tv CNN Tonight CNN November 17, 2014 7:00pm-9:01pm PST
for some people. but for the rest of us it's just another monday. what is that? whose arm is that? that's such a creepy, creepy photo. they told me they were going to make a graphic, but i didn't know it would look quite so awful. truly awful. as for the cuddling industry at large, i'm a little bit skeptical. but again, no judgment. if we don't cozy up with you in the cascades room, we'll be sure to see you on the "riduculist." that does it for us. that does it for us. "cnn tonight" starts now. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com hello, everyone. this is "cnn tonight." i'm don lemon. tonight bill cosby under fire. more explosive charges against a man who was once known as america's dad. now another woman says cosby raped her when she was just 19. she joins me exclusively to tell her story. also, bill cosby's radio silence. the man who asked him point blank about the accusations and got what he calls an impish
smile and response. plus breaking news. state of emergency in ferguson. the national guard on the way as a grand jury gets closer to a decision of what will happen if the streets -- in the streets of ferguson if officer darren wilson is not indicted in the shooting death of michael brown. and why is a grand jury take so long? we've got a lot more to get to but i want to begin with the ak sigss against bill cosby. joan tarshis joins me now. she accuses cosby of raping her when she was 19. joan, thank you for joining us. >> you're welcome, don. >> you say you were sexually assaulted twice when you were 19 years old, in 1969, by bill cosby. >> correct. >> at the time he was working on the original "bill cosby show" back in the late '60s. >> right. right. that's where i met him. i was invited up to have lunch a few times by some friends of his and then he asked me back a few times. he asked me to visit him on the
set. i visited him on the set. and he introduced me to sidney poitier. he called me midget, because i'm only 5'3", and next to him i kind of looked like a midget. and i remember sidney poitier was carrying sort of an african cane that he had just gotten, and then after that he invited me to stay and work on some comedy routines with him because he knew i had written comedy for god frfried cambridge. so i did. >> before we go on and talk about it, you've never publicly spoken about this before. the first alleged occasion occurred after you had finished taping an episode of the bill cosby show, as you said, and then you write in detail about what happened saying "i was sickened by what was happening to me and shocked that this man that i'd idealized -- or idleized, excuse me, was now raping me. of course i told no one. and you said you didn't tell your mother because your mother
thought he was such a big deal at the time and your mother wouldn't believe you. at the time you thought your mom would say what happened with the bill cosby experience and every time she would talk about him i'm sure it sickened you. >> it sure did. every time he had would say come watch the "bill cosby show." i just -- i just had to say -- i just said i can't, i'm doing homework. >> why didn't you tell police? >> went back into my room. because of cosby's -- well, first of all, nobody else had come out -- i didn't know his history. i assume i was not the only girl that he was doing this with. but who's going to believe me? bill cosby. the all-american dad. the all-american husband, the person. mr. jell-o that everybody loves. who would believe me? they'd probably think i was out to get something. >> okay. so the first time, jobe joan, and i hate to have you go through this, and then we'll go over the second time later. but the first time exactly what
happened? >> well, that day he -- as i said, he knew i had written monologues for godfrey cambridge and he said -- he asked me if i was working on anything, and i said yes, i'm working on an earthquake -- a few earthquake jokes because i had just experienced my first earthquake in l.a. which was really just a big tremor. but to me it felt like an earthquake. and i was working on jokes about that. and he said, well, come up to my bungalow after i'm finished shooting and we'll work on it. and i thought, well, that's cool. i'm getting to write with bill cosby. that should be fun. we went up to his bungalow afterwards. he made me a drink. the same drink that he knew i liked that he'd made over lunch, which was a bloody mary, which he topped off with a little bit of beer and he called it a red eye. >> right. >> and i drank that while we were talking. i imitated the way i heard the
earthquake sounding. we were talking. i drank the red eye, the bloody mary. and very shortly after that i just -- i passed out. i woke up, or came to very groggily with him removing my underwear. >> and you said that you -- in order to get him to not do what you thought he was going -- what was going to happen next, you said you lied to him about having some sort of infection. >> mm-hmm. and i said, if you have sex with me, your wife is going to know it because you probably will infect her. and i thought i was very clever in saying that. but he was more clever. and instead he made me have oral sex with him, which really was just horrible. much, much -- to me it's much,
much worse than had he just raped me the normal way. >> okay. so then after that did you just get up and leave? what happened? >> after that i sort of got -- i got dressed. he was doing stuff around the room. he said, i'm going to give you $20 or $10 and call a cab for you. and i thought, you are such a perverted creep. i just -- i never want to see you again. and i left. >> you left. >> and had no intentions of ever seeing him again. >> but you did see him again. because as i mentioned earlier, your mom idolized him. and he called the house and he said he was performing. >> right. >> this is, again, according to you. he said he was performing and he wanted you to come see him. he sent a limo and you went anyways, even though you claim he raped you the first time.
why did you go and what happened? >> well, i didn't know how to back out of it. my mother 1weanswered the phone. he was saying he wanted to take me to westbury to hear the monologue that i had worked on with him. and my mother was all excited saying oh, my goodness, bill cosby's sending a limo for you and you're going to go see him perform and see the stuff that you wrote for him. you know, and she was -- and my father was all excited. and i didn't -- i was 19. i didn't know how to back out of it because of them. >> so then what happened? >> and i thought, well, this can't happen again. we're going to be at a theater. so i'm perfectly safe. i'm going to be with a bunch of people. well, what happened was the limo took me to his hotel. he was staying at the sherry netherland. i went up to his proom. and i noticed he had this big shaving kit, this men's shaving kit, opened up with lots of pill bottles in it, almost filled up with pill bottles, which i
thought was really odd. and he made a drink, the red eye, and i drank it and everything was fine. then we went down to the limo and the westbury and i had either a soda or something in the car and i started to feel funny as we got closer to westberry. and i walked into the theater with him for the show. he went backstage. and i said to the chauffeur, i don't have a seat? i have to stand in the back of the audience with you? and he said i guess so. and at one point very shortly after that i began to feel very, very, very drugged. and i said to the chauffeur, you're going to have to take me back to the limousine, i'm not going to be able to stand very soon. went back to the limousine. yes? >> you went back to the limousine. >> went back to the limousine. >> and did you ever make it back
home or did you pass out in the car? >> i passed out in the car. and the last time i came to, when i came to, it was the next morning. and i was in bed with him naked. and the sun was shining in through the windows. >> what did you say to him? >> what i said to him, i didn't say what i wanted to say. what i said to myself was, you old expletive, you finally got me. you'll never get me again. and i got up. i remember getting up out of bed and saying i have to go and putting my clothes on and leaving. i don't remember whether i went back in the limo. i don't know. i think i probably just hailed a cab and went back to my parents' house and let them pay for the cab when i got there. >> i have to ask you something. you said you were asked by
another -- i think it was a philadelphia magazine. and they said, you said what do you think about bill cosby's show coming up. and you said i would love for nbc to cancel the series they're doing with him but that involves money, not ethics. >> mm-hmm. >> so that's not going to happen. and i would also like to be able to say, and this is a quote from you, bill cosby is a rapist and have america believe it. >> mm-hmm. yes. he's a serial rapist, actually. i mean, when you rape at least 16 women, that's serial. that's a serial rapist. >> yeah. >> in my opinion. >> okay. and again, we're going to say that bill cosby, of course these accusations, he's denied, it all of them. >> yes. >> and we reached out to representatives and of course the representatives said this weekend he was not going to dignify any of this way response. so joan, i want you to say with me because when we come back i want you to know what you think of the other allegations against bill cosby. also the sound of silence. a man who asked cosby about the allegations during a radio
interview this weekend and what happened in the studio when he did. plus the 12 grand jurors weighing the ferguson case, when will they decide, and what's taking so long? i lost my sight in afghanistan, but it doesn't hold me back. i go through periods where it's hard to sleep at night, and stay awake during the day. non-24 is a circadian rhythm disorder that affects up to 70% of people who are totally blind. talk to your doctor about your symptoms and learn more by calling 844-844-2424. or visit my24info.com.
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tarshis. she's back with me. she accuses bill cosby of raping her when she was 19. so joan, you didn't -- the other women, there's been 13 women so far who have made these claims, you didn't know any of them personally, right? >> no. >> not barbara bowman, right? >> no. >> so i spoke with barbara bowman last week and she claims she was sexually assaulted by cosby on more than one occasion as well. and here's what she had to say. listen. >> a friend of mine in '89 took me to an attorney. he laughed me out of the office. at that point nobody would believe me. he was -- he was dr. huxtable. he was america's dad. everybody loved him. i loved him. i wanted him to be my dad. and nobody believed me. >> as i understand, you were nodding your head in agreement as you were watching that. >> yes. yes. that's how i felt too. who would believe me? he wasn't dr. huxtable when i knew him. he was mr. kinkade, a teacher. but he was still america's
sweetheart. >> he was also a very popular star, i spy in the 1960s, and then also filling in for johnny carson on "the tonight show," which was a very big deal back then, right? >> mm-hmm. correct. and doing -- >> why didn't you come forward? >> why didn't i come forward when? at the time? >> yeah. you said you didn't think people would believe you. but it probably goes beyond that because of who he was. but if you were -- i'm a man, so i don't know. but if someone has taken advantage of you in that way, and of course men are as well, but for women maybe it's a societal thing or what have you. i don't know. why wouldn't you just say something to someone? >> it's the guilt and the shame of the victim. you know intellectually that it's not your fault, but your emotions have no intelligence and your intelligence have no
emotions. sometimes they don't connect with each other. and my emotions won at this point. i felt a lot of shame. i felt a lot of guilt. i felt a lot of shoulds. i should have known. there was something wrong with this man. i should have felt something was off with him. and i was angry at myself that i didn't and blamed myself. >> you blamed yourself. yeah. and i have to say -- and we talked about this a little bit. a lot of people don't believe you. you know that, joan, right? >> mm-hmm. mm-hmm. that's true. you know, what am i getting out of this? if i could, i would have done this interview with a paper bag over my head. to maintain my anonymity. but i really wanted to join in with all the other women to give them some more credibility. i've been quiet too long and
perhaps he's still doing what he had done to us. maybe some young girl might be listening to this and it might prevent her from getting in the same situation with him. >> hold that thought because i want to ask you something. i want to ask you. hold that thought. but first let me play this. this is whoopi goldberg on "the view." she's skeptical about bowman's allegations. here's what she said in response to barbara bowman saying that no one believed her. take a listen. >> perhaps the police might have believed it. or the hospital. where you go. don't you do a kit when you say someone has raped you? don't the police -- >> a rape kit is what it's called. >> isn't that the next step once you make an allegation? and one of the things that getting accused of a lot of stuff when you're famous does is it opens the door for everyone to come out and say me too, boss. it's like a bugs bunny cartoon. so you have to really like take a minute and follow -- follow the evidence.
>> you understand the doubt, don't you, joan? >> absolutely. i don't know whether in 1969 there were rape kits. i certainly had never heard of them. you know, i didn't think of going to the police at that time. i was humiliated enough. i didn't think about taking a sample at that time. had i, had i thought of it, were those around, had they been more publicized, you betcha i would have. >> when you said -- >> you betcha i would have. i would have had dna. >> no evidence then. because i understand barbara bowman says she does have evidence but she doesn't want to say what it is. you have no evidence. >> the only evidence i have is that where he stayed in the hotel the drinks. the fact that i told this to people 20 years afterwards, before anybody else had come t
out. nobody else knew that he was doing this, and i told friends of mine finally. i didn't go to the press. i didn't go anywhere. i just told friends. i finally got it off my chest. so i don't see how that's really getting me anything. >> i'm going to read this and then i have another question for you. okay? because i'm going to ask you why you didn't join bore bra constand's lawsuit that was in 2005 that was eventually settled. from his attorneys they put up the statement over the weekend saying "over the last several weeks decades-old discredited allegations against mr. cosby have resurfaced. the fact that they are being repeated does not make them true. mr. cosby does not intend to dignify these allegations with any comment." then they changed it on the website referring to the constand settlement saying, "the statement released by mr. cosby's attorney over the weekend was not intended to refer in any way to andrea constand as previously reported, differences between mr. cosby and miss constand were resolved
to the mutual satisfaction of mr. cosby and miss constand years ago. neither mr. cosby nor ms. constand intends to comment further on the matter." if you had come forward maybe ms. bowman may not have the same sort of allegation against mr. cosby or other women. >> i knew nothing about the other case. i knew nothing about the other case that was going on. i think i read about it after the fact. and then friends of mine would say aren't you going to do something? and i'd say it's too late. i could have been one of those -- i could have been the 14th woman when i nope it was going on but i didn't know. i didn't know any of them. i don't know their names. i don't know -- i don't know anybody. i just know myself. and actually one of the reporters actually called up my friend today, whom i told, in
about 1980 that this had happened, just to confirm it, that my story was true. and it was true. >> joan, i have to ask you this. you said you want -- you said, again, your quote, bill cosby is a rapist and you want to have america believe it. what do you want to say to america right now? >> i can't make anybody believe something they don't want to believe. i don't have that control. but just think about why would people come together that don't know each other, that say the same m.o. about a man -- what do we have to gain? do we have a secret vendetta against bill cosby? i don't know. i thought he was -- i loved the man until this happened. i thought he was wonderfully -- he's very talented. he's very funny. he's very bright. so i have nothing to gain. i have no money. i'm not writing a book. i'm taking a master's program in
school up here. so i really have nothing to gain by doing this. except to hopefully give some credibility to the women that came before me and to let certain people who might believe it take another look at mr. cosby. >> okay. joan tarshis, thank you. >> thank you, don. >> we've got a lot more on the allegations against bill cosby to talk about here. when we come right back, what happened in the studio when cosby refused to answer questions during an interview this weekend. plus, why the story has gone viral now decades after the alleged incident. [announcer:]startup-ny.
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bill cosby is not letting the sexual assault allegations stop him from what he knows best, and that's performing before a live audience. the comic legend got a rousing reception yesterday from fans at the warner theater in erie, pennsylvania. the allegations against cosby first surfaced years ago. so why are they going viral now? scott simon is the host of npr's "weekend edition." saturday he interviewed bill cosby this weekend.
and jonah berger is an associate professor of marketing. he's also the authsor of "contagious: why things catch on." both of them perfectly suited for this story. scott, i'll start with you. you had bill cosby and his wife camille on your show over the weekend. he was on to talk about his art collection. but you also asked him about the resurfacing of these allegations. let's talk after we listen to this. >> okay. >> this question gives me no pleasure, mr. cosby, but there have been serious allegations raised about you in recent days. you're shaking your head no. i'm in the news business. i have to ask the question. do you have any response to those charges? shaking your head no. >> so this was a radio interview but you got to see his reaction to the questions. and his demeanor and the reaction hiof his wife. tell us about it. >> you know, bill cosby is a brilliant, perhaps a brilliant
man. certainly a brilliant performer. i got about two or three words into my question by saying "this question gives me no pleasure." and mr. cosby got that what you i can only call that impish little jell-o pudding pop commercial dr. huxtable grin like that. and that's when i said you're shaking your head and saying no. every time i began to try and get the question out. and when i actually asked the question. and you know, i made a point. i thought i owed -- for that matter i owed bill cosby the dignity of looking directly at him, looking into his eyes. i made a point of not looking at camille cosby, who as you may know is the most wonderful, enthralling, engaging, intelligent person that you could ever encounter. the question wasn't for her. so i didn't look at her, pointedly. i didn't think there was any reason to do that. and you know, i don't think he registered any reaction of a -- he certainly wasn't quaking. he wasn't terrified. >> what happened afterwards?
was it tense? did he say i told you not to ask -- >> i think what happened after the interview should be off the record but i don't want to make it mysterious by saying that. we stopped recording this off the record. there was no discourtesy. we got out there have as soon as possible, i'm sure to everybody's mutual relief. >> this interview was booked well before the allegations got, you know, dragged back up again into the headlines. >> yeah. >> did they make any mention to you at all saying don't ask him about this? i was actually surprised he took the int vie. >> no. and honestly, as i've said, i thought until the morning of the interview, i thought they would cancel it. they had either canceled or queen latifah acanceled on them. so i was surprised they went ahead with the interview. they didn't say thinking. but i did think it's worth mentioning they said something to my producers, forgive a bad imitation of a hollywood pr agent. but they said you know, you guys are so classy, you don't go for the muck and the slime like
everybody else, we love npr. and by the way, i think that's true. we don't go for the muck and the slime. but as i think you -- you know, you just heard miss tarshis speaking, this -- i would not ask somebody about an assignation they had or even someone in show business, an alleged mistress they had, unless it was angela merkel. >> but these are serious allegations that needed to be addressed. >> exactly. >> jonah, this is because of a joke made by stand-up comedian hannibal burris. watch this. >> i could talk down to you because i have a successful sitcom. yeah, it was great living with bill cosby. i don't curse on stage! >> hannibal said he had been doing that routine for quite a while and he was surprised that it took off in the last part of him saying that, in the final -- his final performances of using that part of his routine. but how does something go from
stand-up comedians, in someone's act, to going viral online, jonah? >> i think this is a perfect example of a perfect storm of reality. take a very famous person in our culture, somebody everybody knows. we all grew up with bill cosby, we all grew up with "the cosby show." and take a big con traverse that's unsettled. did he do it, did he not do it. people don't know and so they're tuning in to see what's happening. this controversy caused a lot of conversation and a lot of attention on the web. >> and the internet plays a big role in this and so does social media. everyone had -- you reached out to his media people, his representative scott. that's what we do. and i said -- he said he doesn't want to dignify it with a response. my response was i don't think this is going to go away because every time he's out in public or he goes to an interview somebody is going to ask him about it, jonah. it seems that -- and there are more details coming up every day like the woman i just interviewed. now she's coming forward.
in this internet age, in this social media age the game has really changed. you can probably sweep this under the rug in former times but not anymore. >> there are two big things we forget. one is the speed. things spread so much faster and more quickly than they have before. you can reach millions of people with one tweet or message and ping-pong around the world in a few hours and get a lot of attention. and the second is the internet's like an elephant. it never forgets. something's out there, it's captured somewhere, there's information, people can dig it up, they can find it, and that can help or hurt someone. >> this was dug up too. the village voice the newspaper unearthed a routine on bill cosby's 1969 comedy album. it's called "it's true, it's true," where cosby jokes about giving spanish fly to girls. here it is. >> when i was 13, man, start talking about weird things. no, really. standing on the corner.
you know anything about spanish fly? what? spanish fly. it always happens when you're 13. only when you're 13 on up to like when you get married. guys standing around talking about spanish fly. and it never starts with one of the guys on the corner. it's always sflaj 13-year-old says, you know what? you know anything about spanish fly? no, tell me about it. well, there's this girl crazy mary. you put some in they are drink, she -- oh, that's really groovy, man. spanish fly, groovy, yeah. go to a party, see five girls standing alone. a whole jug of spanish fly up in that corner over there. >> kind of makes you cringe a little, jonah, just hearing that. i don't know if this has any effect on it. he is a comedian. but he's talking about drugging women here. >> and the hard thing about this is before these allegations we wouldn't have thought anything about that bit. so in some ways the bit has no power to say whether he did it
or didn't and i think that's an important question that deserves to be answered. but we can dig up old things. we can find old memes or content on the web and look at them in a new light and that can cause us to change how we see things in the day to day to day. >> what happens next with this story? netflix is due to stream a stand-up comedy special the day after thanksgiving. nbc developing a new sitcom with cosby. what do you think's going to happen? >> i think the difficult question is -- oh, sorry. >> go ahead, jonah. >> i was just going to say the difficult question is how do you react when you're not sure if this is true or not? i think if it were true that has some important repercussions but it's also important not to prejudge and assume it's true. that has some important repercussions either way. >> scott? >> i'm going to speak as the son of a comedian as opposed to a comedian as opposed to a journalist. i think for the rest of his career he'll never have a problem getting a stand-up ovation in erie, pennsylvania but i think it's going to be very awkward for nbc to put on
that sitcom. can you imagine the press tour? he's obviously not going to go on the "today" show to publicize it. i think we might have passed a critical point in public reaction. and again, i say that as a human being, as someone who grew up loving bill cosby, and the son of someone who worked in the industry. i think we saw an important moment. when i say it's a cautionary tale, i don't know what it's going to caution various people in the future. but i think it's going to be the first line of his obituary, which god willing won't happen for years, but it will be the first line. >> scott simon, jonah berger, thank you. >> thanks. a state of emergency in ferguson, missouri as we wait for the grand jury's decision in the michael brown case. up next we're going to ask an attorney for brown's family what message this move sends to the people of ferguson. denver international is one of the busiest airports in the country. we operate just like a city, and that takes a lot of energy.
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if officer darren wilson will be indicted. now missouri governor jay nixon says he'll bring the national guard back to the streets of ferguson to coordinate with st. louis county police. joining me now is anthony gray, the attorney for michael brown's family. good evening, mr. gray. thanks for being on. >> thank you for having me, sir. >> missouri governor jay nixon declared a state of emergency, activated the national guard today ahead of the expected grand jury decision. do you think that's necessary? >> i don't know if it's necessary or not. i could tell you that the reaction is that it has generated a lot of fear. in the general community and public. i would go so far as to say the entire region is gripped by fear from the announcement of the national guard, police, grenades, helmets, shields. it's like they're preparing for war instead of peace. they expect some kind of hand-to-hand combat. i can tell you the consequences of this announcement has really got a lot of people, like you said, on edge and very fearful
at this time. >> so what would happen, tho, mr. gray, if something did pop off or happen there and police -- the mayor, i'm sorry, and the governor weren't prepared for it. wouldn't people be criticizing them for it, saying you had all the time in the world to prepare and you didn't do anything? >> no doubt about it. it's kind of a double-edged sword or catch 22. i just think the big announcement, the big grand production of the introduction of the national guard and armaments and all those things is a little bit blown out of proportion in my mind and it's created these fears and could have been done in a less grand fashion than what has been done now. >> let's talk about what happened over the weekend surveillance video and audiotape obtained by the st. louis post dispatch. we've learned more about the timeline of what happened on august 9th. i want you to listen to the dispatch calls from that day and then i'll get your reaction. >> in progress from 9101.
>> he's with another male. red cardinals hat, white t-shirt, yellow socks and khaki shorts. he's walking up -- >> 25 to 21 or 22. >> 21. put me on canfield with two. and send me another car. >> frank 25. >> get us several more units over here. there's going to be a problem. >> other important points on the timeline not caught on audio was at 12:03 p.m. a witness tweets he just saw someone die and at 12:05 a dispatch calls for an ambulance reporting that someone has been tasered. then the video two hours later after the shooting. and you know after the shooting where the body's on the ground and what have you. so what did you garner from the radio calls? >> you don't really get much other than the fact there was an incident at the convenience store and then there was an attempt by officer wilson.
it sounds to me that atoccordin to what we already know, when he went outward 2 that doesn't have anything to do with the convenience store either. i would expect that an officer encountering two people that were previously broadcasted their description that he would probably reference that call when he says i'm out with two on canfield, related to the convenience store or that fit the description of the individuals. we have none of that. so to that degree it doesn't make any connections for me. >> but the initial contact that had been stated by all agencies involved was the initial contact came from two young men walking in the middle of the street. that was the initial contact. and then it was brad over the radio, the description of the young man who had allegedly robbed the convenience store but it's not certain officer wilson heard that call, even though it may have been broadcast, but he did say put me out on canfield
because he was sitting there because he was just off of a sick baby call. >> exactly. and i want you to be clear about something. when he said put me out with two, that meant he was about to get out of his vehicle and interact with two individuals. that's what that means. >> okay. >> and keep in mind the broadcast of the description had gone out before the first encounter. so as officer wilson is coming down canfield the description had been broadcast while he was at the previous call. so i've pieced all that together just by listening to the tapes and reading the transcripts. when he asked if the guys needed help, that all happened before he encountered. but what he was going to do, and this is speculation on my part, if they said yes, his next statement would have been could you give me that description again? and then he would have went out and looked for those individuals. >> i've got to run but i want to just play this video because this is in the police station. it's officer wilson leaving the police station for the hospital. and then 2 1/2 hours later if we
can put that up, officer wilson returns to the police station. and again, you can't tell in this video of any injuries, but we know it's not the video -- the clarity is not enough to see if there's actually any injuries. i have to ask you this before we go, and i do have to run. the family and the people involved will get notification of an announcement. have you heard anything yet? >> have not heard anything yet, don. we hope the commitment to notify us before they make a public announcement is adhered to and upheld. and hopefully we'll get that notice. >> anthony gray, thank you. >> thank you. >> coming up everything is in the hands of the 12 people on that grand jury. but what's going on behind those closed doors. and why is it taking so long? (receptionist) gunderman group.
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12 people on the grand jury will decide the fate of officer darren wilson. and what happens in ferguson as a matter of fact. meantime, protesters taking to the streets. law enforcement gearing up as a state of emergency is declared by the governor today. joining me now rena martin, attorney and women's rights activist. and david clinger, a former police officer in los angeles and redmond, washington and author of "into the kill zone."
and van jones, cnn political contributor. thanks to all of you. what's up with the cap, david? >> it's cold here. if you want me to take it off, i'll do that, but then i might start to shiver. >> we would not want that to happen. ariva, i'm going to start with you. are you afraid people are going to see what they want to see and not necessarily look at all the facts? >> there's been so much coverage of all this, don, and people have formed opinions about it. those who want to believe that officer wilson should be indicted. i don't think any decision by this grand jury is going to change their decisions about that. they've seen the witnesses come on program after program and talk about mike brown's arms being in the air surrendering as he was shot by officer wilson. so that's going to be very difficult to change those individuals' opinions no matter what comes out of this grand jury. >> i remember being there, van. we were both on the ground. and the day the videotape came out in the convenience store. and you could clearly sew -- and
there were stills. and there were people who were comparing the stills to michael brown being on the ground on canfield and what he was wearing. and clearly to the people in the media it was the same outfit but the people on the ground were saying there's no way, it's not the same outfit. and i was just wondering what is going on where people are wanting to see what they're wanting to see or not believing what's in front of their eyes? what's happening? >> well, a couple things. first of all, let's just be clear. the violence that people are talking about, they're so afraid of, we need to bring out the national guard for, you and i were there. i don't remember us coming away saying the people in ferguson are violent and the police are very responsible, professional. we came away saying the police are provocative, the police are tear gasing people, the police are really ratcheting it up. the governor if he's going to intervene should be intervening to make sure the law enforcement is as peaceful as most of the protesters were. i just wanted to make sure i said that. but i do think that people have low trust for this law
enforcement agency. you do have a city which we forget now, 80 pirs to 90% of all the warrants and arrests are against the african-american community. way before michael brown was killed. that level of overpolicing, overzealousness toward this community from this police department has created a lack of trust and that has to be addressed. >> and it's a distrust you will say because even if people know it's planted, it's not there, we know exactly what happened. is that what you're saying? >> because they've had experienced themselves where they felt they were singled out and targeted and the statistics are shocking in that they really bear that out. i think we've got to get people a little bit of credit here. we're not talking about a law enforcement agency they haven't had person with. they have. and that's why you have such distrust. >> and i do have to say something. van, i agree with you for the most part that we did see -- for the most part the protesters were peaceful in ferguson. but there were some agitators in the crowd. >> sure. >> that's not the bulk of the protesters. and we did see some provocation on the part of the police
department. so it wasn't just in my estimation from what i witnessed with my own eyes just police. there were some provocateurs in the crowd as well. but david, as a former police officer explain imminent jeopardy to me. what would have to be made appropriate for officer wilson to shoot michael brown? what would be appropriate? >> the basic notion is that when a police officer's life is in jeopardy he or she has a reasonable belief, is the standard we talk about, and that reasonable belief could be formed from a number of reasons. the classic example is the shootout. a suspect's got a gun, he starts shooting at the officer, the officer returns fire. my situation, some 32 years ago, a guy attacked my partner with a butcher's knife, knocked him on the ground, was trying to drive the knife through his throat. so my partner's life is in imminent jeopardy. that's why i shot. so we have that basic notion. and one of the things that appears to be in the offing here is the notion of an officer shooting to prevent his gun
being taken away. officers all across the country know that many officers are killed with their own firearm. in fact, officers are trained that in every interaction there's at least one firearm. and the fbi statistics show that in the decade ending twvtd, from '03 to 2012, 43 police officers were murdered with their own guns across the country. so if there was a struggle over officer wilson's gun and he has a reasonable belief that he's about to be disarmed, officers are trained to shoot their gun to shoot the suspect off the gun. so whatever went down in the vehicle, if something went down to the point where officer felt he was going to be disarmed, deadly force would be appropriate. >> but don, can i just -- >> if you can do it in less than ten seconds, areva. go ahead. >> i just want to say we also have to look at what happened outside the vehicle. he may have believed his life was in danger -- >> absolutely. >> -- inside the vehicle. but once michael brown started to runway from that car it's also important to note whether the officer believed his life was in danger as well. >> i want to ask, is it saying
something he was turning back around rather than running away from the officer? >> but 35 feet away is not the same -- >> absolutely. >> go ahead. quickly, david. >> absolutely. i was trying to work it out to that point. there was some type of a short foot pursuit and if in fact mr. brown came back and was coming back aggressively at officer wilson, a logical police officer could say that he is coming back to try to disarm me again. and i've been saying from the beginning we have to wait till we have all the evidence and all the witness statements and then we can start to say whether this witness's statement lines up with the physical evidence or that witness's statement lines up with the physical -- >> i've got to go. >> if witnesses had seen -- >> sorry, van, i have to go. >> there wouldn't be protests.
11:00 p.m. on the east coast. this is "cnn tonight." i'm don lemon. as bill cosby faces shocking charges of decades-old sex abuse of young women, some hollywood a-listers are being accused of sexually exploiting children. is it hollywood's dirty little secret? and is it being swept under the rug? we'll talk with samantha guymer. she was just 13 when director rom roman polanski, 43 at the time, had sex with her. plus a tragedy asserted. a young man's parents find a receipt for two salt rifles and call police. he didn't shoot anyone but he's
behind bars today. does he still belong there? our dr. gupta with his exclusive jailhouse interview coming up. let's get to the scandal that could be on the verge of exploding in hollywood. cnn's jean casarez has that. >> this way, this way! >> reporter: some say it's the dirty little secret of hollywood. children sexually exploited by the powerful. in the moviemaking capital of the world. >> hollywood's got a problem. >> reporter: some young actors say they were led to believe they had to agree if they wanted to see their stars rise. >> it's the mind frame of if you want to play you have to pay and we're going to make you pay with your body. >> a clip from this weekend's premiere of the documentary "an open secret" by oscar-nominated producer amy berg purportedly describes the horrors. >> i remember the first time. yeah, i do. at one point he said, you know what, why don't you just take off your clothes, take off your clothes and let me see what you look like. >> reporter: nick, who you hear
describing his experience, doesn't name an accuser, but alleged victim michael egan does in the controversial film. egan filed civil lawsuits earlier this year in california and hawaii alleging childhood sexual abuse. >> i was raped numerous times. >> reporter: in the hawaii suit one named defendant, high-profile x-men director brian singer. >> you were like a piece of meat to these people. and they -- they'd pass you around between them. >> reporter: several months later egan dropped the lawsuit. singer's attorney, marty singer, no relation, tells cnn the following -- "egan has no credibility at all and can hardly be considered a reliable source for amy berg's so-called documentary." but egan's attorney said earlier this year his client's experience is one of many in hollywood." in 2012 manager to the stars marty weiss pleaded no contest to lewd acts with a child under 14 years of age.
he was placed on a sex offender registry. his attorney has kind to comment. and henry is the co-founder of biz parents foundation, which helps parents keep their child actors safe in the business. she worked with ice in the past. >> he was a very aggressive manager. he was popular. everybody knew who he was. mostly because his kids were t getting auditions. he was out there. >> entertainment manager bob velard who represented up-and-coming stars like leonardo dicaprio in his younger days, was convicted a decade ago. offense? committing lewd or lascivious acts with a child under 14 years of age. efforts to reach volard were unsuccessful. perhaps hollywood's most famous case, roman polanski, convicted in 1977 of unlawful sex with a 13-year-old girl named samantha geimer. fleeing the u.s. before sentencing yet still maintaining a successful career outside of the country. and just weeks ago questioned by
authorities in poland. in 2012 the governor of california signed into law what is known as the child performers protection act. it requires anyone working with children in the entertainment industry other than a licensed talent agent or a certified studio teacher to register and provide electronic fingerprints to prove they are not a registered sex offender. but the law can only protect child actors from convicted offenders. egan understands how difficult it is for victims to come forward, especially in hollywood. >> at the end of the day if you don't keep the members of this group happy, we control hollywood, we can eliminate you. >> reporter: chilling words in a story now coming to the big screen. jean casarez, cnn, new york. >> all right, jean, thank you very much. i want to bring in now samantha geimer. she was just 13 years old when hollywood director roman polanski had sex with her. she tells her story in "the
girl: a life in the shadow of roman polanski." samantha, thanks for joining us. >> hey, thank you for inviting me. >> when you hear the alleged victims talking about bill cosby and what they say happened to them, does it bring you back to 1977 and what happened between you -- you were then 13. and roman polanski, who was 43 at the time? what's similar if there were any similarities between those okizations. >> well, what's swlirm is having no one believe you. what's different is that i was under age. i was forced to come out with this immediate ly and i didn't have to wait years to tell my sorry. so a lot of things are different. but the not being believed and the powerful men in hollywood who take what they want, it's very familiar in that way. >> so it's tough, again, bill cosby denies all of the allegations. when you hear the women's stories, do you find them
believable? >> well, i would always err on the side of caution and believe the victim. i think they deserve the respect to be believed. without, you know -- without too much question because this myth that people just make these things up all the time, that's not really true. so although i don't know them, i would err on the side of believing them first and later, you know, making judgments if i had more information. >> your case was the scandal that really shone a light on a seedy underbelly of hollywood at the time. he ultimately pled guilty to having unlawful sex with you and then he fled to europe before sentencing. when you were first questioned and told your story, did people believe you then? >> people did not believe me. i felt like the police didn't believe me, the hospital satisfy didn't believe me. but once they found evidence, then suddenly of way believable
and i got a completely different reaction from everybody involved. so without evidence i don't think anyone would have ever believed me. and people to this day don't believe the truth of what happened. but there's always going to be people who don't believe what you say. that's one of the things you just have to learn to live with. >> i don't know if you got to see the interview with joan tarshis, who was -- you know, said it happened to her back in 1969. she was just on top of last hour. great interview. and she said -- she said that, you know, people -- she understand tz why people don't want to believe this many people about bill cosby, because he's so iconic. and who's going to believe a young person? >> i think it's in human nature to not want to believe bad things about people. if it's your friend you wouldn't want to believe it. and people have this false idea that these celebrities that they feel close to and respect or
admire or love, they have a hard time believing it's true. i just think it's human nature to want to give people that you care about or people you think you care about even though it's a celebrity you really don't know, you want to give them the benefit of the doubt. but the truth is you don't know these celebrities and they could be nice people or they could be not so nice people. and i learned that at a very young age. >> people aren't always who they present themselves to be in public, which is what you're saying. and especially when someone has a public persona. do you think things have changed much since 1977? >> i thought they had. but now i'm wondering if that's not true. it seems like perhaps i had this idea that the wild ee 70s was different than today. and i think what i'm hearing and finding out is actually things have not changed that much. this bad behavior still goes on and people still are getting hurt. and people are still wishing
they could sweep it under the rug instead of talking about it. >> what do you see to people who put the blame on these young women, saying they should not have been there, they should have known better, known what they were getting into, especially if it happened multiple times. for those to whom it happened multiple times. >> i think you should put the bram on the person who did wrong. you don't blame a victim because of she put herself in bad circumstances or you have a personal judgment about that person. if someone takes an action you blame them for that action. they did it. they're to blame. and it's hard to describe when you're around powerful people how intimidated you feel and you feel like you can't speak up. and if you want to take responsibility for yourself and say i made bad choices, i shouldn't have been there, i wish i would have done things differently, that's fine. but as far as other people, outsiders blaming the victim.
no. you blame the person who took the actions. they're the ones who did it. >> i have to ask you, what are your feelings toward roman polanski today? >> i wish that they would judge him in absentia or sentence him in absentia. stop pursuing him. he pled guilty. he served his time. i cannot believe the way the courts have made us both suffer for his celebrity and for their own little time in the limelight to drag him back here. so i have -- we have made amends. he is sorry. he has apologized. i've forgiven him. he knows what he did was wrong. and people make mistakes. and i have no hard feelings towards him. i hope he does well. >> roman polanski, i should tell our viewers, fled to poland and has since been there. thank you very much, samantha geimer. >> thank you very much for having me. >> we've got a lot more on this story. when we come right back, does
hollywood turn a blind eye to sexual abuse when. i'm people are involved? can anything change the casting couch mentality? plus breaking news. the hunt is over for two of john walsh's targets. we're going to tell you who they are and how they were found. culminating up. introducing... a pm pain reliever that dares to work all the way until... the am. new aleve pm the only one to combine a safe sleep aid plus the 12 hour strength of aleve. e financial noise financial noise
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joining me now mel robbins, cnn commentator and legal analyst. and mark geragos, cnn commentator and legal analyst. hi, guys. i should say hi, lady and gentleman. people on social media say you called those women guys. >> i could care less. >> polanski has dnd to make films and work with some of the biggest names in hollywood. has hollywood turned a blind eye to sexual abuse when it comes to powerful men? >> obviously. they're giving the guy an oscar when he's been convicted of sleeping with a 13-year-old and he's living in exile overseas. so yes, they do turn a blind eye, don. >> mark, the power structure of hollywood, older man in charge, take advantage of young female actresses trying to become famous, it seems impossible to fix. we've heard of the casting couch forever. can anything be done to change that, to obtain, you foe, any hard evidence and press charges and change the system in hollywood? >> well, you know, i'm representing kesha right now and
suing one of the superstar mega producers for his sexual predatory activity, and it's difficult. you're up against incredibly powerful eem. there's a disproportionate power between the predator and the victim. so it's very difficult. and there is a sense that at a certain point that if the woman stays around or, as mel was saying before we got on air, if they come around a second time that somehow they asked for it. not understanding the dynamic that goes on here. and that very same disproportionate amount of power, and that kind of attraction of the fame and the fortune. it's an insidious problem. it's a horrible problem. and we don't talk about it or deal with it enough. >> so joan tarshis was on cnn at the top of the last hour, and she -- when asked why she did it, she said -- well, number one, she said she thinks nbc should not do the upcoming show
with him. and then she said she did it because she wanted people to know, she said bill cosby, this is a quote, "is a rapist, and i wanted to be able to say that and have america believe it." she also said this. listen. >> i have to ask you this. you said you want -- you said, again your quote, bill cosby is a rapist and you want to have america believe it. what do you want to say to america right now? >> i can't make anybody believe something they don't want it believe. i don't have that control. but just think about why would people come together that don't know each other, that say the same m.o. about a man? what do we have to gain? do we have a secret vendetta against bill cosby? >> so mel, there are cases of women who fabricate abuse charges. i'm not saying that any of these women did that.
ben against men. the question is have they ruined it for other women? i don't know if the women who fabricate sexual abuse charges, if it's really that high. and you even heard whoopi goldberg on "the view" saying i have a lot of questions for her. >> well, i have a lot of questions for whoopi because when you have at least 13 women that come out and say repeatedly that this guy did it to me and they've got nothing to gain, you may not convict him in the court of law but he has been fricking found guilty in the court of common sense. and so anybody with half a brain should know that at least the majority of the these women are telling the truth, don. i don't care if he's ever convicted -- >> but mel, people may be surprised because you're an attorney. and as an attorney you advocate due process, innocent until proven guilty. >> yes. >> he has denied it. this has never gone to court -- >> yes, it has gone to court and he settled because this woman sued him in 2005. he settled knowing that there were 12 other jane does that wanted to talk. the woman you that just interviewed in the last hour wasn't even part of the lawsuit,
don. and so women are coming forward now saying hey, this happened to me. they have nothing to gain -- >> but when i said gone to court, there has been no decision of guilt or innocence. and you don't know what is in the document when they settle -- >> well, let me tell you something. i do know that when i listen to four women now that have come forward -- and by the way, a number of them spoke back in 2006, don. one of them was on the "today" show. another one told her story to "people" magazine. it was reported widely. we didn't have cell phones. we didn't have the wide use of the internet. we didn't have social media in order to get this story out. and now people are talking. and i'm telling you right now, i fricking believe these women. and unbliek whoopi goldberg, i need to like look at the evidence to see if i'm going to indict my buddy bill cosby in these allegations because i can listen to these women and say based on common sense there is no way that these women are making these allegations up
simply so they can get five minutes of fame on cnn. >> but mel. mel, i was just going to say, mel, i think that all don is asking, and i think what a lot of people have, people have a natural inclination, or at least they used to, to want to give people a presumption of innocence. i think what mel was saying is that she's gone through that and that when i start to hear, you know, four, five, six, the numbers add up, i can't tell you how many times i've had to defend cases years ago where that was what the prosecutor used to argue, that there was no reason, why would all these people have a similar story, why do they resonate? there's always a right, and i think it's something to be applaud, when people come to these kinds of accusations, with a natural skepticism, which is a function of a presumption of innocence, but at a certain point you do get to make up your mind. and there are certain recurring themes here that tend to resonate, and so it's okay
outside of a courtroom for people to come to a certain conclusion. it's just not okay, i suppose, to have a rush to it. and i understand -- i'm not here to defend whoopi, but i understand when she says maybe she's at an earlier spot than mel might have been at for a couple of minutes. >> by also hear she was saying as someone who is a celebrity, and i'm sure people have accused whoopi of things she didn't do, looking to be paid or looking for fame or looking for whatever it is. when you're a person who's in a public spotlight or someone who has means, people come after you and they see you as a big -- >> that's absolutely true. >> then by giving credence to it, by respond og to ing to it t rev it up again. >> i can't tell you how many times i've defended people and that very same -- everything you've just said, don, rings absolutely true. there's people who think, well, he's a celebrity, she's a celebrity, they've got money, i'm going to go after them. you deal with that. it's the numbers in this case
that make this thing so daunting, i think. >> and i find it -- >> quickly. >> i find it stunning, don, that there are four women sitting on that television show and not one of them had the guts to say wait a minute, 13 women saying something? there's more here than just a bunch of women that are fabricating something that i need to look into. >> go ahead. i've just been given more time. so you have a reprieve. mark, you can respond to that. >> i was just going to -- that's the real problem here. that's the problem. and you also saw -- one of the things, you saw them walk back today the idea that when they put out -- the lawyer put out a statement that it had nothing to do -- they specifically carved out the 2006 settlement. the reason for that, i'm going to guess, i'm going to speculate, is there was a non-disparagement, you couldn't say anything negative. and i'll bet you that the lawyer for the person in 2006 sent out a letter. >> the music means they're playing us off. thank you, mel. thank you, mark. >> nice to see you, don. great to see you, mark.
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and zero first month's payment on select new volkswagen models. it is all too familiar a story, really. a young man commits mass shooting. but in this case authorities say they averted it. blaec lammers' parents found his receipt for a gun and called the police. as a result blake is now serving two concurrent 15-year prison sentences. he didn't shoot anyone. and his parents say it was all a big misunderstanding, that he wasn't a threat but in need of help. but as our dr. sanjay gupta dug deeper he found troubling questions, which is what can happen when the fear of another tragedy runs smack into the complicated life of a family coping with mental illness. >> reporter: like other new inmates, he's locked up 23 hours a day. blaec lammers is 22 years old.
and i met him at the jefferson city correctional center. that's the maximum security prison in missouri that he now calls home. >> what did you do to get here? >> i bought two a.r.s. i didn't tell my mom. she found a receipt in my pocket. and then she called the sheriff's department. and then they came and found me. >> reporter: in the interrogation you were asked lots of questions. >> yes. >> reporter: at some point you said you had intended to cause people harm. >> yes. and the detective, he came out of nowhere and said i was going to threaten a movie theater. i just started agreeing with him because i knew either way he was going to find me -- he was going to charge me for something. >> reporter: police eventually did charge lammers with making a terrorist threat, first-degree assault, armed criminal action. >> reporter: would you have hurt anybody? >> no. i would hurt myself before i hurt someone else. >> reporter: while it is impossible to know what exactly what's going on inside blaec
lammers' mind when he bought those guns, we do know in this incident he didn't hurt anyone. no doubt blaec has had a troubled past. in 2011 he pled guilty to an assault on his co-worker at a mail facility. in 2009 he was arrested at walmart, carrying a butcher knife. he told a psychologist he had thought about killing a woman there. >> you think i just want to get on with my life. >> reporter: his parents, trisha and bill lammers, say that was all in the past, and they agreed to talk about it. including the day they called the police on their own son. >> i gathered up his clothes from the bathroom floor and came upstairs and was going through his pockets. then i found a receipt from walmart that he had bought a weapon for $865. i immediately went out in the garage and i called bill, and i said what do we do? >> reporter: was that the concern, that he was going to hurt somebody? >> my concern was he would take the guns and kill himself. >> reporter: you decided to call the authorities? >> the next day, thursday
morning i went to the sheriff's department with the receipt. >> reporter: according to police documents, blaec's mother, trisha, was concerned blaec might shoot people at a movie theater. she says not true, that they had twisted her words. she claims all she said was that blaec's gun looked like the one used by james holmes in the aurora, colorado shooting. she told me she wasn't worried about a mass homicide but rather a lonely suicide. what did they say to you? >> they said okay, mrs. lammers, thank you for coming. he didn't seem like he was too concerned. okay. thank you. >> reporter: tricia, why did they put him in jail? >> they said they were doing a well-being check. so they picked him up at sonic and said we need to take you to the police station for questioning. >> reporter: and in an instant the lives of this family changed forever. within minutes of meeting blaec you could feel and see and hear the cause of his parents' worry. he was a broken kid.
lots of smiles. but lots of pain. >> trying too hard to fit in with other people. at one point in my sophomore year in high school for a whole semester from august to december i ate lunch in the bathroom because i didn't know anybody. i didn't know anybody that ate lunch at that time. >> that's kind of sad, blaec. >> it is. looking back on it, it's like i should at least have tried to talk to people. but i was always shy in high school. i was afraid to talk to people because of what i would say and how it would come poupt. >> he played football and did basketball and did karate. >> reporter: diagnosed with dyslexia as a child, blaec struggled in school, but he eventually succeeded. by ninth grade he had lettered academically, made the dean's list, and was a 4.0 student. then seemingly overnight it all went downhill, and fast. >> within six months it went from wonderful to what is going on? we've got a serious problem.
>> reporter: soon he was in and out of hospitals. within just a couple years he was diagnosed with nearly a dozen different psychiatric illnesses. mood disorder, major depression, schizoid personality. so when blaec bought the guns, his parents felt they had to step in. they saw their son as a patient. but authorities saw that same troubled boy and concluded he should be a prisoner. >> did you have those thoughts? >> i did when i was 16. >> his mother thinks he's a gullible kid and easily led because of his mental illness. but prosecutors tell us he had a real plan to kill, he just didn't get a chance to carry it out. they believe they prevented a tragedy. psychologist john phillips treated blake at this hospital when he was 17. >> were you concerned he was a threat? >> in the four months he was at the hospital, he was the model resident. >> did you ever feel he was potentially a harm to others?
that was the concern, it seemed. >> i never once felt, you know, that he would ever try to hurt anyone on purpose. you know, i think that he wasn't a malicious child. he never actually ever acted out any of those threats. he never, ever once was violent in any way. >> how do you distinguish, then, the kid who was just talking, being a teenager, versus someone who could go out and do some serious harm? >> you have to find out what is going on, you know, in their head, and you've got to be able to assess whether their behavior is nur lojically based and just based on an environmental reaction or whether they are actually sociopathic, where they actually don't care about anybody, they just care about what they want. >> is that the distinction you see with blaec? >> oh, absolutely. >> he's being treated as a criminal mind -- >> exactly. >> but he has an autistic mind.
>> exactly. i think because of blaec's history of threatening they kind of put it all the way to the other extreme and really never gave him a chance to be rehabilitated. and where he is now there's no chanceing rehabilitated. you know? >> do you think prison is the right place for him? >> absolutely not. >> blaec also saw a psychiatrist, who had concerns. >> we kept a very close watch on him. >> reporter: he told us blaec's relationships were falling apart and he often talked about violence. even so, he agrees, blaec does not belong in jail. neither of these men who treated blaec were asked to testify at his trial. would it have made a difference? we'll never know. his parents have been shouting from the rooftops that their son is mentally ill and belongs in a hospital, not a prison. >> i went to the authorities for help and for them to just keep an eye on my son. i did not go there for the intention of him to be arrested. >> do you think that blaec would
have ever hurt anybody with these guns? >> no. >> trish, do you think that that could have ever happened? >> no. >> did blaec blame you because you went to the authorities? >> no. >> what were the conversations like with him? >> i have a letter he wrote me. "i've got nothing but time. we both can get through this. just don't lose hope. this is a very important time in our lives. we can do this together. so promise me to you'll stop blaming yourself for all of this." >> lucid. compassionate. thoughtful. >> yeah. >> reporter: just one hour with the person isn't enough to really understand what's running through their mind. but as jarring as it is to say out loud, it seems entirely possible that blaec lammers' only crime here is having a mental illness. >> your life now, here in this prison, is there anything about it that makes sense to you? >> this place is supposed to
help you. i don't think it is. i think prison is just supposed to kuip you away from society because society is scared of you. >> should they be scared of you, blaec? >> for what i said, yes. for actual me me, no. i didn't do anything to harm anybody out there. i was just an average 20-year-old kid living in a small town. >> and up next, i'm going to ask dr. gupta about his impressions of blaec lammers after their jailhouse interview and about the pain the young man's parents are living with now. ♪ the mercedes-benz winter event is back, with the perfect vehicle that's just right for you, no matter which list you're on. [ho, ho, ho, ho] lease the 2015 e350 for $599
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and dr. gupta joins me now to talk more about his exclusive jailhouse interview with blaec lammers. so sanjay, first things first. i've got to ask you, what was your first impression of blaec during this interview? >> well, you know, i was expecting obviously -- you go into a jailhouse interview, i was worried, would there be some anger issues if -- just because of the situation that he was in. but also if he felt that he was there wrongly how was he going to react to that, how was he
going to want to tell his story. i wasn't under any pretense that within an hour or so i'd fully understand him. but i've got to say, don, he was very soft-spoken. he comes and sits down. he's answering all the questions. looks you in the eye. there weren't those flashes of anger that i expected even remotely. so an hour's not enough, but that was sort of my impression over that time. >> is it different -- you said no flashes of anger. is he medicated now or do we know, has he ever been under a drug regimen? >> well, he's been on anti-depressants in the past. he's not currently on those medications. some have said that that's part of the issue, by the way, don, that you don't get the adequate level of medical care when you're in prison. regardless whether you're a prisoner or a patient, how you think of this issue, the patient should be treated in prison, that he should be treated, that was part of this. but he was not medicated when i saw him. >> and he's niz 2in his 20s. i think he's 22 years old, correct? and i know you're a father of three, your girls are not nearly
that age but time flies. sitting down as i apparent thinking -- because one doesn't know. you never know what's going to happen when your kid grows up. >> you go to talk to his parents, and i think any parent would probably be the same way. i'd probably be the same way. she started showing me scrapbooks of when he was a young boy. he's 6'2". you know, he's 22 years old, as you mentioned, a big guy. she still sees him as a little boy. and all those things. you know, his report cards from grade school when he, you know, was in scouts. just all these various things. that's how they still see him. so it's heartbreaking. certainly, they look at him as their little boy, and they see him in this situation now where they don't think he belongs. they don't think he's done anything wrong. >> so before i let you go, i want to offer our viewers a little takeaway here. sadly, when we hear about these shootings, after every shooting people always say there were signs that were missed. is there something that you can specifically point to usually in these instances or are we just
kidding ourselves? >> you can never tell for sure. you'd love to show the scientific answer to that question, don, but as you're alluding to, that's impossible with something like this. i will say that rampage shootings hardly ever happen spontaneously. so to that extent there probably are signs. people who are planning, who have the -- they may have even told people. maybe they weren't taken seriously, what they were saying. but there's usually some sign in that regard. but more to the person's character and personality, a lot of times they start to withdraw. they're not having sort of influence from friends or family members as much anymore. they become more isolated in many ways. lack of sleep. this seems like a very simple one, don. but that seems to be a precursor, oftentimes, before one of these strategies happened. people go for a long period of time without sleep. and what exactly that's doing to the brain is not clear. but these are some things people can watch for. obviously people going on and
off medications, not being on their medications, are signs as well. but don, you and i have talked about this. and it's worth saying again. people who have mental illness are likely to be victims of crime rather than perpetrators of crime. so that's a stigma that i think we should just deal with head on. >> dr. gupta, thank you. >> thank you. coming up, ferguson, the only -- only the latest example of rising tensions between police and the community there that they serve. stop and frisk is another. we're going to take a closer look at that next. [ male announcer ] we all think about life insurance. but when we start worrying about tomorrow, we miss out on the things that matter today. ♪ at axa, we offer advice and help you break down your insurance goals into small, manageable steps. because when you plan for tomorrow, it helps you live for today. can we help you take a small step? for advice, retirement, and life insurance, connect with axa.
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the shooting of michael brown in fergson just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to police tactics and minorities. there's tension between residents, police departments, communities all across the country. but do we have a police problem or do we have a race problem? here with me now, soledad o'brien. she's got a new documentary in her "black in america" series. it's called "black and bl blue:looking at the police and their stop and frisk policy." which has been very controversial. should we start with ferguson? >> absolutely. >> the criticism there, at least
one of them, was police were overmilitarized. yet they have to maintain order now. >> it's kind of the conundrum i think which is really what we look at in this documentary as well, how do you both protect civilians, citizens against crime, at the same time you're trying to figure out how to not criminalize people who have not done anything how do you not trample on people's civil rights? i think we've certainly seen a lot of hostility between the community and the police in ferguson. and there's no question that the nypd, which is the focus of our documentary, is very concerned about a similar thing. what are the challenges? we talk to a lot of young men, black and latino men in this documentary, who feel like one guy tells me he's been stopped 100 times. >> really? >> and if you think about that, you think about, okay, the first five times you're annoyed. by the tenth time you're angry, and by the 20th time you're furious. this kid has no criminal record. he's never been in trouble with the law. he's been stopped in front of his professors because they had to stop him on his way to college. stopped in front of his
classmates. he finds it incredibly humiliating. and we wanted to take a look at what that does to someone's psyche, to constantly be perceived as a criminal. at the same time we want to see what the police think as well. they have a job of protecting civilians and trying to make decisions often in a moment's notice. >> is this a guy -- is this luis in the documentary? >> luis -- this is someone else, a kid named keyshawn. but luis in the documentary is a guy who was witnessing sort of a stop and frisk spin out of control when suddenly he became the focus of the police attention. >> okay. >> five officers line up around me. the tallest officer, he tells me, are you some type of tough guy? and he tries to grab my left arm. so i move my left arm back. i said there's no reason for you to touch me. so i walk away. all the officers are continuing to follow me. so i get really nervous because i could hear like the buckles and the walkie-talkies and everything. when i turn around the tall officer punches me in the face.
i hit the floor and he screams "he's resisting arrest." and a swarm of officers from everywhere came to me. >> he ain't do nothing! >> he ain't do nothing! he ain't do nothing! >> how common is this in your research -- >> fairly common. i mean, all you have to do is do a quick google search on videotaped police beatings and you'll see a zillion of them come up. in luis's case he didn't even realize that a taxi driver was recording what was happening. he had no idea. he would go, he would be arrested, thrown into the wagon, brought off and processed. but in the end he was released. they never charged him with anything. he's had surgery on both of his shoulders. there's videotape later where the police pick him up with his hands behind him. they pick him up by his hands, ripping all of his muscles here. a guy who used to play football can barely do a pushup now. he's been psychologically injured. obviously physically injured as
well. >> and that was caught on videotape. and as i told you, i was with some friends this weekend, we were standing on my balcony. it was a great evening. we witnessed a stop and frisk. and we pulled out our phones. it's changed the game. >> completely changed the game. if you look at for example the killing of eric garner. imagine if someone had not been rolling on that conflict from the beginning. i think it really would have changed the conversation. cell phones have really changed a lot. i think the issue for me ultimately is you can't have a situation that's productive for a community like ferguson. ferguson is completely out of control. >> do you think stop and frisk would make a difference in a community like ferguson? >> i think that community has had such a host of problems where there is no trust. you cannot have a good relationship with the police if the police hate the community and the community hates the police. >> right. >> they need the community. they need them to tell them where the problems are. they need to work together. it is completely dysfunctional.
i know for a fact that the nypd, when you'd ask them about the impact of ferguson, they were absolutely -- no comment, which was pretty indicative of how worried they are about that. >> what about body cameras? because ferguson they're starting to use -- >> the nypd told me they're considering body cameras as well. and i think for many police officers they think it's a great idea. if they feel justified in a stop they wouldn't mind at all having it on camera. i think that certainly for journalists the more video to be able to corroborate what people are telling you with the video that you see is valuable. we have tons of video in this documentary. and it's been really i think helpful in seeing how a situation unfolds and sometimes it's deadly. >> it's fascinating. and i wouldn't expect anything less from you, soledad o'brien. >> oh, you flatter. >> it's so good to see you. >> great to see you too. >> make sure you tune in. the one-hour "black in america" special, "black & blue" premieres tomorrow night at 9:00 p.m. we'll be right back. aspirin regimen. ♪
everybody knows that. well, did you know genies can be really literal? no. what is your wish? no...ok...a million bucks! oh no... geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. 6. each week we're spotlighting the top ten cnn heroes of 2014. when this week's honoree learned about the lack of access to fitness training faced by the
disabled in his city, well, he got to work on the best way he knew how. and i want you to meet ned norton now. >> when i'm running, i feel limitless. being in motion makes me feel free. when you're really pushing yourself, that's when you really feel alive. but there are millions of people around the world that are facing severe physical limitations. they can't be independent. they can't live their lives. i spent years training olympic athletes, football players, bodybuilders. one day a young guy, newly spinal cord injured, came to the gym asking for help. at first i didn't know what to do. but we just worked together. we made tremendous progress. took a breath. reach out. reach out. bring it back. before you knew it, my phone rang off the hook. with people asking for help. bring it up. >> so i opened a gym designed to fit their needs. >> ready to go to work? >> heck, yeah. >> for the past 25 years i've provided strength and
conditioning training for people with disabilities. >> push. stretch up. nice job. >> people come to me when they're at their lowest. >> up, up, up, up. hold it. rack it. >> awesome. >> they come to the gym, and all of a sudden you have a natural support network. >> in 1971 i broke my back, and i've been in a wheelchair ever since. >> that's it, tom. >> thanks to ned, i keep my upper body strength at a maximum. i've been able to live a full life. >> i never worry about what they can't do. i worry about what they can do. >> i can do it, ned. >> yes, you can. good job. >> i did up to ten. >> i'm building them up, building them stronger so they can go out and live life like they're supposed to. >> cnn heroes, an all-star tribute, hosted by anderson cooper airs sunday december 7th. we'll honor all of our top ten cnn heroes and reveal the one you choose to be the cnn hero of the year.
i'm don lemon. thanks for watching. our coverage continues now with john vause, rosemary church from the cnn center in atlanta. have a good night. i'll see you back here tomorrow i'll see you back here tomorrow night. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com hello, and thanks for joining us here on cnn. i'm rosemary church. >> and i'm john vause. we'd like to welcome our viewers in a brutally cold united states and all around the world. up next, the parents of a man brutally murdered by isis speak out. >> also ahead, the governor has declared a state of emergency. and the fbi warns police to be on alert. the new evidence in the michael brown shooting that could add fuel to the fire in ferguson, missouri. and we're live in hong kong where police are an