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tv   Fareed Zakaria GPS  CNN  March 10, 2019 10:00am-11:00am PDT

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or this john smith. or any of the other hundreds of john smiths that are humana medicare advantage members. no, it's this john smith. who we paired with a humana team member to help address his own specific health needs. at humana, we take a personal approach to your health, to provide care that's just as unique as you are. this is "gps," the global public square. welcome to all of you in the no matter what your name is. united states and around the ♪ world. i am fareed zakaria. no matter what your name is. ♪ today on the show, under pressure. saudi arabia is under increasing pardon the interruption but this is big! pressure to come clean on the now with t-mobile get the death of jamal khashoggi. samsung galaxy s10e included with unlimited data for just $40 a month. a u.n. council called for all available information to be disclosed. will it mean anything? benjamin netanyahu is under pressure politically and legally. an indictment is looming and he might lose power in next month's
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election. can he pull off a victory? and with the deadline for brexit looming, british prime minister may too is under pressure. a major vote this week in parliament will tell a lot as breast cancer. the final deadline looms just 19 we thought that we would travel to days away. cancer treatment centers of america. we left on day one feeling like we're tick tock, tick tock. gonna beat this and that feeling is priceless... but first, here's my take. visit special counsel robert mueller's report, which is expected to be delivered today attorney general soon, will end up being a great test of american democracy. how will we handle it in a nakedly partisan fashion, or as a way to bolster our constitutional system? gonna beat this and that feeling is priceless... we really pride ourselves >> ton making it easyautoglass, it's been much noted that we are now living in an era of ill to get your windshield fixed. >> teacher: let's turn in your science papers. liberal democracy. >> tech vo: this teacher always puts her students first. popularly elected governments >> student: i did mine on volcanoes. and leaders in countries as >> teacher: you did?! oh, i can't wait to read it. varied as venezuela, poland, >> tech vo: so when she had auto glass damage... hungary, turkey and the philippines are undermining she chose safelite. with safelite, she could see exactly when we'd be there. independent institutions, violating important norms and
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>> teacher: you must be pascal. >> tech: yes ma'am. accumulating unbridled power. >> tech vo: saving her time... in america, the story is mixed. [honk, honk] >> kids: bye! >> tech vo: she can save the science project. the political system has >> kids: whoa! functioned poorly. >> kids vo: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace ♪ checking president trump's excesses only along partisan lines. on the other hand, some american institutions have pushed back. the judiciary has maintained its independence. the fbi and the other organs of the justice department have demonstrated they serve the country and constitution above the current occupant of the white house. the press has by and large been itreat them all as if, they are hot and energized. able to withstand the stay away from any downed wire, extraordinary pressure of a call 911 and call pg&e right after so we can both respond out president who almost daily attacks him. but the greatest check on trump and keep the public safe. has surely been the public itself. placing some limits on the president's behavior by voting in the mid terms and expressing itself through opinion polls and protests. my faith in people power has been strengthened in watching events 7,000 miles away in india. there too are democratically elected leader modi, accumulating power in case that
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have been at times authoritarian. in this case, the pressure he exerted on the bureaucracy and the judiciary often worked. so did his intimidation of the press, which while once fiery and free has essentially become a hand maiden of his party, the pg&e wants you to plan ahead by mapping out escape routes bjp. and yet the bjp recently and preparing a go kit, in case you need to get out quickly. received a drubbing at the for more information on how to be prepared and keep your family safe, visit ballot box, despite commanding advantages of media coverage, money and local officials, india's dominant party lost several key state elections a few months ago. why? in a word, diversity. in a new book on his quarter-century observations of indian politics, sharma notes the dominant reality of politics is diversity. india's compromised of dozens of linguistic communities, groups, class, tribes and classes. his company divides india into nationalism brought us brexit. it also ushered in donald trump. it threatens the stability of 14 sub regions. that compares with the 20 the entire european project.
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and it has allowed for the rise countries of the middle east, which get put by the company of autocrats around the world. into just four groups. the question is, why? this diversity has proved to be why nationalism? india's greatest strength as a my next guest answers the democracy, ensuring that no one question in a brilliant new party gets too big for its foreign affairs article, "this boots. in the upcoming national is your brain on nationalism." election, modi has immense advantages, money, a large robert sepulski is professor of parliamentary majority, a fawning media and a slew of expansive populist spending biology and neurologicy at programs to buy people's votes. stanford. welcome, professor. even then, recent polls >> thanks for having me on. >> so you say that the idea of indicated his coalition would fall short of a majority. sort of separating ourselves things have changed because of into kind of -- an us versus a india's military tit for tat them, finding another to with pakistan, which modi has used to push an aggressively dislike, is almost hardwired nationalist line. into our brains. this strategy might work, but explain. >> when you look at the still he will likely return to office with a reduced majority. in the book "how democracies neurobiology of how we process us versus them, there's some die," steven levyitski stays incredibly hardwired stuff going on. flash up faces of people that diversity forges tolerance somebody has categorized as either an in group or an out crucial to democracy's success. they argue, for example, that group, and in a fraction of a
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the republican party has become second, your brain is so rigid, intolerant and abusive differentiating between them. if it's a them, parts of your of this norm, in part because it brain that are related to fear, has become an ethnically and racially homogenous party. aggression, disgust, activate. parts of your brain that most western countries are going normally process faces don't to become more diverse. that is simply demographic activate as much as normal. parts of your brain related to reality. empathy don't activate as much as normal if it's a them. ind india demonstrates how that we've got this gigantic fault diversity could help rescue and strengthen democracy. line in our heads as to who for more, go to counts as an in group member, and read my "washington post" column this week. and let's get started. who evokes empathy, who evokes concern, and who is a them, who just gets us bristling. >> and you talk about how it's ♪ very easy as a result of this dynamic to scapegoat. in a hearing wednesday on you say scapegoating is a kind capitol hill, senator marco of very human response. rubio claimed that saudi crown >> well, one of the more interesting parts of the brain prince mohamed bin salman had that's pertinent to this is an gone full gangster. area called the insla. in the hot seat was president trump's nominee, retired general the insla, if you're a normal mammal, it tells you if you've john abizaid, calling for saudi bitten into some disgusting food. it keeps you from getting
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arabia to be held for the khashoggi killing, but poisoned. and in humans, it does that, but reminded senators of the importance of the u.s./saudi in addition, it also activates relationship. joining me now is ali shahabi, at morally disgusting acts. featured in my special report, saudi arabia, kingdom of at people whose accident actions secrets, founder of the arabia we consider to be disgusting. it gives this tremendous viscera to who we think is appallingly foundation, based in washington. what do you make of this kind of different. and what that winds up meaning rhetoric coming from marco is, we're incredibly easy to rubio, an ally of the president, strong foreign policy senator. it does feel like the mood -- prop beg propagandaize as to them as ma the attitude towards saudi arabia among key republican senators has really changed. >> well, it clearly has. i think what they're all missing is that saudi arabia has had to litt dehumanizing. and basically, if you're some go through a period of wrenching change in the last two years. autocratic tyrant, if you can get there or your followers to wrenching change from above in activate the insular cortex as any society throughout history soon as they contemplate the is extremely dangerous. themselves, and the saudi government has gotten more authoritarian over the last two years, hoping to . >> you know, you've studied this keep the shift together, which all very deeply, but you also
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they have so far succeeded very well, actually. you haven't had street talk about how you've come to demonstrations, you haven't had terrorism. you haven't had any sort of this -- even personally you grew up in a very small, insular popular negative reaction to the tremendous change that's being imposed on them. particularly, you know, empowering women, not just letting them drive, but bringing them fully into the work force. something that was very unpopular with the reactionary community that w jewish kmu jewish community that was right. but -- and change in a very suspicious of the outside world. >> it's one way we're different polarized society, fareed, is very, very dangerous. than your typical chimp or and, yes, so the government has gotten more authoritarian. baboon going after a dichotomy. now, has there been elements of we belong to multiple groups, overreach? certainly. i mean, with the killing of jamal khashoggi, with the thus we have multiple thems in arrests of the women, there has been overreach. and i think the government our heads and who could count as realizes that. a them could change in a second. but, you know, with the speed >> so we kind of embrace the and with everything that's been idea that everybody has multiple done, they have made some identities where we belong to mistakes. some serious mistakes coming along the way. many different groups, that people can't just be put into a but that's what happens when you box. is that right? have change. >> well, the hope is that could >> let me ask you about a be used for good. specific one, which puzzles me, of course, we have no shortage
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which is the case of this u.s. of examples in use for the doctor, fadahi, who we now know was arrested, sent to a regular worst. during the rwandan genocide, two saudi jail, apparently tortured. people who had been neighbors for years, suddenly a neighbor, a classmate, a student, a what strikes me as bizarre, no parishioner, all of those, were charges, no public discussion of it. the trump administration does not seem to be pressing transformed into a them thanks to the propaganda of that. particularly hard. what i'm puzzled by, again, is insofar as we are a smart the brutality, the torture for a species that can juggle lots of regime that used to always categories in our heads at once, describe itself as not being we are species that can be particularly repressive in that terribly vulnerable to sense. why would they do this to an manipulation. i think it's fair to say we are american citizen? why would they do this -- during fairly hardwired into dividing the trump administration, which has given saudi arabia a kind of carte blanche and a huge bear us into the uses and thems, but hug? it seems an insult and rebuke to who counts as an us and who counts as a them could be change an administration, american in a fraction of a second. administration, that's been very >> wow. supportive of them. sobering stuff. >> well, he's a saudi citizen professor sapolsky, a pleasure also. >> holds both passports. having you on. >> i mean, under international >> well, thanks for having me law, you know, when you're a new on.
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and we'll be right back. citizen, when you're -- either country, you're considered a citizen of that country. which any human being can fight and never stop. -- >> the reality of it -- i'm talking about why would you does this sound dismal? disrespect the trump administration by doing this? it isn't. >> well, i don't think they see ♪ ♪ it as such. but, you know, fareed, one of it's the most wonderful life on earth. the structural problems saudi ♪ ♪ arabia has under saudi law, you are not allowed to name and shame, so to speak, somebody when they are arrested or even when they're indicted. ♪ ♪ it's taking over it's the most wonderful life on earth. you're only allowed to do that after a judgment comes out. ♪ there's no escape what happens, though, is you ♪ you better get moving enter the unfortunate situation where you have a lot of people ♪ ready or not who are in jail, and yet nobody ♪ it's about to go down here it comes now ♪ knows why they're in jail. ♪ get ready and i think the saudi government is going to have to change that, ♪ oh oh oh oh ♪ oh oh oh oh do something about that, where they come out with a detailed ♪ get ready ♪ moving charge sheet that says, here is ♪ ready or not ♪ get ready why we have arrested so-and-so. now, you may agree or disagree with it. ♪ oh oh oh oh oh but at least they will have ♪ hey justified why from their morhave discoveredour their irish roots. which means your smiling eyes, might be irish too. perspective they see such
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actions as necessary. now, frankly, there is total order ancestrydna, and find the surprises in you. confusion about him. i don't know much about dr. just $59 through march 18th. get your kit today. fatahi. it seems very unfortunate. but there must be some story ♪ about him that the government has not come out and explained. and they should do that, really. because they're paying a very heavy price. and nobody is giving them any benefit of the doubt. book now and enjoy free unlimited open bar and more. >> the same rumor, reports of norwegian cruise line. feel free. torture, by the way, which are very credible have come out about these women activists who advocated the very lifting of the driving ban that was then instituted. and, again, you know, i'm sure you're going to say it's overreach, but it does feel like saudi arabia is turning into much of more of a kind of traditional, middle eastern authoritarian police state, where these kind of things are routine. >> well, i don't think they're routine. if those -- you know, if that information about the women is correct, it is shocking and has shocked saudi society, also. hi.
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particularly since they're women. >> why isn't the crown prince maria ramirez! doing something that announces, you know, a reform of the system, a cleanup or something to -- it feels to me, at least, mom! maria! like they're somewhat paralyzed right now. they're -- there's all this, you maria ramirez... mcdonald's is committing 150 million dollars know -- in the entire western world, certainly, and some other democratic countries, as well, a in tuition assistance, education, and career advising programs... great deal of anxiety, maybe prof: maria ramirez even hostility towards saudi mom and dad: maria ramirez!!! to help more employees achieve their dreams. arabia, based on these reports that are coming out. khashoggi, the torture. and from saudi arabia, you hear this is charlie not coughing because he took delsym 12-hour. mom and dad: maria ramirez!!! nothing. and this is charlie still not coughing >> of wewell, i mean, you haven while trying his hardest not to wake zeus. heard nothing. you have a lot of senior people who have been removed. delsym 12-hour. you have people who are being tried. you've had an open trial on the nothing lasts longer for powerful cough relief. khashoggi case, where foreign diplomats were invited to attend the trial. but having said that also, there is a sensitivity to behaving like you are just reacting to western pressure. that, you know, there is a flip side to that within the kingdom and within particularly the more conservative communities. we are -- that goes down very
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badly with them. so i think they also have to manage that process to make sure they don't look like they're just jumping whenever, you know, america or europe says jump. >> ali shabby, always a pleasure to have you on. thank you. >> thank you. if you missed my latest special report, i've got good news. saudi arabia, kingdom of secrets, will air tonight at 11:00 p.m. eastern. don't miss it. and next on "gps," from saudi arabia to israel, we'll talk about bibi netanyahu's problems, legal and political, when we come back. is big! now with t-mobile get the samsung galaxy s10e included want more from your entejust say teach me more. into your xfinice remote with unlimited data for just $40 a month. to discover all sorts of tips and tricks in x1. can i find my wifi password? just ask. [ ding ] we really pride ourselves >> ton making it easyautoglass, show me my wifi password. hey now! [ ding ] to get your windshield fixed. you can even troubleshoot, learn new voice commands and much more. >> teacher: let's turn in your science papers. >> tech vo: this teacher always puts her students first. clean my daughter's room. [ ding ] >> student: i did mine on volcanoes. oh, it won't do that. welp, someone should.
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>> teacher: you did?! oh, i can't wait to read it. just say "teach me more" into your voice remote >> tech vo: so when she had auto glass damage... and see how you can have an even better x1 experience. she chose safelite. simple. easy. awesome. with safelite, she could see exactly when we'd be there. >> teacher: you must be pascal. >> tech: yes ma'am. >> tech vo: saving her time... [honk, honk] >> kids: bye! >> tech vo: she can save the science project. >> kids: whoa! >> kids vo: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace ♪ ♪ do you ♪ love me? ♪ ♪ i can really move ♪ with our smartphones in our ♪ do you love me? ♪ i'm in the groove ♪ now do you love me? pockets, most of us can almost always be tracked. ♪ do you love me now that i can dance? ♪ many of us have made peace with applebee's 3 course meal. this technological bargain, but now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. being tracked is not good at all if you are a soldier. we do whatever it takes to fight cancer. these are the specialists we're proud to call our own. it brings me to my question. which nation just passed a law experts from all over the world working closely banning soldiers from using together to deliver truly personalized cancer care. smartphones while on duty? china, turkey, russia or the expert medicine works here. united states? stay tuned and we'll tell you learn more at the correct answer. my book of the week is it [music playing] jerry has a membership to this gym, but he's not using it. and he has subscriptions to a music service he doesn't listen "the third pillar, how markets to and five streaming video services he doesn't watch.
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this is jerry learning that he's still paying for this stuff and the state leave the he's not using. community behind," a book about he's seeing his recurring payments in control tower what's missing in economics in the wells fargo mobile app. today. this is jerry canceling a few things. booyah. there is the community which has been forgotten and needs to be this is jerry appreciating the people who made this possible. rebuilt. this is a very important book which could change our way of oh look, there they are. (team member) this is wells fargo. thinking. now for the "last look." the murder of saudi journalist tremfya® is for adults with remoderate. to severe plaque psoriasis. jamal khashoggi led to much with tremfya®, you can get clearer. and stay clearer. in fact, most patients who saw 90% clearer skin at 28 weeks stayed clearer through 48 weeks. crime. tremfya® works better than humira® at providing clearer skin though the government opposed and more patients were symptom free with tremfya®. such violence, they decided to tremfya® may lower your ability take a clear stand. to fight infections and may increase they made an embargo to the your risk of infections. before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. kingdom, a ban that was first tell your doctor if you have an infection or have symptoms such as: declared in the jamal khashoggi fever, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough. killing. before starting tremfya® tell your doctor if you plan to it is german components used in or have recently received a vaccine. ask your doctor about tremfya®. tremfya®. because you deserve to stay clearer.
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equipment made in countries like janssen wants to help you explore cost support options. france and the u.k. are blocking them from the saudis as well. look at this airplane, for example. though it's british made, one third of its components are german. because of that, a $13 million deal between the u.k. and saudi arabia is now in jeopardy. come hok., babe. these european-made missiles that the saudis want, planned nasty nightime heartburn? try alka-seltzer pm gummies. the only fast, powerful heartburn relief, exports to saudi arabia have also been frozen because they, plus melatonin so you can fall asleep quickly. oh, what a relief it is! too, contain german components. they replacements for german parts, but reuters says this isn't always a possibility. they refuse to deal with the kingdom until the human rights concerns were addressed. the answer to my gps challenge is c. this week's russian president putin signed a law banning soldiers from using smartphones
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during their deployments or even from posting anything on line regarding their military units at all for fear of military secrets falling into foreign hands. the new law follows a series of reports from investigative outed belling cat that used outsourcing of social media to prove the russian troops were in ukraine despite government denials to the contrary. of course, russia is not the only country limiting tech use of its groups. the pentagon has forbidden deployed troops from using such technology including fitness trackers and dating apps that use those tools. finally something the russia and a book that you're ready u.s. military agree on. to share with the world? thank you for being part of get published now, my program this week. call for your free publisher kit i'll see you next week. today! hello, everyone. thank you so much for joining me this sunday. i'm fredricka whitfield. right now we're learning more about a devastating plane crash in ethiopia with no . israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu's political career is on the line in two
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survivors. all 157 people on board, an different ways. first, there are the looming ethiopian airlines flight, were indictments announced by killed when the boeing 737 went israel's attorney general. down shortly after takeoff this he said that mr. netanyahu would be charged with bribery and morning. so how does a brand new airplane breach of trust. flown by a senior pilot with an then there are bibi's political excellent flying record suddenly headaches. mr. netanyahu has publicly courted the support of far, far crash into the ground? we'll talk to an aviation right parties in israel. he's believed to be going to the expert. plus, it's another busy day for the 2020 presidential extremes on his right flank, because he has a formidable ho challenger on his left flank, benny gantz, former israeli army chief. mr. netanyahu faces an uphill battle in next month's election. joining me now from israel, tal schneider, political correspondent for the globe's newspaper. let me ask you, how serious are these charges, and what is the likely course? because we've been hearing about them for a while. but this is it now. this is the formal charge.
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>> obviously, the charges are very grave. bribery is up to ten years in jail. and as you may know, bribery in public officials is a very grave indictment. and netanyahu is up for indictment. obviously, there was another procedure in which he may come to the attorney general and claim, you know, some claims forward. but having said that, the fact that the attorney general has made up his mind and also put the charges on is very, very serious, and it's -- i think it's hurting his situation. it's hurting his campaign. not entirely. but it has an effect on the israeli people. >> mr. hasan, what one looks at this, there have been so many charges about mr. netanyahu and there have been so many accusations of corruption and, you know, some of them he has been cleared of. but there is this swirl of charges about it. is it -- i mean, does the party
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feel this is not worth the controversy? >> no. we believe strongly that this is a political persecution. let's make clear in the numbers, netanyahu since 1997 had to deal with 19 investigations, accusations, allegations. 16 out of 19 of them ended up with nothing. and we truly believe that during the hearing, and these are the processes you have in the hearing before the trial, netanyahu will tear down all those allegations. >> let me ask you, tal schneider, on the political side, you do have benny gantz. seems to be gaining ground. and historically, when one looks at martin indyk pointed out -- when one looks at the prime ministers, they tend only to lose out to popular generals who are able to put together a left of center coalition, which is exactly what benny gantz has done. >> okay.
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so the polls are showing that benny gantz is actually leading on the prime minister. and also he has a good job performance polling that's saying that he has an ability to serve as prime minister. netanyahu hasn't faced anyone that strong for a decade. netanyahu's campaign is claiming they are lefties and weak, and the israeli public, when they see a chief idea, i don't think they take it as someone who can be portrayed as weak or, you know, wimpy or too lefty to liberals. it's not working with the generals. so that is netanyahu's main problem. his campaign slogans are aimed towards the right wing, but his unwilling or he's not even trying to grab some more center israeli population. and he sticks to his right wing, like you mentioned at the beginning. he doesn't even try to convince the center. >> ellie, if the left is looking for generals, bibiis going pretty far right, looking for
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support. he has gone so far right that he has -- he has been denounced by many, many previously strong supporters in the united states. i think even apec has expressed dismay over this latest move. isn't it a sign of a kind of amorality that he will just go anywhere to try and find allies? >> no, not at all. you have to understand that we are quite concerned about the establishment of a left wing government in israel. we wanted to increase the chances in order to win. of course, we respect the criticism of the people, especially from apac, but they have to understand that this is either a right of big government or left wing government. and i want to remind one more thing. we are concerned about left wing government that will be supported by those who support terrorism. and that is the equation for us. >> all right. we will surely come back to the issue. thank you both. >> thank you.
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>> thank you. next on "gps," angry protesters out on the streets in capitals around the middle east. is arab spring 2.0 coming on? we'll explore when we come back. ♪ ♪ there's no escape ♪ you better get moving ♪ ready or not ♪ it's about to go down here it comes now ♪ ♪ get ready ♪ oh oh oh oh ♪ oh oh oh oh ♪ get ready ♪ moving ♪ ready or not ♪ get ready ♪ oh oh oh oh oh ♪ hey in the transportation industry without knowing firsthandness
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now for our "what in the world" segment. masses of young people have flooded the streets of algiers to protest the regime of an aging president who despite having had a stroke in 2013 is seeking his fifth term in office. the tensions in algeria are not isolated. they symbolize the problems. algeria's president is so ill, the times notes, his framed photo replaces his actual presence at most government rallies. that is an apt metaphor for his rule, little more than a front for the cabal of generals and politicians that reels power behind the scenes. in marked contrast to their leader, over two-thirds of
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algeri algeria's people are under 30 and have a right to be angry. the figure rises for college graduates, according to bloomberg. as was pointed out, the dynamics extend throughout the region. there are mass protests that threaten to topple the brutal regime. the tunisia president is 92. the palestinian president is 83. egypt's sisi is a spritely 64, but muscled through parliament a constitutional amendment that could keep him in power until 2034, at which point he will be 80 years old. even when the leaders themselves are not long in the tooth, their regimes are still relics, often brutal and woefully out of sync with the people they serve. and those people are overwhelmingly young. the median age across the region
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is just 24. in the early otts, the middle east had the highest proportion of young people in the world. even now, there are isolated baby booms. iraq is growing by 1 million people a year, and almost 40% of its population is 14 and under, according to the ft. but all these young people are coming of age in economies that seem to have no place for them. as a region, the middle east and north africa has the highest rate of youth unemployment in the world, estimated around 25%, according to the imf. and the u.n. notes that by 2030, the region's work force will have 39 million more young people to absorb. those who can, are leaving, excluding the wealthy gulf country's net migration, 8.4 million between 2000 and 2015, according to brookings. what's driving the dynamics? when oil prices fell, government
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was forced to rein in spending and cut jobs in the public sector. as mark lynch notes in the "washington post," in the past two years, sporadic protests often sparked by some economic malaise have broken out from algeria to iran, morocco to iraq. so with all this, i'll ask the inevitable question, are we seeing the next arab spring? it's far too early to say, but if we were to see massive protests, it would be a mistake to assume that would translate to full-fledged democracy. around the world, autocrats do tend to win acquiescence from their people, as long as they deliver prosperity. but most arab leaders provide no democracy, no growth, no social mobility, nothing. and with lots of young people, especially young men, angry their lives are not improving, this is a dam that could one day burst. next on "gps," tick tock do you hear the sound, prime minister may?
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the clock is ticking louder and louder. the brexit deadline is almost here and the british parliament holds a key vote on tuesday. what will happen, when we come back. to look at me now, you don't see psoriasis. you see clear skin. you see me. but if you saw me before cosentyx... ♪ i was covered. it was awful. but i didn't give up. i kept fighting. i got clear skin with cosentyx. 3 years and counting. clear skin can last.
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that's what it takes, baby. geico®. great service from licensed agents, 24/7. on tuesday, the british parliament will vote on prime minister may's brexit plan. if it feels like that has already happened, well, it did. two months ago, and the vote was strongly against her plan. but she went back to the drawing board. more importantly, perhaps, there is a huge deadline looming, just 19 days away. march 29th is when britain is set to leave the union. so what happens on tuesday? joining me are two sharp observers, george osborne, chancellor of britain's finance minister and ann applebaum, a pulitzer-prize winning historian. ann, when people look back and ask why did britain go down this
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bizarre path, what seems to many people to be a bizarre path, you know, when you write a history of this 20 years from now, what will you say? what is the explanation here? >> well, if you want the meta explanation for why brexit has -- seems to have completely crashed the british political system, i think you need to look really carefully at the torrey party. this was a party that was really one of the most important leading political forces in the world. through the 1980s, even the 1990s. and yet in the last several years, it's experienced something like a crisis of confidence, where is it going, what's it for, is it just a technocratic party. and i think brexit looked to a lot of people in the party like an opportunity to be once again radical, and to once again cutting-edge. unfortunately, they weren't really prepared intellectually or in any other way.
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the country wasn't prepared bureaucratically to carry this out. and so what you have is a paralysis, which is really extraordinary. the country -- spanish politicians said to me a couple of days ago, you know, this was the country we looked up to. this was -- you know, this is the country that is the mother of parliaments, the most competent politicians. people who knew what they were doing. and suddenly they seem really unable to move beyond this vote that, as you say, we have now had once. we're going to have it again. we may have it a third time before we're done. >> george osborne, you were at the center of that crisis that anne applebaum describes with the tory party, your prime minister decided against holding a referendum. is anne's critique correct? my amplification of it would be probably you were dealing with the reality that tony blair had moved the labor party away from a kind of hard left socialism, taking over some of the center ground that ttories used to hav
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so they had to find some place to go that was sharp, rad dahl, different, so it didn't feel like there was this mushy middle between tony blair and david cameron's centerism. >> well, i would add to what anne says, and your characterization, fareed, by making a couple of observations. first of all, britain is an island off the continent of europe, whose entire history has been defined around this question of our relationship with our near neighbors. and second, like many other western democracies at the moment, we are wrestling with that question of some sovereignty and control versus globalization and collective global action, which, of course, rages as a debate in the united states. and in having a referendum, we enabled a group to emerge, as you said, look, if we're in control of our laws and in control of our borders, we can stop immigrants coming in and
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britain can be economically stronger. the reverse is the case. britain is already economically weaker, and we haven't left yet. and i think what you're seeing over the next few days is, again, that promise of brexit colliding with the reality of brexit. and when faced with that, either you compromise and accept that you told the british people a set of things that were not deliverable, or you go on refusing to do that, and the kind of political crisis continues. and i would say the political crisis continuing is the most likely option. there are other options. and the most likely outcome of all these votes that we're about to have in the british parliament is once again to delay. it's not heroic. but it's the one thing that most people can agree on. >> anne applebaum, do you agree with that? it seems to me theresa may is playing a game of chicken, saying i'm going to take you as close as we can get to the
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deadline, and then you face two options. either we just plunge off this cliff or you accept my muddled, negotiated soft brexit. >> yes. i think the trouble is that there are a lot of people who have now talked themselves into believing it would be better to plunge off the cliff. and we've had a very odd -- politics in the last few weeks have been very odd, where at one point the government was saying, well, you know, no deal is better than a bad deal. and now they've quickly reversed and said no, actually, we want to avoid no deal at all costs. and i'm told people in the government are briefing senior business people in london and telling them don't worry, we're going to avoid doing that. so, you know, it's an even weirder story. you know, in which they put forward one policy. they back pedal as they discover it doesn't work. they put forward another one. and then change that. there's still no clear plan. we still don't really know what theresa may will do. will she let the country slide towards no deal, although it's
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been promised otherwise? or will she try to prevent it? i mean, it's not so much a game of chicken. it's kind of flailing, trying one plan, trying another plan, just to see if anything can stick. >> george, it seemed until maybe very recently that there were healt healthy majorities in the british parliament against everything. that is to say, against a hard brexit, against a soft brexit. and against a second referendum. is -- you know, are the odds of a second referendum creeping up? is it possible with labor party now saying they're in favor of it? that you could have the thing that tony blair has been advocating from the start, which is to say to the british people, look, you've now had a chance to really think about this. do you really want it? >> i think, as i say, before we get to that point, if we get to it, the thing that most people are going to agree on is let's put off this difficult question. i mean, for many years, as the
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country's finance minister, i saw the greek euro crisis firsthand, and i was in plenty of meetings where i felt we have to reach a decision and then the decision at 3:00 in the morning is, let's meet again in six months' time. so although it is the legally mandated position in the law of this country and in the international treaty with the eu that we leave in three weeks' time, which is what's causing a lot of disturbance, obviously, amongst the businesses of this country, as they have to plan for that contingency, the only way to stop it is to find a majority for something else. there is a majority for something else. it's not clear what. and that's why i think people will coalesce around the delay option. because those who either want a second referendum, those who want a softer form of brexit, or norway-style brexit, they're all going to find that the one thing they all agree on is that a delay would suit their cause. and that's why i think a delay opens up -- personally, i don't think it's a bad thing.
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i think allowing the country to continue to consider the biggest question it's faced probably since the second world war is a good thing. clearly, there is not a majority in this country for any one clear course of action. and so that is what i think is most likely to come out of next week. i would make one other observation. if you're a fan of william shakespeare, this is also about power and the crown is on the ground. the prime minister is not going to fight the next election for her party. everyone is pretty clear, she's going to go this year. so people's positions in this debate are also dictated by where they think they're going to be in a future contest for the crown, for the leadership of the conservative party, and what that means at the moment is the leadership of the country. >> fascinating ongoing conversation. i'm sure we will have you guys on to explain the next twist in this saga. thank you both. up next, brexit was spurred on, at least in large part, by a fear of others. donald trump makes a lot of
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political hate by stirring up the fear of others. why is it that this us versus them construct is so powerful? my next guest, a stanford professor, says it is hardwired into our brains. a fascinating conversation when we come back. too long. ♪ ♪ now i'm wondering if your loves still strong. ♪ ♪ ooo baby, here i am, signed, sealed, delivered, i'm yours ♪ applebee's 3 course meal now that's eatin' good
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