tv Fareed Zakaria GPS CNN September 30, 2018 10:00am-11:00am PDT
this is "gps," the global public square. welcome to all of you around the united states and the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you live from new york. today on the show. president trump spent much of his week at the united nations general assembly criticizing iran. >> the regime is the world's leading sponsor of terror and fuels conflict across the region and far beyond. >> iran's leaders sew chaos, death and destruction. >> i'll talk to one of those leads about the president's charges. iran's foreign minister javad zarif joins me in a moment.
also, how to fight back against vladimir putin. lessons from petro poroshenko, the president of ukraine. his nation is literally on the front lines of russian aggression, and how to handle immigration from across the globe. i'll talk with mexico's president, switzerland's president and new zealand's prime minister on their views about one of the most divisive issues today. but first, here is my take. president trump's speech on tuesday at the u.n. was an intelligent, at times eloquent presentation of his america first world view. he laid out an approach of pursuing narrow self-interest over broader global ones and action over multilateral cooperation. he might not realize as he withdraws america from these
global arenas, the rest of the world is moving on without washington. wittingly or not, donald trump seems to be hastening the arrival of a post american world. take one of his first major actions, pulling out of the transpacific partnership. this sweeping trade deal was an attempt to open long-closed markets like japan, but to create a grouping that could stand up to china's growing might in trade manners. the other 11 tpp countries decided to keep the deal minus washington, which simply means america will not gain access to those markets. japanese prime minister shinzo abe always sweet talks donald trump, but he quickly struck a free trade agreement with the european union giving opportunities to europe that might otherwise have gone to america. as is pointed out in the boom "the empty throne," if you
are not at the table, you're on the menu. when washington steps away, the global agenda is shaped without american input. withdrawing from the u.n. human rights council means america will watch from the sidelines the group's routine condemnations of israel. when trump cuts funding for various international agencies he's playing right into the hands of beijing. which has long sought greater influence in these bodies. similarly, the bizarre and continued absence of key american diplomats, no assistant secretaries of state, no ambassadors to saudi arabia, turkey, south africa, means american interests are not being represented. perhaps the most remarkable new effort to sidestep america has come from the europeans in a reaction to trump's decision to pull out of the iran nuclear pact and reimpose sanctions on iran and anyone who does business with iran. because of the immense strength of the dollar, few major companies are willing to engage commercially with iran. the europeans are trying to
create an economic mechanism that can bypass the dollar. listen to what eu foreign policy chief federica mogherini told me at an event this week. >> we cannot accept as europeans that others, even our closest allies and friends, determine and decide with whom we can make business with or trade. >> she indicated other countries, presumably russia and china might join this effort. will the eu's efforts to come to fruition they would put a debt in the most significant of american financial power, the unrivaled role of the dollar in the global economy. the truth is the european effort is unlikely to succeed. the dollar powers above competitors like the euro. yet it seems foolish for washington to pursue policies that reduce the desire to curtail american power, bypass washington, especially among america's closest allies. the result of america's
abdication under donald trump will not be european dominance or chinese dominance, it will probably be the long run greater disorder, the erosion of global rules and norms and the more unpredictable, unstable world with fewer opportunities to buy, sell and invest around the globe. in other words, it will mean a less peaceful and prosperous world and one in which american influence will be severely diminished. how does this make america great? for more, go to cnn.com/fareed and read my "washington post" column this week. let's get started. ♪ >> while much of america and perhaps the world was paying attention to brett kavanaugh this week, president trump was making a renewed case against iran at the united nations.
on tuesday after praising his own accomplishments, trump's main target in his general assembly speech was iran. then on wednesday trump presided over a u.n. security council meeting. his main target again, iran. at that meeting he made a plea. >> i ask all members of the security council to work with the united states to ensure the iranian regime changes its behavior and never acquires a nuclear bomb. >> of course, the united states used to be party to an agreement that many believed that iran would not require a nuclear bomb but donald trump pulled out of it. what is iran's response to the trump attacks? joining me now is iran's foreign minister javad zarif. pleasure to have you on. >> good to be with you. >> in your conversations, do the
europeans seem determined to find a way to be able to do business with iran despite the u.s. sanctions? >> i think what was clear last week in the general assembly was that -- and in the security council that president trump has managed to isolate the united states. we saw it in the general assembly. we saw it in the security council where 14 out of 15 members endorsed the security council resolution that basically brought the nuclear issue to a close, and the united states was the only country, president trump was the only person in that meeting, chairing the meeting that everybody opposed him, which was interesting. i don't know what was the logic behind even calling for that meeting for that matter. it's not just europe. it's the international community. because this time, and i believe in my 35 years of work at the
u.n., i believe this is the first time that a country is asking other members of the united nations to violate a resolution of the security council and that happens to be a member of the security council that endorsed and basically presented that resolution during the previous administration which calls on all countries to observe the nuclear deal. the united states is now threatening to punish people who observe their national legal obligations. >> you know the power of the dollar. you have been trying to do business with countries that pulled out. can this european mechanism succeed? >> i know that europe is serious. i know the rest of the world is serious about preventing the united states from destroying what amounts to a major diplomatic achievement, one of the few that we have had in many years.
so i think the political will is there. the mechanism is a serious mechanism. whether it works or not is for all of us to see. iran wants to see results. we've said that to our european partners. we've said it to others, that iran needs to see the economic dividends of the deal. >> so because of this assurance, you will not pull out of the iran deal? >> we have been talking to the europeans because one of our options was to pull out of the deal when president trump announced his withdrawal. we chose not to after we were assured by the european members of the nuclear deal as well as by russia and china that they would find ways to ensure iran's interests. now we're looking to see -- they've said all the right things. now they put a mechanism in place. we have to see whether that mechanism works.
>> in your conversations with the europeans, are they irritated with the united states? >> well, i can't speak on their behalf, but they're certainly not happy with the fact that a permanent member of the security council has decided to violate a security council resolution. not only violate it, but punish others for observing it. that's an anomaly. nobody that i know of, except for a few that you know, have accepted that. >> president trump focused in his last week on what he calls iran's destabilizing behavior regionally. he points specifically to your support for activities in yemen, your support for hezbollah in lebanon, support of sending militias into syria, your support in iraq. isn't it fair to say that iran has this very deep influence within the region and is using it actively? >> we are a part of this region. we didn't come 6,000 miles away
from our home to be in this region and to complain about people who are in the region. it's not in the u.s. neighborhood. it is our neighborhood. obviously we have influence. but look at who is sewing instability in our region. president trump himself said we spend -- the united states spends $7 trillion in the middle east. it has only made things worse. what is our role? we have been able to help the people of syria, the people of iran, the people of iraqi kurdistan to defeat isis. that's been on the record. even president trump himself during presidential campaign stated that iran is fighting isis. we have been the serious ones in fighting isis and we have had a consistent policy of fighting al qaeda in afghanistan, fighting
isis in syria, fighting saddam hussein in iraq. president trump's best buddies in the region have a record, almost a consistent record of supporting al qaeda in afghan, supporting the taliban in afghanistan, supporting saddam hussein in iraq, supporting the extremists in syria, and now bombing civilians in yemen. people who are bombing civilians in yemen are not iranians, they're american allies using american planes, american ammunitions, killing innocent children in a school bus. >> you're talking, of course, about saudi arabia. next when we come back, iraq, why the trump administration evacuated a consulate in basra this weex, a -- week, and blamed iran for it. i'll ask the foreign minister when we come back. great question. see, for a full service brokerage like ours, that's tough to do. schwab does it.
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on friday, secretary of state mike pompeo announced the evacuation of the u.s. consulate in basra in southern iraq. the reason, threats against the consulate and its personnel. the threats didn't come from iraq, the statement said, but from iran. this came days after national security adviser john bolton threatened there would be hell to pay if iran harmed the u.s. or its allies. joining me is iran's foreign minister, javad zarif. was there an effort for iran to use militias it has some influence with in southern iraq to threaten u.s. personnel? >> no. and i think the united states needs to abandon this policy of threats. it doesn't work. our consulate in basra was put ablaze two weeks ago.
it was burned to the ground, but we immediately moved to another place. so if we had this problem with our consulate, we cannot control people in basra. we, of course, have influence in iraq, but that doesn't mean we control people in iraq, as the united states doesn't control people in countries with whom it has good relations. so i think mr. pompeo and mr. bolton, instead of making these irrelevant threats that would produce no positive result, they need to look at their own policies. >> what about the attack you made, the threats you issued, the iranian government, when there was an attack in iran and you blamed the united states. do you believe the u.s. is actively engaged in some kind of intelligence special ops to try to unseat the iranian government? >> well, there was a terrorist attack. the u.n. security council condemned that attack. it was carried out by people who
accepted responsibility for that attack speaking from western capitals on saudi-financed television stations. these are facts -- >> but there's no link to america as far as we follow. >> the united states has sought to destabilize iranian government by engaging with various groups that are undermining the security of iranian people including groups that have a record of working with saddam hussein in order to attack iran. national security adviser bolton was a regular speaker, hate speaker in they're vents. president trump's attorney, mr. giuliani, spoke at the event this year. it's only for us to conclude trump, his activities that this government is behaving abnormally, talking to
terrorists who are on u.s. terrorism list up until 2012, have killed americans, and they continue to pose a threat to iranian civilians, and their friends and allies are carrying out operations at the border, not the mek, but groups being supported by saudi arabia. unfortunately we see that saudi arabia has basically conditioned the payment of more salaries to these groups on carrying out operations. you remember that about a year and a half ago the crown prince of saudi arabia stated publicly that they will bring war into iranian territory. that's what they're attempting. the fact that we have a strong defense, a strong intelligence and we can foil most of these attempts does not mean that they're not carrying them. >> let me ask you about another accusation the trump administration has made.
the president says it was illegal for you to meet with john kerry, the former secretary of state. >> certainly i do not have to obey u.s. laws. for secretary kerry to meet with me, i thought that this was not a problem for him. i have met with senators, with former secretaries of state, with former national security advisers, many republicans. >> what was the nature of your conversations with john kerry? >> john kerry -- we spent more time together in the past -- from 2013 to 2015 than we probably spent with any of our colleagues. so he tried to convince me that iran should remain committed to jcpoa. >> the nuclear deal? >> the nuclear deal. that was the nature of the conversation. i believe he has every right to do that. but i do not consider myself a subject of u.s. law. >> let me ask you finally,
president trump has said iran's leaders sew chaos, death and destruction. he said perhaps i'll meet with iran's president one day who i'm sure is an absolutely lovely man. is there any prospect of a trump-rouhani summit? >> for us to meet, it shouldn't be just a photo. it should be substantive. we already have -- a photo op with a two-page agreement is not what we seek. we already have 150-page agreement which we negotiated carefully over many months, and it was not just with another u.s. government. it was with six other countries plus the european union. if the united states, if president trump finds it almost simultaneous -- an immediate thing to just sign and get out of it, why should we waste our
time? why should we waste our time talking again? we are always open for talks. we are always open for dialogue. we have shown it. we have shown that we remain committed to what we sign. but the point is, we need to have reliance on the other side that they will stick to their words, and unfortunately this government does not enjoy reliability. >> javad zarif, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> and we will be back. new family connections, every day.llion that's more ways to discover new relatives. people who share your dna. and maybe a whole lot more. order your kit at ancestrydna.com the a...is stolen.es... hijacked from dreams. pulled from decades of obsession. taken from the souls of artists. we confess. we stole everything we could.
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now for our "what in the world" segment. when countries see terrible atrocities these days, they have one more mechanism by which to try to right the wrong, the international criminal court. for example, on wednesday, five south american countries and canada asked the court to investigate the venezuelan government for possible crimes against humanity. but the court has one chief critic, president donald trump who pilloried it in a speech at the u.n. general assembly the
day before. >> as far as america is concerned, the icc has no jurisdiction, no legitimacy and no authority. >> that came two weeks after national security adviser john bolton gave his first major policy address, a stinging critique of the court which he called ineffective, unaccountable and dangerous and suggested it would, quote, die on its own, unquote. >> after all, for all intents and purposes, the icc is already dead to us. >> what is all this rancor about? the court may soon announce an investigation into war crimes in afghanistan that could implicate united states military personnel. it would be the first time ever that the court has trained its sights on the u.s. which is not a member and does not accept the court's jurisdiction. but the global court has always been a special target of america first conservatives who see it as a worrying sign of creeping global government.
i recently asked the president of the icc chile eboe-osuji, to respond to these charges. >> i think it's important for us to remain focused, all eyes on the pole, on why the icc was created and why it is there. the icc is the only permanent international criminal court that was established to assure some hope for victims of atrocities. >> the court formally launched in 2002 and includes 123 member countries. the u.s. was originally a signatory to the agreement that established the court, but then it withdrew. the court represented hope and an idea that some of the worst crimes against humanity, genocide, ethnic cleansing,
could be punished and perhaps over time deterred, but the court has long been criticized not just by john bolton. in 16 years it's completed just six trials. only four ended in convictions. three more are ongoing and it's spent $2 billion to get there according to an analysis by a journalist in "the new york times." i asked president osuji about that record. >> the argument is not that these are not worthy causes. the argument is that it seems a very, very, very cumbersome process to get at them. >> it is, but justice is a cumbersome process. anyone who tells you it can be done speedily, with respect, probably doesn't know how it works. i was it was benjamin cardoza, a famous u.s. jurist who said justice is not to be taken by storm. it is by slow advances. >> critics say the court is susceptible to political influence largely because most of its cases are referred either
by a member country or the u.n. security council. its investigations depend on the willingness of governments to participate which is by no means given. ironically many of the charges against the court would be partly mitigated if it had the support of a powerful country like the united states. as the political scientist terrence chapman and steven shadowen note in "the washington post." if the united states took up the role and tried to make the court work better rather than undermining it, it would be fulfilling a decades-old precedent that began with american leadership during the nuremberg trials. president argued. >> we do believe america belongs on the icc and miss its leadership on the icc. it is the time it joined the icc. this is the kind of thing they know how to do. when they come to the party, people feel more comfortable about the effort, feel better about the effort when they're
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eight world leaders and three business leaders all in one hour. many of the conversations revolved around two of the most contentious issues of our time, trade and immigration. i'll start with mexico's outgoing president enrique pena nieto who recently saw a renegotiation of his trade deal with the u.s. but told donald trump his country will never pay for a wall. one reason, maybe it isn't even necessary. >> you pointed out that right now more mexicans leave the united states to go back to mexico than go from mexico to the u.s. in net terms, there's actually negative migration from mexico to the u.s. have you made this point to donald trump and do you think he understands it? >> translator: well, this is a fact that is known publicly. it is part of public data statistics. it's a result of the enormous opportunities generated in mexico.
people aren't coming back because they want to leave or because they feel expelled by this country. they're doing it because their families are in mexico and there have now opened new spaces of labor opportunity and productive corporations in our country. we would like the process of migration to be one of choice and not necessity. and i believe mexico for many years, starting from the economic crises it suffered, particularly in the '70s and '90s, resulted in growing waves of migration to the united states in search of opportunities. today with the situation in mexico, people are coming back. and here i think you say the benefit of the economic opening which mexico has pursued and maintained for the past 30 years. >> next up was the president of switzerland, alain berset, one
of the 26 cantones in his country voted by a two-thirds majority to ban face coverings in public. the so-called burqa ban is seen as a backlash against muslim immigrants. according to swiss state media, only 5% of switzerland's population is muslim and most are immigrants from the former yugoslavia and therefore quite secular. i asked president berset if he thought the ban was a good thing or a bad one. >> i think it's not a good thing. but it is also a sign of unease in the population. we have to take that into account. we have to face this situation and maybe to offer other ways to manage the consequences of the immigration in switzerland. i must tell you, i'm working in bern, our city capital and several places in switzerland. i never see a burqa in switzerland. that means it is also strong in
minds, what do we mean about that? >> people are reacting to something that they're not actually seeing on the ground but imagining in their heads? >> i think it is possibly so. >> jacinda ardern, the prime minister of new zealand made news with the first baby of new zealand, the first baby to be brought to the u.n. general assembly hall by a female world leader. neve got her own i.d. for the event. i wanted to dig in to the prime minister's views on immigration. >> you are, it's fair to say, a left winger, proudly progressive. yet you're pro free trade. >> i am pro free trade. >> you are tough on immigration. you want to cut immigration. is that the new winning formula? >> i will have to correct you a little bit. we doubled -- increased the
refugee quota. >> refugees. but you've seen on tough on immigration. >> we're tough on the exploitation of migrants. we want to make sure when someone chooses to call new zealand home, they have a decent job, a decent home and we want everyone who comes to new zealand to enjoy. we're making sure we don't see exploitation in our student market. when someone goes out to work, they're going to pay decent wages and have a decent job for them. >> on the panel were dutch prime minister mark rutte and the prime minister of malaysia, mahathir mohamad, the world's oldest leader at 93. he beats the queen of england who is one year younger than him. i asked him what his secret was. >> our time is up, but i have to ask prime minister mohamad, survival of the fittest. what is your health regime and how can we all manage to stay as healthy and mentally active as you are at your age?
whatever you eat, i want to eat. >> i don't really know, but i do keep to a strict diet. i don't overeat. i do a modicum of exercise and i have six hours of sleep. i think i lead a fairly well regulated life. if you get some disease which is incurable, there's nothing you can do. >> all right. i think the number one thing is pick one's parents carefully. >> it means you and i can still be prime minister in 50 years' time. >> let's just say, if that's the diet that leads you to 90, i don't want a bar of it. >> thanks to all my guests for hosting us all. next on "gps," the man who may be the biggest thorn in putin's side. i'll talk with petro poroshenko.
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for the daily dietary management of ibs. ibgard - daily gut-health gard we know why russia wanted to meddle in the american elections in 2016. one candidate was historically tough on moscow. the other was not. we know why russia wanted to meddle in the brexit referendum. throwing the eu into chaos is one of putin's goals. we know why russia would want to meddle in the upcoming presidential election in ukraine. it is a neighboring nation, was part of the soviet union and the russian empire before that. chaos in ukraine would further destabilize that fragile country. russia holds crimea which it annexed from ukraine in 2014. there are still russian-backed troops in eastern ukraine. the u.s. helped ukraine in its fight against russia earlier this year by supplying kiev with a powerful anti-tank weapon system called the javelin.
what lessons can the world learn from petro poroshenko's fight against russian election meddling? i asked the president just that. >> president poroshenko, pleasure to have you on. >> thank you for the invitation, fareed. >> talk about these russian efforts. both administration intelligence officials and people in private companies say russia is engaged in the preliminary stages of a fairly massive cyber campaign targeted at ukraine because you have upcoming presidential elections. what do you worry about that the russians will do and what can you do to prevent it? >> we have two dangers actually. first danger is putin. me as a president he's fighting with not any others, but fighting with putin because putin understands that the war on the ground on the east of my
country or in crimea during the last four years is not bringing him success anymore because we create the strong and reliable army with the assistance of the united states, because i'm really proud the very efficient cooperation with american, british, canadian, european advisers and he understands that, that the success on the ground is not happening for him. but he expected that the success can happen during the election if he undermines stability in the country by user cyber attack or using fake news or disinformation technology, which is russia spending a billion in their world. >> what kind of disinformation? >> about the -- for example, this is not a russian aggression, this is a civil war. this is not russia who is
responsible for this aggression, and thousands of victims, but there is no russian troops on the outside territory basis. >> this has all been broadcast by russian channels to the ukraine. >> not only ukraine, but throughout the world. >> many, many other things. >> you found a way to essentially ban. >> social media because there was cooperating with the sequence services. money belated by the russian social media. can you imagine that at that time they have about 10% of the ukrainian markets and millions of ukrainian customers were on the strong information attack from the russians. >> these that you have been given are very powerful defensive weapons against
russia. >> this is important symbol symbolically because it was the first lethal weapons designed for the defensive operation, but first lethal weapons we received, first of all, this is open. the military technical cooperation with other nations which is extremely important. >> once the americans do it, other countries will follow. >> absolutely. we start to be the country with whom we can provide them operation because we have under the united nations, the right to protect and defend our own people. now we probably tomorrow will see if the two american ships from the coast guard and that helps us to solve another problem. the russian attempt to occupy. >> what is that? >> this is on the shore of ukraine. and the third important thing,
we would be looking very much to buy the defense system. also we have a danger about the massive attack of russia and with that situation, putin and russia should understand they will pay much higher price if they make a decision to cross another headline and attack my territory. we do not ask that the soldiers protect ukraine, but ask to build up the effective global security cooperation where the united states is a leader. this is our efforts to protect global freedom and democracy. i want to thank the american people no matter if they are republican, democrat, or independent to support ukrainian sovereignty. >> and a columnist for "the washington post" said the strange effect of putin's campaign is to unite ukraine and create a new ukrainian identity.
do you think that's true? >> i can only confirm this phrase. i give you few figures. in the year 2013, the number of ukrainian who supported the transatlantic integration was 16%. 1-6. now it is more than 54%. who do that? yet in 2013, the number of ukrainians who supported european integration, be a member of the european union was 33%. now it's 72%. that was putin. thank you, mr. putin, for making my country much more european and able to protect european values. transatlantic values and we are confident that we do not return to the russian empire. >> pleasure to have you on. >> thank you. m dreams.
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this week in new york, manner heads of state met each other at the united nations general assembly. some like to give one another gifts upon meeting, but one head of state took the practice to a whole new level last week and it brings me to my question. what did the amir of qatar give the turkish state. a gulf island, a jumbo jet, a participating by renoir or a battleship? the demand for dignity and the politics of resentment.
this is one of the leading thinkers and this book is a highly intelligent account of how identity politics developed from plato to the me too movement. it is an urgent article of how to use it as a unified force and not a divicive one. the answer this week is b. earlier this month, the emir presented erdogan with a boeing 747 ai worth a reported half a billion dollars. he told reporter that is when he got wind of turkish interest in purchasing the plane, he canceled the sale and gave away the aircraft and said i give this as a present to turkey. his extravagant gesture does not come out of the blue. after a saudi-led blockade, he
led to closer ties between the two countries. he promised to invest $13 billion when foreign investors are getting cold feet. thank you for being part of the program this week. i will see you next week. thank you so much for joining me from washington, d.c. i'm fredricka whit 2350efield. we are gearing up for another high stakes week on capitol hill into supreme court nominee brett kavanaugh, quickly becoming the pressure point dividing washington. the big question, what is the scope of the investigation into the sexual assault and misconduct allegations against kavanaugh. they told cnn white house counsel don mcgahn is working with republican