tv CNN Tonight With Don Lemon CNN April 17, 2018 8:00pm-9:00pm PDT
this is "cnn tonight." i'm don lemon. it is 11:00 p.m. here on the east coast. live with all the breaking news. president trump ordering flags to fly at half staff in memory of barbara bush, the former first lady. the matriarch dead at the age of 92. am wife of one president, the mother of another. we're going to have more on her life in a moment, plus my conversation with the ceo of starbucks. saying his heart sank when he saw that video, two black men being arrested and i want you to listen to what else he tells me
tonight. >> you know, it's been an emotional experience, and spending these three days on the ground and sitting across from these young men and really trying to understand how this could happen in today's society in starbucks, in a starbucks. >> you don't want to miss that. that's coming up. i want to bring in now cnn political analyst john ablon, a white house staffer for president george w. bush and also presidential historian douglas brinkly. margaret, i want to ask you about the passing of the first lady barbara bush. >> i was deeply saddened. i as any american citizen grew up with her as a thirst lady when i was a young person, a young girl. and i had the privilege of
working the white house with her son and working for the bush family. and she was a great matriarch as you said of a great american political dynasty. andiest and want to underline this was a family who up held public service and the legacy of serving the public in the noblest sense. they truly sacrificed personally in order to offer their best to the public. and she also represented in an era where women were wives and were homemakers, how a woman could have an identity and be strong and be a stalwart homemaker and family person and still have her own identity and sense of self and contributions. her contributions to literacy are long lasting. >> they raised a pillion dollars for charity and cancer and so on. and think about what she did for
aides in africa. the family, walked the walk. >> in terms of american history take a step back. it's her and abigail addles as wives and mothers of presidents. more than that what margaret is saying is she and the bush family set a tone of a reminder of what feels like a bygone era where decency and honor and a sense of humor could exist in pall in a way that appealed cross partisan lines. i think we could learn a lot to try to inspire us going forward as well. so god bless her and her family. >> compare that with the partnerships we are experiencing right now. the partisanships, i should say, we're experiencing right now. >> oh, boy, it's night and day. barbara bush was part of that world war ii generation of love of country but also in duty and
honor but also civility. barbara bush, if you did an event for her, i once did a literacy event for her on rosa parks and immediately got a nice note from her coming afterwards. she did that a thousand times over. i think she's our most popular first lady, you know, along with michelle obama in recent times. there's no dents in her armor. everybody liked her, and it's because of her candor, her wicked sense of humor, her about to be matriarchal with her family. but she didn't suffer lightly, but her heart was gigantic. i hope donald trump and milania do come to texas a and m and go to the library to be a symbol of
continuity instead of being acrimonious and bickering. >> well said. well put, doug. thank you. i need to turn now to the news out of the white house tonight. margaret, this question is for you. we're told the president is apcleptic over the comey investigation and raid, sources saying he's fixated more than anything else. >> michael cohen has been incredibly loyal to him. he's part of his presidentially circle and knows almost everything about how the trump organization works. he's sort of an extended member of the trump family. so of course he feels it's a violation against him as much as his personal lawyer. that's just where you start. that's just a starting point. >> we've got ten minutes. >> panic in the white house. >> so, john, sources telling cnn he's concerned because the feds told cohen everything he did.
>> the president really thought of michael cohen as an extension of the family and he wasn't holding back in those communications. that means that all those communications there may be records of things where if michael cohen is the keeper of those secrets, those secrets could be accessed by the justice department and by the public by the southern district of new york. so it's happening outside the mueller investigation even as it occurs under the umbrella of trump's own justice department. >> i also want to talk about this, the cozy relationship because this has become part of the cohen thing, too. the cozy relationship between fox news and shawn hannity as it came out that shawn hannity is the mystery third client of attorney michael cohen. it was a surprise to fox news. they put out a statement saying fox news was unaware with the former relationship with michael cohen and was surprised by the announcement yesterday.
we have reviewed and matter and spoken to shawn and he continues to have our full support. it looks like it's business as usual for fox news. but this is something. shawn hannity interviewed the legendary ted copal last year for cbs and here's what he said to shawn. >> we have to give some credit to the american people that they're somewhat intelligent and that they know the difference between an opinion show and a news show. you're cynical. you think we're bad for america, you think i'm bad for america? >> i think in the long haul you -- >> that's sad. >> you know why because you're very good at what you do and you have -- you have attracted a significantly more -- let me finish the sentence. >> i'm listening. >> you have attracted people who
are determined that ideology is more important than facts. >> yeah, boom. it was obviously ted copal interviewing shawn hannity. >> it's tribalism above politics, above ideas, above principle. and we find out there's an incredibly deep relationship, beyond a personal relationship between the president and shawn00ty that goes beyond talking points. >> as someone who works at fox news for four years before i came to cnn, i was on-air at fox news, on shawn hannity show on fox news. and he has a prime time or late night show on fox news. he doesn't claim to be a newsperson or journalist. we always know he has an opinion -- hold on. so all these people say you have to have a disclaimer. so his base and his audience is
not upset they didn't get that disclaimer. in fact, they demand that they -- they think higher of him that he is so close with the president and so close with michael cohen because they're all part of the same team. and the stuff you're talking about ideology or news -- >> do you think the average person knows that shawn hannity his opinion -- >> if you ask the fox news viewer 100% likes what he's saying, and they expect that he's close with michael cohen or trump. i understand what news is and what journalistic standards are. that's not what fox news is employing to hannity for. >> during, what do you think? >> i get margaret's point, but also i heard you last night, don, on this topic. and i don't think it would have cost shawn hannity a whole lot to have told his viewers
sometimes i consult with michael cohen. what would that have cost him? about 15 seconds on the air on one of his broadcasts. so it did seem like he was covering that up and makes him look disingenuous and very kind of cynical and self-centered at this point. and he's still now taking a bravado take on it all, but i think he owed the public airways that bit of knowledge. >> so let's put this in perspective here. let's take the last white house. president obama had an attorney that was under federal investigation, and i don't know neeka bruzinsky or rachel maddow, someone was a client and did not reveal that they were a client, did not disclose that. how do you think shawn would
respond? >> i think apicocleptic is -- what we're talking about, this is situational ethics and dijon mustard therefore proving something. this is every step of the way if you re-create the scandals of this administration and put hillary clinton's name on there or barack obama's name on there it would be a fever swamp of outrage, but instead in situational ethics, it played the victim card and that just shows how shallow the principles are. it's not about principles. it's about bipartisan and polarizing the nation. >> we're still not clear on what the exact relationship is. >> i'm going to be interested if there are sponsors that pull from shawn hannity's show. i think that would be the way this gets punished.
if hannity is unable to tell viewers in america i didn't mention i have a relationship with cohen you may get sponsors whasay we don't want to be part of the show because hannity is going to be tied up with this for months to come and he doesn't have a good defensive -- >> to margaret's point the people who buy ads they already know. >> if you don't, if you just assume it's opinion editorial, then what is the purpose of -- >> margaret, i get your point. i think you're right. but don't you think he blurs the line all the time and who was on before him, tucker -- >> what's his name? >> i'm trying to figure out the schedule because i used to watch fox all the time. >> of course they blur the lines. >> they are opinion editorial, and they pretend like it's a news show but they give their
opinion. >> the president seems to trust it more than he does his own intelligence briefing. >> okay, we're not going to win the debate about whether fox news is news. i think we all agree fox news is not news. >> i've got to go. but i love that saying that something is named news -- it's called fox news. thanks, doug, thank margaret. i can't believe you two are married. yes, i can. you bicker like you're married. when we come back stormy daniels' attorney is here, and i'm going to ask him about the latest court filings tonight from the president and michael cohen. jeff and susan are heading into retirement.
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are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. ready for a new chapter? talk to your rheumatologist about humira. this is humira at work. attorneys for the president and his lawyer michael cohen have filed new paperwork responding to an objection by stormy daniels' attorney over their attempt to delay the lawsuit moving forward. trump's and cohen's attorneys citing the criminal investigation of cohen in manhattan as the reason the lawsuit should be delayed. it could potentially violate cohen's fifth amendment rights. stormy daniels' attorney responding to that. by the way, welcome. >> thank you. don, this is more of the same. i mean it's all about delay at this point in time. yesterday they saw it to delay the criminal investigation, the
review of the documents here in new york. clearly they want to do everything they can to obstruct and slow down this process, and we're going to continue to fight to do just the opposite. >> so you think they're trying to delay, delay, delay? >> they want to do everything in their power to prevent us from taking a deposition of michael cohen and the president. you know, i think it's been pretty clear our position has been clear, we're going to try to advance this as much as we possibly can. >> you and your client stormy daniels released a sketch today of the man who you say threatened the adult film star. you even offer an award of $100,000 to anyone who had information to catch the perpetrator. why did you take so long to release the sketch? >> we had a request come in
asking us to hold off on that. we honored that request. but i have an amendment tonight on your show and i'm going to make an anonce now. it's not $100. it's $131,000. to information leading to the identity of this individual, this thug that threatened -- >> the same amount the mda -- >> no, it's a thousand dollars more. >> so do you have any leads on who the person might be? >> we've narrowed the field it a handful of people it may be, but we want to make absolutely sure as to who this is before we make an announcement, and we're hope fal that the public is going to come forward with information that will allow us to make an absolutely positive i.d. if individuals have information leading to this or that would help us we ask them to e-mail it to us at firstname.lastname@example.org.
>> do you have any evidence to back that up? >> we have a substantial believe in that. we do have some evidence. i don't want to get into the details of that. this vej cindividual could haveh from only one of three places. either my client arranged for him to threaten herself, which makes no sense. the times magazine sent someone to threaten her related to an article they wanted to print. that makes no sense. or it came from michael cohen or someone affiliated with the trump organization. >> you guys were on the view earlier today. story was questioned why she didn't go to the police immediately after this alleged event took place. this was her response. >> i would have gone to police and said, okay, a man approached
me, and the very next question the detective would have asked me, why did someone tell you to leave mr. trump alone, and i would have had to answer that question and police reports are public record yaknow that for a fact, i had sex with donald trump. >> so she fears for her safety the way she describes it. why didn't that outweigh her concerns? >> well, i think it was actually cut off. she went onto say one of the reasons she did not state at the time was that her husband was not aware of what happened in her prior life, if you will, with mr. trump, and she didn't want him to learn it by way of this police report. i think it makes perfect sense and she'd a very credible woman. i think every time when he speaks to the american people, don, i think people continue to be more and more impressed with her honesty, credibility and the story she tells. >> i thought she comported herself well on the view today. >> i thought she was excellent.
>> and she seemed more relatable. because 60 minutes is such a big serious vehicle. >> it's a different environment. >> and i thought she comported herself well. and to some of the skeptics there she completely disarmed them. >> this goes hand in hand and i had the same reaction to her, frank,ly, don, when i met her. he meet her and expect one thing and get something entirely different. this woman is very intelligent, very credible, very likable. i when acroactually meet her and talk to her and hear about her motives you come away impressed. >> can we talk about michael cohen and shawn hannity? because you told jake tapper there must be be a reason why michael cohen didn't want shawn hannity's name out there in public. what do you mean by that? >> you have to understand the
context in which this disclosure came up. the context came up in the forum of what names need to be disclosed as it relates to protecting the attorney-client privilege to the extent one exists as it relates to the documents that were seized. it's all about the documents. so what names were in the documents that are clients of mr. cohen, so that those documents could potentially be protected. it wasn't in a broader scope of what client has michael cohen ever had in his legal career. so the only reason to raise shawn hannity's name was to protect the disclosure of documents that were seized by the fbi. so my confidence level is it's close to 100% as it possibly could be that there were documents that were seized by the fbi, either electronic documents or documents among the ten bankers box that were taken from the residents in the office that include shawn hannity's name. >> quick question about real estate filings. does that make a difference to
you? >> i'm not going to cast dispersions whether shawn hannity is telling the truth or michael cohen is telling the truth. but i will say this. you cannot square what shawn hannity has had publicly to what michael cohen's attorney said in court the other day. one of them is not being 100% honest or truthful. >> and documents you think will square that up. >> i think it might. >> from people who have reported, done business with him according the them, if you he doesn't pay you, he waits you out or therefore you drop it because he has more money, hoping the other person will run out of money. is that going to be the case here, he's going to wait you out? >> don, i'm 47 years of age. i try to keep myself in pretty good condition. i'm feeling all right these days. i'm red for a the long haul. my client is redady for the
long-hall. we're here to stay. we're not going anywhere. when we come back shocking accident onboard a dallas bound southwest airlines flight today. one woman dying after she was sucked into a hole of a broken window after an engine explode. remarkably she was the only passenger to die. and we're going to speak to one and what he thought in his final moments next. as a control enthusiast, i'm all-business when i travel... even when i travel... for leisure.
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now more businesses in more places can afford to dream gig. comcast, building america's largest gig-speed network. tonight a federal investigation is underway into a deadly incident aboard a southwest airlines jet. a flight from new york city to dallas making an emergency landing in philadelphia after an engine broke apart in midair after only 20 minutes. shrapnel apparently blowing out one of the cabin windows. passengers struggling to hold onto one woman who was sucked into the open window. and despite their best efforts she did not survive, though. i want you to listen to this is just some of the communications between it cockpit and air-traffic control. >> injured passengers, okay. and is your airplane physically on fire? >> not fire but part of its
missing. they said there's a hole and someone went out. >> i'm sorry, you said there was a hole and someone went out? southwest 1380 it doesn't matter we'll work it out there. >> joining me now is a passenger who was on that flight. how are you doing? >> i'm doing a little bit better. i'm fortunate to get a lot of loved ones that have reached out and finally have had a little bit of time to myself tonight, and and just feel very lucky to be alive. >> take me through this. when you realized something was wrong, what happened? what did you do? >> so i take a lot of flights, and it was just a regular standard flight. i'm used to the short three-hour trip from dallas to new york. and, you know, i didn't think anything different. and then i heard a loud boom.
and about five seconds later all of the oxygen masks deployed. and immediately knew something was wrong. it didn't register what it could have been. and then a few seconds later i heard another loud boom. and that's when i knew that there was really something wrong because the window had -- was blown out. >> you were sitting as i understand two rows behind had window that exploded and the woman that was partially sucked out of that window. what did you do? how did the other passengers react? did you see? >> oh, yes i think everyone was in a state of shock. to be clear, she was two rows ahead of me but on the left side of it plane. and i was two rows behind and i had the window seat. it took everyone off-guard, it took a second for them to really register what had happened. and the minute the flight -- or the window the had blown out, i
knew that we were in really bad trouble. >> so could you see -- could you see her at all? >> yeah, totally. because she was just cat corner to where i was sitting. >> was she conscious? >> i didn't hear a peep out of her. from the minute it happened obviously her shrieks and screams, but i didn't hear anything from her. >> how far out of the seat? >> luckily she had her seat belt strapped, but you know how big those windows are it was moving so fast everybody was freaking out. >> it was so awful. i'm so sorry for her family tonight. it's terrible. at one point the plane was going down, right? you guys knew the plane was going town and it wasn't looking good. people were buying more internet time. you were on your laptop on facebook live, right? >> right. i immediately thought, you know, if i probably -- i didn't
honestly think we were going to make it. who think you walk away from that type of experience. and all i could think was needing to communicate with my friends and family and loved ones back home. and so as a marketer i'm always, you know, thinking about social and using that as a means. as a means to communicate. but all i could think about was how i could get messages out to the people i loved. and so rather than really put my oxygen mask on, i reached for my laptop and in a panic was trying to get internet access. and i remember looking for my wallet. i'm not sure where it was, and then finally i secured it where and there i am as the plane is going down inserting my credit card information so that i could try to get wi-fi access. >> how long did this go on? >> it felt like maybe several
minutes, you know. and i kept inputting the wrong information in a panic. >> you said earlier you told a cnn producer that the landing was so violent you thought it was a crash and you thought you weren't going to make it. >> no, not at all. we were going down. if you're going through that experience you never think you're going to walk away from it. and then you hear on the intercom a panicked brace for landing, brace for landing. and i look to my right out the window and i see a city that i wasn't familiar with and come to find out later it was philadelphia. but as we're going down i have no idea are we near a runway? i see the tops of philadelphia, the top of the buildings. are we going to crash into these skyscrapers, are we going to land on a runway, i was completely unclear. >> what's the reaction once you landed from the passengers? >> everyoe was crying. i was with a colleague and i'll never forget like his level of
focus on just communicating like via text to his pregnant wife back home. and it's like everything else was zoned out, but he was just focused on getting, you know, his last words out to, you know, his wife. and i knew that we were just in a really bad shape. >> marty, thank you. of course our thoughts and prayers again for the woman who was killed. thank you for coming in. appreciate it. we'll be right back. ansformatioy happen? do you just flip a switch... and presto your business is magically transformed? not quite. it takes a ground-breaking company like dell technologies. a family of seven technology leaders working behind the scenes to make the impossible... reality. for instance, we're helping to give cars the power to read your mind from anywhere. ♪ we're helping up to 40% of the nation's donated blood supply...
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we learned today that the ceo of starbucks has met with two black many who was arrested for trespassing last week at one of the philadelphia stores all because they sat down at a table without buying anything. and the manager called police, no charges were filed but outraej has been spreading since the incident happened a few days ago. starbucks ceo has appall jdsed. but the sad truth is what happened in that starbucks could happen in anyplace in this conty. many people of color could tell similar stories. and as we all know it's not just starbucks. racism is a problem we all need to face whether we're black or white or brown. joining no now is kevin johnson president and ceo of starbucks. thanks so much for joining us, kevin. how are you doing? >> i'm well, don, thank you.
>> i want to start with the incident itself of two black men at one of your locs. this is the video that caught national attention. let's watch it for a moment. so kevin, when you first saw this video of those men arrest asked handcuffed what went through your mind? >> well, don, you watch that video it's hard to watch. and my heart sank. and that's why i'm here in philadelphia. you know, what happened to those two young men should not have happened. the police being called and then being arrested, they didn't deserve that. and so i'm here in philadelphia with many from my leadership team to make sure we listen, learn and understand how this could ever happen and take the set of actions to ensure it doesn't happen again.
>> kevin, sadly what you saw in that video is not vising most african-americans. and you said your heart sank, it's hard to watch. but were you surprised -- a lot of people were surprised by it or they don't believe it happened. >> well, you know, we saw it on that video, and, you know, in the opportunities i've had these last few days with my leadership team to meet with community leaders, the mayor, police commissioner, you know, many others including the two young men who were arrested, you know, it's clear to me that there's something in our society that i think we need to take seriously. >> so what do you think that is? you said there's something in our society we need to take seriously. what do you think that is? >> well, one of the acs we announced today and this is just one step in a journey to focus on the things we can do to
ensure our starbucks partners and the experience we create for each and every person that walks into our stores is the kind of experience that we are proud of, the kind of experience that every person that walks into our door can feel safe and welcome. and so the first step that we are taking is on may 29th in the afternoon we are closing all 8,000 plus starbucks company operated stores in the united states for mandatory training around unconscious bias, unconscious inclusion and working to not only educate but sensitize every starbucks partner to this issue. >> listen, i think it's great you're doing something but do you think you could accomplish that in one afternoon? you have 175,000 partners and employees you have to deal with. realistically is that -- >> don, this is not the only thing that has to happen. i've been on the ground here for three days.
i've had very little sleep. i've been actively engaged to listen and understand. and we are crafting a journey. this is the first step in our journey, and i have an accountability to make sure that, you know, we do the thoughtful analysis, that we are thorough and that we are intentional about every step we take to ensure that we can do everything we can so that this doesn't happen again to anyone who comes to a starbucks. now, that's why i'm here. >> listen, i know no company is perfect. this company i worked for is not perfect. but there have been incidents at starbucks before. were you aware of those or was there any action taken because there's been similar incidents before at starbucks. >> you know, i think as you pointed out that, you know, every company makes mistake. and great companies are companies that learn from those mistakes and take action. and that's the responsibility that i have. >> you met with the two men.
can you tell me what those conversations were like? >> well, i had asked to personally meet with it two young men who were arrested and i had that opportunity yesterday. and i apologized to them personally. i listened as they shared their personal experience with me of what they went through, don. and they didn't deserve that. and from there i think we had a very constructive dialogue around perhaps how we can take a very bad instance and turn it into something good. >> you know, i've interviewed thousands of people in my career. and i don't know if you're exhausted or how this really affected you, maybe it's a combination. but you seem to be really affected by this. what's going through your head? >> well, you know -- you know, it's been an emotional
experience. and spending these three days on the ground and sitting across from these young men and really trying to understand how this could happen in today's society in a starbucks, in a starbucks where our mission is around the human experience and creating a warm welcoming environment for everyone. and so for me it's a learning experience. it's an emotional learning experience, and i take it personally. so, yeah, i'm affected by it. and i'm going to fix it. >>ist >>isten, what do you say to people who don't believe these things happen or that it's beg exaggerated? what do you say to that having experienced when uty experienced what you just experienced? >> don, i just the only way i could describe this is you have
to go through this personally where you have an opportunity to sit across it table from two young gentlemen and hear them share their experience, and in doing that you learn to listen with your heart. i think this has to do with human connection and being open to sharing vulnerabilities and listening to others' vulnerabilities. and it starts with a dialogue, and it starts with being open minded and willing to have the courage to have that dialogue. and that's what i think those two young men and i had yesterday. we had a human connection because we share one thing in common. every one of us on this planet shares the human experience. >> did you ever speak directly to the manager? >> i did, yes. >> do they work there any longer? have they been reassigned, fired? >> well, that manager is no longer in that store. and my responsible is to look
broadly and review every aspect of this including the actions that manager took in everything related to guidelines, policies and training that went into this. and, you know, the fact is that the police should have never been called. that was wrong. and i've got to look at every aspect to ensure that i understand it and that this journey we go on ensures that it never happens again. >> kevin johnson, thank you so much. >> thank you, don. when we come back this is clearly not just about starbucks. it's about american society. but starbucks is a company with about 28,000 locations worldwide. can they actually make a difference here?
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what did you think after hearing from the ceo? >> i mean, i think there's sort of -- i give him props for opening himself up emotionally to this and feeling it right there in the interview. but i think there's two different journeys we have to talk about. the journey of starbucks the company to fix themselves and his own personal journey. the way he speaks about it is he's really having an awakening, but we can't really wait for him to fully awaken for the company to be fixed. do you understand what i'm saying, don? >> you can't wait for everybody to be woke? >> no, no. i mean, there are people out there who would run the company in a more inclusive way. he's saying his juourney and th company's journey have to be two separate things. we can't wait for every single white person to be woke. we just have to have a company that respects and doesn't discriminate against people.
>> you have to put more diversity and more people in the room in the intersanctity of the company. how do you go to different neighborhoods without looking like a gentrifier. when is the only time to call the cops. i know he said it's a one-day training, but the real question is, right now it's in the news. we work in the news, don. we have 5 very short-term memory in this country that we forget things very quickly. what happens in a year? what happens in five years. >> you said you wanted to wait to see what starbucks would really do before you cast judgment. so now you see they're closing every single u.s. store on may 29th to educate employees about racial bias. i said to him in one afternoon, i applaud you for doing
something. but young this is the real deal? >> it's just got to be the first step. it sounds good, it's a good headline. i'm not saying it's the right thing to start. blooe me, the journey he had in that interview with you where he started to cry. those men were in jail for almost nine hours. forget about that, forget about me, somebody sent a video earlier that went out saying they couldn't use the bathroom at a starbucks in torrance, california. and people have been coming to me with things that happened at starbuc starbucks, other coffee shops. they were acting like that man and that manager made one bad decision. it's a company-wide thing. every day starbucks can't be making decisions that are excluding people. but they're not caught on video or notable enough to tell a story about. >> that's a lot of money for one day. starbucks will be fine. we know that. >> i that eve got a lot of money. >> should other companies take notice?
do you think other companies should take notice. the united states government takes notice? maybe we should shut the whole country down for a day and talk about racism. not kidding. i would like, you know, when we talk about racism is about capitalism or about these businesses, we're really locating it in too small a place. the racism that kicked those two black men out of starbucks and called the caught is the same racism that got stephon clark killed in sacramento. it's not dashes. it's an unbreakable line. >> some are calling starbucks anti-black. do you think that's fair? >> i think anything to get star bucks to pay attention that's peaceful and expressing your first amendment rights is fine. people are trying to get starbucks to pay attention. if starbucks isn't anti-black, it will become very clear over the next few months and years. >> do wre give them a chance to educate themselves and become better? >> the market will bear that out. the market always bears that out. currently right now, my 6-year-old told me i'm not allowed to buy starbucks.
i can't buy starbucks. but everybody doesn't have a 6-year-old to tell them what to do. the market will bear it out. . we'll see. >> you feel to feel for the guy because he's having this awakening, but to african-americans we're like really? you didn't know that? so that's why it's so shocking to me. but it's not shocking to a large percentage of the population. and you're like why are you so -- like you had this epiphany all of a sudden and i feel bad for him. but you know what i'm saying. >> but if you swapped him out and made a black person in chaj of starbucks, they would change overnight. he has to own his whiteness. i think he has to -- white people in this country have to be more conversant in saying white when it refers to more than wall paper coloring.
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