tv CNN Newsroom With John Berman and Poppy Harlow CNN October 30, 2017 6:00am-7:00am PDT
now uniquely motivated to tell these guys what he knows. >> it's also a new trip wire. if the president ends the special counsel investigation, he is now, effect, trying to disrupt an actual ongoing criminal case. >> no word from the president yet this morning, though. we'll see what he says. >> gentlemen, thank you very much for helping us with all of this breaking news and all of your expertise. cnn's breaking news coverage continues with newsroom with poppy harlow and john berman. all right. a lot to get to this monday morning. good morning, i'm poppy harlhar. >> i'm john berman. major breaking news this morning. it has begun. former trump campaign chairman, paul manafort, surrendered to this morning. these are the first criminal charges in the investigation from special counsel robert mueller. who knows if they are the last. we also just learned the that key manafort associate rick gates has turned himself in. >> it began as an investigation into russian meddling in the
u.s. election, but it has clearly, clearly expanded far beyond that. we do not yet know the nature of the charges this morning. the indictment is still sealed at this hour. but that could become clear any moment, as it is unsealed. as for manafort, remember, this is the man who was in charge of all of the president's campaign for five months during key moments, including when he sealed the republican nomination. let's get straight our justice correspondent, evan perez, part of the team that broke this news this morning. evan, so much to get through with you, but just begin with what we know and what we're waiting for. >> well, poppy and john, we know that the -- that the two men, manafort and gates, were notified this morning that they were to turn themselves into the fbi and they have now done so. they're being processed right now, photographed, and then they're going to go over to the federal courthouse, where they're going to be read the charges for the first time. now, even at this hour, the charges have not been unsealed. as we reported on friday, the grand jury in washington had
returned these indictments, but we didn't know what the charges are and we still do not know. we do know, however, we do know that there's been some hints given to these men about what the nature of this investigation is. and in particular with manafort, we know that he's been told that he was likely to face charges related to tax and financial crimes. we know that bob mueller's team has been looking as far back as 2005, as part of this investigation. and we also know that the tax year 2010, which would have been filed in 2011, is of particular interest to them. again, these are part of conversations that his attorneys have had with the mueller investigators. the reason for me mentioning the 2010 tax year is that the statute of limitations on that tax year runs out this month. and that might be part of a clue here, as to why we're seeing these charges. the month ends tomorrow. so, perhaps prosecutors were trying to beat the clock. so one of the things we do know about this is that we don't
expect this to be the end. we expect fully that this is just the beginning of this. th that they're going to file these charges and they'll continue their investigation and perhaps add additional charges in a sup superceding indictment at some later day. we're looking again to see if there's any mention of russia or the campaign in these charges, when they're unsealed later today by a judge. that will, i think, really drive the conversation, as to what mueller and his investigators have been around -- have been doing these last five months. bob -- sorry, poppy and john? >> evan perez, thank you so much for that reporting. we'll let you get back to work right now, because this news is coming in fast and furious. let's go over to the federal courthouse right now in washington, d.c. this is where paul manafort and rick gates will be taken after they're processed at the fbi field office, where we believe they are right now. cnn's jessica schneider at the courthouse. what will happen to them? how will this process work out, jessica? >> reporter: john, we are
expecting paul manafort. he could be here at the federal courthouse at any time. since, of course, he turned himself in right around 8:00 a.m., we know that processing typically takes about an hour. he will be transported to the district courthouse here by federal authorities. that's when he'll have that arraignment, where he'll be presented with the charges against him. the judge will explain what he's facing and what the maximum criminal penalty is for those charges. of course, as evan mentioned, the indictment has not yet been sealed. it has not been made public just yet. but when paul manafort does appear in court and later rick gates on other charges. those charges will be made public. we will know about them. of course, paul manafort will go before the judge. the judge will explain those charges. and then we also know that there could be -- it's likely that paul manafort, at that point, will plead not guilty. there could also be some sort of discussion about future hearings, as well as any bail that would be set. of course, a lot of times in these white collar criminal
cases, these defendants are often released on their own recognizance. some limits might be set as to where he may go, a curfew, perhaps. so that is what will happen here in court. of course, this is an initial proceeding, an arraignment where those charges will be laid out. but we know that paul manafort will be here, perhaps soon this morning, when the courthouse opens. and that's when he will appear before a judge. those charges will finally be laid out. that indictment will be unsealed. and it will all be presented in public view before the court. of course, we do know that in addition, rick gates has turned himself in. the processing is also happening at the fbi field office, just a few blocks from here. rick gates will also be transported here to federal court, a little bit later this morning, as well. john and poppy? >> all right, jessica schneider at the courthouse. again, this could happen any minute, because he turned himself into the office about a hour ago. let's get to the white house. joe johns is there. any word? >> reporter: no word at all. nothing of substance, at least,
so far from the white house. the white house communications team was in a meeting when the news broke and that meeting has since broke up. we haven't heard anything. i did speak to one white house spokesman and asked if they were waiting to find out what the charges are. and was told, we may not have a response at all. that was later amended to, we don't know exactly when we will have a response. not even sources familiar with the thinking of the president's legal team have been weighing in, but, in the past, those sources familiar with the thinking of the legal team have said that while players like paul manafort, rick gates, and others may have come under scrutiny and may have even g gotten into legal trouble, that has never reached the level of the president himself, the oval office. and there's no reason to think, at least so far, that any of that thinking has changed. back to you. >> all right. joe johns for us at the white
house. keep us posted if we do hear anything from there. joining us now, jeffrey toobin and susan hennessey and shimon prokupecz. jeffrey? >> yes, sir? >> the president's campaign chair is in the fbi field office right now surrendering to the fbi. he will be charged with crimes today. >> that's a very big deal. and, you know, i -- seeing jessica in front of this courthouse, this is a very historic place in washington history. this is where the watergate defendants, the cover-up trial of h.r. halderman and john mitchell was. it was where i was privileged to be one of the prosecutors in the oliver north case. it's where hillary clinton testified in the grand jury in the white water case. and it's -- is someone saying that the indictments are out? >> yeah, we'll get -- >> shimon prokupecz just told us the indictments are out. we hope shimon are reading them right now. >> we'll give him a minute. >> you can finish your statement. >> this is an important moment in u.s. history. the fact that the campaign manager of a winning candidate for the president of the united states is indicted less than a
year after that president takes office suggests that we are in an important moment. doesn't mean he's guilty, doesn't mean rick gates is guilty. but the very fact that a grand jury has taken this action is a moment wer should pause to consider. >> shimon, we'll give you a moment to read through those indictments. let us know when you're ready. >> i can read some of the stuff. this has just now been released by the press offices of the special counsel. bear with me here. here's basically the first line. it says, paul manafort, 68, of alexandria, virginia, and richard gates, 45 of richmond, virginia, have been indicted by a federal grand jury on october 27th, in the district of columbia. the indictment, it goes on to say, contains 12 counts. conspiracy against the united states, conspiracy to launder money, unregistered agent of a foreign principle, false and misleading ferris statements, false statements and seven
counts of failure to file reports of foreign bank and financial accounts. so there we now know. we have some idea, at least, of what the charges are. and a lot of it is what we've been talking about. that it's going to have to deal with financial crimes. paul manafort's work and now rick gates' work overseas with ukraine and possibly other countries and this is what we've been reporting for some time now. that this is where the focus of some of the special counsel's investigation has been. >> all right. shimon, thank you. susan, let's bring you in. let's just explain to people who rick gates is. a lot of people know who paul manafort is, because he chaired the president's campaign. rick gates is someone -- a political consultant who has been by manafort's side for decades, who worked along with him on the trump campaign, even beyond paul manafort. when paul manafort stepped down, rick gates, susan, as you know, kept working with the president on the inaugural committee and then raising $25 million for a big pac that supports the president, until april when he
was ousted because of concerns on these ukraine dealings. what are your thoughts this morning? >> right, so one of the things we've seen sort of as the president's tactics in the past is wherever bad news comes out about individuals sort of related to him, he tries to distance himself pretty quickly, right? they weren't a big part of the team. steve bannon came on very late. so what's going to be relevant here, of course, is how strongly they try to distance themselves from paul manafort. that's going to be difficult, considering his prominent role in the campaign. and then how do they try to distance themselves from rick gates? what's going to be hard about rick gates, as you mentioned, is that he actually stayed on, was part of the inaugural committee. so that's going to make it far more challenging for the trump team to say, hey, look, we didn't know anything about any of the suspicions around these people. as soon as we found out, they were sort of bit players. we pushed them out, and essentially, their behavior doesn't reflect on us and doesn't reflect on our judgment. >> jeffrey, when shimon was reading the 12 counts, the first one was conspiracy against the united states. shimon, was that accurate?
because we're just piecing through this document right now. >> yeah, that is accurate, and that's what the press release says. i now have a copy of the indictment so i'm going through it to see exactly what that means, but jeffrey may have a better idea. >> so am i. it is -- it relates to tax offenses, among other things. but i mean, i think what's striking, initially. first of all, this is a 31-page indictment. that's a very long indictment. indictments are often much shorter than this. and it deals with financial dealings, primarily, but not exclusively. and i think it mostly deals with manafort and gates' personal finances, money laundering, using the money they got from the ukraine to hide it from the tax authorities, not to report it properly. that's my initial impression. but i have to admit, i'm still just going through it and i haven't gotten to the end. it's long. >> so, a few things here.
susan, you know, jeffrey rightly brings up ukraine. and we know that manafort and gates worked for ukraine for about a decade. worked for victor yanukovych's government, obviously, friendly with the putin regime until he was ousted a few years ago. remember, in the last year or so, a ledger, a hand-written ledger was found with over $12 million in payments that was supposedly from the yanukovych regime to manafort. manafort said that was all made-up. why is this tied to this? maybe, because evan perez was reporting earlier, 2010, that tax year, when he was also working for the ukraine yian government, is of key interest to investigators right now. >> right. so one of the things that's sort of important to keep in mind, even once we've seen the indictment, is the nature of what a tax charge might mean. so the government often uses tax charges as a way to indict someone. and so it could be that they're indicting paul manafort for failure to pay income on -- failure to pay taxes on legitimate income, right. so sort of, there's nothing
wrong with the original source of the income and he didn't pay taxes and that's where the criminal activity comes in. it's also possible that the government is using tax or fraud charges in order to go after illegitimate sources of income. so, perhaps it's too difficult to prove sort of the more complex money laundering or other charges related to where the source of that income might have been. so instead they say, look, we have reason to believe that you have this illicit income. we know you didn't pay taxes and we can prove that element of it. so they start there. so even though we're starting to get the first concrete information in this indictment, there's still a lot of open questions related to, what is the underlying conduct here? and really, the full scope of that 31 pages. and then information that's going to trickle out over the next sort of days and weeks and hours. >> let me read you something from page one right now and there are 31. we're piecing through it right now. manafort and gates generated tens of must haillions of dolla income in order to hide payments
from ukraine authorities from approximately 2006 through at least 2016. so this went up through the election year. manafort and gates laundered the money through scores of u.s. informal corporations, partnerships, and percebank acc. >> a very significant point, two points, the trump campaign is not mentioned in this indictment. that's a very important point. and it is certainly something you will hear from the president's supporters, and i think it's a very valid point. it does not include any reference to his work on the trump campaign. however, it also does include statements that he made during the time that he was the chair of the trump campaign. so, that, i think, is highly significant. that the -- that robert mueller is allege iing that paul manafo was committing crimes, while he was the campaign chairman of the trump campaign. >> and jeffrey, again, it does
not preclude the possibility that this 12-count indictment will not be used to try to get information about the trump campaign. >> absolutely. and, you know, one thing, you know, people need to know about the way prosecutions work is that just because an indictment has been filed, doesn't mean that that's the only indictment that will be filed. there's something called a superceding indictment, where you can add charges against the same defendant. so, we are not at the end of the process, by any means. >> and most experts would say, really, at the beginning. and the timing here, tomorrow, as evan reported, the date runs out for some of these tax issues to be charged. that's tomorrow. the end of the month. so they had to get some of this out. as you're saying, there could be another -- there could be more added to this. >> there could be -- there could be more added. but, believe me, this is, this is a bad day for paul manafort and rick gates. even if this is all the charges that they face. i mean, these are 12 very
serious felonies with very heavy penalties associated with them. >> so, it turns out, we're hearing that rick gates, paul manafort, will be in court at 1:30 p.m. eastern today. let me just keep reading more of what john read. this is more of the indictment. in furtherance of the scheme, manafort and gates funneled millions of dollars to foreign companies and bank accounts opened by them and their accomplices in nomny names and foreign countries. remember, some members of the intelligence committee on the house side went to cypress more than once, including representative quigley, looking for answers. >> susan hennessey, i want to bring you in here. talk to me about how this investigation works. what this tells you about what robert mueller and his team are doing, given the information that evan perez reported before, that there was a reason to try to get this done before the close of the month. because of the statute of limitation on some of the tax
issues here. >> right, so it's been difficult to sort of opine on mueller's strategy. his team has played it really close to the chest. one thing that you might sort of speculate is that he's bringing these charges early in an attempt to mount some pressure on actors like manafort and gates in order to incentivize them to flip. to give them additional information that's going to allow him to bring further charges. that's sort of one possibility. the other possibility is that, you know, they were up against a clock and they needed to file these charges. they thought that they had a case that they could prove beyond a reasonable doubt in court. and so they thought this was the appropriate moment to indict. the other thing is that those aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, right? it could be that while they were up against a time clock here, they wanted to do the indictment, and oh, by the way, that might pay off sort of significant dividends, regarding the broader sort of russia investigation. certainly, paul manafort is a person who was right at the center of all of this. right? we know that me participated in some of the trump tower meetings.
he is sort of the one common denominator in all of these various suspicious connections with russia. so he's certainly an individual that has a tremendous amount of information in his head, that's going to be valuable to mueller's team. and the question now is, how he decides to sort of respond to these charges. is he going to plead guilty in an attempt to have a cooperation deal? is he going to play the long game and maybe see if president trump is willing to pardon him? sort of something in between? and so what's going to be interesting here is less so sort of mueller's strategy at this point, and more manafort and his defense team. >> and again, you brought up something that's interesting. paul manafort was in that meeting in trump tower with donald trump jr. and the russian lawyer who was there with the promise to donald trump jr. that she was bringing information from the russian government about hillary clinton hillary clinton. could be completely disconnected. we may never have a connection between these charges against paul manafort and that, but interesting that he was sitting at the table for that meeting. >> shimon, as you're going through this and so are we,
right now. to jeffrey's point of bringing up -- it does not mention the trump campaign. however, it does mention statements that paul manafort made during the five months he was chairing the campaign. do you know, specifically, what some of those are? >> no, i don't know if they're contained in the indictment and i haven't seen them yet. the other thing i wanted to bring up, poppy and john, and maybe this is a question for jeffrey, there's a fara violation here. and we've all been reporting on how rare it is for the u.s. government to bring charges against someone on fara violations. usually, it's something that they let you go back and kind of correct and you can file late or register late. so i'm wondering what's going to be made of that by some of the defense attorneys here. and also just the scope of this. why is it that the special counsel's team started investigating this? you know, we know, as evan perez has been reporting and has reported, that paul manafort has previously been under investigation by the fbi for his dealings with ukraine,
yanukovych, and the ukraine deals that were ongoing there. and for a time, at least we were told several months ago, the fbi and the department of justice did not think they had enough to bring charges in connection with that. so what's changed? and why now did the special counsel team come in and decide, you know what? we do have enough to bring charges here? that's going to be an interesting question as well as we go forward. >> the issue just to answer your question about why, forara is a law regarding as to when and whether you have to register as an agent of a foreign government. usually it is not charged criminally if you make a mistake on one of your forms. the difference is what makes it criminal is the issue of intent. if you make a mistake, a good faith mistake, it's not criminal. but if the government can prove that you intentionally lie, it can be criminal. if i can just make one more point about sort of big picture
here, this is a very complicated indictment. this is never going to get to trial very quickly. i think this is six months, at least, from a trial, if there is a trial, at all. that means the mueller investigation is guaranteed to go into, well into 2018 and anyone who hoped or worried that the mueller investigation was going to close up shop by the end of 2017, this guarantees that is far, far from the case. >> and to your point about intent, that's point three in this indictment. it says that manafort and gates concealed from the united states their work as agents, concealed. not just made a mistake. >> all right, guys. we obviously have a ton to discuss. we are poring through this major indictment right now and the breaking news this morning. much more ahead. when did you see the sign? when i needed to create a better visitor experience. improve our workflow.
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all right. back with our breaking news. you're watching video from just earlier this morning. paul manafort, the former campaign chair of the trump campaign and his associate for decades, rick gates, walking into the fbi headquarters about to head, in a little bit, to the courthouse after being charged with 12 different counts. back with us, our panel. jeffrey toobin, to you as we read through this. point 38 on page 23 of this 31-page indictment is significant. here's what it reads. from in or about 2006 to 2017, paul manafort and rick gates, together with others, knowingly and intentionally conspired to defraud the united states by impeding, impairing, obstructing, and defeating the lawful government functions of a government agency, namely the department of justice, the department of treasury, and to commit offenses against the united states. that time period -- >> yeah, just to translate that legalese into english, what it means is between 2006 and 2017,
including the time when he was campaign chairman of the trump campaign, he, manafort, gates, together with others -- >> together with others. >> together with others. i mean, that is a very pregnant question, about who are the "others," that they will allege, are the other unindicted co-conspirators in this case, conspired to defraud the united states. so, you know, you have the campaign chairman and a senior member of the campaign charged with defrauding the united states at precisely the time that he is the chairman of the campaign, the successful campaign, of donald trump. >> go ahead. >> the words here are "impeding, impairing, destructing, and defeating the lawful government function of government agencies and the department of justice and the department of treasury." and susan hennessey, rick gates didn't leave the campaign when manafort left in august of 2016. he stayed on through the fall. he then worked for the
transition. he then worked for a pac that lobbied on behalf or worked on behalf, i should say, of the administration before he was pushed out of that. the president of the united states, donald trump, we know he talked to paul manafort through the beginning of this year while this indictment suggests they were working to defraud and obstruct justice. that has got to be a problem at a certain level for the administration. >> well, i think it certainly is. one thing to sort of keep in mind is the scope of mueller's investigation, right? so it's not just sort of russian collusion or russian interference and potential campaign collusion. amidst anything that are rising out of that investigation. so it means as mueller is sort of going about conducting that investigation, anything else that he comes upon, including sort of prior financial crimes and including criminal activity, whenever an individual does something that violates the law of the united states, in trying to obstruct his investigation or lying to federal investigators. so that is all sort of fair game within the sort of proper scope of the mueller investigation.
so we might hear some things this morning about, oah, this i a witch hunt, this is proof of mueller having exceeded his scope. this is the kind of behavior and activity that is squarely within sort of that mandate that the deputy attorney general, rod rosenstein, had given mueller in the first instance. >> we also know that rick gates was at the white house several times this year, okay? and on top of that, we're just getting some reaction from our jim acosta's reporting, who of course is our senior white house reporter, of someone familiar with the situation. a source close to the white house, let me read it to you, that source saying, quote, today has zero to do with the white house. again, the white house is messaging before an initial statement that today has zero to do with the wlohite house. the problem with that argument, manafort and the president kept talking, far beyond after he left, until their own lawyers said, you have to keep talking. and these dates, 2006 to 2017, that's beyond his work with ukraine. >> right.
and, you know, it -- i do think it's important to point out, in fairness to what the white house is saying, is that the individual crimes charged, the making a false statements to the department of justice, the making of false statements to the treasury department do not refer at all to the trump campaign. however, he is -- both manafort and gates are charged with a conspiracy, together with others, unnamed, to defraud the united states, a conspiracy that took place while manafort was the campaign chairman for donald trump, while gates was working for donald trump. and that's a problem. and what contacts manafort and gates had with the trump campaign and the trump white house, after the president was inaugurated, something that's going to be of great interest to robert mueller and, i suspect, of great interest to us as well.
>> that white house talking point is telling. they are grasping on to something that is, in fact, true, that the white house not mention inside this 12-count indictment. doesn't have -- >> that's a very fair point. >> doesn't have to do directly with campaign matters, at least not yet. shimon prokupecz, look, we know that paul manafort has had bob mueller on him hard for the last several months. including that no-knock raid on his house. someone else who has been, you know, questioned extensively or at least probed extensively, is michael flynn, the former national security adviser right now. where else has robert mueller's team been looking to give us a sense of where they might head next? >> well, it's very hard to tell right, really, where they might head next. and you almost wonder if the president had not fired the fbi director, where we would be right now. and would we even -- you know, we wouldn't have a special counsel and perhaps maybe all of this would be over now. but, obviously, the investigation by bob mueller has expanded into other parts of --
into other parts. so we know that they have been looked at some of the special counsel's been looking at some of the facebook stuff and some of the twitter stuff. we know that other people close to the campaign and at one point, close to the president, have been in and have been interviewed by the special counsel. they're not under investigation, like the former chief of staff of reince priebus. the former spokesperson at the white house press secretary, sean spicer. those people have been in there, have been interviewed, and that we believe has more to do with the investigation into the firing of the former fbi director. and there may be other people who have been there, that we just don't know yet. the grand jury proceeding that has been going on, was sort of used to bring in people who were not willing to come in and cooperate with special counsel. so we did see instances where witnesses were brought in before the grand jury, because we were told, they were not cooperating
with the special counsel, so he would bring them in and seat them before the grand jury. and ask questions. and other than really some of those people, we really don't have a window into where things stand now, with this investigation. all we know is, obviously, that it's just not over and it's going to keep going until some other questions can be answered. >> okay. guys, stay with us. there's a lot more to get through. we're not through all 31 pages yet, but we are getting some color from inside of the white house. our jeff zeleny is reporting that the white house lawyers are sitting down with the president this morning to talk about all of this. the charges against manafort and gates. no official statement yet from the white house. much more when we get back. how much money do you think you'll need in retirement? then we found out how many years that money would last them. how long do you think we'll keep -- oooooohhh! you stopped! you're gonna leave me back here at year 9? how did this happen? it turned out, a lot of people fell short, of even the average length of retirement.
against paul manafort, the former campaign chair for president donald trump, also rick gates who worked in the campaign, 12 counts. some of them up on the screen right now. a huge day for the investigation of special counsel robert mueller, and not to mention, the white house. joining us now amy barnes and bee ana goldryga. we know the president is behind doors talking about something. >> right. he's very quiet. he hasn't said anything since a teet this morning. this is a big moment. when you look at his agenda this week, he's trying to move along his tax legislation. he's trying to put some points on the board and he hasn't been able to do that so far. and when you think about republicans and what they need going into next year, they desperately need this. this is really bad timing for him. i know the white house is trying to distance it and say, you know, this is all about manafort and he was only on the campaign for three months, but, you know,
gates was also on the campaign for a long time and so this actually reflects poorly, i think, on the white house. >> you could also say that they were trying to cushion the blow. over the past weekend, you've seen ty cobb, the president's lawyer speaking out to "the new york times," to other publications, sort of distancing the administration, the president from paul manafort's acknowledging that this could very well come down the pike and say, the president wishing him well, but he wasn't that involved with the campaign. we know that's not true. >> the problem with that is just the facts. i should note that the trump campaign, the president nomination knot mentioned anywhere in these 31 pages. but alex, paul manafort chaired the campaign for five months. the two men, the president and manafort kept talking for months beyond that until their respective lawyers demanded they stop and rick gates stayed on, raised millions of dollars for the president, helped chair the inaugural committee until his concerns about his work in ukraine were too much and he was pushed out of that super pac. so those are just the facts. doesn't the white house have to
grandpa grapple with that and address that in their response? >> they probably do. and on top of everything you just listed which was pretty comprehensive, they might have to address why paul manafort was hired in the first place, when nearly every issue mentioned in this indictment was at least widely suspected about paul manafort for years. that he's somebody who at the time he was hired by the trump campaign was seen as someone who had been involved in some pretty shady stuff in ukraine. and who seemed to live a lavish lifestyle beyond his reported means. so this is not stuff that should catch anyone at the white house by surprise. and it's not something that should catch president trump or thinking back on his thought process and hiring process as candidate trump, by surprise, either. >> again, we are waiting to hear from the president and his staff directly. the early word from our reporting, jim acosta, jeff zeleny, the white house pleased it doesn't touch them directly. but this could just be the beginning. annie, one of the things that will be interesting, not just the white house response, but
the republican reaction to the white house response. how will republicans deal with this? now, sean duffy, congressman was on "new day" this morning, and he continued to talk about hillary clinton. he continued to talk about the fact that the focus should be somewhere else, even now that we have charges. >> that's the thing. i've heard from numerous sources that president trump has been stewing for months. he's been saying, why isn't the focus on hillary clinton a little bit more? and so this actually, last week's news that they're hoping up these, you know, talking to more and more people and opening up these inquiries on hillary clinton, is sort of being pushed by the white house. he's been frustrated. and i think, i think the white house wants to continue that narrative. and they're happy that they haven't been mentioned. but like i said earlier, i think this does reflect poorly and i think they need to address it. and it's going to loom large over the white house and continue so in the coming months. >> we've seen bianna, in the past few days, calls growing a little louder from murdoch publications, "the wall street
journal," the "new york post," and from some republicans for mueller to resign. this is after so many republicans like newt gingrich and chris christie were glowing in their appraise of him after he was named special counsel, now they're saying that he should resign. >> after cnn broke the news friday this was coming, there was speculation whether trump would order a saturday night massacre and fire mueller over the weekend. now it's much harder to classify this as fake news now that these indictments are out there and they exist. the question is, what happens going forward? i think the president anticipated this had happened. i think we all did, when the police were walking out with suits and raided paul manafort's house? what were they looking for, clearly more evidence along this line. but it will be interesting to see if the president continues down the hillary clinton narrative. imagine if this was john podesta, republicans would have been outraged, i imagine. now we're not hearing very much. >> there is a lot of talk in the
ability i've had to scan these 31 pages of lobbying firms "a" and "b" that were hired by manafort and rick gates. it's not impossible that that is the me podesta group over time. it's not impossible there is a connection here. >> you're hearing, as you said, poppy, from murdoch publications that he's got to go. you're not hearing the that from senior republicans or even many junior republicans in washington. the official republican party seems to be taking a sort of "hide under our desk" approach to the indictment so far. that's not going to be a sustainable pose over the course of the week. >> but if i could just say, as amy pointed out, regardless of how the white house paints the picture right now and the president's reaction, this is not good news for an administration that, a, awants o finally embrace a tax plan that is supposed to be unveiled this week, a fed chair announcement is supposed to take place this week. the president is leaving for what's loomed as his largest and most important foreign policy trip at the end of this week.
all of this a traditional administration would be dealing with right now, not a federal indictment. >> can we give you a dramatic reading. you got to do the last one. can i do this one? this is from sara murray, another one of our terrific white house reporters. we keep on getting intel from inside the west wing. a source close to the white house tells sara murray that the bad behavior of manafort/gates has little to do with the trump campaign or russia investigation. this is a quote. these guys were bad guys when they started. they were bad guys when they left. the indictment has nothing to do with any relationship to russia. and then as for the president, he takes the information on its pha face and it has nothing to do with him. here's the key. this person says the president is not planning to try to fire robert mueller. alex? >> that's kind of extraordinary that the best white house response at this point is to acknowledge that the president hired some really bad guys, right? that those are their words, not, y you know, anyone else on the outside editorializing or criticizing. but look, i think in terms of the larger trajectory of the mueller investigation and a conversation about the mueller
investigation, this makes it awfully difficult to sideline or fire a special prosecutor once there are actual prosecutions in play. you would have to make the case that somehow mueller had errored in indicting manafort and rick gates. >> did she say this president has always been a bad guy? >> bad guy when they started, bad guy when they left. which made to whoever goes the point -- >> why would he be your campaign chairman? the one who points your vp? >> that was a source within the west wing, not the president saying that. >> but that's the thinking there. let me ask you this, bianna, a white house source saying on the indictment specifically, this had nothing to do with anything about russia. this is about manafort and his time when he was working for ukraine, victor van yanukovych, fled to russia. >> like we've seen with the ties with another billionaire and oligarch who at one point was
not allowed to have a visa to come to the u.s. as well. the president can say this was a one-off or what not, but the bigger question is are we going to see mueller go into the president's finances dating years back. that's something people are questioning, were there russian ties there, were there relations with russian businessman for the president. the president said that was a red line at one point. we'll see if he reacts. >> amy, not collusion. this wasn't russian collusion. i can hear that as something we hear, you know, any minute now coming from republicans on capitol hill. >> right. no, i mean, and obviously, the white house is going to continue to push this, as sarah pointed out. they're going to continue to say, oh, these guys aren't our guys. but the fact of the matter is, this was a guy who was his campaign chairman. this is someone else, rick gates, who worked on the campaign. it's not a good day for the white house. and as bianna pointed out earlier, he's about to embark on this huge trip, he has a huge week ahead of him. and all he can do now is focus on this. >> in some ways, that's a huge opportunity for the president, right? that the typical presidential damage control playbook in situations like this is to get
out in the country, get out across the world, show you're doing the people's business. show that you're engaged in important stuff that's more important than whatever the legal issues or scandal issues are back in washington. and if the president can control himself and focus on that, that's the opportunity. >> maybe! >> i mean, you know, that's the lesson from clinton, from bush 43. will he do it. no tweets yet. >> and we're looking to see if the president's spokesman, sarah sanders, comes out and says something out loud. she is planning on briefing later today. alex, amy, bianna, thanks so much for being us. breaking news, the first charges in the russian investigation. we're waiting to see paul manafort and rick gates as they head over to the federal courthouse in washington, d.c. will they speak? will they address the press on their way? stay with us. tflix on us. get 4 unlimited lines for just $40 bucks each.
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all right. the breaking news this morning. former campaign chair for president trump paul manafort and associate rick gates have turned themselves in. they've surrendered. they're being processed by the fbi. i'm holding up a 12-count indictment against these two men for charges ranging from lying and money laundering, all sorts of stuff over a long period of time. >> including conspiracy against the united states. a lot to get to. let's bring in our guests. david, to you. the time period, what's included in this indictment that spans 11 skr critical years, it is the time that manafort worked for the
trump team. >> it is important to remind everyone at the time at which rick gates and paul manafort were running the trump campaign, donald trump had just secured the nomination. then there was this extensional threat from never trumpers in the republican party to try to deny him the nomination in cleveland at the convention. the people in charge of that effort of squashing that, paul manafort and rick gates. these were bad guys when they came in and bad guys when they go out, that means that donald trump brought in what one is describing as bad guys to deal with a threat to his nomination as the republican nominee for president and this is at the same time as donald trump jr. meeting in june of 2016 with the russian lawyer who was clearly there to deliver opposition research to harm hillary clinton and help donald trump and you recall that paul manafort was part of that meeting because he was so central to what the campaign was doing. so while the indictment today
may not say russia or collusion or trump campaign, and it certainly doesn't and we'll hear that as a big talking point from the white house and republicans throughout the day. i think we'd be foolish to think this will never touch russia when you look at paul manafort's actions at the time he was running the campaign. >> you have written extensively on robert mueller. in my hands is this 12-count indictment which is incredibly complicated. incredibly detailed. i'm not sure if you've had a chance to go through the finer print. what does this tell you about how this man is conducting the investigation right now? >> so this is almost exactly the indictment that you would expect first out of the gate with bob mueller. it is complicated, but it's also incredibly kpree hencicomprehen. it's in written documents, traceable transactions. there's not a lot here that speaks to what someone might have said.
these are hard black and white details in writing, in financial transactions and i think that one of the ways that we should think about this indictment today is this is 12 reasons why paul manafort should start having some long conversations with bob mueller's investigative team. >> the time period here if you look at one of the counts or the end count 38 between 2006, 2017, it talks about manafort and gates conspireing to defraud the united states. that's while he was, manafort, chairing the campaign during a critical point in time, of course, the point when the president sealed the republican nomination. >> i haven't gotten to that count yet. is that perhaps tied to not properly disclosing work as being, you know, on behalf of a foreign agent and therefore is that part of the conspiracy that
they're saying against the united states there. unregulated agent of a foreign principal. that is wow. you are right to note. this was going on while -- some of this was going on while he was at the helm of the trump campaign. you recall when they fired him at that time and got rid of him, eric trump was on tv talking about how much they believed paul manafort's other work to be a total distraction from the campaign. >> you know, note the fbi doesn't go after people, it goes after an organization. when you go after a pyramid, you start at the bottom. not at the top. this is paul manafort campaign chair manager and not head of an organization. >> if you look at the charges, they have nothing to do with the
core of question of russia and collusion and these are sort of long standing business deals. one of the things that stands out in this indictment is this is not a couple of paperwork errors. so, you know, why did paul manafort join this campaign in the first place? >> this is knowingly, intentionally, those are words used throughout this indictment. gentlemen, thank you both very much. david, we know you have a lot of work to get to as our political director on this day. thank you. nice to have you, as well, garrett. we appreciate it. >> paul manafort and rick gates being processed by the fbi at the field office. then they will head to this building. the federal courthouse in washington d.c. there will be hearings there. we're watching every move. we'll bring you the very latest next. hi. i'm the one clocking in... when you're clocking out. sensing your every move and automatically adjusting to help you stay effortlessly comfortable. there.
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