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tv   Situation Room With Wolf Blitzer  CNN  May 2, 2016 2:00pm-4:01pm PDT

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between what rock stars say and what politicians want you to hear. >> great essay, rich cohen. thank you so much. the sun, the moon and "rolling stone"s comes out may 10th. >> thanks, jake. and that is it for "the lead." turning you over to wolf blitzer in "the situation room." thanks for watching. happening now, breaking news, pulling ahead. our new national poll shows republicans are badly divided but united when it comes to expecting donald trump to lead the gop ticket in november. on this, the eve of a critical primary in indiana, can trump seal the deal? viable path. ted cruz goes toe to toe with an angry trump supporter. not giving up. bernie sanders says he has a tough path ahead but insists it's not impossible for him to win the democratic nomination. and family feud.
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prince's relatives gather for a court hearing to determine the fate of his estate and his vault of unreleased music as new questions surface about the pop star's health in the last weeks of his life. i'm wolf blitzer. you're in "the situation room." this is cnn breaking news. >> breaking news. we're counting down to the indiana primary. critical for both republicans and democrats, even as our new polls show voters on both sides think they know who is on the ballot in november. donald trump says the gop race is all over if he takes indiana. 57 republican delegates are up for grabs there. a quarter of what he still needs to secure a first ballot convention win. ted cruz says the race is closer than it looks. he's been going all out treating indiana like a do or die must-win state. cruz says he's in the race to the end as long as there was a
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viable path to victory. on the democratic side, bernie sanders says he, too, is in the race all the way suggesting there will be a contested convention but hillary clinton may already be looking ahead. she's moved on to kentucky and west virginia today and our new cnn/orc poll shows voters are looking ahead as well. the vast majority expect clinton and donald trump to be their party's nominees. our correspondents, analysts and guests will have full coverage of all of the day's top stories. let's begin with our senior white house correspondent jim acosta in south bend, indiana. can donald trump close this deal? >> reporter: that is the question, wolf. they are saying that a big win here in indiana means that the gop race is over. a victory for trump would certainly ramp up the pressure on ted cruz to drop out but our new cnn/orc poll shows that if trump gets his way, he will lead a republican party that is
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deeply divided. >> are you going to eat all that? >> reporter: one day before the indiana primary, donald trump can taste victory. >> indiana is very important because if i win, that's the end of it. >> reporter: on the eve of the momentum in the latest polls, the gop front-runner is heavily favored to win indiana and an outcome that could deliver a knockout punch to ted cruz. the texas senator vowed to hang on. >> i am in for the distance as long as we have a viable path to victory, i am competing to the end. >> reporter: but even as he campaigns with indiana's govern, cruz is struggling to change minds, even sparring with the trump supporter. >> sir, america is a better country. >> without you. >> thank you for those kind sentiments. >> reporter: telling the crowd with the clashes at trump rallies. >> if i were donald trump, i wouldn't have come over and talked to you. i wouldn't have shown you that respect. in fact, you know what i would
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have done, i would have said go over there and punch those guys in the face. that's what donald does to protesters. >> reporter: but the latest poll finds trump remains the overwhelming gop favorite across the country and shows republicans would be much more dissatisfied with cruz as their nominee. still, our poll notes the gop is bitterly divided with nearly half saying the party will not unite. >> she's playing the woman card and we're making a list of many, many times where it's all about her being a woman. >> reporter: trump insisted his party will rally behind him to defeat hillary clinton and defended his latest inflammatory talk. >> because we can't continue to allow china to rape our country and that's what they are doing. >> reporter: on trade with china. >> frankly, as far as china is concerned, everyone knows that true and it gets the point across. >> reporter: and the real estate tycoon --
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>> and they wear masks and the police told me these are thugs. >> reporter: in indiana, trump is counting on having the crowds on his side as he appears with legendary hoosier basketball coach bobby knight, just one of several controversial sports figures to endorse his campaign. from dennis rodman to mike tyson. noting the boxer was once convicted of rape. >> i think rapists are cowards and bullies and weaklings. >> now, donald trump is sounding as if indiana's governor mike pence is endorsing him and not the candidate that he's actually backing, ted cruz. either way, trump is poised to drive cruz out of any reasonable chance of winning the nomination for the republican party and force the never trump movement inside the gop to start working on plan c or d or whatever it is at this point, wolf.
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>> jim acosta, thank you. let's go to our political reporter, sara murray. donald trump has been speaking. how confident is the trump campaign, sara, heading into tomorrow's primary? >> reporter: well, if donald trump has been very confident at this campaign, he once again reiterating that if he wins indiana, it's over. he took it a step further and said maybe the week after that, a sentiment running through the trump campaign, this idea that no matter what happens in indiana, even though they feel confident here, they are going to get to 1237 before they get to cleveland. that's what trump believes and clearly what his advisers believe as well, wolf. >> is there a sense out there, sara, that that short-lived controversial cruz/kasich alliance may have backfired and wound up helping donald trump? >> reporter: well, they haven't done a great job messaging it, have they?
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saying his supporter should vote for him anyway in indiana, now we are seeing polling that says 58% of indiana republican primary voters don't approve of this. and we are hearing a little bit of sentiment from the kasich camp there is some buyers reforr remorse and they think it puts them head to head against donald trump and gives them the best shot that they can in taking him down. as you heard jim acosta saying, it's going to be an uphill climb. wolf. >> sara murray, thanks very much. joining us now, republican congressman adam kinzinger of illinois. thank you for joining us. >> good to be with you. >> if donald trump wins tomorrow in indiana, is he the presumptive nominee? >> yeah. it's really hard to see how he's not. i guess cruz could maybe run just about every other race or win of the coming states and maybe be the nominee but this is definitely a big deal for trump
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if he wins tomorrow because this was considered a cruz strong territory. there's no doubt a victory for him will do a lot to seal him as the nominee. if he loses, this continues down the road and from what i've heard there's pollings all over the place. we have some of the public polling but i've heard there's private polling showing that it's a lot closer. these are all turnout games and it will be fun to watch tomorrow. >> you saw that "wall street journal" nbc marist poll which shows trump in indiana way ahead. he does have a lot more votes and in all of the 40 contests, primaries, 3.4 million votes compared to cruz. he's got more than 10 million and cruz has 6.8 million. if it's a contested convention, a lot of people, a lot of republicans are going to be pretty angry since trump clearly has more votes. >> yeah. and you know, if they are angry, they probably have a right to be. the reality, though, is this is
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how it's done, how it's been done for many, many years. if we go to a contested convention, donald trump will have to work hard to win over the delegates, to work on a second and third ballot strategy. they knew that this was how this works from the very beginning. now that they are caught flat footed, people will be upset, they probably have every right to be. this is how it's done. it's probably a conversation that is welcomed. >> you'll have four years to come up with new ideas if you want to do that. let's talk about -- let's say he loses tomorrow, cruz, in indiana. he says he's in it for the distance. if there's a viable path for him. kasich says he's still in it as well even though he's got an even more difficult path than cruz does. for all practical purposes, if he loses tomorrow, will you be on board with donald trump? >> no, not there. look, i probably will definitely
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not support him until at least the convention. i'm definitely somebody who puts my party above my country and what i heard him say on foreign policy, what i heard him say, he's going to eliminate the debt but not touch social security, as not having real conversations with the american people, frankly, my party has said, here's the harsh realities of what we're facing. this is not reflecting people's anger but holding up their securities and it's showing people a way out. so i'm not there with trump yet. look, if he changes a tone and has good solutions, i could get there. but as of today, i'm not. >> ted cruz wouldn't say if he's the republican nominee. i guess what happens to the party, let's say trump is the nominee, how divided will the republicans be, looking ahead to hillary clinton's general election campaign. >> well, the great unifier is
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hillary clinton for republicans and that will definitely work in unity's favor. the question really is going to be for donald trump to answer. is he going to change his tone from one of division, one of complaining, whining when things don't go his way and what it is that the party believes in. with detailed explanations, not just kind of populist rhetoric. he can unite this party but it's going to take a major change and shift from how he's been so far. look, i don't put it past him to be able to do that. i hope he can. but i kept thinking he was going to pivot to much more mature conversation months ago when he hasn't yet. >> whatever your republican colleagues in the house, representative david jolly of florida said he doesn't know if he'd vote for trump or hillary clinton in november. under no circumstances, i take it, would you vote for hillary clinton against donald trump? >> no. i'm not going to vote for hillary clinton and, like i said, i hope i can get to yes on
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trump but if i don't, i would intend to -- you can always write somebody in or leave it blank and vote down ballot. my right as a private american to make that decision. but i wouldn't support hillary clinton. it would be another four years of the last eight years. >> any chance you think paul ryan will come around? >> i don't think so. no. he's made it pretty clear. i'd love to see a paul ryan as president but i think that's probably not in the cards for 2016. >> yeah, you might have to wait four years or eight years. he's a young guy. plenty of time to work with him on that. stand by, congressman. much more to discuss. we'll take a quick break. we'll be right back. [phone rings] [man] hello,totten designs. sales department? yes...i can put you right through. ♪ sales department-this is nate. human resources. technical support. hold, please.
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as we count down to the indiana primary, we're back with adam kinzinger who served in both iraq and afghanistan. congressman, lindsey graham is predicting another 9/11 if donald trump is elected president. do you think the u.s. will be vulnerable to more attacks like 9/11 if easy elected president? >> i don't know. that's tough to answer. i think saying things like banning all muslims is dangerous. it may work for politics domestically but it's dangerous. you look for yemen. the saudis dealt a huge blow to al qaeda in the arabian peninsula, which is a very bad strain of al qaeda. you have the jordanians and other allied regimes engaged against isis. to make a blanket statement like that begins to alienate the allies that we need to win these wars. i'm not going to go as far as to say another 9/11 because of
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donald trump but i will say rhetoric has meaning and it has an impact and i heard that when i got back from the middle east a few weeks ago. i've heard that from everybody we've met with. >> isis is claiming responsibility for a baghdad car bombing killing at least 16 people, injuring 43 others. this is more than a decade right after the u.s. spent literally more than a trillion dollars, hundreds of billions of dollars to try to develop a stable regime there, a stable country in iraq, a secure military. for all practical purposes right now, has iraq essentially become syria? >> no. look, i think they are in the process of still developing self-governance. we had iraq in a pretty good place in 2011 and, in fact, president obama himself said when the last troops left that we're leaving behind a stable iraq. we were there. we were able to help the different sectarian interests have a dialogue and feel like they are empowered. unfortunately, when we left a lot of that under al maliki
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started to fall apart and there's going to be a lot of rebuilding to do. but this isn't syria. we don't have a brutal dictator who's killed half a million people. you have isis but you have a national army that as effective as they have been in the past, is refocused on taking territory. you have a nationalist army focused on killing innocent civilians. if we're not careful, it could be another syria and, frankly, you have the same concerns in libya as we're seeing in egypt eventually. >> it looks like a disaster though in iraq. baghdad is the largest city. the green zone was invaded over the weekend. that's where the u.s. embassy and foreign embassies are there. the protesters got out and moved into the green zone. the second largest city in iraq, mosul, the city of 2 million people, now for two years has been controlled by the iraqi
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military has done nothing so far to retake the second largest city in -- why do you think it's not as bad as syria? >> well, they are preparing, i wish it was a year ago, to eventually take back mosul. it's 2 million people. that's a huge operation. the protests in baghdad were not necessarily isis-inspired. these were from al sadar and thyou have a lot of entrenched interests there that like the old system of doing business, the kickbacks and contracts and everything else. and then, look, a car bomb, as tragic as it is in baghdad, this is what isis wants. they want to say that the whole thing is falling apart. baghdad is not as bad as it was in the past but this is far from syria. syria is the incubator of isis.
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bashar al assad has created areas of nongovernance and iraq gives us an opportunity as tough and as bad as it is to push it out and deal a huge defeat. >> here's the issue in syria. you've been to the region. you served in the u.s. military, both iraq and you served in afghanistan as well. in syria right now, at least 300,000, maybe 400,000 people have been killed over the last four years. millions of people have been made into refugees, homeless domestically they've been displayed across borders. but the fear right now with the collapse of what is supposedly was a cease-fire, the bad situation, a horrendous situation in syria right now potentially could get a whole lot worse. do you believe that? >> yeah, absolutely. i think this could get worse. this could spread to other areas, you know, frankly, jordan, not lebanon, libya. it already has spread, i would argue. that's why you're seeing the instability in the middle east. the other big issue is this.
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you have a whole generation of children not going to school. i was in turkey at a refugee camp and the turks are doing a really good job of trying to do what they can to represent these children. when they don't learn how to read and write and learn about the bigger world outside of themselves, they are fertile ground for isis to come along and recruit from. education is very important. families are being torn apart and leads to a lot of resentment. this is a generational fight. this is going to be going on for a long time. hopefully not in syria but this fight in general. we have to think long term. kids that are going to school and learning how to read and write. >> it worries me a lot. i'm sure it worries you, too. syria controls some cities, m - mid-size cities like raqqa and in mosul, 2 million people and the iraqi military has done
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nothing to reliberate that city. it's a frightening sight. a brand-new poll shows republican voters expect donald trump to be their party's nominee on this the eve of a crucial primary, can he close the deal? and new questions about prince's health in the last weeks of his life. the pop star's relatives gather for a court hearing to discuss his estate and vault of unreleased music. stay with us. you're in "the situation room." see me. see me. don't stare at me. see me. see me. see me to know that psoriasis is just something that i have. i'm not contagious. see me to know that... ...i won't stop until i find what works.
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as we count down to the indiana primary, let's bring in our experts. joining us, our cnn political director david chalian and cnn political commentator ana navarro. thank you for joining us. look at the new poll just released coming out right now. trump's national support clearly growing. cruz losing support nationally. cnn asked republican voters if the party can be united. here's what they say going forward in november. right now, 7% said they are united, divided but will unite going forward after the contest is -- the republican nomination is determined. divided, will not unite almost 50%, 49%. what does that say to you? >> that's a pretty big to-do
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list, 49% of republicans believe they will not be united in november. that is a problem. now, we've all seen tough nomination fights and partisans intend to come home. we usually don't see division quite this large. >> hillary clinton was defeated by then senator barack obama. ana, how critical is indiana for ted cruz? >> it's hugely critical. the expectation that he built in a way was that he was going to win indiana, that indiana was his firewall. if it turns out not to be his firewall, it's going to be a tough problem for him. i think he's been very hurt by there being no debates.
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he's lost that platform where 25 million people can watch him at one time. he's had to create media events and the endorsement from govern pens wasn't exactly made for tv. the bump he wanted to get from carly fiorina was more of a thump than a bump. if he wins, it's going to be a huge victory. we know he's on the ropes. if he loses, we'll have a real problem. >> he's still in it for the distance. if there's a viable path. is there a viable path for him? >> that's a great question. i think after that they are going to have to look at the numbers and if indeed the polling suggests donald trump will win in indiana and potentially by a lot, even
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sweeps the delegates there, which is one potential outcome at this oint, i think ted cruz is going to have a tough case to make that he can do better in california and washington is going to be a very tough state more these guys as well. it wouldn't be enough to stop him from eachireaching 1237. ted cruz is not going to stick in this race. >> define viable. he may feel that since trump is not going to cross that magic number and that threshold of the delegates needed to secure the nomination does cruz steak around just in case? >> i say let's say it goes to a contested convention, trump doesn't have the 1237 on the
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first round, cruz, maybe kasich, they are still in it. here's the question can trump win on a second round? >> 95% of the delegates are bound by the primary caucus results on that first ballot. but then something like 40% of the delegates are bound on the second ballot. so he clearly will lose some support if you just have been tracking what our team at cnn politics has been doing nonstop and it becomes a much tougher road. >> there's a question of what happens if donald trump is very close to 1237. what if he's at 1210? could the delegates at the c convention have a case to make? >> donald trump told cnn that they will back them because of
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their views on trade and unbelievably badly. do you think it's realistic that trump can attract the bernie sanders supporters? >> that statement sounds absolutely crazy on its face. if you start digging in a little bit, digging through what he's saying, there is some logic to what he is saying. looking at people who will tell you that their second choice was donald trump, not hillary clinton. they are looking for an outsider, for disrupter, someone that they see as an anti establishment. he's going to have to work hard to court him and do not overestimate hillary clinton.
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coming up, a cnn exclusive. president obama revealing new details about what it was like watching the high-stakes raid on osama bin laden's compound. increasingly bitter family feud over prince's estate. ♪ to thrive under pressure... ♪ to reject the status quo... and they have no problem passing the competition. the aggressive lexus gs 350 and 200 turbo. once driven, there's no going back. ♪
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this is humira helping me go further. humira works for many adults. it targets and helps to block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to ra symptoms. doctors have been prescribing humira for over 13 years. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened, as have blood, liver and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. ready for a new chapter? talk to your rheumatologist. this is humira at work. senator bernie sanders is making a bold prediction.
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he says the democrats are headed for a contested convention. whatever happens, the cnn nationwide poll shows most feel that hillary clinton will end up with the nomination. suzanne malveaux is joining us now. sanders isn't showing any signs of giving up, is he? >> absolutely not. the belief is inside the sanders team is that everybody should get their opportunity to vote as the primaries continue. he has the money and momentum to go to july and that's exactly what they are planning on doing. >> reporter: barnstorming indiana tonight, he's taking a page from donald trump's playbook, blasting the primary process. >> when we talk about a rigged system, it's also important to understand how the democratic convention works. >> sanders sharply criticizing the influence of superdelegates. >> it's the way the system works, you have establishment candidates who win virtually all of the superdelegates. it makes it hard for insurgent
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candidacies like ours to win. >> reporter: sanders faces a decline in delegates and looking to gain momentum in the hoosier state on tuesday. >> we're going to fight for every last vote. >> reporter: there is a tight race with clinton holding a four-point lead in a new "wall street journal"/nbc marist survey. >> i'm trying to tell you what i'm going to do so you can hold me accountable. >> reporter: campaigning today in kentucky which holds its primary later this month, talking up her plan to revitalize coal country. >> appalaicha coal has taken a huge hit and, you know, it's something that i am really worried about. >> reporter: clinton's remarks coming on the heels of these remarks during a cnn town hall in march. >> i'm the only candidate which has a policy about how to bring economic opportunity using clean, renewable energy as a key
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into coal country because we're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business. >> reporter: today, clinton said she'll put her husband in charge of the effort to bring back appalaichan communities. >> i told my husband he has to come out of retirement and handle this. >> reporter: with clinton closing in on the democratic nomination, she's looking more and more towards the general election and republican front-runner donald trump. >> we cannot let barack obama's legacy fall into donald trump's hands. >> reporter: another sign the democratic primary has shifted, clinton outraised sanders if just berry for the month of april. her campaign has bested sanders in any month. president obama used sanders' favorite fundraising talking point. >> our average contribution is $27. >> reporter: to inject some lefty in the -- levity at the
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white house correspondents' dinner. >> bernie, you look like a million bucks. >> hillary trying to appeal to young voters is like your relative who just signed up for facebook. dear america, did you get my poke? is it appearing on your wall? >> reporter: focused on how to win swing states in the general election, we're talking about north carolina, florida, ohio, new mexico and many others. they are looking at the policies that have impacted the key demographics in those states to figure out how to shore up their support. wolf? >> a good point, suzanne. thank you. new details emerging about prince's health problems in the fight for his estate. also, a cnn exclusive. president obama in the white
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now a cnn exclusive, president obama revealing new details about what it was like to watch the u.s. special forces raid what killed osama bin laden. national security analyst peter bergen met at the white house situation room. >> we came in here at the point when the helicopters were about to actually land. it's here where we observed, for example, that one of the helicopters got damaged in the landing.
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>> and what were you thinking? >> i was thinking that this is not an ideal start. look, we were all worried. the good news is, it didn't crash. our guys were able to extract themselves. the bad news was that the helicopter itself had been damaged and this is an example, though, of the kind of meticulous planning that had been done. even though we had the best helicopter operators imaginable, despite the fact that they had practiced these landings repeatedly in a mock-up, we couldn't account for the fact that helicopters start reacting differently in an enclosed compound where he may be rising. >> this is featured in the special report that airs later tonight. peter is joining us now in our situation room. he's also the author of the new and very important book, "the united states of jihad."
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there you can see the cover right there. peter, you wrote the book on the manhunt for bin laden but now five years later you sat down with president obama and several of his key advisers. you learned new information. share some of that with us. >> well, he was leaning towards the raid relatively early on and he sort of held back on making a decision because, you know, he didn't have to make the decision immediately. so that -- i found that interesting. we also spoke at considerable length with the architect of the raid who, you know, both you spoke to in aspen when he was still in uniform shortly after the raid and now obviously he's and, you know, he really narrated for us the planning of the raid from his perspective and the execution of the raid from his perspective, which i think is -- i think viewers will find that an interesting part of
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the story. >> bin laden was living for years in abbottabad outside the pakistani equivalent of a major military facility. did the pakistani officials know he was living in their country? >> we asked that question to president obama who said there's no evidence for that. we also asked cia director john brennan and director of national intelligence, jim clapper. they also said there's no evidence for that. interestingly, former secretary of state hillary clinton, who was secretary of state as you recall during this operation, she says that she thinks the pakistanis knew. she didn't offer evidence for that, but does point to not only what you said, wolf, that he was living near a pakistani military academy, also that this town, this city is a place where a lot of pakistanis go if you retire. somebody in the military perhaps
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retired knew something. >> i think there's a lot more coming up later tonight, peter. thank you so much for doing this. and to our viewers, you'll see more of peter bergen's interview with president obama, 8:00 p.m. eastern for an exclusive report "we got him." it airs on ac 360 starting at 8:00 p.m. eastern. we have new details about prince's health problems before his unexpected death. this comes as we follow an increasingly intense dispute over his estate. brian todd has the latest. he learned about heated exchanges between family members. >> right, wolf. we are told that the siblings, prince's siblings were shouting during the initial meeting how to divide the estate. he has five half siblings, one full sibling fighting. there's about $300 million at stake, including hundreds of
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unreleased songs in a mysterious fault. prince's only full sibling arrived in court for hearings over the pop star's $300 million estate. proceedings which have already gotten very messy. a source with firsthand knowledge of the discussions telling cnn the initial meeting between prince's siblings was contentious and ended in shouting. today, tyga nelson was on one side of the courtroom, lawyers for half siblings on the other, making this potentially more contentious, his sister claims prince did not have a will. she's maneuvering with five half siblings over how to divide the estate. one of them claims the singer had a vault at paisley park. >> we have seen the vault door, but we never entered. >> there are conflicting reports as to whether that vault has been opened. a lawyer for prince's half brother denies it. it is rumored to have enough of
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prince's unreleased music to put out one album a year for the rest of the century. prince's half brother says he wants to release it. >> to know how great he really is. >> it is up to a special administrator. four years ago, prince made what now seems an eary remark about unreleased songs on "the view." >> one day someone will release them, i don't know that i'll get to release them. >> his personal chef says during the last weeks of his life, the star lost his appetite, ate less, drank less water. ray roberts told associated press it felt like he wasn't himself the last month or two. he was struggling with being sick a lot. robert says that was unlike the healthy vegan he knew who loved roasted beats and minimum streen ee soup. it plays out in the backdrop of a seemingly ugly family dispute. >> sudden windfall can make
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people do what they might not otherwise do. grieving has an effect on it. people are surprised particularly when someone famous dies young. might not have had a chance to say what they wanted to say. they may be forced to sit in a room with people they don't like. >> prince's half brother, alfred jackson, says he and prince lost touch. jackson told cnn he found out same way the public found out. jackson says he was hurt when he wasn't invited to the private memorial to say good-bye to his younger brother. wolf? >> brian, you have been speaking to attorneys. how difficult will it be to determine who gets what in that estate? >> very difficult. we are not just talking money. you can divide the money up with six siblings, that will be done with that. with no will at play, it is especially difficult to decide who gets his guitars, rights to purple rain. the family will be slammed with estate taxes. one attorney said the irs will get 40% of everything over $5.45
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million, including the value of the music in that vault. they're going to get a lot here, but they're going to have to pay a lot in estate taxes. >> millions and millions of dollars. thanks for that, brian. the new national poll shows republicans are badly divided, but united when it comes to expecting donald trump to be the nominee. with a critical primary looming, can donald trump now close the deal?
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happening now. breaking news. trump towers, a new cnn poll just released showing a vast
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majority believe donald trump will be the republican nominee for president, but is it boosting support inside the gop? critical contest. tomorrow's indiana primary possibly the last chance for ted cruz to block trump getting the nomination outright. increasingly anxious about the process with contested convention, is there a viable path to the convention that cruz says he needs to stay in the race? railing at the rules. bernie sanders voicing frustration at the democratic delegate system saying it is rigged against insurgent campaigns like his. hillary clinton is moving closer to clinching the nomination outright. w . and unprecedented white house access to talk about the mission that killed osama bin laden exactly five years ago. i'll talk to the man in charge of the intelligence behind it,
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the former cia director leon panetta. what are the terror threats that will confront the next u.s. president? we want to welcome viewers in the united states and around the world. i am wolf blitzer. you're in "the situation room." breaking news political news on the eve of the indiana primary. a just released cnn poll conducted by cnn and orc i should point out shows a vast majority of american voters believe the stage is already set for the general election. more than 80%, 80% say they expect donald trump and hillary clinton to face off in november as their respective party's presidential candidates. we are standing by to hear from trump. he has an event about to begin in indiana, his final rally before tomorrow's primary. arguably, the most high stakes contest for trump, rival ted cruz is throwing in everything
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he has in indiana. it is his last best chance to try to block trump from getting delegates he needs to win the nomination outright and force a contested convention where cruz hopes he would be the nominee. on the other side, bernie sanders is saying the democrats are facing a contested convention. he is predicting hillary clinton will not win enough pledge delegates to clinch the nomination and will need superdelegates to take her over the top, a system he is calling rigged. we are covering that and more this hour with our guests, including congressman chris collins. he was the first republican representative to endorse donald trump. then our correspondents and expert analysts are standing by. let's begin with the republican race. cnn political reporter sarah murray is in indiana at the scene of a trump rally that just wrapped up a little while ago. sarah, trump is sounding increasingly confident about tomorrow's primary. what's the latest? >> reporter: wolf, donald trump sounded very optimistic about
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his odds in indiana as he wrapped up his remarks awhile ago. he said if i don't finish this off in indiana, i will finish it off in the next couple weeks. meanwhile, ted cruz is not giving up so easily. he is bringing every surrogate he can think of to his side as he campaigns across indiana and tries to eek out a much needed win. donald trump is aiming to deal a death blow to ted cruz's presidential hopes right here in indiana. >> if we win indiana, it's over. it's over. they're finished. >> reporter: trump holds a 24 point advantage over cruz in the latest cnn, orc poll of republicans nationwide. well positioned to pull off a victory in tuesday's primary. he draws 49% support from republican voters in indiana. a 15 point lead over cruz. according to a new "the wall street journal," nbc marist poll. cruz insists the race is much tighter.
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>> we are neck and neck in the state of indiana, so for anyone here, hoosiers, this is an opportunity for the entire country is looking to indiana. >> reporter: they're blanketing the state holding ten events. at one point engaging in a debate with a trump supporter. >> trump, the only one going to put us where we need to be. what are you going to do about the second amendment? >> this man is lying to you and taking advantage of you. if i were donald trump, i wouldn't come to talk to you, i would tell the folks go over and punch those guys in the face. that's what donald does to protesters. >> reporter: the texas senator vows to stay in the race until cleveland. >> i am in for the distance as long as we have a viable path to victory, i am competing to the end. >> reporter: meanwhile, trump is still condemning the gop primary process. >> i have been saying it is a rigged system. the bosses want to pick whoever they want to pick. what's the purpose of going through the primary?
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>> reporter: continued campaigning in colorful language as he criticized trade deals with china. >> we can't continue to allow china to rape our country, and that's what they're doing. >> reporter: it is clear the gop frontrunner is ready to make the shift to the general, taking aim at hillary clinton on the campaign trail today. >> she's a disaster. e-mails. bad judgment. iraq, voted yes, bad judgment. libya, bad judgment. all bad judgment. >> reporter: despite trump's lead in the latest polls, he and his campaign are trying to prove they're sprint together finish in indiana. he had two events. >> let's get more from the cruz campaign. sunlen serfaty is in indianapolis. how are they feeling about tomorrow's primary? >> reporter: wolf, there's certainly apprehension coming from the cruz campaign. senator cruz will have his last big rally in a couple hours here in indianapolis tonight and
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heading into the big day where they have really set the stakes very high for him, and i do think that the day he had on the campaign trail today, what he faced out there really speaks volumes as to where the cruz campaign is headed, what they're facing going into tomorrow. multiple times through the day it was notable he was peppered with questions not only from reporters but voters, his standing in the polls and his path forward. cruz spending a lot of time and energy explaining, validating his campaign so to speak and going forward. one voter spoke with him directly at a diner stop and said donald trump is beating you in the polls, clearly some concern coming straight from voters. at a later stop, senator cruz was leaving a stop and crossed the street, went out of his way to approach donald trump protesters and really gotten gauged in a tense back and forth, almost explaining
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himself. all of this to say i think the tone around the cruz campaign and the candidate, the narrative is shifting as they head into tomorrow so pivotal to their campaign, wolf. >> sunlen serfaty in indianapolis for us. let's get more on all of this. chris collins, the first republican member of the house of representatives to publicly support donald trump. representative, thanks very much for joining us. if trump -- >> good to be here. >> say he doesn't win tomorrow, will winning outright on the first ballot needing 1237 delegates be more difficult for him to achieve that goal? >> well, wolf, he is going to do very well tomorrow night, but no, in fact, if that didn't happen, if you do the math, we have 85 delegates between new jersey and west virginia, those are in his column for sure. that brings him just shy of 1100. you have 172 in california, again, leading by double digits there. he has it locked up.
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right now, what you're seeing with ted cruz, desperation tonight, tomorrow he becomes totally irrelevant. and let's hope after tomorrow he withdraws, he does the right thing so we can spend the next six, seven weeks before the convention uniting the party to defeat hillary clinton. >> i assume you want cruz and john kasich for that matter on wednesday, let's say, to announce they're quote suspending their campaigns? >> if they do the right thing, they will suspend their campaigns because donald trump will have it totally locked up without a doubt, and again it is time for us to unite. we are already doing that in d.c. you're seeing a lot of folks unite in d.c. we're all talking now about defeating hillary clinton. she's the uniter of our party. you've seen the pivot by donald's campaign, the great foreign policy speech at the mayflower couple days ago, hearing the positive comments. our party is going to come together. the supreme court is at risk if
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hillary clinton is elected. wolf, you're going to see the shift not only from donald's campaign, you're going to see outreach coming the other way as well from the supposed establishment. >> show the viewers live pictures we're getting in of protesters in south bend, indiana, they're not very happy with donald trump right now. it has become increasingly common feature at a lot of events, congressman, as you know. protesters show up, hopefully it is fairly peaceful and relatively quiet. sometimes it gets out of control. that's a source of concern to a lot of people, including you, right? >> oh, yeah. no one wants to see the protesters, many of them are professional protesters, paid protesters. putting that aside, it shows desperation on the other side. i don't believe they're cruz protesters as much as the defenders of the liberal progressive left, which is bernie sanders and hillary clinton. they see hillary is not electable, it will be donald trump and hillary clinton, and i
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think most of us know that her character negatives are such that donald trump's going to win and they're very frustrated by that thought. >> speaking of the liberal progressive left, congressman, very interesting. donald trump told cnn today he actually thinks some bernie sanders supporters will back him because of his views on trade, because he claims hillary clinton has treated bernie sanders followers in his words unbelievably badly. do you think that's at all realistic that donald trump can attract some of the blue collar very progressive liberal democrats who support bernie sanders? >> i think there's two camps here, wolf. one are young folks frustrated by the establishment. they've seen the establishment load them with $20 trillion of debt. they don't have jobs. big percentage of those may go to donald trump. on the other side, you have the working class, reagan democrats, blue collar democrats from western new york that lost their jobs with nafta, their
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frustration, the moms, they want a better future for america. when donald trump says we're going to take america back, america first, and get those jobs back from china and mexico, that's his message on the jobs front, which not only will get the working class democrats on his side but also the soccer moms who are looking out for the future of their children. >> what does that say about donald trump, congressman, if he can attract the most liberal progressive wing of the democratic party to support him? >> well, i think it says that hold onto your seat belt when you look at what could happen in november. donald trump is putting michigan in play, wisconsin in play. he is putting new york in play. that's probably the lesser of the few. when he starts to look at a district like i represent, my county, two to one democrat, he will win that county with 65% of the vote. i think you're going to see effectively a landslide come november. i know people may doubt that,
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the energy and momentum behind donald trump, he is attracting folks you wouldn't expect. at the same time there's no republican that's going to vote for hillary clinton. the supreme court is at risk here, so the republicans, even those that may not like donald trump are going to vote for donald trump and then he is reaching out to a lot of disenfranchised democrats and many of the young who don't like the system. i think we could be onto something come november. >> let me just be precise. you're predicting if trump is the republican nominee and hillary clinton is the democratic nominee, trump will win in a landslide? >> i believe that's exactly correct. the republicans will stay with donald trump. they have energy to defeat hillary clinton. clinton is the uniter of our party. we know we can't weather four more years of hillary clinton. the supreme court, 4-4, next president may appoint three supreme court judges. 7-2 liberal supreme court directed by clinton for decades would end america as we know it.
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when this comes out as that message is brought forward into the general election, wolf, i absolutely believe we could see a reaganesque victory come november. >> bernie sanders says the delegate system on the democratic side is rigged. we heard that word a lot from donald trump on the republican side. is bernie sanders borrowing from the trump play book? >> certainly using some of that language, but he's right. we may have complaints, what happened on the republican side. the democrat side is ten times worse with the superdelegates. i mean, bernie and hillary are a couple hundred real delegates apart. their system is so rigged. but you know, these aren't pledged, i think as hillary loses one state after another, those superdelegates as they're called may be rethinking their choice of hillary clinton, so who knows what's going to happen on that front. i expect it will be hillary, but as bernie says, if he goes to that convention, she doesn't have it locked up, see what the
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superdelegates do. but their system is absolutely more rigged than anyone would have thought about the republican side. >> 50% f democratic delegates are superdelegates, 85% are elected in primaries and caucuses. stand by. we will show viewers more live pictures. these are protesters at a trump rally about to get under way in south bend, indiana. we will take a quick break. more after this. you know when i first started out, it was all pencil and paper. the surface pro is very intuitive. with the pressure of my hand i can draw lightly, just like i would with a real pencil. i've been a forensic artist for over 30 years. i do the composite sketches which are the bad guy sketches. you need good resolution, powerful processor because the computer has to start thinking as fast as my brain does. i do this because i want my artwork to help people.
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you see the police there, indiana's primary as you know is tomorrow. some demonstrators are holding american flags, some holding mexican flags. very anti-trump. a lot of signs supporting bernie sanders at that rally as well. we are watching all of this closely. the republican frontrunner facing heat for another controversial comment he made. back with new york congressman chris collins, he was the first republican member of the house to publicly support donald trump. congressman, trump is getting criticism for saying china is, quote, raping our country. can you see why that term is offensive to some? >> i suppose i can certainly understand that. we all know what he's saying. they have been stealing our jobs, stealing the future from our children and grandchildren doing that. when the democratic minister of china says donald trump would be bad for china's economy, you're darn right donald trump will be bad for china's economy. that in and of itself should give americans, the soccer moms,
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working class democrats hopes. those jobs are coming back. would i have used that word, no, i would not have. he's making a point that for many, many years now they have been stealing the jobs. i don't know how you can put a happy face on that at all. so donald said what he said, we know what he meant. they have been stealing our jobs. they have been stealing the future from our children and grandchildren. that's pretty emotional. >> republican congressman, senator i should say, lindsey graham says if trump is elected, there will be another 9/11 in his words, he is very anti-donald trump as you know. i want you to react to that strong statement. >> well, i call that pathetic to try to even put somebody -- i can't believe he would have said that to be honest with you. we are in a very dangerous world. isis unfortunately because of obama's weakness is doing much better than anyone could have
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ever expected. when obama called them the jv, that was pretty ridiculous, but they are a threat, it's going to take a long time to defeat isis. we need somebody that will stay the course like donald trump, that won't give the play book to the enemy ahead of time, tell them when we're going in, how many troops, where our planes are, the silliness. it has been downright pathetic again what barack obama has done tipping off the adversaries. no one can predict what's going to happen. we know we're in a dangerous world. we know isis and others would like to scare americans if you will into not living the lives we live. we just have to be diligent, we have to make sure we are always aware of what's going on. to make a statement like that, i would have not expected. >> congressman chris collins in new york. thanks for joining us. >> wolf, always good to be with you. >> thank you. once again, we're standing by for that trump rally in indiana,
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his last rally ahead of the primary in that state tomorrow. see some of the protesters who gathered on the street outside that location. also, bernie sanders, why is he sounding more like donald trump when it comes to the delegate system established by the democrats? stay with us. you both have a perfect driving record. >>perfect. no tickets. no accidents... >>that is until one of you clips a food truck, ruining your perfect record. >>yup... now, you would think your insurance company would cut you some slack, right?
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these of live pictures from south bend, indiana, from a donald trump that's about to get under way. you see some u.s. and mexican flags, you see signs for bernie sanders supporters, they're there as well. we will continue to monitor it. police are there. so far pretty peaceful at the demonstration outside the rally where trump is getting ready to speak. trump has been crisscrossing indiana ahead of the primary. they'll be speaking at the rally shortly in south bend, and for his rival, ted cruz, the stakes in indiana now are critical. let's get more with senior political analyst and senior editor ron brownstein, executive editor mark preston, glorj i can't borger, and david swerdlick. david, if trump wins tomorrow in indiana, polls show he is well positioned to win, what could cruz realistically do? >> i think he will continue on, there will be a lot of pressure
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from inside the party for him and john kasich i should say to kind of give it up. i think cruz continues if the money holds out to go through to what he wants to be a contested convention. i think if trump wins indiana overwhelmingly, wins the lion's share of the delegates, at least 30 delegates out of 57, he's going to start collecting the amount that he needs to get if not over the magic number of 1237 then really close to it. close enough so that republicans, including delegates, believe they can't deny him the nomination. >> you and i covered politics, mark, for awhile. usually candidates drop out when behind but when they also don't have money left. california, that's coming up. you need a lot of money to be effective advertising in a state like california. >> you do. there are many large media markets and they're expensive.
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it is not like advertising in a state like iowa where media markets aren't as expensive. what you'll see cruz do, i don't think he will drop out after indiana. >> does he have money to stay in? >> i believe so. he will have cover from super pacs that will come in that are so anti-trump, at some point they have to consider throwing in good money after a bad cause at some point. i think cruz will go surgically into california, pick specific media markets, and just campaign in those media markets. probably won't see him in san francisco, certainly in san diego and orange county. >> you keep hearing donald trump day after day say the system is rigged, the republican system is rigged against him. if it were to go to contested convention, how do you think that would play out because he has so many more votes than any of the other republican candidates. >> if it is contested, i think it will be raucous. not going to predict violence like some of the rallies.
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inside the convention, outside protesters, trump laid ground work among hardcore supporters to say any resistance to his inevitability is crooked, the fix is in, his supporters are ready for a fight. i would say i agree with mark and gloria that cruz will probably stay in, he has a case to stay in, he is the only one out of a field of 18 that's given trump any challenge. >> at some point if you win, you have to stop complaining about the system being rigged. you look at trump, this has worked in his favor to a great degree because he has won, he is going to get more delegates than his percentage of the votes so far, so he's complaining now -- >> some states were winner take all, he got all of the delegates in like florida which was a winner take all state and he won there. ron, let's talk about the cnn national poll, donald trump's
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national support clearly growing, cruz is losing support nationally among republicans. he is still having trouble with women. 43% like trump. 54% of men like trump. is this a potential bigger problem down the road in the general election against hillary clinton? >> yeah, much more of a general election issue, wolf. this is consistent with what we have seen in actual voting in exit polls. donald trump is running eight or nine points behind his number among men with women. this is consistent with that. in the last few primaries he has seen his numbers improve across the board, new york, connecticut, maryland, pennsylvania, his best four states among women, best four states tied among college graduates. he is seeing i think the resistance collapsing. it is a general election issue. for all of the talk of gender gap, modern exit polling going back to 1972, the only one that won that general election was clinton in 1986.
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there is a lot of room for republicans to work. the challenge is barack obama lost white women by 14 points in 2012 and still won. that means they don't have a lot more to give if hillary clinton can improve there, that's going to be a challenge for trump, particularly with college educated white women who are most resistant to him in general election polling from the beginning. >> he has to win white men by an overwhelming margin, like 60 or 70% white men to overcome the gender chasm. >> can he attract, hold on, i want to ask mark, can he attract, trump, some of the bernie sanders blue collar voters that love bernie sanders, may not necessarily love hillary clinton, will they as trump says be open to going for him? >> let me -- maybe one or two of them, absolutely not. they believe in a different set of policies in politics. when we talk about populism in donald trump and bernie sanders having this populous rhetoric,
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it is populous rhetoric, it is just a different volume and flavor. there's no way those democrats will leave hillary clinton and go to donald trump. >> there will be blue collar reagan democrats as you know, david, that might like donald trump. >> if i can poke a hole in the idea of reagan democrats, if someone hasn't voted for a democrat since 1980, are they still a democrat? but in terms of sanders supporters, right. i think democrats have to be worried about, not that they'll cross to trump but maybe that they'll just stay home and not vote. >> what about the reagan democrats, ron. talk about them. you studied them over the years. >> to david's point, first of all, noncollege whites provide half all the votes that hillary clinton won in 1992. by the time barack obama was reelected in 2012, they provided only a quarter of his votes. dplats are less deep dent on working class whites. they realigned.
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they replaced those coalitions by millennials and liberal college educated whites. a swing group in the election are working class white women. donald trump will post big numbers with working class white men. possibly like reagan in 1984. whereas hillary clinton will be strong among college white women. working class white women leaned more republican than people understand in the past 30 years. they're a group that respond to many economic arguments donald trump may make and perhaps some of his security arguments. the challenge he has got, many of them see him as someone who doesn't understand their lives, represents a view of family life, gender relations that are several decades in the past. that's a place he has to work. without that, wolf, the idea of him running through the midwest through ohio, michigan, wisconsin is not going to get off the ground. >> stand by. much more to talk about,
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including what's going on on the democratic side. take a quick break. be right back. customer service! ma'am. this isn't a computer... wait. you're real? with discover card, you can talk to a real person in the u.s., like me, anytime. wow. this is a recording. really? no, i'm kidding. 100% u.s.-based customer service. here to help, not to sell. don'don't go to la, don't go to tokyo. live there. "come in, come in" when you airbnb, you have your own home. make your bed. cook. you know, the stuff you normally do. ♪ wherever you go... ♪ don't go there. ♪ live there. ♪ even if it's just for a night. ♪ what's going on here? i'm val, the orange money retirement squirrel from voya. we're putting away acorns. you know, to show the importance of saving for the future. so you're sort of like a spokes person? more of a spokes metaphor.
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thank you! thank you! what a week! we sat down, we kicked back, and we watched tv! [ cheering ] this win is just the beginning! it doesn't end here. because your laundry can wait! keep those sweatpants on! order another pizza! and watch on! [ cheering ] don't wait a whole year for xfinity watchathon week to return. upgrade now to add the premium channel of your choice so you can keep watching. call or go online today. positive signs for hillary clinton in our brand new cnn orc poll shows a slim majority of democrats saying she's their choice for the presidential nominee, shows growing enthusiasm for her candidacy up seven points since march.
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her rival, bernie sanders, is predicting a contested convention in philadelphia. our senior washington correspondent jeff zeleny is following the democrats for us. sanders thinks clinton won't clinch the nomination through pledge delegates alone. what's the latest? >> reporter: wolf, he probably is right about that that she will not clinch through pledge delegates alone, but barack obama didn't eight years ago either. those aren't the democratic party rules. superdelegate delegates with pledge delegates count to hit that 2383. the question increasingly, wolf, is not whether hillary clinton crosses the finish line, it is when, and whether she's sprinting through or limping. >> let us tomorrow have the biggest turnout in indiana history! >> reporter: bernie sanders is firing up voters today across indiana, asking democrats to put the brakes on hillary clinton's march to the nomination. but she's already moving on. >> we cannot let barack obama's
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legacy fall into donald trump's hands. >> reporter: on the eve of the indiana primary, clinton is looking ahead to a fall matchup with trump and to primary contests down the line. visiting appalachia, clinton buying cookies from girl scouts and talking trade with kentucky steal workers. >> but i don't believe that we should be subsidizing in effect the rest of the world. we got some cards to play and we need to play those cards. >> reporter: in indiana, the race seems close, clinton leading sanders narrowly. her advantage is stronger nationally, leading sanders 8 points in the new cnn, orc poll. sanders is increasingly showing frustration, not only at clinton but at democratic rules. >> when we talk about a rigged system, it's also important to understand how the democratic
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convention works. >> reporter: sanders particularly frustrated with superdelegates or party officials who also have a say. >> it makes it hard for insurgent candidacies like ours to win. but you know what? we're going to fight for every last vote. >> reporter: that fight is getting harder and the battle to win the nomination more uphill. clinton is shy of 2383 needed. trump is following sanders' words carefully, plans to use them against hillary clinton. >> bernie sanders said she shouldn't be allowed to run, that she's not capable. what he said is incredible. it is a sound bite. >> we asked sanders whether it bothered him. >> no. the republican party and trump have the resources to do all the opposition research they want on secretary clinton. they don't need bernie sanders' critiques of the secretary.
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>> reporter: the rhetoric is not softening much in the campaign at all. today alone, the sanders campaign suggested the clinton campaign was running a money laundering scheme because of the joint fundraising committee they have. clinton pushed back, saying they're trying to raise money off this in closing days of the race. wolf, you see the crowd in downtown indianapolis, several thousand have gathered, waiting for senator sanders. clear they're not ready for this contest to be over yet. how the outcome is tomorrow will signal how long the race goes, and how much secretary clinton has to fight bernie sanders. >> thank you. he doesn't think she will win the amount of pledge delegates, forget the superdelegates. is that true? >> she will win a majority of pledge delegates, but that majority will not represent a majority of all delegates.
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you need them. as jeff pointed out, superdelegates are 15% of the total. if you're going to win without them, you have to win 60% of what is remaining, those are not plausible arguments to make. i think it is a bigger question whether superdelegates exist in the same form going forward because bernie sanders is right. this is exactly what they were designed to do. they were designed to create obstacles. created after 1980 amids frustration with democratic party leaders that produced george mcgovern in 1972 that couldn't win and jimmy carter in 1976 that won and couldn't govern. yes, he is right, they are doing what they were designed to do. that function may be obsolete, i would not be surprised to see a peace settlement between sanders and clinton forces to entrench the roll of superdelegates in the process. they now cast 15% of all delegate votes, and that may be rolled back.
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>> the numbers, gloria, on the screen, look at hillary clinton's numbers, bernie sanders' numbers, you see overall delegate county, 2178 for hillary clinton, 1400 for bernie sanders, but if you look at the pledge delegates, she has 1666, he has 1359. but she has 512 superdelegates to his 41. can he convince some of the 500 superdelegates to flip? >> does anyone other than me think it is a little ironic that bernie sanders, the insurgent candidate, is going to the superdelegates who are the party insiders and saying to the party insiders, by the way, change your mind right now because the process stinks and you need to support me. i don't think he's the best person, wolf, to make that argument quite frankly and i think it is going to fall on deaf ears because the party believes that hillary clinton is the candidate who can beat
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donald trump. he will say that the polls don't show that, but increasingly you look at our poll, 80% of people believe she will be the nominee. i think it is a very difficult argument for him to make to delegates. to superdelegates. >> mark, what do you think? >> listen, i think when he talks about a contested convention, i don't think he's talking about contesting the fact he will be the nominee. i think he is laying down the marker that he is going to cleveland, that he is more interested in fighting for specific liberal policy proposals than he is to take her on and try to take her out as the eventual nominee. i agree with ron and with gloria, there probably is going to be some change to the system about how democrats choose their nominee, and in fact, everybody forgets this, barack obama tried and failed to do so. >> very quickly, bernie sanders
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still has a lot of money. in april he raised $25.8 million, hillary clinton raised 26.4 million, but that's a lot less than he raise the month before and before that, what does that say? >> the sanders campaign has overperformed anybody's expectations across the board, including fund-raising. with clinton catching him, it signals that in my opinion democrats feel like clinton's campaign, she's a flawed candidate, has been very durable, she has gained momentum, she has hung in there and been successful so far. >> i want everyone to remember to stay with us through the day tomorrow for live coverage of the indiana primary. i will be here with the entire election team throughout the night, starting here in "the situation room." 5:00 p.m. eastern. just ahead, we're getting new details of the raid that killed osama bin laden exactly five years ago. i'll speak to the man who was the cia chief at the time, leon panetta. he's standing by live. [phone rings]
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five years ago today, president obama announced to the nation, indeed to the world, that u.s. navy s.e.a.l.s had raided a compound in pakistan and killed al qaeda leader, osama bin laden. joining us is tony panetta. thanks very much for joining us. >> nice to be with you, wolf. >> president obama spoke with cnn's peter bergin in the white house situation room on the anniversary of the raid. i want you to listen to the president describing how it was making that final decision. listen to this.
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>> i could honestly say, by the time i made the decision, that everybody had had their say. that we had aull the informatio we were going to be able to get. we had not looked at it through rose-colored glasses. we knew the risks involved. we had prepared as well as we could. and it was in that way emblematic of presidential decision making. you're always working with probabilities. and you make a decision, not based on 100% certainty, but with the best information that you get. >> if somebody would have told you on that day, and you were the cia director, that five years later we would all be facing threats from isis, al qaeda central, the nusra front, al shabaab, boca haram, if
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somebody would have said look what's in store five years from now, what would you have said? >> well, i would not have anticipated that al qaeda would have met as sized the way it did. we were obviously focused on al qaeda, on al qaeda's spiritual leader, going after somebody who attacked the united states of america on 9/11. and that was our principle focus. and when we were able to achieve that mission, wolf, i thought that we had made significant progress in decimating al qaeda. unfortunately, it's met as sized into other forms of terrorism. >> it certainly has. and another point i'm just curious. because as we know, five years ago today, the u.s. launched the navy s.e.a.l.s, bin laden was killed. but adied's number two man -- al
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zawahiri, still at large, why hasn't the u.s. been able toel capture him or kill him? >> well, i'm sure it's not for lack of effort. you know, at the time, there was no question that the central focus was going to be on focusing on zawahiri after we had gotten bin laden. and i thought, frankly, it would be just a matter of time before we would be able to pin him down. for whatever reason, that hasn't happened. but i'm very confident that at some point, those that are in the search for zawahiri will find him. >> here's another question that's always lingered in my mind. dr. shaquille al freedy, helped the cia find bin laden in pakistan. he's still in a pakistani prison. why? >> well, i regret that very much. it's, you know, part of some of the problems we have had with
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the pakistanis over this entire issue. at the time when we were considering the operation, one of the options was clearly to work with pakistan. that would have made the operation a lot easier when we did it. but because of the concern that we could not trust the pakistanis, it was the president's decision that we really ought to do this on our own. and i think the reaction of the pakistanis and what they have done to people that were very important to that operation just tells us that that relationship has not been very good for a long time. >> do you believe high-ranking pakistani officials were protecting bin laden in that abad i bad compound which was considered the west point of the pakistan military? >> well, when we were able to track the couriers to that compound and located it in
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abbottabad, you know, the first question that came to our mind is whether or not the pakistanis were aware of this. because it was the location of their west point, it was the location of intelligence units that were located in the same area. and just the fact that he was located in this compound that was three times the size of other compounds, had 18-foot walls on one side, had 12-foot walls on the other side and was obviously exercising high security. the question occurred to us that there might be some tie-in. i've never seen clear evidence that people at the upper end of the pakistani leadership really knew that that was the case. but i've always suspected that somebody, somewhere down the line, might well have known that somebody, you know, as high-ranking as bin laden was located in that area. >> and i know there is a lot of
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suspicion still on that issue. has the rise of isis now -- isis used to be al qaeda in iraq, as we know. has it distracted the u.s.? does al qaeda central still pose a significant terror threat to the u.s.? >> i think it's important to remember that there continue to be elements of al qaeda focusing on attacking the united states. so i do think that we have been successful at decimating their leadership, going after bin laden, going after their command and control operation and going after their capability to design another 9/11 type attack. but the reality is, we are dealing now with isis, which represents a very clear and present danger to this country. it's a very different kind of danger. the al qaeda threat was very centralizeded. the isis threat is much more
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dispersed. they've got a huge number of recruits, their quasi state. they've got a number of affiliates. so the threat coming from isis is different in the sense that i think they operate more on a lone wolf kind of basis, where an individual can be inspired to conduct an attack, and that, i think, represents probably the principle threat from isis. >> yeah, what worries me, and we don't have time to continue this, but i'll just button it up. what worries me is, al qaeda central, they always went for the big operation like a 9/11, if you will. and they're very patient. they waited years before the first attack on the world trade center until the second attack on the world center. so there is still a threat potentially down the road. leon panetta, as usual, thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you, wolf. good to be with you. >> thank you. and by the way, to our viewers, you can see the full interview with president obama recalling the killing of bin lad on a special edition of "ac 360"
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later tonight, 8:00 p.m. eastern. you're going to want to see this. to our viewers, thanks very much for watching. i'm wolf blitzer in "the situation room." erin burnett "outfront" starts right now. "outfront" next, breaking news, protests growing outside a trump rally in indiana tonight, on the eve of the most consequential primary election yet. we're live on the scene. and do or die for ted cruz's campaign. can he stop donald trump? one-on-one interviw with cruz coming up "outfront." plus, how donald trump is turning carly fiorina's on-stage tumble into a slam on the cruz campaign. you have to see this to believe it. let's go "outfront." and good evening. i'm erin burnett. "outfront" tonight, we begin with the breaking news protesters gatheringing outside a donald trump rally. his last rally in indiana

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