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tv   New Day With Alisyn Camerota and John Berman  CNN  June 29, 2018 4:00am-5:01am PDT

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good morning. welcome to your "new day". alisyn is off. erica hill with me. john avlon as well. five shot dead at the "capital gazette". we will not be stopped. we are putting out a damn paper. they put out a paper after five employees were kid. five hard working underpaid employees murdered in the deadliest day for american journalism since september 11th. they just posted the opinion page. sit heartbreaking. they left it blank to honor the victims. they wrote this, tomorrow.
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>> the suspect is now charged with five counts of first-degree murder. this was a targeted attack. the gunman's long-running feud with the newspaper also a focus this morning. and a question about whether warning signs were missed. throughout all of this, it is impossible to ignore the fact that this comes at a time when anti-media rhetoric is at a dangerous fever pitch. fox sean hannity now blaming maxine waters and others point to president trump. he called the press as recently as monday, the enemy of the people. rene, good morning. >> reporter: good morning, erica. you talked about the "capital gazette" and putting out the paper. this is the front page of the paper. the five victims shot dead in their own "newsroom", all above the fold. this tight-knit community is still shaken. as for the shooter, we expect to
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see for the first time in court at 10:30 this morning. he faces five counts of first-degree murder. >> several shots have been fired, possible shotgun. at least 10 shots heard. >> reporter: a terrifying scene ununfolding inside the capital gazette newsroom. throwing in a general aid grenade. a gunman opening fire with a gunshot in an attempt police say was targeted. >> he shot through the front door. the glass shattered. he was going down our newsroom starting from the front just continually shooting people. >> sources tell cnn the suspect is gerard warren ramos. he is now behind bars. >> this person was prepared to
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shoot people. his intent was to cause harm. >> reporter: journalists describing the scene as a war zone. >> at some point when i was listening to him reload, you know, are we all going to die? it's not is he done but is he not going to leave until everyone is dead. >> reporter: some hiding under their desks. >> i grabbed my purse and went from the back door, it was locked. john was still trying to get out the door. i'm not sure what -- i'm not sure exactly in the next couple seconds what happened. but i know john was standing up. i heard the footsteps. and john got shot. >> reporter: authorities responding to the scene within 60 seconds and apprehending the shooter, who was hiding under a desk. >> we are inside the main office. >> reporter: authorities tell cnn the suspect had a longstanding grudge against the newspaper. in 2012, he filed a defamation lawsuit against "the capital
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gazette" after they published an article detailing a case where he pleaded guilty to harassing a former classmate on social media. the judge dismissed his suit citing lack of evidence. a law enforcement source says this twitter handle is believed to be the suspect's account. he tweeted several times about the paper and the author of an article about them writing in december 2015, quote, journalists, hell awaits. that journalist no longer works at the paper. the attack killing five gazette employees and injuring three others. wendi winters was a 65-year-old mother of four. the gazette describes her as a prolific writer who was beloved by the community she covered for years. assistant editor rob hiasson, a mentor to all, rob celebrated his 33rd wedding anniversary last week. his brother remembering him as one of the most gentle and funny people i've ever known.
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34-year-old sales assistant rebecca smith was a new hire and loved spending time with her family. gerald fleishman, editorial page editor, was known as bringing a clever wicked pen to the paper. a quiet and endearing figure in a "newsroom" full of characters. and mac, a staff writer who worked his dream job sports reporting. he's remembered for his razor wit and being a loyal friend. >> our thanks to rene for that report. terry smith, contributing columnist at the "capital gazette". thank you for being with us. we are so sorry for your loss. i know you lost very close friends. rob, gerald. just tell me about them. >> that's true. i worked regularly with gerald fischman who was a gifted writer and a conscientious terrific editor. rob hiaasen was a delight.
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his famous brother carl, very much like him. and just a pleasure to know and work with and to be around. and they're a huge loss. so are the others. wendi and the others, just terrific people. they were targeted because -- at least gerald and rob, occupied editor offices on one side of an otherwise open newsroom that was totally eventuvulnerable to a s. there was no security whatsoever. you walked into a big office building, turned right, left, two glass doors, which he shot his way through, and then there's a big open "newsroom" with altogether 170 people in there, although you don't see them right away. he was very deliberate in the --
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the shooter was, in going to the left and down the road of editors' offices. first rob, gerald, and then to the office of rick huetzel, the senior editor, top editor, who by chance was three hours away in ocean city, and the office was empty. the rest of the shooting took place right there in that ne newsroom. >> it is open because it is part of the community. i think part of what makes "the capital gazette" work is that it is part of the fabric of that community, correct? >> i think you're really right about that. i think the architecture, the layout and the openness were deliberate. it was an effort to make the paper and its people open to the community.
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now obviously they're going to have grave security concerns about that. but i think you're right. i think it was symbolic. >> when i saw the paper published this morning i had to say i wasn't the least bit surprised. still it took my breath away. i wonder what your reaction was when he saw "the capital gazette" published mere hours after five of its employees were murdered. >> it was stunning, stunning to me. not just the headline, not just the pictures across the top. but if you looked inside the editorial page, blank. and the first line, we are speechless today. >> and then the last line is we will publish tomorrow for our readers that they might be better citizens. that struck me as well. >> exactly. >> that's the mission of that paper. >> very, very effective.
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i did speak with rick huetzel, editor, as he was three hours away in ocean city. from the first moment he was determined to publish this morning. despite all that had gone on. >> that's what a newspaper does. what's what journalism is. which gets me to this question. look, you have to be blind and not have listened to anything the last couple of years to have not have witnessed the changing tenor in this country. do you think that played a role here, or do you fear it puts journalism at risk? >> yes. it's totally speculative what effect that had on ramos, the shooter, obviously. but let's face it, the atmosphere has changed. it's acrimonious. there is a wide attack on the
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media going on. and we're in an error of repeated mass shootings. did either of those facts stimulate the shooter to do what he did yesterday? i cannot say. just spoke with the police chief minutes ago here this morning. he told me that they were still not receiving any useful information from the shooter, ramos. he has been arraigned and jailed on no bond. but right now he's not talking. >> and we don't know if there was a direct connection there. what we do know and what you know obviously from your work is that journalists are not the enemy of the people, correct? >> they are not the enemy of the people. they are the people, part of the people. and my obviously biased view, their function is really important in a time especially like this when from the very top
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there is a full-scale war on the press and war on the first amendment, if you'd like. and so i think it's never been more important. and in some way never more difficult. >> i think that sums it up perfectly. never more important, never more difficult. terry smith, we thank you for being with us. we are very sorry for your loss this morning. >> my pleasure. >> he could not have summed it up more succin the ctly. >> that is the truth of our jobs right now. sometimes the first amendment, the first amendment versus the second amendment. that's incredibly dangerous. this paper has been around since 1727 in some form or another. this is the deadliest shooting
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in history. attacks on the press, the enemy of the american people, denigrates that, distracts our civic organization. >> sarah sanders said it also. >> as we take you to break, we do want to remember these five victims who were killed. healthier pet in 28 days. purina one. natural ingredients, plus vitamins and minerals in powerful combinations. for radiant coats, sparkling eyes, and vibrant energy. purina one. 28 days. one visibly healthy pet.
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was under that desk. i want your prayers, but i want something else. i just don't know what i want right now, right? z but i'm going to need more than a couple days of news coverage and some thoughts and prayers. because it's our whole lives have been shattered. and so thanks for your prayers but i couldn't [ bleep ] because there's nothing else. >> joining us now is former fbi supervisory special agent josh campbell and brian karem. brian, through that role and frankly just through your career, you knew four victims of this attack. and we want to be very clear. one of the things we want to make sure we do this morning and as we look forward is remember those whose lives were lost. let's start there, brian.
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>> it is good to remember those people because they were good journalists and award-winning journalis journalists. they were passionate, compassionate journalists. you don't take a job the a community newspaper for riches. you do it because of the passion you're doing, and being involved in your kphaouptd and informing people in your community. all of those people had that. celine, who you heard on the phone with anderson, has that passion. i'm very proud of her. she's a great young lady. is she interned with my wife and applied for a job with me and took the job at the "capital gazette" instead. that tells you these people are very -- let's not forget what we lost. so every time someone calls us, that's what stings more than anything else. when you call us enemy of the people or fake news. the majority of journalists are doing what those four did every day. they described it as a war zone.
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i have covered wars. when you go into a war zone, you're prepared for what may happen. you walk into your office in the "capital gazette" in annapolis new given day, you don't expect to be shot at. it is unexpected, frightening, violent. and it doesn't belong in the united states of america and it's scary. >> do you think the words that we hear too often now that journalists are enemies of the people, do you think that in some way -- >> of course. >> without a doubt. look, as i've said before, you know, i take the heartfelt tweet that sarah huckabee sanders put out. i take that to heart. but these people in the white house do not seem to understand that their words have meaning and their words have consequences. and that reporters are people. they dehumanize us as they dehumanize immigrants, calling them animals. that's the way of an autocrat.
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when you set them up so you can cleave them away, then what you have done is destroyed all of humanity. that's the road we're on. i think carl bernstein said if we're not in a constitutional crisis it is imminent. i feel we're at a conscience crisis, a crisis of humanity. how do we treat one another? why do we treat each other this way? for the love of heavens, reporters are people. they live in a community. they are part of the community. they are trained to be a disinterested third-party observer. you question, probe, ask hard questions. that's not rude. that is not being illegitimate or dehumanizing. it is when you return those with that type of deference, with that type of indignation, that type of anger to us and dehumanize us, there are real results to be paid. those five people paid that
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price yesterday for what? for what? then to be dehumanized further with sean hannity. sean hannity, as i said also, he does not have the wherewithal and does not have the experience, the ability, nor the talent to be a community journalist where you have to write the story, cover the story, lay out the story, talk to sources, be involved in more than 40 hours a week, involved in your community. it is very easy to pontiff indicate sitting here but it is very hard to do that job if you don't have that ability to do it. it's sad that people don't recognize it. >> as you have said and others have said this morning, that is not a job you get into for the money. >> absolutely. >> it is because you love it and you understand just how important that role is. josh, as we are looking at this, as we talk about the heated rhetoric and the rise in attacks, how do you monitor something like that and how do
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you differentiate between somebody just throwing out smoke on twitter and legitimate concerns, legitimate threats? >> it's a great question. that is always the struggle. at what point does speech cross the line into ilhee tkpwalegali. we know the rhetoric is overheated in the nation right now. it will be interesting to see as this investigation plays out, whether there was a factor in recent days that triggered this person. we have been reporting on this all night, gathering information. it appears as though this has been a longer term issue that this person had specific to this paper and we're continuing to gather those details. the question is what caused him to act today. looking at some of the past statements, there was -- he was involved with the courts, in the judicial system. there was nothing that rose to the level where law enforcement said we will take them into custody because of these words.
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something happened recently. that's what we need to look at. we have been covering this all night. and our job in law enforcement and our job in journalism is to stare at humanity and try to make some sense of it. there are already lessons learned here. on one hand you have someone who was a coward essentially, someone who decided the way to air his grievance was to pick up a weapon. on the or hand, you have brave journalists who are showing up today to do their job and tell their story. i was writing this morning at 2:30 this morning trying to find the right word to describe this pepper. the only word i can come up with is a loser. i don't say that as a cheap shot. he lost. if we remember him at all. think back to parkland. i can't remember who the shooter was and i covered that story. i was in santa fe covering that
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shooting, i barely remember the person that did it. i think that will be this guy's fate too. and if you decide that the decision that you're going to make is to air your grievance by picking up a weapon rather than having a discussion, you lose. >> i will say it is notable he picked up a weapon. but the journalists picked up their pens within hours. >> amen to that, john. look, we live with those threats every day. we get them at our newspapers. we have a variety of them. they have increased, spiked the last year and a half. and young reporters who work for me come in everyday. they take pen to paper. they cover high school sports, the state house, federal government because we're in montgomery and prince george's county. they walk in everyday with nothing but a pen and pad and take it upon themselves to tell other people who live in the community what is going on. >> the pen and pad isn't their
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protection, it's your protection. >> absolutely. >> it is america's protection. john, i want to make one thing clear. we do not know what drove this maniac to kill the people he did. we're not saying it happened because of xyz. we are saying it happened while we are hearing qxy kwrxyz. >> that is important to note. he did it with a shotgun. we have had -- this paper has been around since 1727. we have had the second amendment for most of that time. something is different. something has changed. when the young woman in the newsroom, said i don't want your thoughts and prayers, i appreciate them, but they're not enough. and reflecting on the fact as we do after many of these, else they are unhinged, unstable individuals in the world. yes, there was charlie h"charli.
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that is a different sort of newsr5new newsroom attack. the pen is still mightier than the sword. what is happening is different, and that should require a little bit of culpability, confidence and soul searching on the folks ratcheting up the rhetoric to make people think the press is the end of the american people. >> just because something followed something doesn't mean it is caused by something. all of this does occur at a time when threats against reporters have never been greater. calling us enemies of the people and fake news certainly emboldens those who are mentally unstable. >> jim acosta talking about what happened to him at the last rally. i woman said to him stop asking questions. ask one question and then be done. >> or if you ask a question
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you're called rude or disrespectful. that's doing your job. i get tired of that too. people say, oh, you know, why are you yelling at the president? it would be nice if he would hold still and talk to us. sometimes the only time you get to ask a question is when you yell at him going to a helicopter. >> thank you so much. let me restate what sarah sanders said in a poignant estimated. a violent attack on innocent journalists doing their job is an attack on on every american. thank you, sarah, for that. coming up for us, a volatile hearing on capitol hill. republican lawmakers going head to head with christopher wray and rod rosenstein. percussion massage.hern not cool. freezing away fat cells with coolsculpting? now that's cool. coolsculpting safely freezes
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sometimes you need an expert. i got it. and sometimes those experts need experts. on it. [ crash ] and sometimes the expert the expert needed needs insurance expertise. it's all good. steve, you're covered for general liability. and, paul, we got your back with workers' comp. wow, it's like a party in here. where are the hors d'oeuvres, right? [ clanking ] tartlets? we cover commercial vehicles, too. i think there's something wrong with your sink.
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>> if you have evidence of wrongdoing by any member of the trump campaign present it to the damn grand jury. if you have evidence that this president acted inappropriately, present it to the american people. whatever you've got. finish it it the hell up because this country is being torn apart. >> joining us is jerry nadler, ranking democrat on the house judiciary committee. this was four hours plus yesterday. did you learn anything from this hearing with christopher wray and rod rosenstein? >> no. we didn't learn anything we didn't already know except perhaps how really bad the republicans are, how they are trying to intimidate and pressure the investigation. we knew that. this is a real illustration of it. trey gowdy, who conducted the benghazi investigation for close
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to four years, to say finish this investigation already. this has been going on less than a year. they already have 20 indictments. >> it is more than a year. rosenstein was appointed more than a year ago. >> a year and a half. they have gotten 20 indictments, 5 guilty pleas. that is a lot for a year and a half. it is a complicated thing they are investigating. no rope to assume they are not going as fast as reasonable, which rosenstein said they were. >> one of the things you hear from the committee is in the midst of that hearing republicans say the doj is not being complaint with requests for documents and information. >> that's particularly shameful accusation. the republicans are making -- well, first of all, the doj has in response to an investigation into the republican investigation into the investigation, has supplied hundreds of thousands of pages of documents. what they haven't supplied is
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what they cannot simpupply and t is you cannot give over information relating to an ongoing investigation.
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one of the things said yesterday peter strzok said behind closed doors, he didn't answer some questions because an fbi lawyer advised him not to. is that true? >> yes. >> it was my understanding peter strzok, going into that hearing, his lawyer said he's going to answer all questions. he's not going to plead the fifth. why wouldn't he answer some questions? >> well, because the fbi told him not to for reasons of fbi privilege.
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i was sitting through most of that. and he clearly wanted to answer. he was champing at the bit to answer some of the questions. he answered as best he could. >> are there legitimate reasons to not answer certain questions? >> i don't know. i tried to get the fbi to let him answer one or two questions. i don't know the legal reasons. but it wasn't up to him. >> can you give me the nature of what he could answer? >> no. there were a number of questions. we have said, by the way, democrats are demanding that the transcript be released. >> i would love to see it go public on tv. >> well, it wasn't done on camera. but the transcript should be released as far as i'm concerned. now, the committee apparently is going to ask strzok to testify in public in two weeks. >> right. >> that's fine. i don't see any reason why the whole transcript shouldn't be made public. >> we would like to see it go
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public. we would like to see it live and televis televised. i think people need to see it. let me play one more moment. this is between jim jordan and the deputy attorney general. >> i am deputy attorney general of the united states, okay. i'm not the person doing the redacting. >> you're the boss, mr. rosenstein. did you threaten staffers on the house intelligence committee? media reports indicate you did. >> media reports are mistaken. >> who are we supposed to believe, staff members who believe, staff members who we have worked with that never misled us, or you guys who we have caught hiding information from us, who told witnesses not to talk to us. >> thank you for making this personal. >> the democratic leader is defending rod rosenstein. do you have any questions how he handled this?
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>> no. as far as i can tell, he has handled it with conscious mat professionalism. let me make a couple of comments. the president and the republicans acting as his agents in the house, jordan, gowdy, have been making all sorts of investigations against the investigation. it's a witch-hunt. they make the accusations about the expect of the investigation, et cetera, et cetera. the fact of the matter is, and either gowdy or jordan said they're losing confidence in the investigation. well, may be. the fact is the investigation is being conducted properly. there are no leaks from this investigation. all we know, for good or ill about the investigation, are 20 people have been indicted, 5 pleaded guilty, including very close associates of the president of the campaign. and all we know is the indictments and the information we know from court filings. no leaks.
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whether the investigation is being done properly, not properly, et cetera, we don't know except that there have been no leaks. the campaign of defamation against the special prosecutor and against rosenstein has been one sided. >> thank you for being with us today. >> thank you. president trump offering a better trade deal for france but what would france have to give up next. if you have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, or psoriatic arthritis, little things can be a big deal. that's why there's otezla. otezla is not an injection or a cream. it's a pill that treats differently. for psoriasis, 75% clearer skin is achievable with reduced redness, thickness, and scaliness of plaques. and for psoriatic arthritis,
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the european union of course was set up to take advantage of the united states, to attack our piggy bank, right? you know what, we can't let that happen. >> president trump has taken on the european union at recent rallies. now we are learning his issues with the eu also came up with the french president macron in a private meeting. josh broke the story and joins us now. josh, my understanding is he suggested mato macron that fran leave the european union. >> president trump suggested if france leaves the european union, he will give a better deal on trade than the european gets with the united states. it is in one interpretation an offhand comment and on another,
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a shock. it fits into a pattern of president trump saying really, you know, unconventional things about u.s. alliances. taken in isolation, it can be written off as a joke or suggestion. but in the context of what's going on in the u.s./europe relationship, it fits a pattern that is shocking allies. >> there have been reports in the last few days he was running down nato suggesting that nato is as bad as nafta. just this morning, josh, we are getting reporting from axios that he is suggesting that the united states approximately out of the wto, world trade organization. he is threatening to withdraw a hundred times. it would total ly screw us as a country said a source who's discussed the subject with trump. the source added that trump has
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frequently told advisers we always get fed by them the wto, i don't know why we're in it. the wto is designed by the rest of the world to screw the united states. >> the united states and europe have just spent eight decades building, the cornerstone of peace and stability in the world. the alliance that will allow us to confront the coming strategic challenges of russia and china. and trump very basically doesn't agree with this structure despite the fact that his aides tell him it's a good idea. the president just doesn't simply believe these are delivering for the united states. now, his administration has an explanation that he is just trying to reform the world order, not dismantling it. i spent a week in europe. they are freaked out. they don't understand why the president doesn't understand the value of the sa lineses and what
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they bring to the table. when your allies are freaked out and your enemies are very happy, you are doing it wrong. that is a diplomatic fail. heading into the summit and his meetings with russia, no telling the other suggestions that might bring up. >> and used the phrase world order. institutions that have helped to keep this world together for decades. but also you noted the president to an extent ran against them. the president to an extent always said he doesn't like them. the question is, do you believe he fundamentally understands the role they have played in the world the last several decades? >> yeah. it's clear his advisers have been trying to convince him of the value of the international world order. he is simply not convinced. he says all the time, i just simply don't agree with the arguments. it is also a glaring sort of fact that all of these positions track the opinions of russian president putin.
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we don't know why he agrees. i'm not going to speculate on that. it is either a huge coincidence or there is a good reason why they feed russian national security interests and align with putin's personal views. that is a huge windfall for russia. that is a huge blow to our allies. the effects are felt not only in diplomacy but also in america's relations with all of these countries. so, you know, that's a problem. in the first year you could have said, well, his national security cabinet kept him pretty much on track. they managed him. he didn't do anything too shocking. some shocking things like pulling you out of paris, et cetera. but basically the guard rails held. in the second year, president trump is unleashed, going rogue, going trump. now nobody knows if people like mike pompeo, mattis, kelly, as long as he stays around, will be able to keep the president from succumbing to his worst in
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steupgts with huge implications. >> the president in the days after he meets with america's oldest al eyes in the nato alliance. josh rogin, great to to have you with us. >> i'm just thinking what josh said at the end, the rhetoric from putin and similar language and similar talking points. this of course brings us back to when you were in singapore covering the meeting with north korea and the language we heard from the president after that that mirrored what we heard from kim jong-un. >> that may indicate a certain susceptibleability. but this is something different. maybe it's a giant coincidence that he seems to favor with withdrawing the united states in institutions that our country helped to create. comparing nato to 1/2 attachment saying why don't you pull out of the eu. wto, wtf, why are we part of
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this? this dove tails exactly what vladimir putin security issues and the opposite of america's national -- >> and we will note the investors we had on early, he is just saying this. just saying it has consequences. >> that's the whole point. you can't just say it. even if you think you are buttering someone up, real world consequences. >> yeah. >> we have been following the story of antwon rose, the 17-year-old unarmed teenager killed in east pittsburgh. his family joins us next on the heels of charges for that officer. you've tried moisturizer after moisturizer
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an east pittsburgh police officer is charged with criminal homicide for shooting and killing an unarmed 17-year-old. antwon rose was riding in a car which was suspected of being involved in another shooting. officer michael rossfeld shot rose as he was trying to run away. joining me is his mother, sister and their attorneys.
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thank you for taking the time to come in today. there are no amount of words, obviously, that can express our condolences, but you do have them. >> thank you. >> there has been an outpouring of support for your family, for your son. tell us about antwon, first of all. >> antwon was kind, loving, and he would give you the shirt off his back. antwon volunteered not because he had to, but because he wanted to. we were an extremely close three? >> one of your oldest friends joined us earlier this week. you two grew up together, nicole nesby, she's mayor in a nearby town. and she said he was beautiful and he was so full of life, and talked about the way he would help. he was a skier, he was into sports. he was also a writer. he wrote a poem his sophomore year, and it's gotten a lot of attention. we shared it, and i'm going to put it up on the screen again. and he talks specifically about
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you, saying, "i'm not what you think. i am confused and afraid. i wonder what path i will take. i hear there's only two ways out. i see mothers bury their sons. i want my mom to never feel that pain." there have been far too many conversations with mothers in the wake of losing their sons. and i know from friends of mine and from other people i've spoken with, there's a talk you often have with your son. how hard was it to have that talk with antwon? >> antwon and i talked all the time. i just wanted him to know that i loved him. i never foresaw anything like this happening. but i just always felt the need to tell him that i loved him. i don't know why, but i just always wanted both of my kids to know that i loved them, but i wanted antwon to know that he
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was special. and i really just wanted to stress the fact that there's no love like a mother and a son. i love my daughter. i love my kids equally. but that mother and son love is just unexplainable. >> kira, sitting here with your mom, holding her hand, you talk about how you were a threesome. you're such an important rock for your mom. there's so much going on, and we see these protests. and i know that you had asked while you're paying your respects and laying antwon to rest for them to stop. they have been persistent, but they have been very peaceful. people out there, though, they want to see justice for your son and for your brother. what's it like when you see all of this happening on a daily basis? >> sometimes it's overwhelming, you know, because it's like, that's my brother. and it's crazy, because all these people are showing so much love and support. we would have never imagined.
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i mean, we would never have imagined this would have happened to antwon, but we would never have imagined everybody just trying to help us. we appreciate it. we do. we're not out there yet because we're still going through our movements, but we're going to be out there right with them. we promise that. we just want justice for my brother at the end of the day, because my mom, she lost her only son. my daughter, she lost her uncle and her role model. i lost my brother and my best friend. he did not deserve that. everybody passes judgment. everybody has stuff to say. but no one really knows. so, it's crazy, because we have to sit back and we have to watch the protest fight, but right now we have to grieve before we step out there. >> can i say something? i just wish antwon was here to see all this.
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he didn't live for fame or fortune or any of that. if you read his letter and you read his poem, you know his primary concern was his family. but i always told antwon how much i loved him, but i wish he could see how much the people around him loved him. >> you mentioned justice, kyra, and that you want justice. and i know you tdo, too, michelle. what does that mean to you? what is justice in this case? >> i'd have to turn that over to the attorneys because that's a legal question and right now i can only deal with how i feel as a mom. i can't see past having to bury my son. >> one moment at a time. >> one second at a time. i'm holding on. i don't know how to explain it. >> there probably aren't words. >> no, i just pray no one ever, after me, has to feel this way.
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no one. >> the officer's out on bond right now. how do you feel about that? >> i buried my son. he's not coming back. we have pictures, memories. i'm glad we do, but i don't -- i have no words. no words. i mean, for me, i buried my only son. i buried my baby. i don't know. i really don't. >> i think a lot of people can understand that and can understand that sentiment. we talked about justice. you said that's more of a legal question for you right now. lee, what is justice? >> justice in this case means not only the charges, which we appreciate, but an actual indictment, an actual prosecution that results in a
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conviction and appropriate sentencing. so, in a lot of these cases that we've walked through over the years, we see the initial charges that passificifies prots and the community, but it doesn't result in a conviction. it is very difficult anywhere in the country to get a conviction of a law enforcement officer, police officers, because of the nature of their profession. they're given automatic credibility. even when they engage in some of the most heinous behavior. and so, seeing this through a conviction is going to take continued resolve, a continued investment from the community and commitment from the prosecutors involved. >> there were some calls early on for the county attorney general in this case, steve s l sepala, to step down. here's what he said following the charges. >> i find that rossfeld's actions were intentional and they certainly brought about the result that he was looking

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