tv CNN Tonight With Don Lemon CNN August 21, 2018 11:00pm-12:00am PDT
because we want to see the president do poorly? no. even though he doesn't have half the country with him, he does have a lot of people, millions and millions and all of us need to agree on certain things like fraud, felonies surrounding and involving a president. those are bad things, and if we don't all see that, then the truth has been politicized. that means our institutions have taken a hit. just as trump wants. respect for law stains, silly silos, ugly notions of us versus them. divisions hike that is toxic. today will be the test. if what we learn today doesn't matter to people, what will? "cnn with don lemon" with cnn tonight starts right now. today has to matter. it doesn't mean it's the end for the president. nothing like that, but people need to agree, don, these types of lies, these types of fraud, it's wrong. >> i just want to look. i think it's significant. obviously the truth matters, we talk about that, but this is a 180 for michael cohen. this is january this year.
president trump once again vehemently denies any such occurrence talking about the payments, and then he says in january 17th again. it's old news. it wasn't true then. it's not true now, and then he says i used my own personal funds to facilitate the payments and sarah sanders says there was no knowledge of the payments from the president and it goes on and on and here's where we end up today. here's where we end up if i can get through this. where he says to the judge in this case at the direction of a candidate. now, all along you and i have been fighting allegations from trump's people that it was fake news. nothing to it. witch-hunt, move along. he doesn't know anything about it. today, can't really say that, can you? >> well, they will say cohen is an admitted liar and is lying now to help the government. >> it doesn't behoove him to
lie. >> it would hurt him. >> if he said this was done at the president's direction he better have proof, and if he doesn't, they say it in the plea agreement, the allocution, when the judge tells you, you know, the deal right before sentencing, if you want to say anything, he took that opportunity. if he's lying he's dying in terms what have this deal means. >> we both know michael cohen from the campaign and just from being a character, a person here in new york. again, this is a total 180 for him. i cannot wait to hear him speak. i cannot wait to hear his side of the story. boy, is that going to be amazing. >> i can't wait to seat proof. lanny davis just said, i said do you think he knows more things about wrongdoing by the president or even any potential criminal behave i don't remember and he said yes, and he said we'll see what happens. he wants to tell the truth but, yes, i believe he knows things. if he can show what he knows, this could be very significant. >> yeah. i have lanny on. you did a great job. i'll have lanny on as well as michael avenatti and other players in this.
chris, thank you. noise job. interviewed the interviews. this is "cnn tonight." i'm don lemon. here's our breaking news. only the best people. donald trump promised you he would hire only the best people, and tonight two of those people hand picked by donald trump are facing years behind bars. one of the president's closest confidants pleading guilty to eight criminal counts in new york. at almost the same time, same moment that a jury in virginia finds his former campaign chairman guilty of eight counts of financial crimes, charges so serious that all together they carry a maximum sentence of 80 years in prison. first, there's michael cohen, the president's former fixer and keeper of secrets who at one time held a position of deputy finance chair of the republican national committee pleading guilty today.
stating that, quote, it's a quote, in coordination and at the direction of a candidate for federal office. will he kept information that would have been harmful to that candidate from becoming public. and while cohen doesn't name the candidate, there is no question who he is, and that's donald trump. the so cohen is referring to hush money payments to two women who say they had affairs with donald trump. stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. remember this tape. it was obtained by cnn. it's of trump and cohen discussing paying for rights to mcdougal's story. other it is. >> correct. so i'm all over, that and i spoke to alan about it. when it comes time for the financing which will be -- >> listen, what financing? >> we'll have to pay? >> want to pay with cash? >> no, no, no, no, no. >> check? >> today's guilty plea is absolutely stunning coming from a man who was in trump's inner circle for a decade, who once said he'd take a bullet for trump and vowed loyalty over and
over and over. >> i'd protect mr. trump. i'll do anything to protect mr. trump. i'm obviously very loyal and dedicated to mr. trump. >> so a person close to the president telling cnn that trump has been stewing all day. that source describing cohen as, quote, the rat, but that's not the only legal bombshell for team trump tonight. paul manafort, the president's former campaign chairman, found guilty of eight counts. the number is eight today, right? five tax fraud charges, one charge of hiding foreign bank accounts and two counts of bank fraud in the first case brought to trial as part of the mueller investigation. jurors unable to reach a verdict on ten other charges, and with the legal walls closing in, the president attempts to defend manafort while conspicuously saying next to nothing about cohen. >> i must tell you that paul
manafort is a good man. he was with ronald reagan. he was with a lot of different people over the years, and i feel very sad about that. it doesn't involve me, but i still feel, you know, it's a very sad thing that happened. this has nothing to do with russian collusion. this started as russian collusion. this has absolutely nothing to do. it's a witch-hunt. it's a disgrace. >> you know, the president would like you to believe that mueller's investigation is a witch-hunt. he says it all the time. it's not a witch-hunt. no matter how many times he says, it don't forget special counsel robert mueller has already gotten five guilty pleas. former trump campaign official rick gates, paul manafort's deputy, pleaded guilty to two criminal charges, conspiracy to defraud the united states and making false statements.
as part of his plea deal he agreed to cooperate with mueller's investigation, and then there's dutch lawyer alex van der zwaan who pled guilty to lying to investigators about his discussions with gates. he served 30 days in prison and was deported to the netherlands in june. richard pinedo pled guilty to election fraud running a business selling dummy bank accounts to shadowy buyers including russians to sew discord in american politics. his lawyer said he didn't know the identity of his customers. he cooperated with mueller's investigation as well. fired trump national security adviser michael flynn pleaded guilty to lying to the fbi about his conversations with former russian ambassador to the u.s. ambassador sergey kislyak and he's been cooperating with the special counsel investigation. his sentencing hearing was delayed for the fourth time today. former trump campaign adviser george papadopoulos pled guilty to making a false statement to
the fbi after he lied about his interactions with foreign officials close to the russian government. mueller last week told a judge that papadopoulos lied repeatedly and caused damage to the investigation. the special counsel has recommended that papadopoulos be sentenced up to six months in prison. this is no witch-hunt. these are not the best people. a lot of lying going on there. a lot of russian connections. these are facts, and another fact the president won't like, meuller's investigation is far from over. let's discuss. laura coates is here, a legal
analyst. jack quinn is one as well. also, former u.s. attorney michael moore and the former corruption prosecutor for the southern district of new york. good evening, thank you all for joining with us. laura, i'll start with you. michael cohen pleading guilty to eight felonies and paul manafort guilty on eight counts. a dramatic and monumental day in u.s. history. >> it absolutely, is and if you're talking about this from the perspective everyone saying hold on. none of this says russian collusion happened. none of this is actually about russian collusion. well, that is quite the distractor that's trying to fuel the narrative from the president. in reality, these cases all came out of the mandate that mueller had to probe russian collusion. the fact that he was able to sense out the dangers, the criminality and farm out one of the cases does not mean this is a witch-hunt. what he did was showcase to the american people that there was solidity to his charges, credibility to his overall charge and campaign, and it also emboldened them going forward. there is a case still waiting to happen for paul manafort in washington, d.c. in a matter of
weeks, so the notion that this is an attack on simply robert mueller and the president wants to fuel that narrative is simply belied by the statements. finally, you know, michael cohen said he was willing to take a bullet for the president. he never contemplated that perhaps through rudy giuliani it was trump who would hold that gun and when the gun was put to his head, guess what he did, self-preservation. >> you had been saying that all along. most people -- many of you have been saying all along it's going to be about self-preservation and here we are. you were the white house counsel under president clinton. if you're the white house counsel tonight, what are you thinking? >> i'm thinking that this was the worst day since i've been on the job. you know, this was really a double-barreled assault on the white house -- on the white house -- it was really on the president. let's face it. michael cohen's statement in court today was incredibly
dramatic, significant and will haunt the president in many ways for months to come. here he said that he committed a violation of the law, that he did so at the direction of the president of the united states. he has identified the president as his co-conspirator in that crime. that is a gigantic deal. as for the paul manafort case as laura said there's another case yet to come, but frankly i take real offense be at the idea that the president would on this day say paul manafort is a good man. a jury of a dozen men and women in the state of virginia found that paul manafort stole from his fellow citizens when he hid money and refused to pay taxes like all of them do and like everybody else in this country does. he stole money from the american people and the united states government.
that is not the conduct of a good man. >> listen, you work for the southern district in new york prosecuting corruption and fraud. this is an example that no one is above the law. you heard what jack said there, you know. he defrauded people, right? he broke the law, but no one is above the law, and this shows is. >> absolutely. that's absolutely right, and that's why these cases are so important. that's why they have to be allowed to go to their logical course. that's why they have to be prosecuted because if you have corruption -- corruption corrupts from the top it, and you need to have deterrents, and
these cases are so important, and frankly judges when they come to sentencing these men are going to take into account the fact that they were in these positions of power and that they abused it and frankly, you know, i shudder to think what they will get in so far as sentences, but part of one of the very important factors of sentencing is deterrents effects and those are cases that you've got to make a statement about. >> why do you say you shudder to think? do you think they will get harsh sentences? >> they very well good. they very well could get harsh sentences. these judges are reasonable, but, you know, michael cohen has a guidelines calculation with what the parties, the government and his attorneys have agreed is, you know, the top of the guidelines here for his sentence is 63 months. the judge doesn't have to do that. it's up to the judge to figure out the sentence. >> yeah. the judge has leeway to do what he wants. michael, remember this investigation of michael cohen. it grew out of a referral from the mueller investigation. his team referred it to the southern district of new york. you know, the president and his folks like to say it's not connected to the president at all, but that's important. it's all connected. >> it's all connected, and it was clearly not a good day for the president.
you've got to the remember there are two distinct investigations going on at this time. the southern district of new york which received the investigation because of bob mueller's referral. and mueller, i think was mindful of his authority under the memo and he was basically looking at all things russian. i think that's really today there's been a lot of talk on the news about the whole idea of whether or not cohen is going to cooperate with the government, and i would suggest to you that what it tells me tonight is that in fact this is well planned by bob mueller to not have a cooperation angle in the southern district of new york, in fact, to keep the cases separate. that way nobody can come back at the end of the day and say bob mueller was really the puppet master up there pulling the strings in the southern district of new york. he really didn't mean to refer it out. my guess is that you'll see by cohen getting sentence it had, and under the federal rules of criminal procedure there's rule 35 mostly that can be filed by the government at the end of the day which allows the government
come back after a sentence and say, hey, you know, this guy came to us and talked to us about somebody, gave us information that was important in another criminal investigation and now we want you to come in and assist him and give him a credit toward his sentence and sentence reduction. that's not happened yet and that's because mueller is a smart enough prosecutor to know to keep his hands clean, to let those investigations run their course, the cases run the separate tracks and then he can send somebody in at the end of the day and come in and go talk to cohen and find out what cohen has to say. there's no way that cohen walked into that courtroom and pled guilty and is looking at four and a half, five years of prison away from his family without at least some consideration that, you know, he's going to tell the truth, and i think lanny davis has basically told us that. i mean, he said without question he's going to turn over a new leaf. he's coming forward.
at a place in his life where he wants to quit hiding and tell the truth. i think we've got to put some stock in that and we can expect to hear more from cohen and what he knows as the months progress. >> unindicted co-conspirator. we'll discuss whether he is or isn't. stick around everybody. michael cohen implicated the president in his guilty plea today. why is team trump claiming that he doesn't have anything damaging on the president? we'll discuss that. erywhere. so why am i sliding into this ski lodge with my mini horse? because hotels.com lets me do me. sorry, the cold makes him a little horse. hotels.com. you do you and get rewarded. and i'm the founder of ugmonk. before shipstation it was crazy. it's great when you see a hundred orders come in, a hundred orders come in, but then you realize i've got a hundred orders i have to ship out. shipstation streamlined that wh the order data, the weights of , everything is seamlessly put into shipstation, so when we print the shipping ll everything's pretty much done. it's so much easier so now, we're ready, bring on t. shipstation. the number one ch
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laura has gotten herself a drink of water so she's doing fine. been there. and when you get the tickle there's nothing you can do except take care of it. >> thank you. >> listen, i want to ask you about the ramifications about the president, laura, this unindicted co-conspirator. with michael cohen implicating president trump in these campaign finance charges, what's the danger to the president? >> extremely high. the campaign finance laws are structured in a way that you have to report any contributions that are made and it's a maximum cap on the amount that you can actually give, and you can't even use a loan system where somebody pays it for you and then you reimburse after an election because that would actually undermine the whole premise and reason you have campaign finance laws which is to have transparency and who is providing money to a campaign. so if you now have michael cohen, and if he's to be believed through his allocution in court, that he was directed and coordinated with the then candidate donald trump to actually violate campaign finance lawyers and the important part he added to
influence the election, well, what you have here is a prosecutor's office that says to themselves is there anything to corroborate this statement, and you've got the president's own statement on the back of air force one. you had the tapes that were released by lanny davis on our own airwaves on cnn about a conversation between michael cohen and the president of the united states, then candidate, about the payment for not only karen mcdougal to ami, the own of "national enquirer" but payments in the future for stormy daniels. you have all this corroboration coming into play. it's no wonder now why giuliani would have felt so compelled to go on a slanderous campaign to try to undermine the credibility and head off what michael cohen might have said. you found it today in one of the counts he pled guilty to. >> i was going to play it a little bit later, but since you mentioned, it let's play. this is air force one. i want to play what the president initially said on air force one when asked about the payment to stormy daniels. here it is. >> mr. president, did you know about the $130,000 payment to
stormy daniels? >> no, no. >> why would michael cohen make that to her? >> you'll have to ask michael cohen. michael is my attorney. >> do you know where he got the money to pay her? >> no, no. >> rudy giuliani said trump reimbursed michael cohen for the payment. here's the question. jack, are we in impeachment territory here? >> sure. if by that you mean are the acts of which -- with which the president has been accused here, would they constitute high crimes and misdemeanors? of course they would. rudy giuliani has acknowledged in the past that the president directed michael cohen to make these payments. >> right. >> it's not that he just knew about them after the fact and reimbursed them. at least davis says that donald
trump directed cohen to make these payments, so he's tightly bound up in those. look, i'm probably perhaps the only one on this panel who actually thinks that an indictment -- that it's not a clear question whether a president can be indicted or not. there's nothing in the constitution. >> i'm glad you said that because that was my next question because everybody assumes because everybody said that. is that true, can a sitting president not be indicted? >> let me tell you why. i've written a piece on this. let me tell you in summary why i think that's the case. number one, there's nothing in the constitution that says a president has immunity from prosecution. by contrast, there are provisions in the constitution that immunize members of congress from prosecution in the speech and debate clause.
the framers, therefore, knew, how to immunize people and they chose not to do that with respect to the president. the two documents that are relied on to make this argument that a president can't be indicted are memos of the office of legal counsel in the justice department. one was issued during the watergate era and another during the clinton scandals. the point i want to make here that as good as the lawyers are in the office of legal counsel, it's important that we remember that they work for the president who was then the subject of the question whether or not the president can be indicted. so it's hard to say that they were completely unbiased. the office of legal council, great lawyers, but they are not members of the supreme court. >> khan, you're shaking your head when i ask you that question. is it absolutely certain that a sitting president can't be indicted? >> it's not absolutely certain.
that's been the practice based on those memos, and as a practical matter i think it's already been said by mueller and by others that they are going to abide by that. >> right. >> so whether or not anyone -- it could be litigated, and, of course, it can, like anyone is going to be. no one is going to test it in this station. >> this is a statement from trump's attorney rudy giuliani. this reflects a pattern of lies and dishonesty over a period of time. he's not saying that the president was implicated today in this crime. >> i'm guessing that he gave the statement before he saw the charging documents and he would have seen trump's name appearing all over the document indicating a candidate running for president and complicity in the federal election law. let me say this about the president being indicted. i think it's an unsettled
question. i think at the time our framers expected the men at the time who were in the congress to have the fortitude to step forward and pull back a president who exceeded his authority. the problem is we're at a point in history when the -- the members of congress don't have that statesman like courage, so we're having to debate this question on whether or not a president can be indicted. i don't think our framers ever imagined a time when the congress would not keep the executive in check, and i think that's why we have checks and balances. i think that's why you have co-equal branches of government, but we're at a time when the republicans have decided to let this president run rogue and commentators like us get on here and talk about whether or not the law allows for a sitting president to be indicted so he can be removed from office. that's really -- we're talking about it because the members of congress have abdicated the duties to which they swore an oath. >> thank you all. i appreciate your time. much more to discuss. when we come back, my next guest says this is the first time
since watergate that a president has been accused of being personally involved in a campaign finance violation. so what will that mean for president trump? ♪ introducing e*trade personalized investments professionally managed portfolios customized to help meet your financial goals. you'll know what you're invested in and how it's performing. so you can spend more time floating about on your inflatable swan. [ding]
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have on. larry, good evening to you. >> thanks for having me. >> how serious is it for the president that his former attorney directly implicates him in coordinating a campaign finance violation? >> it's very serious. what michael cohen said today in court directly implicates the president in a campaign finance violation. he says he directed and coordinated with cohen to do these acts which were the campaign finance violations, and that is the first time -- i've been practicing campaign finance law for i hate to admit it 40 years, where the president has been directly accused of these type of campaign finance violations. >> it's just then you're saying it's uncharted territory. what does that mean for the president? we've been going back and forth about whether a sitting president can be indicted or not. you can be found guilty of a campaign violation, i would imagine that's serious, maybe, i don't know. you tell me. >> this type of violation is very serious.
this violation -- there's several violations here. it's a corporate contribution. more than one corporate contribution. it's failure to report corporate contributions, successive contributions and what the president did according to michael cohen is both direct that these contributions be solicited in assessing that lets see if we can get this money, one from presumably ami the media company and have michael cohen advance the money and, two, as the candidate he accepted these illegal contributions. >> is the president at risk of being criminally prosecuted? >> yes, i think he is. anybody should be at the risk of criminally prosecuted. as the last panel discussed there's a question whether a president can be indicted. i go along with those who say it's an untested area, but as somebody noted that the department of justice seems to accept the idea that the president cannot be indicted so that -- that -- that may be trump's last saving in this, but this is an issue that congress should take up. this may very well be a high crime and misdemeanor for impeachment. >> could a criminal charge serve as a basis for impeachment? >> yes, yes, the house itself gets to decide what's a high
crime and misdemeanor and can decide to impeach him over this. he doesn't have to be convicted. nixon was never convicted, an unindicted co-conspirator. clearly a very serious matter for trump. if he wasn't question i have no question that they would indict him and charge him, but as president the question is did they do that? but it's really serious. i think it will taint his presidency. also, i don't think this is the end of it. there's more things that will come out. if you look at the actual information that the government had. they talk about coordination with the campaign, and so i wonder what else was coordinated with the campaign, what other types of deals were coordinated with the campaign. >> very interesting. even if -- you know, i'll discuss this with my political types because they probably know more about this, but you can hear the deafening silence from republican lawmakers in washington now. impeachment that's a ways off because i don't know if they would even act to do it because they are so complicit now. listen, even if the justice
department decides not to indict a sitting president, does anything preclude him from being indicted after he leaves the white house? >> no. he can be indicted after he leaves the white house. there is a question of the statute of limitations, but he can be indicted after he leaves the white house. you know. that's a real possibly, but as you allude to, the political implications are tremendous. at some point the republicans will have to accept that this is real, that they can't just keep saying that this is unimportant or, you know, nothing has been proven here. this is real and this is serious. we have a president who has been accused by his lawyer of violating campaign finance laws, so i think that the political fallout of this may be greater than trump is hoping for. >> you know, back in 2011, former vice presidential nominee john edwards indicted for using illegal campaign contributions to conceal his mistress. these payments were to silence women alleging affairs a month before the election. the timing is important here.
is there a parallel, do you think? >> there is a parallel but this is a much stronger case. >> really? >> john edwards was indicted and tried, and he was -- there was a hung jury on several of the counts, and he was not convicted on others. he was acquitted on other accounts. what happened there, one of the big issues there was whether or not in fact the payment made to keep a love affair he was having and a child he had, keep them quiet, whether those payments actually were from the campaign because they started actually long before the actual election, and the woman who made the payments was said to be a longtime friend. in this situation we have cohen saying that the whole purpose of this was to stop the information about these affairs getting out before the election. we have the corporation one which is presumably ami saying they were basically going to catch the stories before they could go out so these payments were for the purpose of influencing a federal election,
and that's the core of the violation, they were for the purpose of influencing a federal election so this is a much stronger case than the john edwards case. >> this is the important thing that might make a difference politically, larry, okay. go with me here, because his supporters and republicans, they aren't saying anything, and they are standing by him because of other things, like supreme court justices and all of those things, right? but if he gets into a position where that can't happen that may turn the tide. how does the president being implicated in conspiracy to commit a felony impact trump's supreme court pick like brett kavanaugh? >> well, that's a good question. i think everybody talks about his hard core support. you know, whatever it is, 30%, 40% of people who will basically watch somebody shoot somebody on the street and not care about it but the ones they have to worry about, all republicans have to
worry about, are that softer support. that support that went over to him, the suburban support. the support that went over to him thinking he would become, quote, presidential. >> more independent-minded voters. >> things that he said on the campaign trail would not be things he would do when he's president. much worse than what he talked about on the campaign trail. i think that republicans have to start being concerned about whether they are going to lose those independent voters, those soft republican voters, and that may affect kavanaugh and how far out on a limb they are willing to go, especially people like susan collins, whether they are really willing to take on their more moderate supporters and say we don't care about this stuff. >> larry, i could listen to you for us. enjoyed this conversation. please come back as often as you like. we'll be right back. ♪ flintstones! meet the flintstones. ♪
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on eight counts. want to bring in our guests. good evening to all of you. is it easy to overstate the significance of this day, juliet? >> it's not. i think it got a lot of us out of vacation, a lot of your analysts. >> that's for sure. >> if you put all the pieces together, i think what today showed was how corruption is a feature and not a bug in the trump administration. manafort known for his deals and corruption for foreign entities was hired not despite that but because of it. michael cohen known to be the fixer against the law often is hired not despite that but because of it. let's not also forget mike flynn, the former national security -- >> is that your mic?
whose mic is that? >> it's your hair. can you move your hair off the mic? left shoulder. >> thanks, guys. >> this is vacation. how is that? >> yeah. >> mike flynn, then former national security adviser whose sentencing was delayed again today suggesting that he's still speaking known for his ties to both putin and the turks is hired not despite that but because of that. today was the day in which anyone still supporting this administration, including the republicans on the hill, have to face the fact that corruption is the feature, you know, of this white house and of this campaign, and it cannot be dismissed. that's how you put all the pieces today together. >> yeah. listen, you know, you guys are raring to go to talk about this, and two of you at least came off of vacation to discuss because you thought that this was a monumental day. harry, i'll bring you in next. eight serious guilty counts against paul manafort and ten counts, they couldn't reach a
verdict. what do you think of the result, and what do you think about the day? >> well, you know, the first thing i want to say about the day is there's just an overall buoyant feeling you get. months and months where objective person you who credit has come to the fore and they are ignored or completely lied about by team trump, and to have a part of the political system, after all, the courts work right, get the truth right, just is a huge breath of fresh air for starters, so it's just this, ah, finally, you know, things are -- some system is working the way it's supposed to. the actual facts i think as juliet says it's hard to overstate. it's very bad news all around. i'll just second her point about flynn because i think flynn has already told mueller everything he has to know, and the reason his sentencing, i think, is delayed is because there are probably more cases that mueller wants to bring that he'll need
flynn for. not information, but we could actually expect more cases coming, and then, of course, there is the manafort trial number two. other shoes left to drop, but just the overall sense that maybe there's some sanity being restored to this nightmarish situation is i think the takeaway feeling. >> not to leave nancy out. nancy, let's bring you in now. before you respond i want you to play president trump's reaction to the verdict today and get you to respond. here it is. >> paul manafort is a good man. he was with ronald reagan. he was with a lot of different people over the years, and i feel very sad about that. it doesn't involve me, but i still feel, you know, it's a very sad thing that happened. it's a witch-hunt, and it's a disgrace. this has nothing to do what they started out. it was not the original mission, believe me. it was -- it was something very
much different, so had nothing to do with russian collusion. >> convicted -- manafort was convicted on eight serious charges but the president can't even admit he did some bad things. totally trying to undermine this mueller investigation. >> you just want to roll back for a moment. if you recall, manafort starts being investigated actually not because of trump or anything like that. he's kicked out of the campaign when undisclosed payments that he received from ukrainian oligarchs surfaced, and then's kicked out of the campaign. at that point he winds up in the russia investigation because as mueller rightly pointed out they were trying to follow the money, and that is to say manafort got a whole pile of money from his ukrainian activities, send it back to the u.s. it went to these various offshore accounts and mueller entirely legitimately says where else did it go? where else did this money from russian sources land? so the -- while the -- while the
conviction was not on those kinds of issues, actually the washington case may be much more directly on that, but it was completely investigate for mueller to follow the money as he did, and -- and manafort, by the way, is facing an enormous uphill battle. i don't know all the details of any appellate issues, but this was not a judge that was against manafort. this was a judge that was helping him every step of the way, so if -- i can't imagine what appellate grounds there are. it's also very interesting that kevin downing in front of the courthouse doesn't say as many defense lawyers would say we are going to appeal. he says we're going to consider our options. >> our options, right. >> i thought that was an interesting statement. >> as i understand, harry, you have your own ideas about conviction or prosecution versus non-prosecution when it comes to the president, indicting versus non-indicting. we'll hear that after the break. don't go anywhere. when i received the diagnoses,
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back with juliette, harry and nancy. so, harry, sitting president can or cannot be indicted? what's the deal? >> okay. well, first it's the -- everyone has pointed to the opinions. they are as jack quin said, fairly soft, not very well argued, but probably mueller would stick to them, except i think there is -- and this is to pick up on something larry said in the previous segment. there is a possibility that mueller could go to trump and demand that he toll the statute of limitations and say you have to permit that to happen so you
could be indicted after. and if trump refuses, the argument would be much stronger for indictment now possibly ceiling i ceiling i sealing it. that's a possible arrow in his quiver. trump says this has nothing to do with collusion. this is a stray financial crime many years ago. this is down the middle high crime misdemeanor the framers would care about. thiss corruption of and influence of the election, and it really does seriously implicate the exact kinds of concerns that we have impeachment for. >> what is this verdict -- >> when you compare it -- when you compare what clint got impeached for, so perjury, terrible thing to do in a civil case for which he is impeached, whereas this is directly having to do with his own election. >> so what does this all mean? what does this verdict in paul manafort mean for president
trump and the russia investigation? nancy, you're speaking. i'll let you finish then i'll go to juliette. what do you think? >> well, i mean the sort of crass way of looking at it is manafort is facing a substantial amount of time. the estimates were 7 to 9 years. the judge could go higher or lower than that, but this is just on this case. then the case in d.c. would follow and he's facing a substantial amount of time. the question is whether he makes the calculation that it is better to cooperate with the authorities than it is, you know, to take this kind of time. and that's fraught in all sorts of directions, but i think that's one issue here. what will he give the -- what kind of truthful information will he give mueller? >> does this verdict prompt manafort to cooperate with mueller, juliette? >> i actually don't know, don, because i had predicted that he would have done this before the first trial, and he didn't. and maybe he was gambling or
hoping for a hung jury. he got part of it, but he got convicted for a long period of time. >> i got you to there, but you're not sure. okay, you don't know what it means. >> i don't know. >> let me ask you this, then. what about flynn? what about flynn sentencing hearing being delayed? >> i think that is sort of -- there is so much noise today, but let's not forget flynn. flynn being one of the first to flip, so to speak, has been speaking for over a year. we don't know exactly what he's saying, but we do know that mueller is lining up potentially other cases. either people were not talking about today, who have been implicate order surrounding the atmosphere, especially regarding the trump tower meeting. jared, don junior, and others. so we don't -- so flynn is being kept on reserve. so, you know, so this is -- as harry was saying, maybe you kind of feel like the system worked today a little bit, but i actually view this as, in disaster management, we often say when the waters recede, run
for the hills. that's a statement about tsunamis. the waters receding is not something to look forward to. it is that something is gaining strength. and i actually feel like today, while it may be -- justice may have been served and maybe the system had worked a little bit, i think between manafort's second trial, flynn and other cases -- and then, of course, let's not forget donald trump's lawyer michael cohen is mentioned four times in the steele dossier. he's not just about sex and porn stars. michael cohen is implicated in the russia case. more water to come and i think we hold on. >> it's got to be the last word. by the way, michael cohen's attorney lanny davis coming up. also stormy daniels' attorney michael avenatti coming up as well. what do they think of all this? we'll be right back. thank you guys.
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