tv New Day With Alisyn Camerota and John Berman CNN March 8, 2019 5:00am-6:01am PST
making a decision that leaves people scratching their heads. >> what happens in the clinton years, when crimes were committed, the president should be held accountable, then how do we go about it. the president was held in contempt by united states district court judge for obstruction of justice. so this can be dismissed as moral justice. president clinton committed t m crimes. >> obstruction of justice. we don't know how much robert ra mueller will go into that. you cannot indict a sitting president, but if you can't charge someone you don't put it in the mueller report, you won't
release, publicly invest -- if it is a public matter, don't the american people deserve to know what evidences that been collected about obstruction of justice. >> i think bill barr, i nearly said bob barr, made it clear he wants to be as transparent as he can, consistent with the law. he has to look as a very able attorney general, and then he says i need to be or i want to be as transparent as i can. >> but you said you need the facts. you're not going to ans wer alison if you have seen a pattern because you need to see the facts. don't you need to see the facts for the process that exists now, the only process that exists now, so it can play out.
>> i don't doubt that the facts will eventually come out. they may come out through the attorney general's report. we know the system. bob mueller sends his report to the attorney general. that is, under the regulations, a confidential report. the other thing that is weighing in the balance is let's don't impugn reputations without being -- >> understood. >> you indict or you don't indict. >> if you can't indict the president, you need the evidence. you need the evidence so the body that can make the judgement on it can do so with all of the investigation that is available. >> and the house of representatives has lots of power to seem that we're talking about what bill barr can and should do with the report.
we don't want them with all of the -- >> but judge i'm talking about before we get there, what michael cohen has testified to under oath, what we saw with our own eyes, saying he was pressured by president trump to move to lie to congress about the trump tower moscow project, so i'm just talking about the facts as we heard them before we get to mueller. >> one witness does not a case make. we had judge bill watt saying the president of the united states was involved in the white water transaction.
because the evidence was not strong enough we could not bring these issues. allow the process to run so we know is there corroboration? is there credibility? you have a witness that lied to congress, right? and you have to work on corroboration? how do we corroborate that. so don't go to the jury room and return the verdict before you have the evidence. michael cohen pleaded guilty to crimes that the southern district laid out in detail and the southern district also has other evidence for this. they have ami with a sworn affidavit saying this was for the sole influence of the campaign. this is no longer hypothetical, this is decided law, yes? >> no, i don't see it as decided law. i know he made what he said he
did. however, the key -- >> the southern district said he did, but that just depends, you allow the process to run out. what you're saying is, john, these are serious matters, i don't dispute that. they're serious matters. i also say don't rush to judgment and say "we're ready to return a verdict." i think that is wrong and unfair. >> i find it a little rich to hear that we should not impugn people's reputations before we know all of the facts because i lived through the president's reputation being impugned by many people, by members of the independent council staff. i think there is an important comparison to make here and i would be interested in judge star's view. donald trump acted way beyond the pair. president clinton did not fire the head of the fbi, he did not want the head of the fbi in
office and thought he had a political agenda against him. he didn't fire him. the president didn't go out every day and call this a witch hunt and say there was nothing to this. the president went about doing his job. president clinton didn't 10,000 times tell lies and mislead the public. there is no defense of that, but to try to compare these things i think that is the strength of the axio stories. donald trump is using the branch to protect himself and cover up what he has done. and in the case of president clinton, he let this thing go, the idea that we sit here 20 years later saying the president committed crimes, the president
admitted mistakes, i don't believe he committed a crime. the one thing we haven't seen from president trump is any acknowledgment, and president clinton went out and apologized for this before the report came out, before it had came out. he acknowledged them as things he had done young i think there is allegations and a foreign government may have
delegitimized the investigation. >> a very important set of charges have been brought against 13 russian individuals and two organizations. i read those indictments carefully. not one word to suggest collusion. they have behaved badly and they should be brought to justice. we have seen no evidence of collusion. >> joe is talking about obstruction of justice. if you believe all of the tweets about a switch hunt, do you consider that obstruction of justice about this investigation. >> we did not charge president clinton with obstruction of justice because of an entire army he had. the president was very clever
and shrewd because others did the dirty work. we were constantly attacked. and our integrity was in tact, but president clinton was able to rise above it. >> what about this example? >> and what president trump refuses to do is follow the clinton model. i do not consider that obstruction. when you look at what the law of obstruction -- you can have the moral view of what obstruction is, and you can have the legal view. what constitutes the crime of obstruction of justice -- >> but hold on a second. hold on joe. >> but president trump went on television -- >> there is no corrupt motive that has been defined by the supreme court of the united states and in this room i have
said don't be so broad minded saying this constitutes the obstruction of justice. it doesn't do what the president has the power to do which is tire the head of the fbi. >> let me speak for everyone in america that didn't go to law school, president trump went on television even after -- two days leading up to that interview, and he lied act where he fired comey. he directed rod rosenstein to write a phoney letter. he said i fired him because i wanted to stop the russian investigation because i think the russian investigation is a witch hunt. there may be in some narrow legal place where that is not obstruction of justice, to the rest of us it is obstruction of justice on the face of it. >> but he didn't shut down the investigation. that's one of the key things. he could have said this investigation -- >> he then tried to remauove an
fired his attorney general. what else do you need to see this is obstruction. what else do you want to see as a prosecutor here? >> you need to see action that results in the investigation, not being able to be carried forward, and bob mueller as we know has done a very thorough owe job carrying out the investigation. no cessation of funding. it was incredibly unwise to say these things, but being unwise doesn't constitute a crime. >> so just the effort of firing them doesn't change it either. >> no, i think that is now considered the better view. very few people are saying that firing james comey, which he had the authority to do is an obstruction of justice. i view that has a huge challenge. >> sitting as the independent
council, do you think he would have said he has every right to do that? >> i hope i would have. >> article two of our constitution gives the president authority over the executive branch. he could have said i want this investigation to stop. period, full stop. that races an issue of potential obstruction of justice. >> do you have the same view of nixon firing archibald cox? was that in his power? >> absolutely and that was not even a basis of the charge in the house of representatives. and i think it is really perilous, joe, i do, to try to use the article 2 power and say you have exercised the authority you have, you sacked jeff sessions, and i think that is an
obstruction of justice. i believe that is a very, very terrible intrusion into the authority of the president. let's look for corruption, was there bribery or a sell out to a foreign power? and that sort of thing. but not just the exercise of his authority. >> he has the power to pardon. he is dangling a pardon, is that a potential obstruction of justice? >> no, i think it could be. it could be. but once again here is a power given to the president of the united states, absent some issue of bribery, we have seen governors go to jail for the sail of pardons and things like that. whoever the president is, to say that constitutes a crime, it may constitute a impeachable event, right? to use the pardon power in a way that the united states views as
an abuse of power. >> your thoughts? >> speaking for americans that don't wake up every morning reading article two, i mean we have great lawyers in the country for a reason. there are two tides to every issue. the president may not seem like he is obstructing justice, but it is because he is doing it in plain sight. i will take the judge's view that he has right to do that, but i will not release the idea that it is an abuse of power, it is for the president to do everything in his power to stop an investigation of himself. >> can i also say because you were talking about soluticollus
before. collusion is not a crime. there are other crimes around it, conspiracy could be, collusion with a small c, not a crime here, you say no evidence and i go back to the donald trump junior meeting. it happened in plain sight. the agreed upon facts are, and we have seen the e-mails that donald trump junior was offered dirt on hillary clinton that he was told was for the russian government, that is why he went into this meeting. he said if that's true, i love it. that in and of itself, small c, is that small c collusion? walking into that meeting expecting to recieve dirt from the russian government on hillary clinton? >> i don't think it is a crime. you can question it and condemn it. >> that wasn't my question. my question to you is that collusion. we know collusion is not a crime. is that willingness to get information and work with at a certain level the russian government to get dirt on
hillary clinton? >> no, i don't think it is solutio collusion. i don't admire it, but someone says i have information on an opponent, unless there is an arran arrangement. it is unwise, but i don't see it part of the crime. >> it is part of the counter intelligence investigation, because the value and knowing whether or not a government had sw sway over the son of a presidential candidate. >> you absolutely want to gather all of the facts in terms of the depth of the relationship and so farther. this appears to be a one off as opposed to collusion which is let's get together and we're going to work together for a particular purpose kwh ask to influence an american election. bob mueller had 20 months or so
and he has not made that allegation. >> there is people that have pleaded dlt to lying about contacts with russia. people who have contacts with russians, many of those have nothing do with the electoral process. i think they had everything to do with the electoral process. they had multiple goals here. one was for putin down they didn't want hillary clinton to be president. i think from a policy point of view, they wanted the sanctions lifted on putin's cellular phro. that is what they brought up at the meeting in trump tower. that is what they wanted to talk about when jared kushner tried
to set up a back channel. if it is just a lei manlayman's term. i am a political hack. i have been in five campaigns. i can tell you without reservations that 99% of the people i worked with and that i opposed. if they got a call from a russian operative, first they would go to the general council of the campaign they would say what do i do about this. i would love to have information on my opponent but i don't want to be ensnared with this. the fact that paul manafort, jared dukushner, and donald tru junior went into this meeting without any lawyers and we will find out if donald trump the president knew about this, and if it raised a red flag about
what was going on. do we know the extent of this? based on the catch 22 that we're in now, maybe not. we know the results of the counter intelligence. but the very fact that the department of justice opened a counter intelligence investigation of a presidential campaign telling us there is something very seriously wrong going on there. >> joe lockhart, judge star, i feel like this went well. >> i would just say i think all of this goes, and i'm glad you put it in political terms in terms of the exercise of judgment. was it poor judgment? should it have been reported? that's fair, but i reject to the constant criminalization of conduct saying a ha, bring on the grand jury and the indictments, i think that is wrong and do it too much.
>> let's hope that the information comes to light in the mueller report. >> first you seen is the first episode of the worst buddy film series you will ever seen. we have a lot to discuss after this pretty remarkable discussion, stay with us. so...your student loans are holding you back? it's time to refinance with sofi. with lower monthly payments, you could save big. see your rate in two minutes.
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so we support farmers like sergio. who use natural compost. made from coffee pulp. it helps keeps the soil healthy. and the coffee delicious. for the future of his community. that's sergio's neighbor, leo. sergio wants grandkids. which is making this very interesting. all for a smoother tasting cup. green mountain coffee roasters. packed with goodness. you see clear skin. cosentyx can help people with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis find clear skin that can last. don't use if you're allergic to cosentyx. before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. an increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor about an infection or symptoms, if your inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop or worsen, or if you've had a vaccine or plan to. serious allergic reactions may occur. how sexy are these elbows? ask your dermatologist about cosentyx. all right so we just wrapped up an extraordinary interview
with ken star and they were talking about the clinton investigation and the mueller investigation, andle relevance of all of this including what it it means for president trump. every time we talked about the mueller investigation it could go back to 20 years ago. joining us now is david gregory. thank you all for being with us. i have to say while that discussion was going on largely we were just watching. >> that was a spectator sport. >> i cot a glimpse got a glimpsf you, and your jaws were dropped. >> yeah, i wrote a book about the lieu win ski case, but it is interesting to see, you know,
the aggressiveness that judge star reflected during his t tenure. he knows how to draw distinctions between things, but the matter of perspective did seem different to me. >> david gregory? >> jeffrey has covered, not just the impeachment scandal, but going back to iran kantra, how partisan the independent council becomes and how it is viewed around the surrounding activity. the chances are they will find something. that was true of the special prosecutor when they looked into
the valley plain episode. i think this business of moral judge and the political take away, what was not included was the fact that if that happens today, he would not have survived. having an affair with a 21-year-old intern in the white house would have been judged differently? and they look the other way because they see redeeming values and -- >> that is true, that is true, but there is also similar that there is lots of people that support trump that have reasons for looking the other way on that. part of that is because bill clinton survived it. and there is a sense of we kind of already lived through this and we're past it.
>> david is right, you're on the couch, watching this soap opera between two formidable opponents and a master class in how to talk about these two historical events. i was taking pictures, i was eating it all up, but the missing piece was monica. no one brought up the impact all of that had on monica, and had there been a monica in today's soap opera, i think this would have been different. i think joe lockhart is right to compare it is apples and oranges. and i think david is absolutely right. it's not just that liberals looked the other way, but many gave bill clinton cover. they excused what he had done and because of me too and so many other factors, i think we would look at that very differently. >> we're in a totally different
era. >> if he had been accused of doing what trump had done, it would not take 1100, it would take one or two and we would be having a different conversation then as well. >> and what southern district has on paper already. the agreed upon facts here, it says that donald trump districted michael cohen to pay off a porn star to cover up affairs because the release of that information would impact the election. >> there is already conclusion to the cohen stuff. >> right, and that is just one thing out of so many facts in this investigation that is are widely nope. i think our politics have grown more triable.
donald, the most honest thing that donald trump said in the campaign is that he could shoot someone on fifth avenue and his supporters wouldn't care. donald trump can do whatever he wants and that's how our politics work now. we always talk about polls, maybe he is up to 36 or down to 48, they really have not changed. people are locked in in their views and facts are irrelevant. >> i think jeffrey would agree with this point, one of the problems with a special council, and this kind of investigation, is that unlike what happens mostly in the rest of the criminal justice system you can't divorce politics from it. all of these decisions have an
element of politics to it. the way they charged him the way they did. the political dimension in terms of squeezing him. and then we look at the sentence by judge ellis and say that was too lenient. elizabeth warn is also trying to score certain political points, so there is so much politics in this because at the end of it, all of the investigation by a prosecutor and a team of prosecutors, all funnels in to a political process. there is an entirely political process. >> i just could not agree more. whether or not we're looking at the clinton saga or the current saga, but the voters are dug in,
they're baked in, and if we're looking at a bad week for donald trump, people like me that oppose the president, we are irreleva irrelevant, we're the minority. we are no longer the party, but i think we're the minority and i think most people are saying, judge star says he does not agree with the justice department guidelines. >> his staff researched that and came to an opposite conclusion. i don't think under article two you can indict a sitting president. i don't think it is permissible that someone elected by the entire country can sit there in
court every day listening to evidence against him, but this is a live constitutional debate. again you have a conservative like ken star that believes in broad executive power concluding that at that time, that a president can be dieted, again you know we always see these facts through a political lens. >> well, quickly, do you think that if we look at where an investigation starts, the fact that it lead to monica lew win ski and -- lewinsky and mrnl, do you think that is wrong? >> no, i think prosecutors are entitled to see where it leads and you see where it turned into monica lewinsky. how that was handled is a separate question. >> can i just tell you we have been waiting for a statement
from the president. both the judge and the lawyer in the paul manafort case stated loudly for the world to hear that there was no collusion with russia. but the witch hunt hoax continues as you now had these statements to house and senate intelligence. >> the disgrace of how judge ellis handled this case from the day of the indictment all of the way through is pretty extraordinary. it is good for the president, and you know he is wide to cite it because it is helpful to his position. >> that just raises so many more questions. thank you, david, make sure you watch s.e. cupp unfiltered tomorrow. outrage as paul manafort gets lets than two years for tax
evasion and bank fraud, will he plan to pardon his former campaign chairman? we'll discussion that, next. ♪ [friend] i've never seen that before. ♪ ♪ i have... ♪ has been excellent. they really appreciate the military family and it really shows. with all that usaa offers why go with anybody else? we know their rates are good, we know that they're always going to take care of us. it was an instant savings and i should have changed a long time ago. it was funny because when we would call another insurance company, hey would say "oh we can't beat usaa" we're the webber family. we're the tenney's we're the hayles, and we're usaa members for life. ♪
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. the former trump campaign chairman paul manafort will serve less than four years that include cheating on his taxes. snpsing calls for 19 to 24 years. angus king is joins us now, thank you for being here, how did you see the manafort sentencing less than four years in prison. >> if i was on the jury in that case i would say why did they take months out of my life for this. he was found guilty on trial for eight felonies stretching over a number of years, he didn't kroop rate, and most shockingly to me is he didn't express any remorse. his remorse was about getting caught, not about what he did.
but some of the people he defrauded were you and i. i just find it an astoppishing sentence and i can assure you that every defense lawyer is america is going through cases and we will be flooded with stories of people selling an ounce of marijuana or stealing quarters from a laundry room with an equal sentence. we talk to talk about the disparities between white collar crime and street crime. >> do you think he was intentionally setting himself up for a potential pardon from the president? >> well, that is really hard to say, but the president's reaction that you just read before the break about no collusion, this trial wasn't about collusion. that was the other thing that
surprised me. the judge made that comment yesterday from the bench when the trial had nothing to do with it. this case doesn't prove there is no collusion because that was not the subject of the trial. i think the president has the absolute power to pardon, but the question becomes what is the intent? i think everyone would say the president can't issue a pardon if he is paid 100,000, so if he is thinking it will keep him out of trouble himself that is getting close to the line. >> i want to ask you about something that troubles you. the president has a habit of delegitimatizing things he doesn't like, from the fbi to the press, and now you worry he is planting the seeds to
delegitima delegitimatize. something else. the dems are trying to win an election they know they cannot legitimately win. what do you hear there? >> he said that and he said it in the last campaign, but he said it even more explicitly that if he loses, it is rigged. i can't tell you how concerning that is. one of the fundamental premises is a presh part of it, and for him to say if i don't win it is rigged, or to delegitamize it,
and it is a gift to putin. they want to delegitimatize democracy. that is their came plan. for the president so say something like that, and say only 1% of his base acts on it, the danger is violence. you have a million people who are feeling the president is telling them this isn't legitimate. you better take up arms. this is one of the most dangerous things that i think has happened in this extraordinary period. >> i think it is really important that you're pointing out that peaceful transfer of power should be -- >> yeah, alison, i have a question for you, really? >> really, nickelback? >> yes, this is what the congress took up yesterday as you know, senator angus king, i'm going to go with that
meaning you have it on your play list, thank you for being on new day? >> political posturing there from senator king of maine there at the end. >> was the judge too lenient on paul manafort? i hear it in the background and she's watching too, saying [indistinct conversation] [friend] i've never seen that before. ♪ ♪ i have... ♪
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a cfp professional is trained, knowledgeable, and committed to financial planning in your best interest. find your certified financial planner™ professional at letsmakeaplan.org. we have a little breaking news on the economic front. new numbers from the bureau of labor statistics on jobs. just 20,000 new jobs in the u.s. economy. that is a very low number, the lowest in a long long time.
the last few years, frankly, a jobs machine in the united states, but february not strong at all. the unemployment rate did tick down to 3.8% as fewer people were looking for work. joining me now, a republican member of congress, he is on the intelligence and wanes and means committee. i know you would like to see a higher number. >> we have certainly been on a role as a nation. we have seen unemployment going down. as a former employer i think as you're growing your business and maybe as a nation, that's where we are and we have to take a deep breath and allow yourself to do that. certainly i would rather see jobs created than jobs lost. but we always try to seek to get higher numbers. that's part of what we're trying to fliaccomplish. >> and we will both be digging through the numbers, we're talking about the economy, there
are glaring numbers about the budget. a shortfall, the revenue of about 100% but about 2% collected in the first quarter of this year. 77% over last year, does this concern you? >> it concerns me greatly. it has and it is the reason why i first ran for office. the reality of things that we raised today in our mandatory spending. we talk about discretionary spending and how we're going to spend summon there. the mandatory spending has to be addressed about 50 years ago. today it is about 70 and they predicted in about 2030 it would be all of our -- education, all of these things that we value so much. so to be realistic, both sides of the aisle say we have to
start looking at spending. >> mandatory spending is part of it, decisiiscretionardiscretionr spending is up. medicare, social security, those are the numbers yesterday. revenues are down about 2%, so you're bringing in less among. >> yeah, that is a concern and we'll see how it plays out at the end of the year and how we go into our tax season. 47 months in prison, far less than the recommended sentence of 19 to 24 years. >> first i'm a doctor, not an attorney or a judge. i would have to really sit down and look at the numbers and see is this didn't with crimes like this and the sentencing that
takes place. >> you are on the intelligence committee that heard testimony of this weekend and last weekend from michael cohen. i know republicans, and you're one of them, you have questions about whether or not he lied to the joefr sight committee when he said he never asked for a par don, correct? do you think he lied? >> i can't tell right off of the bat whether or not he lied, but there was concern that he would never ask for for a pardon, but we have seen reports where he supposedly had asked for a pardon. we will stipulate whether or not he harassed congress. legal representation, just leave that aside. the president, and in some
cases, we're discussioning this issue, is it of concern to you. are there discussions i wasn't there obviously, and neither were you, and at the same time was it michael cohen saying is there any chance i can get a pardon. i will tell you that the interviews that we had with michael cohen in the week, i hope you can get the transcription from that. i'm sure you would too. >> last question to you, congressman, i know you care deeply about the family from ohio, do you they kim jong-un knew? do you appreciate the president saying that in front of the world. >> i have deep respect for the family. we're all saddened by this tragic event, this is no doubt
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the new jobs report. just 20,000 jobs created in february. the fewest since september 2017. the unemployment rate fell to 3.8% as fewer unemployed people looked for work. president trump's former campaign chairman paul manafort sentenced to prison. the call for 19-20 years. but sentenced to four. >> michael cohen is suing the trump organization. cohen claims the organization broke its promise to pay his legal bills after he began cooperating with federal prosecutors. moments ago unmanned spacex capsule crashing down on earth. demonstrations and celebrations taking place all around the world for international women's day. this year's theme calls for a more gender balanced world. >> and you and i were -- as a result. >> yes. >> go to cnn.com/new day for all
the latest. >> we've covered a lot. >> i feel we've really put in our time today. >> nevertheless there is breaking news. the a jobs report a really strangely low number. we need to find out much more about that plus the president's new response to the paul manafort sentencing. that's all next. i can't believe it. that we're playing "four on four" with a barbershop quartet? [quartet singing] bum bum bum bum... pass the ball... pass the rock.. ...we're open just pass the ball! no, i can't believe how easy it was to save hundreds of dollars on my car insurance with geico. yea. [quartet singing] shoot the j! shoot, shoot, shoot the jaaaaaay... believe it! geico could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. believe it! geico could save you fifteen percent in the time it takes to brew a cup... here's the story of green mountain coffee roasters costa rica paraíso. first, we go to san marcos, costa rica. and meet sergio. that's his daughter, maria. sergio's coffee tastes spectacular. because costa rica's land is spectacular. so we support farmers like sergio.
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very good friday morning. i'm jim sciutto in washington. as the busy news day. president trump about to leave the white house to survey tornado damage in alabama. blamed for killing at least 23 last sunday, the president may talk to people on his way out. if so he's sure to be asked about the surprisingly short prison term to paul manafort. paul manafort getting less than four years for a series of financial crimes that under federal sentencing guidelines should have gotten him a minimum of 19 years in prison. but we begin this hour with breaking news we just learned moments ago that the economy added just $20,000 jobs last month. that is a fraction of the number the economists expected. big drop from last month and recent months. alison kosik joins