from
add brand new belongings from nationwide insurance and we'll replace destroyed or stolen items with brand-new versions. we put members first. join the nation. ♪ nationwide is on your side the u.s. may be having some successes pushing back the isis onslaught around kobani in syria with airstrikes. in iraq, however, the situation very different, particularly in anbar province just to the west
of the capital. there the fights with militias against isis taking place on the streets. our own cnn's ben wedeman got a firsthand look. he went out with those militias defending the iraqi capital. >> reporter: the road is pockmarked from shelling. many of the homes scarred by bombs and bullets. volunteer fighters from the consortium of shia militias patrol through an agricultural community southwest of baghdad. they control everything up to the banks of the euphrates, the bridge over the river has been destroyed. isis controls the far bank. 3 1/2 weeks ago, these militiamen and the iraqi army drove isis out. only now are some civilians beginning to return. "we left before isis arrived after we received threats, says the man.
says his neighbor, we only left with the clothing we were wearing. moments later, we hear gunfire, perhaps just a case of twitchy trigger fingers, perhaps isis. even if people wanted to return, many of the houses are unsafe. sappers, the guys who de-mine places, haven't come here yet so they don't want ugg to go inside because a lot of these houses were booby-trapped. some of the civilians in this predominantly sunni area left with isis as it retreated. an iraqi colonel fought isis in this area and says many among the enemy are not from here. the majority, he says, let's say 60%, are arabs, mostly saudis,
then tunisians, some libyans and some egyptians. isis has pulled out of here, but they're not gone. the army controls this area, says the officer, but at night isis tries to infiltrate. while iraqi forces have steadily lost ground elsewhere, here the troops and militiamen are upbeat with time for a bit of humor. all right. so if you look here, they've written on this donkey, this little one, on the other side, it's written "abu bucket baghdadi," which is, of course, the name of the caliph, so-called caliph, of the islamic state. speaking of which, militia colonel has a message for the leader of isis. bring it on.
from here all the way to mosul, whatever he wants to send my way, roadside bomb, a sniper, go ahead, he says. that's my message to him. a bit of territory regained in this small corner of iraq, but the road ahead is long and dangerous. >> joining us now live from baghdad is ben wedeman. the story we will hear from u.s. officials consistently here is that while yes, iraqi forces in anbar and elsewhere have not done so well, frankly, against isis, that those units around baghdad are of a different quality, a different level of commitment, and because they're so much better, baghdad is not under threat. after spending the day with them, did you leave there with confidence that they could defend the city? >> reporter: certainly many of them, they have a personal stake in defending the city. after all, this is where they
and their families live. but what was interesting in that story is that that area is predominantly sunni, and the shia militias are obviously shia, and there's not a lot of warm feelings between the two. and therefore, you know, in the sunni areas, they're very hesitant to have shia militias come in because oftentimes they complain they come in as an occupying army. so there's that element to worry about. and so far what's important, and i think even u.s. officials have noted it, isis has not really made a concerted effort to penetrate the defenses of baghdad. so really, the iraqi army, the militias have not been put to the test yet. where they have been put to the test, as we've seen time and time again in anbar province, which is now 80% under the control of isis, is that the iraqi army, when pushed to the wall, finds a hole and runs away.
the track record is not very good, to be quite frank. >> no question. the other thing we hear from u.s. officials is just concern that anbar could fall, that it's very much under threat, and i believe the estimate's now 80% under isis control. ben wedeman's right in the middle of it in baghdad. thanks very much for joining us. coming up next, what is next for bentley? he's the dog of the ebola patient, nina pham. you may recognize my next guest. he's author and host of "monsters inside me" on animal planet. hear why he says bentley should be euthanized immediately. first, we're going to have more. ♪
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we'll get the latest on the spread of ebola at the top of he the hour, but first we want to talk about the pets of the women infected with ebola. a nurse's aide in spain, she catches the virus and her dog was taken away and put to death. a nurse in texas catches ebola and her dog is taken away and put into quarantine, he survives. are these concerns over the contact between animals and humans justified? is it a real risk? i want to bring in dan riskin, a biologist and author of "mother nature is trying to kill you" and hosters of "monsters inside me" on animal planet. one of the first questions is do these dogs pose a health risk if they've been in proximity, as they would with their owners,
does it make health sense to euthanize them as a precaution to save pooerm from getting infected? >> the first thing you have to know about ebola is that it absolutely can jump between species. that's its m.o. that's how it rolls. that's writ came from. we got it from other animals. it got into humans. chimpanzees get the disease. it kills them. gorillas get the disease. it kills them. so the question is can it get into a dog and can it get from a dog into more people and spread the disease. the answers are for the first question can it get into a dog, yes. they've shown that dogs in africa in places where ebola outbreaks have happened, the dogs have immune responses that indicate that they have been exposed to the ebola virus and the ebola virus has gotten into their bodies. so we know that part is possible. as to whether they can pass it on to more people, we don't know. there is no -- there are no data on that at all. so i think that in spain, they
absolutely made the right call. i love dogs. i think bentley's adorable. it breaks my heart to think of bentley being put down. but ebola is worse. ebola is really scary. and if you have a dog that could very really pose a threat, i think that you have to take the safe route because people's lives could be at stake. >> so why would spain make that decision to euthanize the dog as it did, the dog of the nurse there, and the u.s. not do the same thing here? in fact, they're letting the dog be taken care of by the hazmat company that cleaned her apartment. why the difference? >> i don't know. i'm surprised that they've take than route in texas, and i'm not sure it's just that there's not a policy in place. i'm sure if you went around and asked the cd cdc you'd get a variety of opinions. it's one thing to put it in quarantine for a few days or 21
days, whatever they're talking about, but there's no reason to -- we don't know that the quarantine period for a dog has any correlation to the quarantine period far person. it's quite possible that the dog -- it's quite possible the dog, if it doesn't get sick in the first 24 hours is going to be fine, and it's also possible that a dog can hold on to that virus for three months before it starts to get sick. or it's possible the dog doesn't sick, it's just fine, but every time it poops on the sidewalk it dumps a whole bunch of virus. then what happens to that? when this is all said and done, and i hope the nurse is fine, i wouldn't want that dog pooping on my lawn. that's what it comes down to. they can test the dog to see if its immune system has come into contact with eeb lashgs but i don't feel like i would ever be 100% sure because no one's ever done controlled studies on dogs and ebola in this way. >> waste is where it has some of the highest concentration of the virus and that's why nurses and other health care workers in such proximity the possibility of getting the disease. i wonder, you handle pets all
the time. people love their pets. i love dogs as well. they have a very emotional connection to them. at the same time there's an emotional response to this disease. there is a lot of fear, some of it undue. in your view, is this drive to euthanize the pets as a precaution, is it part of that unjustified fear or is it a justified fear? >> well, i mean, when all is said and done, this dog probably isn't going to make that bag difference. even if it does carry the virus and even if it did lead to one or two more people getting the virus, i think that's all that would happen. on the other side of the world, though, we have the world health organization saying we're going to be looking at 10,000 new cases of human ebola every week, and that is the raging out-of-control fire that everybody needs to face. i mean, we're all looking at north america and saying are we okay if a spark lands on our field to stop it from becoming a big fire, but if there's a raging fire in the field on the other side of the planet and we need to put that fire out so no more sparks are coming this way.
really, the dog is a little bit of a distraction. i think that the dog is a hazard, but i think that the amount of effort that's put into thinking about this dog, let's just throw some money at this and try to get the disease cured in west africa where it's really killing people. >> understood. wildfire. that's a metaphor a lot of people are using because it does spread so quickly and hard to put out. thanks to dan rifkin. great to have you on. >> thank you. we'll get at that question -- is the fear of ebola worse than the actual disease? that's after this break. at t-mobile,
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>> too spicy for you? >> no. it's good. >> very spicy. >> no. i like it. what i found when i first came to this part of the world, vietnam in particular, my palate changed. i needed an elevated level of chilies and heat. >> you are in the cnn "newsroom." i'm i didn't mean sciutto in new york. we begin with the far-reaching effects of the ebola outbreak from a cruise ship off texas to the airline industry to america's hospitals. right now carnival cruise ship is steaming back to galveston, texas weather a lab supervisor who may have come into contact with the ebola virus. hundreds of others have been contacted after flying on planes that an ebola patient, amber vincent, flew on. vincent and nina pham are now
recovering in specially equipped hospitals. meanwhile, the world health organization is declining to comment on a scathing internal document on their response to ebola. all this as the governor of canada plans to ship 800 viles of its experimental ebola vaccine. a cruise ship carrying a dallas lab worker who had indirect contact with thomas duncan is on its way back to galveston, texas. the governor refused to allow the lab worker to come ashore and in a sense enacted a travel ban on people traveling at all from west africa. want to bring in cnn's alexander field. alexander, this is an interesting case. you have this work, first of all, with something of indirect contact with -- didn't actually treat him the, touch them, et cetera, also making a decision herself to kind of quarantine herself and then you have this whole other layer, the u.s. and belize -- what do we know about this case? >> this is a passenger who worked in the lab at the hospital, may have handled a
specimen from the ebola patient, eric thomas duncan. >> just a specimen. >> right, showing no symptom that the point but a decision was made to try and get this passenger and her travel companion off the ship. there was a request made from the state department to the government in belize backed by secretary john kerry asking to allow the passenger and her companion to disembark and fly back to the u.s. belize flatout denied the request, which surprised a lot of people considering it came from the u.s. state department. they said out of a preponderance of caution for their citizens and residents, they could not allow this. they are self-quarantined in the cabin. the cruise ship says they are hand thlg following protocols. here's what we're hearing from carnival. >> we have a lot of practices in place, you know, that we've had incidents in the past, sars, h 1 n 1, so we have a lot of experience in the cruise
industry, not just the brand carnival. but the industry has a lot of experience dealing with people even with influenza, the normal viruses people toss off and about. >> this lab worker may have come in contact with that specimen 20 days ago and the incubation period is 21 days and still showing no symptoms. cdc says no risk. >> a lot of this abundance of caution going around right now not just in the u.s. but in belize, refusing a request from the major ally but also now enacting this travel ban which has been debated here as a possible response to this. no travel to belize from west africa. >> right. it speaks to the fear that people are feeling and certainly we've heard in this country plans to travel from west africa. belize has done this. you have to take into consideration the other passengers on this cruise ship. certainly they are being told this passenger is low risk, the passenger has self-quarantined but they had to cut the trip short, skipping cozumel, being told they'll get a credit. but that the point the
regulations are limited to the passenger and her companion, being told to stay in the cabin. the rest of the people can move about and enjoy their cruise. >> one more day they'll know because it will be outside the incubation period. >> they will. if the governor of ohio is another one calling for a travel ban on countries affected by ebola. ohio health officials said 29 people who came into contact with amber vincent are being monitored or are self-monitoring. vincent is the second dallas nurse who contracted ebola. she flew to cleveland and back earlier this month. a health official tried to allay fears of an ebola outbreak in his state. >> i want to say there is no ebola in summit county as far as i know, no ebola in ohio. we have a number of contacts. we have one person in summit county in quarantine. that person is healthy. all of the contacts that we have are healthy. we're keeping track of these folks. we are visiting folks. we are calling folks. but we have a large staff that are in constant communication
with all of these folks. i can tell you they're all healthy today. >> 87 people who were on the plane with vincent during her trip are also being monitor. meanwhile, the monitoring period for 48 people who had direct contact with thomas eric duncan, tomorrow is the key date. he died last week. now for the first time we're hearing from a doctor who was instrumental in treating duncan and from two nurses who contracted the disease as well. cnn's eli lee alina machado joi us. the doctor got upset saying his hospital did everything he could do at great risk to save duncan's life. is that a credible defense for how the hospital handle this case? >> reporter: up for debate, right? it depends on how you interpret what dr. weinstein said as well as what the hospital said. but no doubt this was an emotional interview he had with
our cnn affiliate wfaa. in that interview the reporter asked dr. weinstein specifically about allegations that duncan did not receive the best care because possibly of his race, because he was black, and also because he did not have health insurance. listen to what dr. weinstein had to say about that. >> i find that remarkably insult i ing. that's -- i don't know how better to describe that. the team here worked their tails off trying to save his life. >> reporter: now, in that same interview dr. weinstein was also asked about whether the teams were given the proper personal protection and equipment. his response was that his team was given everything they asked for. jim? >> well, that's going to be tested over time. now a whole host of hospitals in
the u.s. changing their practices based on that experience. thanks very much to alina machado in dallas today. the world health organization is to release a scathing report, an internal report on the response to the ebola outbreak. but not until the crisis itself is over. the news of the pending report came from an internal document. cnn's nic robertson has more. >> reporter: jim, the world health organization, the w.h.o., is saying that this was an initial and total report, that it had not been fact checked yet, but the facts look like this -- ebola was first announced, discovered on the 22nd of march in guinea. on the 1st of april, doctors without borders said this was unprecedented. the same day the w.h.o. spokesman said that this was -- the numbers were typical of what they had seen before. it wasn't until the 8th of august that the w.h.o. announced that this was an international disaster. now, i spoke with isabelle n
nuttle, the director of the w.h.o., of their global response unit, and what she told me was that more could have been done. she wished that more had been done because she said more is important, but she also said that in the early stages they didn't have a diagnosis for ebola, that it was very, very difficult to get information from west africa, and she also said that when the w.h.o. put out a request for volunteers to go to west africa to treat ebola she said there was a huge fear factor, volunteers weren't forth coming in the big numbers. this also contributed to the escalation of the ebola crisis. she said unlike a natural disaster, she said, ebola was striking fear in people's minds. jim? >> nic robertson in london. that report also calling the ebola outbreak a perfect storm brewing ready to burst open in full force. well, people are asking a lot of
questions about eeb lashgs even legal questions now like could thomas eric duncan's family win a wrongful death lawsuit or could you saw an airline if the passenger next to you had ebola? those questions right after this. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] great rates for great rides. geico motorcycle, see how much you could save.
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virus, what would their legal options be? joining me now cnn commentator and legal analyst mel robbins. mel, as you look at this, and this is america, right so, there's always the chance of someone suing for something, as you and i both well know, but when you look at all the companies now involved here, you've got a hospital in texas that seemed to make some mistakes, an airline, a cruise liner, even have the cdc, right, who arguably made some mistakes. are they vulnerable to lawsuits that could be very expensive? >> well, jim, you asked the question with a nod toward i think the first issue that we need to talk about, which is anybody can sue anyone for anything. the question is whether or not these cases will be successful. so why don't we kind of break them down one at a time. how about that? >> sounds great. let's start with, say, a hospital, texas presbyterian, they treated this patient and you'd have to think the strongest claim is the fam hi of thomas eric duncan, he came in, they turned him away, he came
back, he was sick, he died. do they have a likely legal claim that could be successful in court? >> they definitely have a claim for wrongful death and for medical malpractice. i kind of doubt it's going to be successful. back in 2003, texas passed a tremendous amount of tort reform. and they made it extremely difficult in the state of texas to prove that a doctor or a facility committed medical malpractice. and here's why it's so hard to prove, jim. in the state of texas, mr. duncan's family would have to prove that the hospital and the staff members acted not just negligently. i think everybody sort of agrees with the litmus test that, geez, you know, you let a guy discharge after going through all this training knowing he's from liberia with all these symptoms and you don't diagnose him correctly? that's negligence. well, in the case of texas, you've got to move from the hospital acted willfully or wantonly, which basically means you've got to move from the
hospital knew he had ebola and willfully neglected taking care of him, which is not what we're seeing out of the facts here. second, jim, you have to prove that the hospital's actions actually caused the death. and so in this case when you're dealing with a patient that has a disease with such a highmoral ti rate and there are so many unknowns and there's not a certain cure. there's no way i think that you could see them prove that the hspital's failure to diagnose him immediately and the fact that mr. duncan then didn't receive the proper hydration protocol for those two days, that that actually caused the death when, in fact, he was already suffering severely from ebola. and then one last thing. the state of texas is also limited to damages somebody can receive. you can only receive $250,000 from the hospital and $250,000 for emotional suffering. >> big limits there.
one, they have to willfully have done it and two what they did, the hospital, et cetera, had to be the thing that put him over the edge. high legal standard. thanks to mel robbins on that. some say the fear of ebola may be worse than the disease itself. misinformation, irrational thinking can be incredibly contagious. and we're seeing that. so how can we avoid it? that's coming up after this. ♪ who's going to do it? who's going to make it happen? discover a new energy source. turn ocean waves into power. design cars that capture their emissions. build bridges that fix themselves. get more clean water to everyone. who's going to take the leap? who's going to write the code? who's going to do it? engineers. that's who. that's what i want to do. be an engineer. ♪ [ male announcer ] join the scientists and engineers of exxonmobil in inspiring america's future engineers. energy lives here.
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so as we've been covering ebola, this next question has been at the top of my own mind, and that is all the talk, all the reports about ebola causing another outbreak of fear mong mongering. my next guests say the answer is yes. i want to bring in a reporter for the daily beast, and join us again cnn contributor and legal analyst mel robbins. abby, if i could begin with you, i'll share a story. driving over here this morning i'm talking to my dad, he's going to canada next week to visit friends. he says, you know what, i don't think i'm going to go, i'm afraid we'll catch ebola on the plane. i'm saying dad, don't worry about it, you're not going to catch it on the plane. but he's a well-read guy, watches the news a lot. is this common in the u.s. that the fear is getting ahead of the actual threat of this disease? >> yeah, actually i think it is. even before thomas eric duncan, the first patient here came to the u.s., the cdc i believe was
getting 50 calls a day from americans concerned they had ebola. in the first week of october they reported 800 calls. i imagine now there are two nurses who are infected with the disease. you know, those calls have skyrocketed. so absolutely i think a lot of americans are concerned. and in some ways the fear is warranted but i think it's overblown. >> you want the right amounts of people taking proper precautions but you don't want people to make decisions that aren't necessary. >> exactly. >> mel, you have strong feelings about this, wrote a strong op-ed for cnn on what you called and i'll give you credit for it, i don't know if you were the first, you called it fear-bola. isle quote from your op-ed. "an airborne disease that spreads through conversation entering your brain through your ear, so contagious some victims have contracted it by simply seeing images and videos about ebola. once inside, it attacks the brain, the part for rational thinking." sadly a lot of truth to do that. >> i didn't mean to be all
tongue-in-cheek because obviously this is a serious disease. i meant to be provocative so people would read the darn article because people are like, what if you get ebola? i said, listen, unless somebody barfs or poops on me on the plane, i'm not getting sick. people need to keep in mind, unless you are a health care worker or you are a family member with somebody with a diagnosed case you have almost nothing to worry about, jim. >> you make a great point. this is something the white house is trying to say repeatedly, watching their twitter feed, the same thing. it is not an airborne disease, you have to have close contact with bodily fluids, et cetera. what's also interesting is contributing to this fear has been the response so far, right? i was speaking to health officials before there was the first u.s. case, heads of cdc and ih et cetera saying our health care system is so much better than africa's you could never have an outbreak here.
hospitals will identify it, health care workers will continue it, yet we've seen the holes in that in response to the hospital in texas. not enough to justify the fear, but enough to raise hard questions about how prepared we are, don't you think? >> absolutely. i think that's the pivotal issue here. i think that the issue has really turned to two sides. the apocalypse or we're handling it fine. i think the answer is somewhere in the middle. and i think that the idea that the cdc has fallen short, that some of their protocols haven't worked can co-exist with the idea that, you know, they're still at extremely low risk despite some of their missteps, extremely low risk. as mel said, this is a virus that's difficult to catch. >> right. big advantage, staying away from it. big day tomorrow, 21 days since thomas eric duncan, the people who came into contact with him, reach the incubation period so we'll know tomorrow to a large
degree with whether there will be more cases stemming from that one case. is that right? >> yeah. and i think there will be a couple more days beyond just tomorrow, jim, but i do suspect that we'll see a few more cases in dallas, but after that, i'd be shocked if there's anything else. this is not anywhere near a massive crisis in the united states. it's very important for people to be informed, it's important for us to cover this story, it's also important to make sure that we are addressing the myths that are out there and the discrimination that's happening because of this. there's a community college in texas that has rejected every applicant from nigeria, and that is a country who as of tomorrow will be cleared by the world health organization and has been ebola free for over a month now after only having 19 cases. that would be like harvard, jim, sending everybody a letter who applied from texas saying nobody from texas is going to be admitted this year. so the fear is out of hand. the coverage that we have is very warranted.
but put it in perspective, folks. if you're scared about ebola, you better go get a flu shot for crying out loud. >> right. you just identified one of the worst cases i've heard so far is eliminating a whole country, which in great irony is nigeria, unlike the u.s., has managed to contain the disease at this point. thanks to abby and mel. just ahead, a very special "sanjay gupta m.d." as sanjay takes his family to pakistan to trace his routes. lte data. f 4g plus get the brand-new samsung galaxy note 4 for $0 down.
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