tv New Day With Alisyn Camerota and John Berman CNN January 25, 2019 3:00am-4:01am PST
federal workers will miss a second paycheck starting today as the longest government shutdown in u.s. history hits day 35. so the president effectively shut down the government more than a month ago to get funding for a border wall. but there are new signs the president has failed to make his case to the public and even to his own party in congress. the senate failed to pass two measures to end the shutdown yesterday, but the president's plan received fewer votes in the republican-controlled senate than the democratic version. that says something. there's growing frustration behind the scenes. the "washington post" reports a meeting of republican senators got so heated ron johnson told mitch mcconnell this is your fault. now there is a group of bipartisan senators trying to come up with a way out of this. maybe it will work, hope springs eternal even if government paychecks do not. >> well, john, there's one major problem. no one knows exactly what the president wants or what he would sign. those were to problems. he wants senate majority leader
mitch mcconnell and chuck shumer to come up with, quote, a reasonable deal with a prorated payment for the wall. what that means, no one on capitol hill seems to know. meanwhile, cnn can exclusively report that the white house is preparing a draft of a national emergency order to go around congress and earmark $7 billion for the wall. as federal workers go unpaid, wilbur ross had this message when asked about workers who are resorting to food banks. >> don't really quite understand why, because, as i mentioned before, are the obligations that they would undertake, say borrowing from a bank or a credit union are, in effect, federally guaranteed. so the 30 days of pay that some people will be out, there's no real reason why she shouldn't be able to get a loan against it. >> well, problem solved,
according to wilbur ross. >> spoken like a man who wears $600 slippers which is what's reported today in the newspapers. >> now the ceo of the messina group, matt gorman, rcc communications director, he was an aide on the jeb bush campaigns, and sabrina siddiqui. we have an extra big panel this morning because so much is happening. i want to start with your theory because i want to shoot it down got ahead. >> if i were to say you to you, john avlon, that this debate, this bat is ovtle is over, it's decided, it's just a question of how and when the president realizes and and how the president backs and and retreats from it, that's the only question. >> i think it's a question of who will tell the president. because to your point, the
democratic bell do the more votes in the senate than the republican bill. he's not in the strong position. there's a reason they didn't do it two weeks ago. and now this is officially, you know, we got a second paycheck being lost and you've got cabinet secretaries like wilbur ross acting like impersonators not doing the administration any favors. the president not sounding coherent on this either. ultimately the president has to solve this or the senate's going to override. but it's functionally over except for the pain being felt by the federal workers. >> therein lies the problem. i understand that you're using lodge chick h logic which has no place here because president trump deals with things on a gut level, emotional level. he's not known to back down. he's streetitreating this like l estate mogul. s it's like he's almost demanding the first and last
month's rent check on this. but he doesn't back down. >> maybe until this time. i think people are getting restless, john, as you said, nerves are getting frayed. it's kind of like when you're in the backseat of your mom and dad's station wagon, very long trip, you just want to get out. i think you're right, this is a place where president trump has not been in yet. we're used to we all know where if he gets in a jam he changes the subject, he's been very good at it. there's not enough ink on the front page to cover it all. but with the government shutdown, food lines, people missing paychecks, that's something he can't push aside and he's having trouble doing that. republicans have been looking for an escape hatch for a while and people in the white house are realizing that as well. he's now negotiating with himself in some ways and i think he realizes that his standing is diminishing quite a bit. >> sabrina, you were down in washington. there is this bipartisan group of senators trying to find someway out. is there reasonable happy to
they will succeed? >> well, there's no sign that a break-through is emanate because the president still has not backed down interest his demand that any bill to reopen the government include some sort of funding for the wall, whether that's the funding that he's asked for or a down payment, as he put it. so there's a question as to whether or not the president will be willing to accept, perhaps, softer language that simply refers to a border security package more broadly. that is, of course, what democrats had offered in the first place. and there was some frustration between the scenes among senate republicans when vice president mike pence came to capitol hill because he could not articulate what exactly the president is and is not willing to sign by waive legislation. and this, of course, comes as public polgs polling shows that americans are still blaming the president for the shutdown. >> my head almost exploded yesterday when i read that the
president is considering seizing private property to build the wall through eminent domain. i remember when fox news used to go in the age of ales used to go ballistic at any emanate domain issue. that was so third rail, that are was so off the reservation. and the idea that, you know, senator john corn nyn comes outf this meeting and says no one is doing this. >> could you imagine in barack obama proposed emanate domain? it would be a national uprising on the right and no one's even talking about. you've seen the most amazing speech i've seen. michael bennett, senator from colorado gave a speech last night where he lost it over this issue and said if you came to colorado and tried to do that, we would -- we would shoot you at the border. it's insane. and there is no way that they're going to do this.
but let's go back, i think matt had a good point. this is about politics and president trump's numbers are down. if we know anything about president trump, we know that what he cares about is president trump. and that's why he's starting to say how i do get out of this and that's white deal's always cut in the senate. he's going to bring those eight senators up today, they're going to try to figure out thousand get this done. and pelosi is not going to move either. she's setting up the next big fight that the world is about to see which is the debt limit in march and so she cannot move either. the deal going to get cut in the senate and president trump's going to be a bystander because he doesn't know what he wants. >> one of the new elements injected into all of this, we've been talking about empathy and how one of the challenges that this president has had from the beginning is expressing a sense of empathy. that reached a near nuclear level yesterday with wilbur ross and we played that in the beginning here. i think it is worth playing it again and worth playing how the president tried to sort of clean it up. so let's watch that.
>> mr. secretary, there are reports that there are some federal workers who are going to homeless shelters to get food. >> well, i know they are. and i don't really quite understand why, because, as i mentioned before, the obligations that they would undertake, say borrowing from a bank or a credit union, are in effect federally guaranteed. >> local people know who they are when they go for groceries and everything else. i think what wilbur is probably trying to say is they will work along -- >> i'm not sure wilbur was trying to say people can get free groceries, but the president clearly knew that the wilbur ross comments were a problem. and the white house is trying to dig itself out of this empathy think. i thing. i'm not so sure it's working. >> the empathy vote of selling president trump as a kindler, gent letter preside
gentler president, that's not happening. but watching him try to clean up wilbur ross's out of touch hyper elite response, the president dug himself in deeper too. because he presented a vision of this country that all the banks are saying don't worry about 'this month's mortgage payment a, i got you and the grossers are saying don't worry about me, i got you. that world they're talking about may be accessible to overleveraged billionaires in hock to billions with the bank where they cut a deal because they've got no other off ramp, but in main street america that's not happening. he's not setting up conditions for that to happen. he's creating a fantasia for white people aren't being hurt fwi when it's happening all around him. >> we talk to these people ever single day. they're trying to decide to put gas in their car or feed their kids. the idea that wilbur ross was sent out to be a spokesperson on this is so laughable, it shows such a tone deafness, it's not
the first time. we heard that they furloughed workers should consider this a vacation. oh my god, what are they doing over there? >> look, i think it comes off as very callus, i think you're right. you at least have to fake empathy if you can't feel it. had is having a real effect out there. i talked in d.c., there's many drivers i talked to, i'm just trying to get a little extra money for my family. think stepping back when you look in 2020 president trump has to be able to run in the economy. there was recession fears, there's fears the economy slowing even before this. you put the tariffs in, now the shutdown in. i think consumer confidence is already down. if president trump can't run in the economy, that presents a very uphill challenge for his re-election at large. and we've already seen his junior members, the sumner 2011 around the debt limit crisis when our credit rating was downgrading. so this has macroeffects in the economy as a whole. >> and the white house chief economist told poppy harlow it's
not impossible they could see 0% growth this quarter. other side, and there is another another side, is the linguistic gymnastics they have used on this show trying to explain ultimately once the government is reopened, if it's reopened, what they will accept and vote for and support in terms of a border barrier. >> yeah. >> because many, if not most, but many have voted for funding for fences in the past. many support some money for new fencing. maybe not a 30-foot wall but for fencing here. so do you think -- and we understand nancy pelosi and house democrats are going to come forward with a new proposal today, that they need to be more clear, that had this is something when all is said and done there will be some money for some barrier? >> they need to be more clear. i said this last week, we cannot be the party of no. the country is looking at this and saying tell me what you want and tell me how to get out of this. and speaker pelosi laying out a plan about what she will accept
and passing it on the floor in an appropriation bill is what she should be doing and it will give the democrats a place to negotiate from. >> and maybe, sabrina, that's how president trump saves face here as well. maybe can he claim this is a victory in that he forced their hand. he forced the democrats thoohan prioritize border security. that wasn't on the top of their agenda list and he made it rise to everybody's sort of four-alarm fire list right now. >> certainly. i think that based on my conversations with house democratic leadership aides, any funding for a wall or what is perceive as a concrete barrier, that's still a nonstarter. but they are willing to perhaps offer funding that could go towards fencing that's something democrats have long supported or just improving infrastructure and adding staff at legal ports of entry. but the challenge for democrats with the wall is it's in many ways become symbolic of the president's very restrictive agenda on immigration. and the only time that they have
been willing to put forward funding for the wall is in which exchange for permanent protections for dreamers, the young undocumented immigrants who are brought to the country as children. and the president was only willing to put in place temporary protections for dreamers. so unless there was some sort of broader deal on immigration, i don't think you would see democrats acquiesce and support the wall. and if you can't have both sides agree to reopen the government, i'm a little hard pressed to think there's going to be a broader deal on immigration, one of the most polarizing issues here in washington. >> i'm not saying there's going to be some giant deal. what i'm saying is that the public opinion debate is over, that the president isn't going to get what he set out to get 35 days ago. the public -- we're going to to have harry on toward the end of this hour and harry has these polls that aren't ambiguous about where the public is on this. and the president is losing again. and in the senate the president is losing, not gaining support. >> i see your harry and raise you senator michael bennett who
had the diatribe yesterday about whether or not he thinks we're close to this being over. >> you got michael bennett, i'm going all in on sarah sanders? >> what. >> the white house press secretary is coming on later in the show and we're going to ask her. we're going to say what is the white house plan "c" at that point, because the senate just said no to the president's plan. so what is next? >> you win that's a good one. thank you so much for all of your insights. president trump's former lawyer michael cohen will talk to the senate before he heads to prison, but will the public ever know what he has to say? that's next. i hear it in the background and she's watching too, saying [indistinct conversation] [friend] i've never seen that before. ♪ ♪ i have... ♪
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michael cohen will now speak to congress before he heads to prison. cohen's attorney confirmed he will comply with the subpoena to testify before the senate intelligence committee in mid-february. traditionally testimony before that committee is done behind closed doors. joining us now to talk about this development is garrett graff. he's the author of the threat matrix and the war on global terror and anne milligram who say former new jersey attorney general. anne, this is an patrol development because michael cohen seems to be at the heart of so many unanswered questions. and so, of course congress wants to know, so does the general public and so do journalists. and so will we know what he says? >> in this hearing, no. this will be a private hearing, it will be behind closed doors. the senate intelligence committee, that's how they do business and that's the
committee that cohen had lied to. so they're going to have a lot of questions, a lot of questions for him. what i think is interesting, though, he said he'll agree to the subpoena. you have the house oversight committee which would be public and the house intelligence committee can which would be private, but i think they'll also issue subpoenas. think we'll see michael cohen publicly before the oversight committee. >> what's the difference in terms of the public interest? because as anne points out, the senate intelligence committee has its own work to clean up with him. he lied to them, they've got to get him on the record with the truth and why he lied. is there a public interest in seeing michael cohen testify? what do we all get out of him answering questions on tv beyond just the drama of it? >> yeah, and i think, john, you're right. there's a public interest in seeing michael cohen testify publicly, and that's why democrats were trying to set that up in the first place. that was where they were expecting him to testify when he was up there in early february
and that was before donald trump sort of threatened him and his family over tweets and then michael cohen pulled out in the is sort of another example, i think, of the craziness of this situation where because we sort of see this witness tampering playing out in public on twitter, it somehow seems less troublesome to us than if we heard that donald trump was leaving notes under michael cohen's windshield. you know, this behavior is something that we should not look past and something that, you know, should be part of any larger questions about the president's obstruction of his entire investigation. >> you know, anne, michael cohen had said that he didn't want to testify because he feared for his family's safety. and then last night on chris e cuomo's show i think his attorney got to the heart of the matter and something that is pretty chilling about what michael cohen is really worried about. so let me play s 13 for
everyone. >> mr. cohen is concerned that when you're labeled a rat and you're in a federal prison, there could be some danger from other people. >> i mean there are isn't just in a movie script when prisoners know, when inmates know that you're a rat, things don't go well for you. and i find that really unsettling that that's what he's facing next month. >> there's no doubt about that. and remember that being subpoenaed now means that he's compelled to testify. he had initially said he would go voluntarily. it's a little bit different when the government compels you to go, people go or you could be held -- unless you have a privilege like the 5th amendment, you go or you get held in contempt which means you go to jail. so i think now being under subpoena it's a little bit different. but to your point there's no question donald trump, you know, is playing a dgame of intimidation and threats and michael cohen will be in prison for three years. and donald trump knows a lot about michael cohen, michael komen knows a lot about donald
trump. >> this is very serious. >> it's very serious. cohen upon reflection of seeing this and being tweeted and going out said what am i doing? remember he'll be away for three years and so if there's an investigation to his father-in-law and wife, he'll be essentially unable do anything. so i think it's a very scary position to be in. >> anne, garrett, stand by for a moment if you will. we have some major breaking news in the mueller investigation. let's get right to? >> it sarah murray joining us by phone. tell us exactly what just happened? >> we are tlaerng roger stone, who is president trump's long time political adviser was arrested at his home in fort lauderdale this morning. he has been indicted. this has been confirmed. roger stone's attorney as well as the special counsel's office. i believe we also have some exclusive video from this morning since he was indicted it's on seven counts, one of obstruction of justice of an official proceeding.
five counts of false statements and one count of witness tampering. roger stone, of course, as you know has been under scrutiny from the special counsel for years, basically. we've seen about a dozen of his associates interviewed before the grand jury and stone's team had no idea that this was coming today. i talked to his lawyer last night. they said stone heard no word from the special counsel whatsoever. so it was a huge surprise this morning that they showed up and they took roger stone into custody this morning. >> sara, do you know who arrested him? what agency? >> we believe it was the fbi that arrested him at his home this morning. to be honest, i called his lawyer to let him know as soon as we were getting word that stone was take mean it custody and weapon found out about this before his lawyer did. >> all right. one count of obstruction, five counts of false statements, one count of witness tampering. and i should note that they just posted the department of justice just posted this official information just now. and we'll read through it as
soon as we can, but, sara, to the extent that you understand the specifics in these charges, obstruction, false statements, witness tampering, give us some details there. >> reporter: well, we're still, as you pointed out, we just got this information that stone has been take mean it custody, just got this information about the documents. so we're looking over it. i believe that it is probably going to have to do with some of his testimony to congress. again, i have not had the chance to read through these fully, but we know that mueller's team recently requested from the house intelligence committee a copy of roger stone's testimony and we know they asked other witnesses about the possibility that roger stone may have made some false statements in congress. and we're going to dig into this. but it's seven counts. this is no small deal. >> you know, sara, i just opened the document right now and think our viewers are going to have to bear with us as we read this in realtime. among the very first things i see here is during the summer of 2016 stone spoke to senior trump
campaign officials about organization one, which has always been wikileaks, is my understanding, and information it might have had that would be damaging to the clinton campaign. stone was contacted by senior trump campaign officials to inquire about future releases by organization one. explain the significance of that right roe,ger stone and the tru campaign, it seems to me, had conversations in the summer about wikileaks. >> reporter: this is one of the huge questions is whether roger stone had an early independent occasi indication that wikileaks was going to release information that would be beneficial to donald trump and whether he shared that early heads-up with people inside the trump campaign. now, stone has vehemently denied over and over again that he had any sort of early look at
basically anything other than what the american public was seeing since releasing it. but this indictment does suggest that the special counsel's office believes he got some kind of information, was in touch with some folks at the trump campaign about these releases. >> and what does it tell you that he has been indicted on these seven counts by a grand jury yesterday, arrested this morning if people are just wablingi waking up, roger stone has been taken into custody, about false statements and witness tampering. none of those are about the crimes of collusion, this is about the crimes of cover-up. >> but remember what john just read which is really important, which is that there were contacts between he and the trump campaign and organization one wikileaks. so this is a really important point which is that he may have lied about that, the government may be able to prove that he lied about it. that doesn't mean that there wasn't involvement, it means that he didn't tell the truth about what happened. and so what's really important, though, is that if he's lying about those connections, it
means on stethat the government prove those connections existed. >> stone said the government says made multiple false statements about his interactions regarding organization one, again, regarding wikileaks and falsely denied possessing records that contain evidence of these interactions. so, the special counsel tell us they have evidence they have evidence that roger stone had discussions about wikileaks. >> yeah. and, john, you know, i'm reading this document at the same time you are here. and one of the things that stands out to me is in many ways what we're seeing is the other side of that jerome corsi aborted plea agreement from december. if which if you remember jerome corsi roger stone associated conspiracy theorist, he had come, you know, seemingly within hours of signing a plea agreement with bob mueller, then it all blew up and he leaked the
plea agreement he was about to sign. that contained many of the communications that we're now seeing between him and roger stone that are in this new indictment this morning. so in some ways roger stone is now getting indicted for the communications he was having with jerome corsi. >> sara, as you know, there was so much talk about why hasn't roger stone been interviewed, what does this mean? why hasn't he been contacted? so many people have been reached out to by robert mueller's team and we knew about it from our reporting and roger stone was always the question mark. and this morning those -- many of those questions have been answered, the fact that he was arrested as you believe by fbi acts, take mean it custody and indicted on these seven counts. >> reporter: yeah, that's right. i think that roger was -- know that the reason he had not been interviewed was because he was a target of this investigation. but they were also very much in the dark about what he might
ultimately be charged with. they felt like he had not concluded, th colluded. that he had not obstructed justice. think the question going forward is what does the special counsel's office want him for? do they want him on these obstruction of justice charges because they do think he could provide more information about his contact with wikileaks and his contact with the campaign and ultimately they want to put pressure on him and they want him to cooperate? or are they looking to bring these charges against him and to move forward and do they not need his help and his participation? and that's still a very open question there. >> all right, sara, we have to let you go for just a moment to do more reporting and read through this. garrett and anne, stick around. one more thing i want to read and we'll take a quick break because we're going to digest this all. but i want to read and that get your reaction. after the july 22nd, 2016 release of stolen dnc e-mails by organization one, that's wikileaks, a senior trump
campaign official was directed to contact stone about any additional releases and what other damaging information organization one had regarding the clinton campaign. stone thereafter told the trump campaign about potential future releases of damaging material by organization one. and, again, july 22nd here, which is fairly on in the summer, this is conversation and some level of coordination between at least one trump campaign official and stone about the wikileaks hack. >> this is enormously important. if you think about conspiracy and one of the questions robert mueller is investigating is did the trump campaign conspire with the russian government? we know the russians hacked into the e-mails, we know they were trying to influence the election. to be -- to conspire with somebody you have to share their criminal intent, you have to share the intent or goal which would be to release e-mails that were detective present e mental to hillary clinton and to have taken & overt act like making
that call to roger stone and saying, hey, do you know when it's going to happen? what's the timing? i would argue this is probably the closest evidence we've seen. it's almost a three-legged stool. you've got the trump campaign, the russian government with this information. what we've been missing is the piece in the middle and we had a little bit of it from corsi but this becomes -- >> but what i haven't gotten yet from the indictment because we're only on page four is whether or not stone was a charlotteton. whether or not he was having contacts. i haven't gotten to the point where it says he was in touch. wikileaks denies it as it says in here, but stone always said that he did. and so we don't know yet if it actually does all weave together. >> the only thing we know is that robert mueller and his team does know. but we do not know yet, and so we're still waiting for that. >> again, we're talking about stone's communications about organization one. >> wikileaks. >> that's wikileaks. so what did stone say to organization one? did they talk? >> what did they say to him? >> garrett, quick last thought and we'll take a break.
your final thought on all of this we just discussed? >> so what's hard to know at this exact moment and anne sort of hinted at this, is whether this is all that mueller has on roger stone or is this the beginning? because it is notably an indictment that's focused only on really those false statements and that obstruction and it doesn't get into some of those charges that we would expect to see like conspiracy against the united states or campaign finance violations that could point to sort of those larger questions of collusion. so the question is, is that still to come? >> all right, guys, dig in, get a copy of this indictment we're looking at, dig in. we're going to have much more on this. stick around. breaking news, roger stone taken into custody by the fbi. what does this mean for the mueller investigation? more coming up.
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breaking news. we do have breaking news, perhaps major breaking news in the russia investigation. the fbi has arrested political activist trump associate and friend roger stone. cnn's camera was there as it happened. watch this. [ knocking on door ]. >> fbi, open the door. [ knocking on door ]. >> fbi, open the door. >> well, let's bring back anne milligram, john avlon and garrett graff. anne, when you are awoken in the dead of night by the pounding on your door and the shouting fbi open the door, fbi warrant, it gets your attention and that's what happened to roger stone just a few hours ago. and our camera was there to catch it and we now know that he has been indicted about a grand
jury on seven counts of five false statements, one obstruction of justice, one witness tampering. and we're combing through the indictment, which is long and chock-full of new tidbits in terms of, it seems e see, what w about wikileaks, how he was communicating with wikileaks and then communicating with the trump campaign. what do you see? >> what's interesting is that first of all it identifies him as a member of the trump campaign, which is an important point. the second piece is that, to your point, all these communications he clearly denied when he testified before congress. they're basically saying you lied about it. and that means in order to say you lied about it, it means that they have concrete evidence to the croontrary, which confirmin that these conversations or e-mails and attempts to reach out to wikileaks took place. but this is a really important
indictment because it says that, you know, he was a member of the campaign, he lied about his connections to other officials in the trump campaign and to wikileaks potentially and it's a big deal. >> he says he was a member of the campaign until 2015 and then maintained regular contact with the trump campaign through out . just a little bit more on this morning, how unusual is it for the fbi to bang on the door and arrest you here? i think this is the first time in this investigation that they did that on the spot as opposed to indict and have someone turn themselves over voluntarily. why would they do that? >> there's a couple pieces. first of all, one of the questions i would have is did they have a search warrant for his house, right? so they say fbi, we have a warrant, it's clear they have a warrant for his arrest based on that indictment that was returned against him. the question i would ask and the reason why you show up at 5:00 a.m. and you essentially show up and say fbi open the door is usually that you have a search warrant. that's not confirmed, we have no knowledge, but that would be my first question about this. the second point which i think is interesting is we just had
reporting that the cnn reporter spoke to his counsel, to roger stone's counsel yesterday and he was unaware of this. that is unusual. as a rule, when somebody is under -- when somebody is under investigation and the government knows they're represented, at that point they would go through the lawyer and say, hey, we want you to voluntarily turn yourself in. >> that means they think he's a flight risk. >> they could think he's a flight risk. two, they could think that there's evidence or other things that he might want to -- >> he would stash. >> right. we just don't know. but it is not the normal course that you would go through, you know, when someone's represented by counsel and you have reason to believe they would voluntarily turn themselves in. >> listen, reading through this indictment is just stunning. so, john, i'm on page eight, letter f on or about october 1st, 2016, which was a saturday, person number two who we believe is not jerome corsi, do we know who person number two? >> it appears to be randy creed doe. >> who is? >> who. >> a radio host who had been in
contact, a liberal radio host liberal in new york who stone has been friendly with who has interviewed assange on his show. and person one appears to be jerome course. >> i on october 1st, which was a saturday, randy sent stone text messages that said big news wednesday, now pretend you don't know me. hillary's campaign will die this week. in the days of preceding these message, the head of wikileaks planned to make a public announcement on or about october 4th which was reported to be the tenth year of the foundation of wikileaks in the is something to me because roger stone knew stuff before it came out publicly and this helps fill in some of those blanks about where he was getting information before. >> and some of these conversations have been reported before, but crucially some have not. and that's the wheat to separate from the chaff in this indictment. one of the extraordinary things is after the document is released in october 7th relearn that stone receives a text message from a high-ranking
campaign official saying well done. that appears to be new information, right? credit to stone. also, as john mentioned earlier, that in july a senior trump official was directed to contact stone about information about releases and dumps from wikileaks. >> to me, i think the timeline here has shifted to june and july all of the sudden and contacts now on paper between the trump campaign and roger stone about wikileaks. and, garrett, just giant step back here. roger stone is someone who has been associated and friends with donald trump for a long time. they've had a long relationship. roger stone is someone who talked to donald trump regularly during the campaign. i had corey lewandowski on set tell me so much that it would drive him crazy, it would make him nuts when donald trump then the candidate was on the phone with roger stone. he is now under arrest by the special counsel added to the president's campaign chair, add it to the pre's one-time lawyer and fixer, add it to the president's national security
adviser. this is a big list and i'm leaving people out. >> absolutely. and i think, you know, one of the things we have learned at this point is that you have to read these mueller indictments closely. and so, you know, john, you just mentioned on set there that phrase that the trump campaign official was directed to contact roger stone. you know, that's a verb that adds an additional layer of evidence that mueller would have to prove in this, that it's not just that the trump campaign contacted stone, but that there was a conversation within the trump campaign directing that contact. so that's already mueller saying that he has visibility into the decision-making process that went into some of these conversations. >> just to be clear -- >> so we have to be reading these -- >> and i just want to be -- >> we have to be reading these things close. >> i that point, this point on
this verb ang here, our whole team, the cnn legal team is pouring over this document right now. this is the first time we've learned that. this is the first time that we have been told officially by the special counsel's team that a trump campaign official directed contact with wikileaks, directed roger stone to figure out what was going on here. this is new. >> that's zbliright. >> anne, how significant is that? >> it's enormous. i think we've all known or suspected from the trump tower meeting they were looking for dirt on clinton, there was an appetite to get whatever they could on her. but this direction directly back to the campaign along with what i think are pretty specific, when you read through the indictment there's a lot of text messages and back and forth between stone and other folks that he is getting information from organization one. it may not be directly and it may not be exactly accurate, but it does look to be relevant to the timeline we know publicly. >> but just so i'm clear, if
there thewas an orve until trum campaign that said go see what you can find out what wikileaks is going to do, that's a crime? >> where the crime takes place is if they in any way coordinating, working where are asking them to release e-mails earlier, asking them to control the timing of it. just knowing the russians hacked the e-mails i would argue would not constitute sufficient evidence a crime. but here we have -- we're getting closer. a member of the campaign is instructing go find out when it's going to happen. let say the campaign timed something donald trump was going to do around one of those leaks, that gets really interesting as a question of whether someone could be charged. >> what i can't see in the indictment, maybe i'm not there yet or maybe it doesn't exist, is if roger stone was just full of it. >> right. >> and telling the campaign that or if he really was in direct coordination with wikileaks. >> or someone else that he was connected to was in connection with wikileaks. because what i'm seeing from here is that he's saying publicly, and i don't know whether truthful or not, i have
this information. >> but there's an intermediary. >> it looks like there are other people who he is reaching through. and these things are often messy, they're often not -- >> in passing ton it appears direct requests through an intermediary. >> right. >> so stone becomes the conduit who's being back channelled by the campaign back channeling through his contacts to reach wikileaks to make request. >> we have video i believe of the fbi arriving at roger stone's residence in florida to make this arrest. look at the fbi going into arrest roger stone early it morning. they're not messing around. >> no. they're in flap jackets. look at the team of agents that show pup. is very serious stuff. obviously they didn't know what was going to happen when they got there, anne. >> right. >> fascinating to see this before our eyes. garrett graff, again, back to you and some of the holes this fills in here. we don't know who on the trump campaign was in contact with roger stone directing him to find out what he could about wikileaks. but the timeline there june and july, it's presteve bannon.
that's the paul manafort era, certainly donald trump jr. era, jared kushner era, they're all involved in the campaign but it's prepaul manafort who -- i'm sorry, presteve bannon who we know was talking to roger stone much later in the campaign. and this gets the trump campaign directly involved with wikileaks, not necessarily russia, but directly involved with wikileaks in terms of these e-mails. >> absolutely. and i think you were right to begin to zero in on the timeline, because a lot of what we are beginning to see sort of indictment to indictment, timeline to timeline is events transspiring transpierg transspiring in this window. you have them throwing in the towel on the trump tower moss coy codeal on the first word of the dnc hack becomes public. you have wikileaks dropping
these documents timed around the democratic convention. and then, you know, there are a lot of other weird-day similarities that we haven't yet had explained. remember one of the things that takes place in that july time window is that the russian internet research agency is promoting a down with hillary rally for the same day that the dnc e-mails get leaked. and that's something that the internet research agency is promoting weeks in advance. and we don't know whether that was something that was coordinated to hit at the same time that the -- that the dnc e-mails came out. >> one more time -- >> there's a lot of weird stuff happening. >> i just want to play our exclusive cnn video of are the fbi arriving this morning at roger stone's house. i think that this is important for everybody to see, so let's just play one more time as we go to break, what it looked like
outside in the dead of night outside roger stone's home, the long-time trump associate in florida of the fbi team arriving to take him into custody. look at the gear that they're wearing. look at how -- i mean, just look at how serious the fbi is taking this. how many agents there are. this was a surprise arrest. his lawyer didn't know this was coming. roger stone didn't know this was coming. he was sleeping. this is what happened this morning in florida at roger stone's home. we have much more exclusive cnn video that we will play right after we take this break.
custody. we understand he will be afland fort lauderdale later this morning on seven counts, one count of obstruction, five counts of making false statements, one count of witness tampering. again, they arrived before dawn there, before 6:00 a.m. or just after 6:00 a.m., a dozen officers we're told. the fbi agent shouted fbi warrant and you can see it all play out right here. >> this is just remarkable. it's just remarkable to watch, you know, what they call. >> fbi, open the door. >> that said fbi, open the door. and now they're about to say another warning. >> fbi, warrant. >> fbi, warrant. this is called, you know, are the grab shot in the vernacular and it is remarkable to watch this all unfold. >> you can see roger stone right there a little bit behind that door. yes, standard operating procedure for the fbi to show up heavily armed. >> in riot gear.
>> like this. but they didn't do this for other people connected in the investigation. so it is remarkable that they did this without warning, without any indication of stone's lawyers beforehand that this would happen. we don't know also if they executed a certainly warrant on the house. >> the reason they do that is because they fear the person's going to be a flight risk so they wanted to do it under the cover of darkness with a surprise or they think there's so much evidence inside the room, inside the house that they don't want to give anybody a lead time, a heads up to try to hide some of that evidence. that's what we just watch this morning unfold at roger stone's home in florida. >> we have a 24-page indictment in our hands right now. we is have this exclusive video. we're pouring over it. there's a lot of new information about roger stone and the russia investigation and trump campaign contacts and roles in all of this. we're going to have much more just after the break. i hear it in the background and she's watching too, saying [indistinct conversation]
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news. long-time donald trump associate and former adviser roger stone has been arrested and indicted by a grand jury on charges brought by the special counsel roblt robert mueller. our cnn cameras were there exclusively when fbi agents, you can see them in riot gear approached stone's house before sunrise at a round 6:00 this morning. they raided his home and they arrested roger stone. here is a moment of that arrest. [ pounding on door ]. >> fbi, open the door. [ pounding on door ]. >> fbi, warrant. >> the indictment reveals stone saw the stolen e-mails from wikileaks that could damage donald trump's opponents at the direction of a