tv CNN Newsroom With Brooke Baldwin CNN December 7, 2015 11:00am-1:01pm PST
america. >> i totally agree republicans need to do that. the president does not. >> an agreement here. we'll leave the show on an agreement. thank you both for being with us. that is all for me. the news continues, right now. i'm poppy harlow in for brooke baldwin. today radicalize d and reaching out for terror group to call their own investigators. piecing together the lives of the husband and wife terrorists who left their baby, their 6-month-old and slaughtered 14 people at a holiday gathering in san bernardino, california. we're now waiting for the fbi to update us on the investigation. a live press conference expected in just about one hour's time. we'll bring that to you as soon as it begins. this happens as new picture surfaces of the two of them together, the first showing the killers together. cnn has now learned that the husband syed rizwan farook had
recently looked into contacting al qaeda affiliates overseas. his father over the weekend telling a newspaper that he knew his son had had come to support the isis goal of creating a caliphate or islamic state and was fixated on his hatred for israel. but despite all of this, there's a new theory e emerging that it was his wife who was the true architect of the radicalization. pamela brown is joining us, who has been digging on this and working sources. you're the one who got this picture of them. i just want you to walk us behind what we know about it. >> this picture was taken at chicago's o'hare airport in the summer of 2014. this was in july. this was as soon as this couple, now married murders, if you will, arrived after being in saudi arabia. she came can here tashfeen malik on this fiance visa. from then obtained conditional
green card. this is the first picture of the two of them together. this is in the immigration file from which he came here to the u.s. now there's a lot of scrutiny about this visa program she came under. given the fact that she was one of the people involved with this massacre and also fushls i've been speaking with said she may have been radicalized before she stepped foot into the u.s. the question is being raised, well, how did she get the clearance and pass all the security measures to come to the u.s. and obtain this visa. >> what about the fact it appears that the husband reached out to contact with al qaeda overseas but yet his father now says he was following al baghda baghdadi, these inspirations it seems. >> the officials i have been speaking to say e we can't label
this yet as just isis inspired or just al qaeda inspired. it could be a variation, a combination of these different terrorist groups. this could be our new reality. but clearly, there were indications that syed rizwan farook was radicalized. we heard it from the father and now the more investigators dig into his background, he did look into reaching overseas terrorist groups that the wife had pledged allegiance to al baghdadi. the fbi said there were no trip wires that they hit or no red flags that were missed, but that process is still ongoing. those questions are still there whether the fbi missed something. but also the question is being raised why didn't the father who knew his son follow or the mother who loved with them and this house with the bomb. s, why u didn't they speak up to law enforcement. i can tell you the fbi is asking that question and so often these cases say it's the people close
to them who see they are radicalized and it's important for hem to speak up. >> later in the hour, we'll talk about the legal obligation where they have to speak up. but what's fascinating to me is sort of part of their operation seems sloppy in that some of these pipe bombs didn't work. they had this home made bomb lab in their home, but digitally they covered their tracks incredibly well. that's what your sources say, right? >> they actually said they did a pretty good job erasing their digital footprint. they smashed their cell phones and threw them in the garbage. the hard drive was destroyed. clear lir they didn't want to leave behind a a calling card or a footprint here and they were able to cover their tracks pretty well. but the fbi has some very sophisticated tool s s to retri
electronics, though this information is not easily accessible, there's a layered approach to this kind of thing and will not stop trying until they are able to retrieve as much as they can. >> you'll bring it to us as soon as you know from your sources. thank you very much for all of that on the investigation. i want to go to paul in redlands, california, where the house is where they found this home made bomb lab. the investigation certainly expanding. today what are they looking at? when i was there a few days ago, they had already gone through the garage in question. >> one neighbor called the bm factory is now closed down and got everything out of here that it wanted. one place the investigation has expanded to is the childhood friend and neighbor of farook. this neighbor is the person who in san diego purchase d the rifles that were used in the massacres. and the fbi has gone back twice and done a consensual search of
the house to determine if anymore weapons were purchased. marquez was so distraught after hearing about the carnage na that he checked himself into a mental fult and con if you remembered he did not show up. for work. he was traumatized by all this. he's the person who bought the rifles. >> what more do we know this in. terms of tashfeen malik? we have learned about her background as a student. she was a pharmacy student in pakistan. what do we know about her time at university? >> from what we understand, she was a rather good student. we had a chance to speak with one of her professors, and here's what he had to say about her. >> she is very humble and very
cool and calm. and very good in study. >> reporter: so malik and farook come into the country together. we have that picture where she's on her way to try to become an american citizen by virtue of the fiance visa. you're supposed to get married 90 days after that so you don't have a phoney or arranged marriage. one immigration official saying she was clean as a whistling. so her record, no criminal record, didn't raise any alarms and in this this neighborhood behind me in this townhouse with its shared wall on the right and shared on the left, nobody saw anything that made them believe that this couple was in here amassing an arsenal. one more thing i'd like to act. his job is a government job, a
county job. you go through the process, you get great benefits and if you stay with it for awhile it promises a great nesting. none of what they did raised any alarm bells here. >> that's the scariest part. cullers living among us with zero red flags for authorities to see. paul, thank you as always. also want to update you on new details about a man with a knife who stabbed two people on saturday night in london in a subway station. he screamed "this is for syria presidents." . the attacker tried to behead one of the victims. hooeps 2 -- he's 29 years old. we have just learned that he's set to appear in court on friday. that as dramatic video of his takedown surfaces.
>> paul cruickshank is with me now from london. where to begin with this? something in broad daylight what he reportedly yelled this is for syria. we're hearing graphic accounts of how this happened. what do you know? >> those accounts are disturbing because he wrestled a member of the public to the ground allegedly and then got his heads, held it in his hand and started sawing on his neck with a sharp knife as if to be. head this member of the public. now he didn't follow through and completely behead him. this person is recovering now in a stable condition in a hospital. some members of the public started shouting at him distracting him to a certain degree. it took several attempts to taser him before they were able to restrain him and take him into custody. on husband cell phone they found isis images including isis
flags. they found pictures and content relating to the paris attacks and also the san bernardino attacks. so it's quite possible he was unspired. he was a copy cat after those attacks we saw play out in california. this appears to be an isis-inspired attack in the united kingdom at a time when there's heightened concern with the isis threat. both isis directed and isis inspired. the prime minister said that there have been seven isis-inspired plots thwarted in the uk. there's a vote in the house of commons last week to authorize airstrikes in syria and this appears perhaps to be a reaction to that. >> and also want to ask you about some numbers we just got into us here. a u.s. official saying the latest estimate is the coalition airstrikes have killed more than 23,000 isis fighters since the war began. how significant or insignificant
is that number in the broader pu picture? >> they have taken out some senior figures in the group including the number two. the problem is isis keeps on replenishing its ranks. there's foreign fighters going in and still controls an e enormous amount of territory in syria and in. iraq, but also now increasingly in libya. that give it is a certain amount of legitimacy and persuasive powers when it comes to its followers around the world that they do believe they are divine tail winds behind isis because of all its success and that makes them want to carry out attacks in its name as we saw play out in california, in london, in paris and elsewhere unfortunate lu over o tly over year. >> paul cruickshank, thank you very much. another attack over the weekend in london. investigators not able to look a the couple's phone
records for many years. why is that? because just four days before the brutal massacre in san bernardino, part of the nsa's controversial program end ed. how it impacts the race for answers. also a neighbor reportedly says she didn't tell authorities about the couple's suspicious behavior because she was afraid of being called a racist u. we're going to talk about the legal line. how far can and should you go? and break moments ago shs the city of chicago releasing the video of another police deadly shooting resulting in the death of an african-american man. the prosecutor will not press charges against the officer. the man's mother responds live in just moments. stay with us. the great beauty of owning a property is that you can create wealth through capital appreciation, and this has been denied to many south africans for generations.
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another video was just released showing officers using force in shug. we want it to show you the video just released. >> running around the cornerer coming in the direction of the officer. the officer is drawing her weapon. this is officer hernandez in president backseat. there's johnson running behind. you e see the flash of the shots
coming from hernandez. hernandez was the officer closest to johnson. >> after releasing the video, the top prosecutor said she would not file charges against the officer who shot and killed 25-year-old ronald johnson. it happened in october of last year. >> it is our determination that no criminal charges will be file d against officer hernandez in connection with the shooting death of ronald johnson. the totality of the evidence establishes the following. at the time of the shooting, mr. johnson was armed with a handgun. mr. johnson had run from an area where shots had recently been fired. mr. johnson resisted arrest and mr. johnson ran into a public park and towards an occupied police vehicle that was arriving on the scene in that park. based on an objective review of the evidence and the law, we have determined that the prosecution could not establish
beyond a reasonable doubt that the actions of officer her nnanz were not reasonable and permissible under the laws of the state of illinois. >> let's dig deeper on this. i want to bruing in ryan young n chicago. and civil rights attorney charles cole man who is with me in new york. ryan, this video comes days after johnson's mother was live on this show with brook. she demanded that this video be released. she said that the gun was planted on him. walk us through what this video shows. >> we have seen the video a few times and we went to that lawyer's office for ronald johnson. they are claiming that gun was planted afterwards, that he could have been shot in the back and had the gun not fly out of his hand. they kept saying once people saw this video they would feel the same way about the other
shooting. so now with this video out and you heard they just laid this entire case out from the 9/11 tapes from the video, from the police perspective. that's what so many people wanted. they wanted the transparency. this case happened eight days before the mcdonald case and now it's been over 400 days since this has happened. so this family decembsperately wanted to see this officer charged. we now know that's not going to happen. the initial response so far from some people have been clapping for alvarez in terms of having her show this video and explain everything. other people still believe there's issues with the police report that was placed into evidence as well. the fact that they don't believe that the tape showed that they turned and tried to fire officers at all. there's still questions about this entire case. at this point, the initial reaction to the video has been one that seems supporting alvarez she will not charge this officer. >> it is important to note there's only so much we can see on the video. we don't see some of the actions
before them crossing the street or when he's off screen there. charles, to you, from a legal perspecti perspective, is it legal for an officer to shoot someone who is running away from them? that we can see. but who also, according to police, defied numerous orders to stop and drop the weapon. >> it is not. now for that officer or for those officers to instruct that individual to stop and him to continue to keep going and not obey their orders, at that point, he has resisted arrest. e he hasn't done so in a forceful fashion to automatically require or allow for those officers to use deadly force. >> isn't it an officer's job to protect someone -- protect the public. so. if someone is running with a gun, they don't know where that individual is going to run, who they may or may not shoot at. does that give them the right to
shoot that person. >> poppy, i think that's one of the things that makes this case a little more interesting and less straight forward than the mcdonald situation. those officers at least by appearance of the short video which we have acknowledged doesn't show the entire incident. those officers may struggle to articulate what the immediate threat to any public safety or public harm was. as you said, he's running in public. e he runs into a park. we don't know who was in the park or whether there was anyone in the park. it does not seenl there's an immediate threat to officer safety because he's running away from them and he's shot in the back. that's the central issue this turns on. if you're going to say you acted because you were trying to support public safety, what is the threat to public safety that you can arctticulate was immediate. >> you have covered chicago in this topic extensively. the video comes out hours after u.s. attorney general loretta lynch announces this wide
ranging investigation of the chicago p.d. let's listen. >> the department of justice has opened an investigation into whether the police department engaged in a pattern or plaqrace of violations of the constitution or federal law. specifically, we will examine a number of issues related to the police department's use of force including its use of deadly force, ethnic disparities in its use of force skpits accountability mechanisms. >> so just to to give some context for our viewers. we're also about the wake of an officer in chicago p.d. a different officer in a different case charged with first-degree murder after he shot and killed one 16 times in 2014. what strikes you the most given the doj opened this investigation today? >> well, what is the
consequential thing is the police department actions that have been controversial through the years are now going to go under the microscope of an independent entity that's going to look at policies and data and practices and whatever the remedy is in what could be a months-long investigation, the city needs to agree with it and the enforcement mechanism is going to be a federal judge, not mayor emanuel or the city council. so a lot is going to be put on the table u. the johnson videotape you showed, the mcdonald tape, which i think was a lot clear er. the city released the police reports talking about the incident and this is the video you do not see. and showed the cops told a different story than what was on the tape.
>> let's talk about that if our viewers who may not have heard that part of it yet. as i do, i want to show you the video of of the dash cam video of the la-quan mcdonald deadly shooti shooting. you e see him running down the street here. what you're talking about is the fact that late friday night what was revealed were the accounts that police officers on the scene gave to their superiors in chicago p.d. about the shooting. six of them agreed with the officer, who is now charged with first-degree murder, saying that la-quan was approaching them. one of them saying he believed mcdonald was attacking them. and that is not what we see on the videotape. . >> this is going to be part of the civil rights investigation that the justice department is going to carry out. just so viewers don't get confused, this is going to be a second investigation. there's a long running federal investigation of the criminal action that resulted that we
don't know the outcome of that yet. the states attorney charged the police officer. but all this to sum up means that the trust and confidence in the people of chicago has been shaken. there's protests in the streets. i think there may be even be at least one more videotape of a police shooting coming out. so we'll be hearing from mayor emanuel at the top of the hour in chicago to hear what he has to say to it. he had first resisted the justice department probe that was launched today. >> i want you to all stay with me. i got to get a break in here. we're waiting to hear from ronald johnson's mother. stay with us.
investigators hunt for answers in the san bernardino attack new questions right now about what the fed's can do when it comes to digging into this couple, these mass murder's past. their digital past specifically. the nsa last month four days ago its controversial bulk data surveillance program. that program began after the 9/11 attacks and allowed the government to review and analyze five years worth of phone records for the couple involved in the san bernardino attack. now they cannot collect that much data. the operation came under fire two years ago after former nsa contractor edward snowden leaked key details of it. investigators are working under a new set of rules and stipulations to try to examine these killers' communications. this couple tried to erase their digital footprint. they smashed cell phones and removed hard drives.
joining me now is former deputy director and air force colonel cedrick lateen. also is former director of national cyber security center. when you look at this, you want to be very clear here. what we know is that this program changed four days before this attack and now what is legally allowed is two years of bulk data collection, not five. it's also critical because the wife just came to the united states two years ago. does that make a critical difference in what investigators can gather here, the two versus five years? >> usually most of the things that you see are going to be that immediate period before a a terrorist attack. it you're conducting a law enforcement investigation, you are going to go back from the time of that incident and you will go into their past as much as you can.
so if you only have two years of data that you can collect, that may lumt the far past and won't eliminate the immediate past. it just depends on how much they moved around during that two-year period. whether or not there was travel and also the types of communication modes they used during that period. >> i want you both to listen to gop presidential candidate donald trump and governor chris christie. they are both in favor of masseur surveillance. here's what they said over the weekend about it. >> it's so wrong for congress and the president to pull back on surveillance capability with the nsa. so wrong did demoralize communications at end of this last year. the fact is that we need to strengthen our intelligence, strengthen our law enforcement community, and just work as hard as we can to try to intercept this. >> you have people that have to be tracked.
and we better be vigilant. we have to have it. if we don't, we're foolish people. >> does the curtailing of this program hurt those efforts? >> you know, referring to the other commentator, i think that two years is an awful lot of data. it's still available here most likely through the phone companies. plus if if malik was living overseas until two years ask. suspected a at all, there could be phone records from those previous activities. so i think it's extremely unlikely that this change is going to lead to any denigration in the quality of investigation that can be done. >> cedrick, pamela brown reported on the smashed cell phones, hard drives, but also was telling me earlier in the program about how good the fed's are at this. . how good the cyber security experts are at retheresaing data
even from smashed phones. what can they get? >> they can get a lot of things. it also depends on how those phones were smashed. if the data that is resident on the phones themselves is destroyed, that becomes a bit of an issue. but most of the time when people smash phones, they are not zero liezing the data. the data needs to do that before it can be considered to be unreadable. and the fed's are good at getting into data that is destroyed in a physical sense. they can also get into data that is deleted in an electronic sense. there are lots of ways they have that pamela brown's report is exactly right. they do some good work and can find most traces in a cyber forensic fashion that normal investigators would not with be able to find. >> gentlemen, thank you very much. much more to talk about here. we'll have you both back.
thank you. next, a neighbor of the san bernardino shooter reportedly says she did not report the couple's suspicious behavior. why? because she was apparently afraid of being labeled a a racist. in the era of see is something say something, where should society draw the line and where is the legal line? we'll debate that, next. i've smoked a lot
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time talking about witness a. i want to talk about their investigation before we get into witness a. anita alvarez got in front of the tv cameras at her press conference today and said that she relied on the independent investigation. but then she referred to it as the police partner. it is amazing to me that anita alvarez relied on investigation and had the nerve to say that today and that she didn't tell the mayor that she was releasing the video, but she had the nerve to say that she relied on the investigation when 12 to 14 hours ago the head of the organization was resigned or was fired because of the shotty investigations that they do. the head of the organization resigned and the states attorney
says i relied on the investigation. that is a joke. that is an absolute joke. it is in and it is a front to the people of cook county in chicago. i received a call friday night at 5:00 from a member of the states attorney office, a supervisor, who asked me if if i had had any evidence to show that officer hernandez planted a weapon. he asked me, the plaintiffs attorney on this case, and e he knew me, if i had had evidence to give to the states attorney's office. had called me after the mayor said the video is going to be released if i could provide them with information. anita alvarez has at her disposal a fleet of investigators. she has subpoena power. she has grand jury power to
subpoena people in front of the grand jury. none of this was done. instead she calls the plaintiff's lawyer friday night and says, what do you got? i told them that we would cooperate fully if there was an investigation, which there was not. i called them back saturday afternoon and said, i'm happy to come in monday afternoon and meet with members of the state's attorneys office. i told them we would cooperate fully, come in and meet to discuss this case. i was put on hold for about three minutes. they hung up on me. they had no desire to meet with me. there was no investigation on this case. i have a personal list of witnesses of depositions that have been taken in this kicase. incidentally the detective has
been a police officer for around 20 years. she was eligible to be a detective somewhere around 2003 or 2004. she was not made a detective. she was an eyewitness to this case and indicated she handcuffed ronald johnson after shot. she was made a detective three months after she gave testimony she saw a gun in ronald johnson's hand. sergeant thompson, officer jones, costello, gonzales, and hernandez. in addition to zufl ycivilian w. not one of those has been contacted by the states attorneys office. not one of those has been subpoenaed for a grand jury investigation. not one of those witnesses has given any testimony to the states attorneys office or to a federal investigation. officer hernandez.
and she has the nerve to say she relied on the investigation. officer hernandez has not been asked to give a statement. he has not been contacted by ip ra. they were waiting for the state to let them know what the investigation would have. the state says they are waiting. this is a joke. it's the blind leading the blind. officer hernandez, however, talked to me. because he gave a six-hour deposition. you heard a snippet of his deposition on the short film. officer hernandez sat there with the attorney and agreed to talk to us and give a deposition. among the thing he is indicated in his videotape and it was hard to hear was that when he fired the gunshot, i asked his demeanor. he said i was a bit startled. he just murdered ronald johnson. he says he was a bit startled.
i asked him if he feared or had any concerns that the states attorneys office was going to indict him. he said no. that deposition was taken almost a month ago. how in the world was he going to know that he was not going to be indicted? how in the world does e he know that his position is safe and anita alvarez is going to do nothing unless he was told so by anita afl resident or someone from her office. it's amazing to me nobody contacted him, nobody attempted to contact him, he was confident he was not going to get indicted and he fully gave a six-hour deposition a about this case. it's amazing that the plaintiffs lawyers are the only ones able to talk to him when the full power of the states attorneys office and police are view authority have done nothing. she spent a a great deal of time trying to build a case against ronald johnson and talked about witness a, who said he saw a
weapon and heard a weapon and there were shells in the car. apparently anita alvarez has never read one deposition in this case. the depositions in this case taken under oath rely on what a nknee ta told you today. we don't have all day so i'll quote from witness a's deposition. question, you never thought it was a gun or anything until the police started telling you that a gun was found and there was no way that the bullet could get in the car without a gun being there. is it your testimony that the idea of a gun came from detectives and not you? witness a has no criminal background whatsoever. that's correct. did the idea come from detectives and not you? answer, that's correct.
and did you tell that to the assistant state's attorney that this idea of a gun came from detectives and not you? no, sir, why not? by the time i had the conversation with the states attorneys, i had conjured this notion, the story that i told her was the story we had. me and the detectives logically came to because of the situation. and what they present ed to me. . spoken to me at the detectives at that point. so when i went in to have the conversation, the conversation i had can the states attorney before going into the room we had there was a clear line of events and things that were already going to be in the story. was it a lie that you thought it was a gun? was it a lie i thought it was a gun? i couldn't.
say that. >> the attorney for ronald johnson and his family. as soon as ronald johnson's mother begins to speak, we will bring that to you live. i do want to because this is kind of in -- let's break down the critical things we have heard so far. lynn, i think what stood out to me most of what the attorney said is he kept blasting the independent police review authority. that's what the states attorney said, look, we relied on this independent body to investigate the chicago p.d. this attorney is saying no way, no how, the blind leading the blind. you know this city inside and out. which is it? >> no one really has -- there's no credibility or trust left in these self-police iing units. interestingly, this question came up during the attorney general lynch's press conference
today when she was asked should this investigation include the cook county states attorney since so few officers are charged. and things are taking a long time and attorney general lynch said our investigation is focused on the force and accountability within the police did the. so it's not focusing on the states attorney, but as a side note here when you talk about the minutiminutia, the states ay anita alvarez is facing a democratic primary election this march. she has two opponents and her prospects for reelection are in big trouble. >> political element to all of this. i want to get your take as well. maybe we can show some of the video that was just released today of this shooting. because what you see is ronald johnson running across the street after a a party, an incident and running across the street. he's shot. the question we addressed before is whether or not it's legal for the officers to shoot him.
where does the city go from here? they said there was no investigation in this case. he said officer hernandez has not spoken with the states attorneys office, but he talked about a six-hour deposition that he did with the officer. >> listening to what the defense attorney had to say, there's a big problem in chicago. we have a serious problem with respect to this investigation and how it's conducted. if 60% of what was just said is true if not contacting him, he being the only one who took the deposition of the officer who fired the shots and the question of whether there was a gun, there's going to be serious digging on behalf of the department of justice into this situation. it's only going to immerse the chicago police department further. >> isn't it important to note the court of public opinion can try a case like this within the context of everything else surrounding police and policing in this country right now.
but in actual court cannot. it can only address the facts of this case. >> that cuts both ways. a legal perspective, sure, with what you said the law is the law. there's no compromising that regardless of how the public feels about it. but you have to remember that even though the law is the law shs the law as it is applied is applied by jurors. and jurors are susceptible to the court of public opinion. >> they are not supposed to be. >> but having done trials, it happens. regardless of how clear the law may be or how clear the facts may seem, the court of public opinion plays a role in how these things play out. >> charles, thank you. lynn, thank you. up next, minutes from now an update from the fbi, a live press conference in the investigation into these two mass murders in the san bernardino attack. we'll bring that to you live.
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even curvier. but what's next? for all binge watchers. movie geeks. sports freaks. x1 from xfinity will change the way you experience tv. at any moment the fbi will hold a news conference on the investigation into that massacre last week in san bernardino. we'll bring that to you live as soon as it begins. let's talk about this attack. it's reigniting the debate over roeshl profiling in this country. you heard president obama last night insisting any measure to target muslims is exactly what the enemy wants. >> if we are to succeed in defeating terrorism, we must enlist in the strongest allies
rather than push them away rough suspicious and hate. that doesn't mean denying the fact that ideology has spread within some muslim communities. it's a problem that muslims must confront. muslim leaders here and around the globe have to continue working with us to decisively and une kwifically reject those ideologies. >> let's talk more about it with the president of the muslim association of britain. you heard the president speak last night asking faith leaders to do more. is he right? >> i think the president has got it right that definitely there needs to be more work with the muslim communities because the problem of terrorism generally is a jr. complex situation.
i don't think it can be dealt by one side in particular. sure, the muslim leaders have a role to play. the governments have a role to play. the different institutions have a role to play. if we work together, we're more likely to achieve something rather than working in spite of each other. definitely by not alienating the muslim communities all marginalizing the youth, which adds to the problem rather than solve it. >> i want you to take a listen to both donald trump shs the gop front runner and his competitor in the gop race chris christie. what they both said yesterday. >> it. they thought there was something wrong with that group and saw what was happening and they department want to call the police because they didn't want to be profiling, i think it's pretty bad. people are dead right now. so everybody wants to be politically correct. >> e we don't need to be
profiling o in order to be able to get the job done here. increase surveillance, creating relationships with mosques and the muslim american community across the country. >> we're going to get back to that in a minute. you're looking live at an fbi press conference being held in san bernardino. the fbi is speaking, let's listen in. >> the sheriffs department as well as the assistant special agent in charge from the atf. today we're going to g through a number of things and answer some of your questions. we're going to open it up for a few questions. i want to talk about the work that has been done. this is not been a restful weekend, nor should it be. our job is to continue the investigation at breakneck speed as long as we need to do that and we will do exactly that. i want there was a search
warrant executed at the center street address last weekend. i want to make it clear because we're getting a lot of calls about misbehavior. the reality is when the fbi or any law enforcement organization executes a search warrant, we obtain legal process signed by a federal or state judge. we then make entry into those premises and we will take the items that can be seized under the scope of that warrant. that is what was done that day. when we lead the residents, we will either hand the keys to the owner, or we will secure the residents if it was breached as was the case in had this incident. wre secured it with screws and wood and left the premises. once the fbi and local partners
left those premise, anything that occurred as far as forced entry or anyone allowed into that residence has absolutely nothing to do with us, whether they were allowed in by the residents or the landlord. secondly, i want to clarify. we briefed you a couple days ago about the pipe bomb component that were taken and some of the pipes and some of the components of pipe bombs that were removed from the house. we gave you a number of 12. i don't want to get too technical because i'm not an expert on bombs, however, we have experts this did that zup search and removal of all those devices and ult patly it appears there are 19 pipes in that house that we have removed. some were in a bag. we're not going to unpack them one by one. they had to remove all these
components and take them out to a range and began to saufly extract them from the bag and safely pull them apart and count all the components, photograph all the components and ultimately admit them into evidence. that is 19 pipes that could be turned into pipe bombs if all the components are there and present for them to actually be. construed that way. next i want to talk about the radicalization issue. many of you had questions about did the female radicalize the male in this case. the answer is we still do not know, but i will say this, as the investigation has progressed, we have learned and believed that both subjects were radicalized and have been for quite some time. how did that happen?
i will tell you right now we don't know those answers at this point. next thing along those lines is we are working with our foreign counterparts to determine as much as we can. it's like any other investigation, but this one is incredibly large. we are attempting to expand that investigation out and build it and build a picture of each person, the time line and the crimes they committed. that takes time. we are in day five and i want everyone to recognize that. we are also working with the fbi's legal offices, which are all over the world. they are assisting in those efforts with our foreign counterparts. next thing i want to mention has come up already. we do have evidence that both of these subjects did some target practice in some ranges within the metro area or los angeles
area. that target practice in one occasion was done within days of this event. the scope of this investigation i want to discuss very quickly. this investigation is massive in scale. everyone knows that. we have conducted between well over 400 interviews by now of people around this city. i know some of them have called you and said they have been interviewed. that's fine. that's what we do. we'll continue to do as many interviews as necessary for this. finally, there's been some questions about the total station and recreation of the crime scene. what we are doing is applying survey technology to the crime scene. when i'm talking about the crime scene, i'm talking about the initial crime scene at the irc where all the victims were -- i'm not talking about the officer-involved shooting. yes, we're still holding that
location because we are continuing to be extremely methodical. we have brought in a reconstruction team to apply those tools to ultimately paint that. picture of how everything transpired that day. we have collected over 320 pieces of evidence in this investigation so far. we have transported a numb of those pieces of evidence to washington, d.c., primarily to our laboratory, our bomb lab, analytical center. the last thing i want to talk about before i open up for questions we have found evidence of planning, participation, finance iing. what will i will tell you this. we have found evidence of preplanning. let me correct that. what i want to say is you want to make sure the public rest
assured we are an apolitical organization and we will get to to the bottom of this. we want to find out everyone who participated in the preplanning, if there was anyone else. we don't know everything yet. we want to find out everyone. who profits from it, financed it, and i'm not saying there is anything like that, but we will leave no stone unturned. just like i have said in the past. the last thing is we have to remember this is a human tragedy. this is truly a tragedy what occurred. we have brought out office of victims assistance personnel from washington and this is what they do. they are very familiar with this. we are going to at some point hopefully this week meet with the family members of the vi victims both the decedents victims and injured victims. that is a crucial part for us to allow them to ask questions so we can address them face to face
and talk to them about our full commitment. that f they don't want to meet with us, that's their choice and we understand. very important. i'm going to take a few questions, not as many as i did the other day. >> we do not see any evidence so far of an plot outside the continental u.s. we may find it some day, we may not, we don't know. but right now we're looking at these two individuals and beginning to focus on building it out from there. i'm not sure if we're done questioning her yet. >> early reports tashfeen malik had ties to the red mosque. any investigation uncovered that? >> i have heard those same reports. we're continuing to work with our overseas partners and legal
offices to determine that answer. >> i'm not going to get into that at this point. >> it was reported to the fbi several years ago by somebody who was suspicious about him. >> we did not have an open investigation into farook at the time of this incident. >> i wouldn't say he's uncorrect. we're in the investigative phase. we're in day five. >> do you have any indication how long they were radicalized? >> we don't know that. we don't know. we have some indications of time line, but we don't have enough
for me to speak on at this this point. that's the question for us is how and by whom and where were they radicalized. maybe there's not a by whom. often times t the on the internet and we don't know. >> what can you tell us about the origin of the guns? >> i'm going to allow the atf to address that question. all thing guns, hold your questions just a minute. >> there have been reports that the man had interaction on social media with a man from minneapolis who you all have been tracking. can you con if you remember that? >> i heard those reports. i'm not aware of the facts of that yet. >> what's the status of marquez and where is he now? has he been arrested and charged? >> ooi'm not prepared to discus that at this point. >> is he being question ed?
>> i don't know the answer to that. >> we have not found any evidence of suicide vests yet. >> with the preplanning, any idea how long, weeks, months, the preplanning was on this? >> we don't know. i'm going to take one more question. >> video was there and does the video show any of these shooters clearly identified? >> we're still going through what type of video is available. back to the data exploitation, there is continued data exploitation that is going on as we speak. that will continue for some time. that is a pain staking process. that, as i have said in the past, we hope to get towards their intent with some of the data exploitation of the digital media. at this point i'm going to introduce special agent in charge john deangello.
>> ooum going to talk briefly about the guns. it's been widely reported in the media there were five guns involved in this investigation. recovered throughout this investigation. from what we have traced those guns and what the trace results reveal is that all these firearms were originally purchased from california from a time period between 2007 and 2012. ffl is a term we use for federal firearms license see, a retailer who sells firearms. farook himself purchased a lama pistol that recovered at the scene as well as the savage .22 caliber rifle covered during the search warrant. we have both the federal documentation and the california documentation to establish that he actually purchased the firearm. his name and identifying information appears on all that paperwork.
marquez purchased the two assault rifles that you have shown on the media. we have the paperwork documenting those purchases as well. right now, our major concern for the fbi is determining how those firearms and rifles in particular got from marquez to farook and malik. the firearms at present are at the fbi laboratory where the fbi is performing forensic examination on them. after that forensic examination is done, we'll do a complete and thorough examination and determination of just exactly what these firearms are. right now i'm going to turn it over to the chief who will address other issues pend iing the matter. >> everybody saw what happened
in the city of riverside yesterday what was believed to be an active shooter incident. it brought about a massive police response. that's indicative of the fact people are on edge and extra cautious, which is good. that's what we're asking people to do. the massive response really came as a result of local law enforcement that has stepped up controls and presence in the region. the city of san bernardino has been on a 12 on, 12 off since the incident happened on wednesday. we are getting to the point where we're going to start letting some of our guys have some days off and be home with their family. rest assured we will have increased staffing, a number of additional folks working overtime to provide safety and security in the region. i think i speak for the sheriff as well when i say we have stepped up our efforts. we will be there for people. you will see an increased presence in our city and in the immediate region through the christmas holiday season. thank you very much. future press conferences will be announced by the fbi. we'll see you in a bit.
>> there you have it. a press conference from the fbi. local police and atf there in california. a lot to go through. many. major developments and headlines. the biggest headline that we have learned out of this is according to the fbi, they say both of the shooters were radicalized and they were radicalized for some time. whether that is months or years, we don't know. but both tashfeen malik and syed rizwan farook both radicalized. the question is where they were radicalized, by whom, and potentially it was radicalization through the internet and not necessarily by a person. i want to bring in our panel to go over all of this. henry, former assistant director and global affairs analyst. let's talk about what they found in the me. he has said they found 19 pipes that could have been made into
pipe bombs and he said they are also working with their foreign contacts to build a picture and a time line of these two. >> certainly it's it very concerning because you had heard the police refer to before as the garage of this residence as being a bomb factory. moving it from 12 to now 19 pipes certainly suggests this was indeed a factory. they had their eyes on trying to build as many of these as possible for what purpose the authorities at this point. not sharing with us. they may not know. the key here is the radicalization. that's really what authorities need to hone in on. that gives a clue as to what lies ahead for law enforcement for protecting the hoemeland in the future. people in touch with him as recently just weeks before all
of this, they never saw any signs. he never talked to anybody. they didn't see anything political coming from him. their suspicion is that he must have been doing this on loin. he was so private. he was so private with his wife that they may have fed off one another. that's the suspicion of people who are closest to him here, poppy. >> evan perez, this is your area of expertise. . when you hear one of the officials highest up in the fbi say it looks like they were both radicalized and not necessarily led by the female as some were expecting in this and also his point that there may not have been a person that radicalized them, this goes right to the heart of the current crisis in this battle against u.s. iist it that is online radicalization. >> this is exactly what the fbi is up against, which is diy radicalization. these are people who a at home can take the direction of isis. they don't really need to be in touch with anyone.
we don't know yet, and i think the fbi wants to answer the question based on communications and any e-mail. they want to see whether or not these people were actually in contact with someone in syria or some other part of the world who was trying to give them some direction of what to do. that has not been ruled out. as far as we know, this looks like the classic case of rad kalization that the fbi has been so concerned about. what we're hearing from officials involved in this investigation is that they believe that certainly in the case of the woman that she was already on her path. she was on the path to radicalization when she came to this country. that really raises some important questions for the homeland security department, the state department that gave her a screening before they gave her a fiance visa. this is when farook went over there to saudi arabia to pick her up and bring her to the united states as his wife.
that's the important question. the president says that there's going to be a review of that. it definitely appears to not have caught a year after she comes into this country she is helping to carry out the deadliest terror attack in this country since 9/11. one quick thing i want to make sure i mention. in that press conference, it was remarkable revelation also that the fbi assistant director there said that these both suspects, these people carried out some kind of dry run. they went to firing ranges in the days leading up to this massacre. so that, again. tells you a little bit about their preparation, what they were intending to do. this was not just something that was triggered on the day of this christmas party. it looks like this was something that was definitely in the works. >> and also goes to the question as to no red flags were raised,
now no one around them spoke up and they were going to these firing ranges in the vicinity up todays before the attack last week. shawn, to you. the fact that we heard the fbi assistant director that there was no open case and no open file, nothing on the male shooter ahead of this. >> that goes to the point of self-radicalization. the concern that law enforcement, the joint terrorism task forces have with this phenomenon that people are in their living room, online individually or potentially as husband and wife. they are not sharing, they are not out at a mosque or out interfacing with other people. this is something that is very difficult to identify. what i will say is that when the fbi said that they were ra radicalized, it sounds like it was emphatic and likely have found some information in the course of the serge whether it be through the media analysis or
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much more now from that very candid revealing fbi press conference that just wrapped up in san bernardino, california. with me now is kimberly dover, paul cruickshank and shawn henry is back with us. kimberly, to you. we heard from the fbi. they said at this point there's no evidence of a global interconnected plot tied to this. but they also said that they are speaking closely with all of
their foreign contacts. . that's the way he put it to build a puckture and time line of this couple. your intelligence sources telling you something krcritica this week for about how isis is not contained and this it all fits in. >> absolutely, the white house commissioned an intelligence report that concluded that isis is going to continue likely to grow for the next couple years in scope and influence. it's in about a dozen countries now and their analysis was that unless its territory is reduced in iraq and syria, it will be continue to be so popular that it will draw more followers like the couple in california. >> it's about physical containment in syria and iraq tied to inspiration abroad, even if that radicalization is completely online like was alluded to potentially by the fbi assistant director just now? >> it's about denting isis's prestige by taking away its
caliphate. it claims to have this islamic state inside iraq and syria. if it can be reduced in size to just syria, then perhaps followers will see it as not so worthy of following instead of al qaeda. but the time line for beating them back is, in some cases, some people are saying it could take a couple years to get them out of mosul and ramadi. this is going to be a tough fight. >> paul cruickshank, to you. i want to pull up this photo and talk about it. we now have this photo. our panel getting if from the sources at the chicago o'hare airport as recently as july of this it year. and the fbi saying that both. of them were radicalized and for some time. whether that's months or years. but a lot of people have been talking about whether tashfeen malik came over and radicalized
her husband. now it sounds like they were both radicalized. the question is where, by whom, was it on the internet? speak to this and whether we know they were potentiallied a call liezed at this point. >> well, we have known for some time that they were radicalized at a certain point. she was deeply fundamentistic in her approach to islam for many years stretching back to her time in saudi arabia, pakistan and sort of was approach that can make you receptive to what isis is saying. we also know he was radicalized from his father because his father was saying he was a supporter of the caliphate project deeply anti-israeli. i think they probably radical losed each other to a certain degree. the one thing that stood out on the reporting of her, and we don't have a great idea of her
yet, but the one thing that stood out is the fact she was very educated, very bright and for that reason perhaps she was the one wearing the trousers in the relationship. we have seen that before in these husband/wife dynamics. . i interviewed a belgium woman and i met her husband at the same time. he looked up to her because she had been in afghanistan with bin laden's wives before 9/11. he went all the way to pakistan to join al qaeda just to impress her. so you have seen these lady mcbeth dynamics where they are sort of strengthening the backbone of their husbands. >> shawn, to you. if this was a case of online radicalization, talk to me about the difficulties presented by the fact that as pamela brown reported that their digital footprint was concealed. they smashed hard drives, smashed phones, so now where do the intelligence officials go to
get what they need to determine the point of radicalzation? >> there are a number of point here's. first of all, i think those that have been radicalized, those listening to isis and their propaganda, they are familiar with trying to keep their footprint small. they are familiar with law enforcement tactics and capabilities. what the constitution allows and how they are protected ushd the constitution certainly as an american citizen often times by destroying the hard drives they may have destroyed all data but there are some opportunities for the fbi lab to go through and pull data off. there's opportunities through service providers to look at some of their browsing activity. but this is very difficult. the fbi and law enforcement are focusing on human activity, trying to do a lot of
interviews. you heard them talk about 400 interviews done thus far. there will be many. hundred more. this is going to be a long-term investigation and this will help to piece it together. >> he noted we're five days into this. we have a long way to go. thank you all for your expertise and insight. we're going to get back to this in a moment. i want to get to breaking news out of chicago. new video just released this afternoon. 911 calls we're hearing for the first time all related to the investigation into another deadly shooting by chicago police. prosecutors say it proves that the police acted reasonably. they are not bringing charges. the victim's mother speaking moments ago. she tells a very different story. >> i tell it to her face. we are in the age of ageless.
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another video has just been released showing chicago police using deadly force against a man running away from officers. i want to show you the police dash camera vud owe just release ed of that shooting. >> foot chase. >> came running around the corner in the direction of the officer. this is the officer drawing her weapon.
this is officer hernandez in the backse backseat. she's running behind. you see the flash of shots coming from hernandez. officer hernandez was closest to johnson. >> after releasing that video, cook county's prosecutor said she would not file charges against the officer who killed ronald johnson. this happened in october of last year. today is the first time the public is seeing the video. moments ago the family attorney responded with this. >> the evidence in this case, with the very careful analysis of the laws of the state of illinois, it is our determination that no criminal charges will be filed against officer her nnandez in connecti with the shooting death of ropd johnson. >> it is awe maizing to me that
anita alvarez, the states attorney of cook county relied on investigation from ipra and had the nerve to say that today and that she didn't tell the y mayor shfs releasing ts the video. she had the nerve today to say that she relied on the investigation when 12 to 14 hours ago the head of ipra resigned and/or was fired because of the shotty investigations that they did. that is a a joke. that is an absolute joke. >> cnn national correspondent ryan young in chicago following all of this. so we heard from them. we heard from the attorney general earlier today. recently we have finally heard from johnson's mother. she spoke out. what did she say? >> she still doesn't believe this case. in fact, with her and the torn, they have been talking about this for quite some time. they have watched the video over and over. they were able to see the video
before everyone else was able to see the vud owe. what was was in his hand, they didn't believe it was a gun. they called into question whether the, tended clip fits into the back of the gun. i talked to the attorney this afternoon and he believes this has been a massive cover up. they are not letting this goe. . they plan to push forward with this. you heard strong words today. the mother just talked a half hour ago. >> i'm very upset that she didn't conviction this officer who murdered my son. i'm not going to stop until i get what i want for him and that's justice. because if there'd have been anybody in her family that got kuld like that, there also would have been charged with murder. and the case would have been looked into way before a year. it's been 13 months for this
case to get heard for her to come. might as well say not guilty plea. she should have looked at it when it was first presented. for her to say my son had an object in her hand, she's a liar. he had nothing in his hand. and i hope one day she feels the pain that i feel. >> you absolutely understand her pain. you understand why she's pushing for it because of what she believes. this video helped this officer in this case not be charged. in fact, some of the initial reaction about the way the states attorney laid this out, they wanted to see for quite some time the transparency in the public that the 911 tapes walked through, but the video was blown up. this is part of what they wanted to see from the government. the case laid out so they could
make some decision on their own. we have seen some people still pop up protest iing, but on the signs, it says protesting for la-quan, not necessarily for this case. i think what helped in a lot of the cases today was the fact that the doj has stepped forward to say they are going to investigate this police department because that's what so many people want to see moving forward. >> a pattern and practice across the board. an investigation by the department of justice into the chicago police department. ryan young reporting for us, thank you for that. next, we turn to politics. you heard the president last night in the prime time address promising we will prevail talking about the war against isis. but a new poll shows that most americans do not think he's headed in the right direction. republicans are now pouncing on the speech laying out their own plans to defeat the terror group. we'll talk about it, next. when i lay in my tempur-pedic contour- the next thing i know it's morning. with tempur-flex you've got the spring and bounce of a traditional mattress and it also adjusts to my body. my cloud feels... it's like somebody's hugging you.
homeland security announcing a new terror threat alert system. how you will be notified. this just hours after president obama addressed the nation on the growing thereto from isis. even the attorney general pressing people to fight hom grown radicalism in their communities. the president also last night warned against creating an us against them mentality. >> we should not be drawn once more into a long and costly ground war in iraq orr syria. that's what groups like isil want. they know they can't defeat us
on the battlefield. isil fighters were part of the insurgency that we faced in iraq. . they also know if.insurgencies years. we cannot turn against one another by letting this fight be define d as a war between ameria and islam. it's our responsibility to reject proposals that muslim americans should be treated differently. because when we travel down that road, we lose. >> republicans remain skeptical. they say the white house is anti-isis strategy is not working. today presidential candidate ted cruz criticized the president. >> we don't need a president who goes on national television and lectures the american people and condescends to the american people and says the problem we have is islamophobia. the problem is we have is a
commander-in-chief who refuses to recognize our enemy. >> cnn's gloria borger is joining me from washington. we heard ted cruz, he was one of many. they all jumped on the president's speech last night. what about taking up a vote on the authorization of use of mull tear force? what about that? in a republican-led congress? >> it's always difficult, as you well know, to get congress on the record when it comes to the use of force because they know that those votes can always boomerang on them. just ask hillary clinton on that on her vote on iraq. the irony here is that republicans are saying, look, we don't want to vote on it because the president actually has the authority. we believe he can use force and they also say, you know what, he doesn't have a strategy so what is it we'd be voting on. on the other hand the democrats are the ones who are saying the
president doesn't have the authority so we ought to be able to vote on it. so it's kind of hard to figure out when you've got. this kind of a problem in the congress. whether a vote would occur or ever pass. why bring it up if you don't think it's going to pass. >> it's interesting a lot of the criticism of the president has been that he takes too much executive power because without them voting on it. we could debate that. but what about the new poll that shows 53% of americans favor sending ground troops in to fight isis in syria and iraq. those numbers come before the san bernardino attacks. you think perhaps would they be even higher? i wonder if you think this is going to force democratic candidates like hillary clinton, like bernie sanders to become more hawkish. >> i think it already has. you have seen hillary clinton really distance herself in a way from president obama calling for
a no-fly zone in syria. just yesterday saying we have to intensify our efforts against isis. you know, she's looking at those polls. and while this really breaks down along party lines because a huge majority of republicans want to use force, it's not that way among democrats. but you can see that the public is anxious. 60% of americans don't believe the president has done a good enough job fighting terror. she is of course aligned with the president as his former secretary of state. so it's quite difficult for her. and for bernie sanders it's even more difficult because what he wants to talk about is not foreign policy. he's got a campaign based on income inequality. and people aren't really talking about that right now, poppy. >> you're absolutely right. and i'm sure we'll hear a lot more about it. i know we will next week in the next gop debate hosted by our very own wolf blitzer next tuesday night.
gloria borger will be there. thank you very much. appreciate it. >> sure. coming up next, where are the arab countries, where are our allies in the middle east in this war against isis? why leaders who have the terror group in their backyard are not doing more. stay with us. ♪ hi, tom. how's the college visit? does it make the short list? yeah, i'm afraid so. it's okay. this is what we've been planning for. knowing our clients personally is why edward jones is the big company that doesn't act that way.
one year ago they declared it their war. key arab nations led by jordan joining the u.s.-led coalition in the fight against isis and going after the terrorists pounding them with air strikes. now in the wake of the paris massacre, attack in california, pressure certainly mounting on arab states to once again step up those air strikes. joining me now again cnn intelligence analyst former cia operative bob baer. "new york times" reports last month the saudi air force has
not flown a mission against isis targets since september. jordan reportedly hasn't flown one since august. can we win this fight without them? and why wouldn't we see more from them? >> well, poppy, you know that's the $64,000 question. and i actually have an answer for it. the arabs are not fighting. they look at the islamic state as something of a convenience for them. it's fighting the iranian backed regime in damascus. a lot of their radicalized citizens if you like are going and fighting with the islamic state, dying, that serves their interests. it's very machiavellian. they want to defeat what they describe as an iranian-backed insurgency in yemen, the houthis. i think they're going to pay for it at the end of the day, but right now you're absolutely right. we need the arabs on our side. we need to go into eastern syria
and northern iraq and find a replacement government for the islamic state. but they are just not helping. >> so you hear from really military experts across the board, bob, who say you need the local forces to defeat isis. particularly sunnis. and you have republican presidential candidate calling for this effort, he said the similar thing to jake tapper yesterday on "state of the union". >> there must be a ground force put together to confront them. and it must be a ground force made up of primarily sunni arabs from the region but also a contribution of troops from jordan, saudi arabia, egypt, the uae has already expressed some willingness to provide ground troops to such an effort. this is a radical sunni group. they need defeated by sunnis themselves on the ground. >> but here's the reality check. here's the conundrum, bob, right, the sunnis don't want to take on this fight, do they? >> no. they're more worried about iran. and i agree with rubio.
it's very rare i do, but he's absolutely totally right on this. we need the arabs to fight this battle for us. we need sunnis. we need to find an assault #alternative to the islamic state -- >> how do you convince them, bob? if you're sitting around the president as his national security team, how do you convince them we need them to fight this fight? >> we have to convince them that iran is not an existential threat to them. we have to really sit down and we have to sit down with the russians. and frankly we have to re-divide the borders in the middle east so the sunnis have their own state divided between iraq and syria. i just don't see another way. but if we don't deal with the symptoms of terrorism, which is the shia/sunni divide in the sphere of iran and the fear of their collapse, we are going to have more terrorism here. >> scary thought. bob baer, thank you very much as always. appreciate it.
well, in the wake of the california massacre the obama administration is getting ready to roll out another tool to combat terrorism. today homeland security secretary jeh johnson announced a brand new system that is on the way. this is a system that will alert you to the level of terror threat possibly rolled out in the next few days. obviously it's going to change the system that came into place after 9/11. that's the current two-tier national terror advisory system which has been such a high bar that it has never been activated. >> we need a system that adequately informs the public at large, not through news leaks of joint intelligence bulletins to law enforcement, not through leaks from anonymous government officials, but we need a system that informs the public at large what we are seeing even if what we are seeing could be self-evident to the public. but what we are seeing, what we are doing about it and what we are asking the public to do. >> secretary johnson also saying
today under this new system that they're rolling out the country could potentially put on heightened alert if there's concern over a copycat attack. i'm poppy harlow. that does it for me today. thank you so much for joining me. "the lead" begins right now. thanks, poppy. even in iowa he's huge. "the lead" starts right now. breaking news, first on "the lead" a brand new poll showing the iowa horse race with donald trump towering over all like never before. radicalized for some time, new details from police about the husband and wife terrorists in san bernardino as a new picture surfaces of them coming to america and the investigation into the wife reaches all the way to pakistan. plus, you can see the gunshots. another chicago police shooting, another 400-plus-day wait to see the graphic video. does it show a justifiable killing