tv The Lead With Jake Tapper CNN March 15, 2017 1:00pm-2:01pm PDT
can donald trump sell the health care plan the same way he told himself to voters? and is he even willing to try? "the lead" starts right now. president trump in his element, hitting the campaign trail, expecting to sell a health care plan tonight, one that he's not yet willing to put his name on. leaving the house speaker to deal with the fall out in washington. paul ryan is going to join us live in just minutes. no evidence, house intelligence committee leaders including one trump supporter saying there is no proof the president's told the truth when he accused president obama of wiretapping him at trump tower. plus, this town is run by elephants and donkeys, but today we have a shark. mark cuban talking to us about president trump's taxes, his leadership, and what he thinks the president is really worth. good afternoon, everyone. welcome to "the lead." i'm jake tapper. topping our politics lead today, president trump is taking his act to nashville as he tries to sell his obamacare repeal and
replace plan. the plan that his white house does not want us to call trumpcare. perhaps that's because back in washington support for the plan looks increasingly shaky, especially after the congressional budget office report that says 24 million fewer americans will have health insurance under the republicans' plan. as house leaders face the dilemma of moderates and conservatives in their party who each want to make changes that might alienate the other block. for its part, the white house wants to negotiate, but some prominent trump supporters now seem prepared to call the legislation a failure and hang it around the neck of house speaker paul ryan. cnn correspondent sunlen is live on capitol hill. sunlen, the president gave a speech in michigan today. did he even mention the health care plan? >> reporter: he did not, jake. not one single word about health care today, the first of two stops today. and frankly, this is a time when the president needs to be out fully selling his health care plan. opposition is growing up here on
capitol hill, especially opposition among republicans. tonight president trump hitting the road, and vice-president pence working capitol hill. facing the same ominous question. >> are you concerned this doesn't have the votes to pass, mr. vice-president? >> reporter: with the republican health care plan hanging tenuously in the balance -- >> they don't have our votes, but more importantly they need to discover they do not have your votes. >> reporter: opposition in congress is growing by the day. >> i am leaning no because i don't think the current bill can pass in the senate. i think that the bill has to be strengthened >> reporter: the house bill in its current form can only afford to lose 21 republican votes. according to cnn's latest whip count, already 18 house republicans have said no or are leaning that way. and speaker of the house paul ryan's bill faces an even steeper climb in the senate. >> i don't think anyone believes this current form would pass in the u.s. senate. >> reporter: sources tell cnn
privately the white house is encouraging leadership to make more changes now, acknowledging the current house bill cannot pass in the senate. >> they aren't only writing a bill for 218 votes in the house of representatives. they've got to be writing a bill that gets 51 votes and republican votes in the united states senate. >> reporter: a senior republican aide telling cnn the white house is, quote, definitely looking at pretty big changes to the ryan bill. but speaker ryan is standing firm. >> we want to listen to our members, make improvements to the bill so long as those improvements don't make the bill harder to pass. >> reporter: pushing ahead with his bill with little or no changes. >> this is why we have a three-part process. you can't put everything you want in that bill like, say, interstate shopping across state lines. and, so, this bill is what we can pass through reconciliation. >> reporter: republican senator lindsey graham today completely crushing that promise to pass more legislation later on. >> slow down, get it right. you're not going to get 60 votes
to buy insurance across state lines. that is a fantasy in the senate. if you think that's supported to health care reform, it's never going to happen in the senate. >> reporter: and to give you an indication of just how intense all the movement on here up here on capitol hill on all of this is, you have vice-president pence who will be spending the majority of his day up here right now meeting with individual members, trying to sell this bill. later he meets with the full republican conference. we have speaker of the house paul ryan. he's set to hold an evening press conference with the latest. all this going into a hugely significant day up here. tomorrow, jake, you have the house budget committee who will start to mark up their portion of the bill. that's essential because that is potentially the last step before this bill reaches the full house floor. jake? >> all right, sunlen on capitol hill for us, thank you so much. and house speaker paul ryan will join me live in just a few minutes to discuss the house republican health care bill. stick around. as difficult a task as president trump might be having pitching his health care bill to voters, it is nothing compared
to convincing skeptics even those in his own party and administration of the veracity of his wild and apparently false charge that president obama had him wiretapped at trump tower during the election. pardon me. this morning leaders of the house intelligence committee reaffirmed that they have seen absolutely zero evidence proving president trump's claims. this comes as right now fbi director james comey is briefing members of the senate judiciary committee behind closed doors. cnn's manu raju joins me now live from capitol hill. manu, do we know the focus of this meeting? >> reporter: well, jake, the reason for this meeting is because of frustration voiced by the senate judiciary chairman chuck grassley that he was not getting enough information about what the fbi was doing in its investigations including any investigations that are ongoing about russia and its ties to the trump campaign. now, grassley had threatened to hold up the number two nominee at the justice department, rod rosenstein between the deputy
attorney general if he didn't get a briefing. so, as a result, james comey here behind closed doors in a classified setting with diane feinstein, the top democrat on the committee. we'll see if they answer the key questions some members on the judiciary committee were hoping to get today, is there an investigation ongoing into the trump campaign? that answer did not come by this afternoon, a deadline that apparently comey gave to sheldon whitehouse, a democrat on the committee, we'll see if he does it in this classified briefing that's happening right now, jake. >> and manu, earlier today we heard and rare agreement from democrats and republicans on the fact that there doesn't appear to be any evidence for the president's wiretapping charge. >> reporter: yeah, that's right. house intelligence committee making pretty strong statement, including the republican chairman devin nunez who actually has not gone as far as he did today by saying he does not believe that donald trump was wiretapped under the orders of barack obama. i asked him, what gives you that
confidence? take a listen. >> we don't have any evidence that that took place and, in fact, i don't believe just in the last week of time the people we talked to, i don't think there was an actual tap of trump tower. president obama wouldn't physically go over and wiretap trump tower. so, now you have to decide, as i mentioned to you last week, are you going to take the tweets literally and if you are then clearly the president was wrong. >> reporter: now, the committee actually asked the department of justice to provide any information by this past monday to support the president trump's claim. they did not get that information. now they want it by next monday, which is when comey and other top officials will be testifying in a public setting and the house intelligence committee. if they don't get that information there, they said they may subpoena for that information. that is something the senate judiciary subkplee is threatening as well if they don't get that information about any evidence of wiretapping, jake. >> all right, manu, the house
intelligence committee chairman nunez and the ranking member, democratic congressman adam schiff, they seem to have different views whether it can be ruled out that there was any communications between members of the trump team and campaign and russia. >> yeah, and that's a central aspect of this ongoing house intelligence committee investigation. devin nunez the republican chairman batting down the idea of any contacts, something that his democratic counterpart really is not there quite yet. this is our exchange from earlier today. >> is there anything you've seen in the evidence so far that suggests that there were any conversations between people affiliated with the trump campaign, people, russian officials who are not the investigators of russia? >> not that i'm aware of. you know, i wouldn't answer that question as categorically as my colleague. and we're not privileged to talk about the contents of the investigation, but i think we need to be very precise when we
talk about this. and i just don't think we can answer that answer categorically and not in this forum. >> reporter: now, one area that adam schiff is concerned about, jake, are contacts that apparently occurred between roger stone, a trump advisor, and russian officials, russian hacker, apparently during the campaign season. that is something adam schiff raises significant concerns when i asked him about that at the press conference. devin nunez said he's not that concerned. he barely knows who roger stone is. so it shows some disagreement between partisan lines on this investigation and we'll see what they eventually can agree upon and eventually decide to disclose, jake. >> all right, manu raju, on capitol hill, thanks so much. joining being me now is former democratic presidential candidate bernie sanders of vermont. thanks so much for joining us. >> my pleasure. >> earlier today the chairman and ranking democrat on the house intelligence committee said they know of no evidence that president trump was
wiretapped during the obama administration. what's your reaction? >> i am not shocked. i mean, i think we have a president who says things time and time again that have no basis in fact, and there is no evidence behind them. i think it's very sad and dangerous state of affairs, jake, because the day is going to come when some tragedy is going to befall our country and the world and people are not going to believe this president. so, i would hope that the advisors to the president tell him, you just can't say anything you want to say if it's not true. and that's got to change. >> do you think president trump needs to retract the statement and apologize to president obama? >> among many other statements. you know, time after time, what he says is factually untrue. he lies. and i say that not with any political partisan ship here. it's just a fact. you cannot say anything you want to say, which is not backed up by evidence.
and he does this time and time again. this is dangerous because there will be a day when something real happens. he's going to tell the american people, donald trump, he's lying again. who believes him? bad stuff. >> senator sanders, stick a under ro. we have lots more to discuss including, of course, the republican plan to repeal and replace obamacare. that's next. stay with us. hey, searching for a great used car? i don't want one that's had a big wreck just say, show me cars with no accidents reported find the cars you want, avoid the ones you don't plus you get a free carfax® report with every listing i like it start your used car search at carfax.com what makesheart healthysalad the becalifornia walnuts.r? the best simple veggie dish ever? heart healthy california walnuts. the best simple dinner ever? heart healthy california walnuts.
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and welcome back. we're back with former democratic presidential candidate bernie sanders of vermont. let's turn to the debate going on on capitol hill. a lot is being made out of the congressional budget office estimate that there will be 24 million more uninsured americans within a decade if the republican plan goes forward. but the cbo also says that a portion of those 24 million will be individuals who want out of the insurance market who voluntarily drop out and who are only buying insurance now under threat of penalty. theoretically, why shouldn't americans have the freedom to not buy health insurance if they don't want to? >> well, theoretically in my view, jake, the united states should join every other major
country and guarantee health care to all people as a right. now, it is understandable that if you're young and you're healthy and you don't have a lot of money, you would say, well, you know what, i don't need to buy health insurance. but on the other hand, you can get hit by a bus tomorrow, end up in bankruptcy having your credit rating destroyed. so, i think what most americans believe, certainly people all over the world, health care is a right. now, it is disturbing also that while it is true some may voluntarily drop out, the other truth is that older people, according to the aar p, people are making about $26,000 a year will be forced to pay $7,000 a year more than they are currently paying for the same health care. in other words, the cost of health insurance for older people is going to rise precipitously. and many of those people are going to drop out, not voluntarily. it's just that they cannot afford the health care they need. imagine being 60 years of age and not being able to afford the
health care that you need. that is part of what the republican program is. bottom line is, though, that our goal should be to provide health insurance to all people, not to throw 24 million people off of health insurance, raise rates for older people, de-fund planned parenthood, decimate medicaid. decimate medicaid and take people getting opiate treatments off the treatment they're currently getting. this is not, jake -- we should be clear about this. this is not health care reform. you don't throw 24 million people off of health care and call it reform. this is tax reform providing $275 billion in tax breaks for the top 2% at a time of massive income wealth and inequality. it is a grotesque and ugly plan. let me conclude by saying this. if you are old and you have no health insurance, you're 55, 60 years of age, and you have no health insurance and you're sick, you will die.
you may die because you can't get to a doctor when you should. >> let me ask you about that, senator. because you've said if this repeal and replace plan goes forward, thousands of americans will die. where do you get that estimate from? >> i get that estimate from the fact that studies have been done that people who do not have health insurance, who do not go to the doctor when they should, who do not go to the hospital when they need to go, in fact die. and thousands of people die every year because they don't have health insurance. and if you throw 24 million people off of health insurance, there is no doubt that many thousands of people will die. look, jake, i have talked to doctors in vermont and all over this country who see patients, who walk in the door, and they're really sick. and the doctor says, why didn't you come in when you first had your symptom? and the patient says, well, i have a high deductible or i didn't have any health insurance, i didn't want to come in. sometimes it is too late to treat those people. >> senator, you know in many
states, obamacare is in dire straits. the governor of minnesota, liberal democrat, said the affordable care act is unaffordable, according to hhs in 2017 there is going to be nearly 25% decline in the number of insurers participating in obamacare compared to 2016. don't democrats own this bill that in many states is failing? >> no, i think what the american -- look, what you're saying is true. no one, certainly not me, that the affordable care act, obamacare, has many serious problems. deductibles are too high, premiums are too high. we still have too many people that don't have health insurance. it's too complicated, too bureaucratic. let's sit down and address those issues. there are many people under the affordable care act cannot afford their health care, that's true. let's deal with that. the solution is not to throw 24 million people off of health insurance and substantially raise premiums for older workers and furthermore to cut
medicare -- to cut planned parenthood, to de-fund planned parenthood and throw millions of people off their choice of health care right now. >> senator, let me ask you. you talked about the high deductibles. republicans say many of the people who were mandated to get insurance under obamacare and right now currently count as individuals who have health insurance were bags cli not able to get any access to health care -- >> that's right. >> -- because the deductibles are so high. in fact, they're counted as having health insurance, but really they had no access to care. >> that's a very pair point, jake. that will be made worse by this so-called republican plan. what the republicans will say is, okay, you have health insurance, but what you have is a catastrophic plan and you have $10,000 deduction. so, the point is this is one of the crises that we face now. it will only be made worse under the republican plan.
and that is that people today have very, very high deductibles which prevents them from going to the doctor when they should. furthermore, let me add to that, that many rural airs in in country, you can have a great insurance program, but you can't find a doctor because we are medically under served and we don't have enough primary health care physicians. >> senator bernie sanders of vermont, thank you so much. appreciate your time. >> thank you. >> even the white house is now signalling that the house republican health care bill will not get through the senate in its current form. so, what is house speaker paul ryan to do? he'll join us live in just a few minutes. plus, from taking a part nba rest to taking on president trump, what does mark que man think about the new information about mr. trump's taxes and much more? he'll join us live next.
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welcome back to "the lead". the money lead now, today we are getting a glimpse and i do mean a glimpse at president trump's financials after tax reporter david k. johnston mysteriously received two pages of donald trump's tax returns in the mail according to him. they show in 2005 mr. trump paid $ $38 million in federal income taxes on a reported income of 150 million. joining me now to talk about is investor, one of the hosts of shark tank, owner of the dallas mavericks, star of billions and shark 3, mark cuban, thanks for joining us. >> thanks for having me. >> what do you think about it? >> he had a good year. anybody who makes $150 million, you applaud them and you say congratulations and you know how well they did that year and really doesn't tell you anything
else. >> he paid an effective tax rate of 25%. >> right. >> turns out we looked at some of other people whose tax returns we've seen, that is a higher rate than mitt romney paid in 2011 -- >> if you know you're going to have a big windfall like he sold a big building that year, you're going to aggregate all your expenses to push down. and because of the alternative minimum tax, you can only get it down so low in certain circumstances. so, really comparing rates is apples to oranges. there is really not a purpose in doing that. >> you have been a very vocal skeptic of president trump's claims to be a billionaire, much less a ten times older. if he made $150 million in 2005, is that the tax return of somebody who might be worth a billion dollars >> don't know, right? i read somewhere that he sold a building with his japanese partners that year. he might have gotten an advance from the apprentice that year. you manage things like my attitude has always been you let your winners ride and you only sell when you need to. i've had some years where i've
had huge numbers and other years where, you know, my income was far less. so you can't really tell because you try to manage, too, what your taxes are going to be in a lot of respects. >> you mentioninged the amt, the alternative minimum tax. people may not know what that is. president trump wanted to get rid of t. he would have paid much less than 25% if the amt didn't exist. >> you can argue both ways. it's kind of annoying when you have to write that big check when you think you have offsetting deductions. look, i don't have a problem paying taxes. i don't have a problem where tax rates are for personal taxes. i'd like to see corporate taxes much lower. i'd like to see inversions from companies moving be far fewer. so, yeah, from a corporate tax perspective i agree with him. i like what he's doing from that perspective and we'll see what he does on the personal side. >> let's talk about the trump administration. you obviously were a big supporter of hillary clinton. we're about seven weeks into the trump administration. what do you think? >> no leadership skills, no management skills, not very good
communication skills, but he's obviously had an impact on the economy so he gets credit for that. people believe in what he's doing on the tax front. they believe and i agree on the reduction of regulation. not all regulation, epa i don't agree with. simplification of doing business i agree with. reducing some of the bureaucracy and the lobbying rules, there's a lot of positives that are positives for business. you still have to look at the bigger picture because even though he's put out these executive orders, even though he's signalled the intent to do all these things and the market has believed in it, any leader, particularly the president, has got to lead and he's got to get these things passed. and we're seeing the difficulties of his communication skills with what we're seeing with obamacare versus trumpcare. >> let's talk about, you said no leadership skills, no management skills, no communication skills. let's start with leadership skills. where are the leadership skills wanting in your view? >> you look at the leaks.
>> from the white house, ones from the white house? >> from the white house. any organization -- i've been in take over scenarios, companies where i purchased where there's been bad culture, right. you have to sit down and where people disagree with you, you've got to say look, there's going to be issues but let's discuss this. let's communicate so you don't have to communicate with the public. if you have a problem have that problem with me, tell me and let's resolve it. that's not what he's done. when you don't communicate ask you cocoon yourself that's where you get leak issues. i heard stories from the technology policy, they were leading people out in plastic handcuffs. they thought they leaked. they said, you're fired. we'll take your stuff. they put them in handcuffs and do a perp walk, last week, two weeks ago. that's not how you send a message of inclusion. that's not how you communicate with the people you want to get to follow you and follow your lead so you have a common goal you can accomplish. >> what about communication skills? obviously that is something he prides himself on. he was obviously able to communicate with enough voters in enough states to become president. >> yeah, i mean, you know,
rallying the crowd and putting together a hype video and managing and leading people are two different things. when it comes to communication skills, you know, have you seen him answer any questions? what's the one topic you look at him and say, boy, he has in-depth knowledge? at some point -- i said this to him directly. at some point you have to communicate an understanding of the issues. that's where communication skills are critical. i use the word cocooning. they're cocooning him so he doesn't have to address and actually answer any questions. when you look at and read about the meetings he has with business leaders or other organizations, it's always the same thing. tell me what you think, right. it's never, let's have an in-depth conversation. let's get to the core of a matter. you don't ever hear him saying, let's discuss the three rs of obamacare, right. let's discuss the issues of the new paul ryan proposal and here's what i disagree or agree with. it's always top line, it's always superficial. and if you can't delve into the
issues how are you going to come to a resolution on anything? >> you give him credit for the fact the dow is up and the unemployment is down. >> i do. because of the uncertainty the market would react as favorably as it has. i was wrong there. at the same time people's spirit in the business world are lifted and he gets credit for that. i hope it continues. i don't want to to go backwards. i'd tliek see the dow go to 25 and 30,000. i like seeing the economy grow at 4%. if i got it wrong he got it right, more power to the country. the reality is it's still based on talk right now. it'sal based on projection. he has to follow through and get these things passed. if the repeal and replace for obamacare falls apart and there is not the support for obamacare, there is going to be issues. if the tax -- the corporate tax proposals for tax cuts that he's suggested don't occur, we're going to go backwards quickly. and, so, he needs to fulfill
those issues -- those promises. >> before he ran for president he talked about there being a bubble and that the market was going to go down. and i am starting to hear as i'm sure you are, too, concerns that the government, that the fed isn't paying enough attention to the housing market, that some of the same mistakes that were made previously are being made again. do you have any concerns about a bubble? >> well, there's two different things. >> i know they're two different things. any economic downturn? >> the market has gone forward quickly. whenever that happens, the opportunity for a decrease goes up significantly. >> right. >> right. and the issue now is now that we're at 21,000, a 10% decline is 2000 plus points. that could frequeak people out n though it's 10%. is it an opportunity? yes. i was hedge before i'm hedge now. i haven't sold everything, i haven't protected. but just in case i have a little downside protection. i think that's a possibility, but, you know, i'm predicting a market that's almost impossible. >> what about the housing market? >> i haven't seen anything to
suggest -- in 2006 you would talk to anybody you knew, they were discussing buying a house and flipping it. they had three houses they had mortgages on. when they went to trump university and learned how to flip houses you don't hear that stuff any more. >> one thing i think donald trump will have done when his effect is measured is a lot of very wealthy successful individuals in business will probably run for office more, maybe even president. we've seen mark zuckerberg maybe sending out feelers, tom steyer i think is probably interested. what about cuban 2020, is that a possibility at all? >> i don't want to say no, but it's not my dream to be president of the united states. i mean, would i like to have influence? i love helping entrepreneurs. i love helping create jobs. i like helping to spur industry and i'm good at that. if i can continue to do that, i'm happy. but if i think there is a need -- because i think one other significant issue right now is technologically illiterate. we're about to go into artificial intelligence deep
learning those things where we literally are going to see a change in the nature of employment. these companies that he's building factories with don't pay attention to the number of jobs he's saying for the factories. pay attention to the number of jobs that are in those companies two and three years out. i guarantee you they're going dob 30 and 40% lower. >> mark cuban, good to see you. good luck against the wizards. >> i'll take it. >> the president is on the road talking to voteers, but not health plan. did the trump administration just make the house speaker's job a little bit tougher? house speaker paul ryan will join us live next. remember when you said men are supeyeah...ivers? yeah, then how'd i get this... ...allstate safe driving bonus check? ...only allstate sends you a bonus check for every six months you're accident free. silence. it's good to be in, good hands.
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tapper. sticking with our politics lead now, as george washington says
to alexander hamilton in the musical "hamilton," winning was easy, young man, governing is harder. few know that like speaker paul ryan who is trying to herd the cast of the house to repeal and replace. thank you for joining us. >> thank you, jake. i'm been using that quote a lot lately. >> i bet. there is some news from capitol hill. devin nunez confirmed there is no evidence to support president trump's claim that president obama had him wiretapped at trump tower. take a listen. >> as i mentioned to you last week, are you going to take the tweets literally and if you are, then clearly the president is wrong. >> shouldn't president trump expect that the american people are going to take him literally? >> well, sure. look, i don't know what he wants to achieve in a given tweet. some of them may or may not be intended to be interpreted that
way. i think our chair and the ranking member devin and adam gave the facts. i got the same briefing and they are still doing their investigation, all things related to russia and the election. and i think during their investigation this is information that they felt was important to shed light on and that's what they did. i support what they've done and i support their continuing investigation in this entire episode. >> the president addressed this in an interview with fox this afternoon. he said the word, wiretap covers a lot of different things, and that people are going to hear about some very interesting things in the next few weeks. do you have any idea what he's talking about? >> well, i'd say the intelligence committees are doing an ongoing investigation about all things related to russia and their involvement in our elections, their attempt to meddle in our elections. that's probably what's being discussed. we've had an investigation for quite a while actually. this isn't something that just got started. it's continuing on. so, perhaps what he's talking about is the continuation of the investigations by both the house and the senate intelligence committee which are bipartisan
investigations. >> but just to put on button on this, nothing that would suggest president obama had president trump wiretapped at trump tower as far as you know? >> that's correct. >> okay. let's move on to health care. in january, president trump told the washington post, quote, we're going tomorrow insurance for everybody. there was a philosophy in some circles that if you can't pay for it you don't get it. that's not going to happen with us. unquote. the congressional budget office, of course, says there will be 24 million more uninsured americans under your plan by 2026. i know that you dispute those numbers, but certainly what you're proposing, whatever it is, would clearly break president trump's promise of insurance for everybody. >> well, that's if you believe all these analyses. and what i mean when i say that is what the cbo also said is we would reduce premiums. our reforms when they kick in will lower prices. what our goal here is to give everyone access to affordable coverage if they want to have it. what the cbo announcement temz you basically is if the government stops forcing people to buy something they don't want to buy, then they won't buy it. on a voluntary basis.
that means those people would choose not to take a benefit they could otherwise choose to take, but they've chosen not to take it. so, the point we believe is instead of having a government one size fits all mandate system currently in a death spiral which is what obamacare is, repeal that and replace it with more competition and more choice, lower costs, lowers prices and gives everybody better access to a more affordable coverage. you combine the federal -- you combine our bill which has tax credits, risk pools, health savings accounts, that dramatically expands people's access to affordable health care coverage for those people who do not get health care from their jobs. which is what we've been talking about here. obamacare is 4% of americans. 4% of the country are on what we think of as obamacare. >> right. >> yet obamacare blew up the entire health care system. it made all health care more expensive for the rest of the individual market and for the employer market, and we have medicaid currently on an
unsustainable path such that a lot of doctors don't take medicaid any more. this thing is broken. >> right. >> and we have to fix it with something better and that's what we're trying to do. >> let me ask you, you talked about that many of the people who will not be insured any more will be uninsured because they voluntarily get off the system because the individual mandate will be over. you and i are both old enough to remember that the individual mandate was originally a republican idea. >> yes, heritage foundation came up with -- i didn't agree with it then and don't agree with it now. >> it was by grassley and hatch. the idea was personal responsibility, essentially outlawing free loaders, the people who can afford to buy insurance, but they don't buy it which means people like you and i who actually buy insurance for our families, we subsidize them. why should people who are responsible subds dies those who aren't? >> it's an excellent question. it kind of goes at the heart of the debate here and the difference between our two approaches. so, on this idea, the one you just advanced, which is actuarily on paper it makes
sense in your mind. if you force younger healthy people to buy insurance, you'll force more money into the pool to pay for the older sicker person. the problem is that doesn't work. it doesn't work in practice. it's not working now. it's in a death spiral. here's our a etch pro. we think the smarter way to go is to open up choice and competition, let more plans be offered, people buy what they want and that's why we are big believers in state based risk pools. by having federal financing to help states set up risk pools where you actually cover the catastrophic costs for people who have catastrophic illnesses, people with preexisting conditions, you directly cover those expenses so that person with a catastrophic illness doesn't go poor when they get sick, but also by covering it directly you're taking that cost out of the other pools. you're dramatically lowering the price of health care for everyone else. so that it's affordable for everybody else. we think this is a smarter way to go. target those preexisting costs, make sure that those people get the care they need, and so the insurance pool that you're buying, if you're not in that ka
category, doesn't have to cover those costs and therefore it's much more competitive and lower in price. we think that's a smarter way to go and we think people will want to participate in that kind of system. that's why if you don't get job-based insurance then you don't get any tax benefit to get a health care plan. with what we're proposing equalize the tax treatment of health care so if you do not have health care from your job, you also get a tax benefit to buy in a functioning market place where catastrophic illnesses are not going to have to be borne by your insurance or your pool, the risk pool catch that. here's the problem. it took me 12 sentences to explain. it was hard to get through. >> right. >> we think this is a smarter way to go and it gives you more market freedom, gives you more flexibility, it has more competition so we can have better innovation in health care. the alternative is the status quo and the status quo is in the middle of a collapse. >> i don't want to spend the whole time talking about it, the individual mandate, but your argument is basically just, correct me if i'm wrong, that the people that i just called free loaders who can afford
insurance but don't get it, they will just find the new health care system you create so compelling that they will join it? >> yeah, they're not going to buy insurance that's so expensive that it doesn't make sense to have it. right now what's happening is healthy young people are saying, this is way too expensive. the deductible is three times what it is in job-based plans. premiums are going up double digits. i'm not going to buy it, i'll get it when i'm sick. that's why it's in a death spiral. if you give everybody the ability to buy a basic plan of their own choosing because we're going to let the states set up free markets and health care and you have risk pools so that you cover that person with catastrophic illnesses, that stabilizes the market. that brings down prices. don't listen to me. cbo says it as well. that that will bring down prices and that's before tom price, the secretary of hhs, brings forward a lot of reforms that let the states go back and open up market based health care system. we really believe these two
combinations. this bill and what hhs can to to dee regulate the market will be very successful and helpful. >> let's talk about the politics of this if we can. you say you and the white house are on the exact same page. how can you say that with all the distancing that we see, that those close to president trump or supportive of him right now are doing about your legislation? his friend christopher ruddy says they're doing trump a disservice, breitbart attacks you day after day. you really think you and the white house are on the same page? >> i actually do. those web sites have been attacking me from day one. i'm used to this sort of thing. this is what you deal with in this job. >> they're trying to get the grassroots to oppose your bill. >> that is not where the trump white house is. the president is going to be talking about this tonight in i think tennessee. we're working hand in glove with the white house. we meet with him constantly daily. we've worked on this bill together. we jointly drafted this legislation house, senate and white house. so, we are working on this together. the president is all in on this. mike pence is coming to our
conference tonight to talk to it. the president has been bringing members of congress down to lobby them, to support this, help support this. he's been calling people. so, they are fully invested in this. whether or not people on the outside do this or that, that is not really something under our control. or something frankly we're worried about. vice-president is coming here tonight. tom price is coming the next day. the president is making phone calls. he's talking about this. he's traveling on this. we are all in this as a team together. >> i just gave a speech in michigan. he didn't do it once. >> he's going to do cafe standards. you're not going to make an announcement in cafe standards and step all over health care. that's what he's going to do in tennessee if i'm not mistaken. >> seems like a guy who can bring up more than one subject in a speech. let's talk about the house and senate and where the bill is. people say if it was brought up now it would not pass the house and it would not pass the senate. listen to senator rand paul from kentucky talking to cnn about the bill and president trump. >> paul ryan selling him a bill of goods that he didn't explain to the president that the
grassroots doesn't want what paul ryan is selling. >> i know you disagree with that, but let me ask you a more substantive question. what changes are you willing to make to this bill to help get it passed in the house and senate? >> frankly i think that is kind of an insulting remark to the president as if he doesn't know what he's doing. it makes it look like -- i find that kind of puzzling number one. number two, this plan the one we're passing, it's the one we ran on all of 2016. it is based upon the tom price bill which was seen as the conservative gold standard. it's a bill that had about a dozen freedom caucus and many more study conservatives co-sponsoring. so, this is what we ran on. this is long been conservative fiscal policy for health care. and, so where we are as we're in the legislative process, it's a four-committee process here in the house. we're working through that process. we're constantly getting feedback from our members. we're making, fine tuning, we're making changes fought bill,
keeping all of the main pieces intact. we're fine tuning, exactly what we're doing. >> give me an example of something you think can be improved. >> we want medicaid flexibility is a good example. giving states better chances at more flexibility. those are the kinds of things that members are constantly giving us feedback and we're constantly incorporating that feedback. as this legislation moves to the process. let me say something about senators. senators aren't helpless to the house. once the house is done with a bill, we send it to the senate and they take it from there. so, if a senator doesn't like a provision in this bill or this bill at all, the senator can amend the bill. they're going to have this thing, they call it vote a ram a where they have all these amendment votes on this bill when it goes over there in the senate. so, the senate will take this baton when we hand it to them and then they can do things to this bill. they can change this bill. they can amend this bill. that's the legislative process. so, as far as the house is concerned, we have consensus and we're fine tuning our consensus. going to the goal line with our president to get this done and
then it goes over to the senate and they start over there. >> you have consensus so if it came up in the house this afternoon, it would pass? >> it's not coming up this afternoon. it's going through the legislative process. that legislative process has not been finalized. so that's kind of a -- no offense, kind of a goofy question or faulty premise because this goes to four committees. we've gone to two so far. the two committees it went through, unanimous republican votes in each of those committees and those committees compromise a cross-section of our house majority. we feel we're in a good spot and making it even better by getting feedback from our members and working with the white house to make it better. but when we're done with the house it goes to the senate and we'll see what they do. >> you know you've heard from some of your members their concerns about the effect it would have on older americans, those who are older but not old enough to receive medicare, cbo said your health care plan would greatly increase costs for older americans. where it stands now according to cbo, a 26-year-old would pay
$1,700 for coverage in 2026 if obamacare remained because of subsidies that senior would get. under your plan cbo says that senior would pay more than eight times that $14,600 because of refundable tax credit you're proposing would not offset as much of the cost. and this is why as you know, aar p opposes your bill. >> two problems with that analysis. you said if obamacare remains. let's just say we do nothing. obamacare will go away because obamacare is in a death spiral. five states one insure left. over a thousand counties, one insurer left. humana just announced they are pulling out of obamacare because they, too, lost too much money. theds people don't get anything left. obamacare, this is a faulty comparison in my mind because it's comparing us to a law we know can't last and more importantly we're not making people biobama care plans. so, we're going to let people buy what they want to buy. so, that's the whole point. you're saying, oh, this tax credit only goes so far if you force people to buy an obamacare
plan -- we're not going to force people to buy an obamacare plan. that's point i'd make. >> do you dispute the fact costs will go up to $14,000 for a senior? >> our goal is to increase quality and have more choices and lower the costs. lets me say it this way. president obama promised if you like your plan you can keep it. that didn't come true. he then said it's going to lower premiums an average $2,500. it went the opposite direction. premiums went up something like an average of $3,000. so, that didn't work. we're not going to keep us on this escalator of higher costs in ray collapsing health care system. our whole entire plan is to lower the cost of that so you stretch your health care dollar further. that's the entire premise of our reforms. repeal this law, replace it with something that works so we actually get costs down. if you get costs down, you improve access to quality care. >> speaker ryan, let me ask you one unrelated question because the deadline to raise the u.s.
debt ceiling is tomorrow. is your party going to raise the limit by the deadline tomorrow? >> they don't need to raise it by the deadline tomorrow. the treasury department has quite a few things they can do which would last months to do certain moves to make sure that doesn't happen. i forget exactly the tool we use. we're going from russia to health care to debt limit. so, the treasury secretary told us we don't have to do it tomorrow. we have plenty of time to sort this out. >> will your party raise the debt limit? >> we will come to a conclusion to this. we're not going to have a default on our debt and we will figure out how best to deal with this issue when that moment arrives. that moment statutorily i guess, that lies tomorrow. steve mnuchin said we have plenty of time to figure this out. >> paul ryan, thank you for taking questions. >> thanks. >> that's it for "the lead." be sure to follow us at jake
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